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Accenture(ATS) v IBM (Computer graduate position)

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  • 12-04-2008 6:47pm
    #1
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭


    Ok, I'd say this question has been asked numerous times but mine is more specific:

    Of course every person's thinking is different in one way or another but ultimately I hope my job is
    1. Well paid
    2. Diverse (more development than testing)
    3. Open to promotion
    4. Provides a decent social life
    I'm not concerned with working hard at this stage because you have work hard to do well.

    Taking into account all I've mentioned what are the pros and cons of each job? To me IBM seems more relaxed, on the other hand Accenture seems to provide a better stepping stone into a variety of areas. Any input appreciated.


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    #2
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭cronos


    rwcFM wrote: »
    Ok, I'd say this question has been asked numerous times but mine is more specific:

    Of course every person's thinking is different in one way or another but ultimately I hope my job is
    1. Well paid
    2. Diverse (more development than testing)
    3. Open to promotion
    4. Provides a decent social life
    I'm not concerned with working hard at this stage because you have work hard to do well.

    Taking into account all I've mentioned what are the pros and cons of each job? To me IBM seems more relaxed, on the other hand Accenture seems to provide a better stepping stone into a variety of areas. Any input appreciated.

    Have you been offered both jobs?


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    #3
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    cronos wrote: »
    Have you been offered both jobs?

    Yes. I have to decide this week.


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    #4
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭cronos


    Have you not been told the pay? Major difference is that with accenture you will have more exposure to multiple projects and i think they send you to the US for the first month to train depending on the job. In IBM you would prob be on the same project for a while. But being on the same project for a long time has its advantages also. I would imagine that IBM would be the most focused on development with accenture being more of a mix between business and development. But I havent worked for either. I do however have a grad job with another major IT consultancy in dublin.


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    #5
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    cronos wrote: »
    Have you not been told the pay?

    I have but I'm thinking more in the long term. They pay around the same at the moment.
    cronos wrote: »
    Major difference is that with accenture you will have more exposure to multiple projects and i think they send you to the US for the first month to train depending on the job. In IBM you would prob be on the same project for a while. But being on the same project for a long time has its advantages also. I would imagine that IBM would be the most focused on development with accenture being more of a mix between business and development. But I havent worked for either. I do however have a grad job with another major IT consultancy in dublin.

    The job at Accenture is in the ATS section, which deals with IT and the like. This means that I won't get a month's training, however I might get some introductory courses.

    I get what you're saying about exposure to many projects at Accenture but I don't want to be in a situation where I'm solely testing 24/7. In the long run is a business/development mix more rewarding?


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    #6
    440Hz
    Registered Users Posts: 6,424 ✭✭✭440Hz


    Where do you want to go next?

    I'd imagine you would leave Accenture with a much more rounded business acument than with IBM, however I reckon IBM will give you IT experience that will open up doors everywhere. For me, if they are closely matched, I'd go with IBM. I have worked on placement for Accenture and you really sell your soul. Unless you wanna be the top business/analyst consultant it the world, id stick to IBM, have a bit of a life, and let the doors open up all around you. Thats just me anyway.


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    #7
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭cronos


    rwcFM wrote: »
    Ok, I'd say this question has been asked numerous times but mine is more specific:

    Of course every person's thinking is different in one way or another but ultimately I hope my job is
    1. Well paid
    2. Diverse (more development than testing)
    3. Open to promotion
    4. Provides a decent social life
    I'm not concerned with working hard at this stage because you have work hard to do well.

    Taking into account all I've mentioned what are the pros and cons of each job? To me IBM seems more relaxed, on the other hand Accenture seems to provide a better stepping stone into a variety of areas. Any input appreciated.

    I think anyone who does the Extreme Blue internship with IBM is always going to get promoted before someone they take on as a normal grad. So they will be your competition depending on which part of IBM your going to.


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    #8
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    440Hz wrote: »
    Where do you want to go next?

    I'm a bit undecided as to where I want to go. Ideally, like everyone else, I want to be working somewhere that pays well and is somewhat enjoyable. Whether that be in IT or business I don't know but obviously coming from an IT background I would be least comfortable in business. Then again I could really like the changing environment at Accenture.

    Does anyone with graduate experience with either company have any information?


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    #9
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    rwcFM wrote: »
    Provides a decent social life

    Do you mean social life within the job or enough time off to be able to socialise a lot in your free time?


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    #10
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    nesf wrote: »
    Do you mean social life within the job or enough time off to be able to socialise a lot in your free time?

    Within the job. Somewhere where there is a bit of banter and people of similar age. Always helps enjoy your work.


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    #11
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    rwcFM wrote: »
    Within the job. Somewhere where there is a bit of banter and people of similar age. Always helps enjoy your work.

    Yeah, it's important to realise that your "outside social time" can disappear when deadlines loom etc. I don't know enough about either firm's graduate programs to help you choose but I have heard good things about both, so congratulations on the "nice" decision. ;)


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    #12
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    I know people working in both organisations at various levels.

    IBM tends to be a bit insular and stuffy.

    Accenture can be quite cut-throat at certain levels, but you'd have a greater exposure to different technologies and clients.

    I'd choose Accenture if I was very career focused and ambitious. They also still have a bit of a cache having been part of Andersons once upon a time.


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    #13
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭cronos


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    I know people working in both organisations at various levels.

    IBM tends to be a bit insular and stuffy.

    Accenture can be quite cut-throat at certain levels, but you'd have a greater exposure to different technologies and clients.

    I'd choose Accenture if I was very career focused and ambitious. They also still have a bit of a cache having been part of Andersons once upon a time.

    From what I know they werent part of andersons, they were andersons. The company name just changed


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    #14
    mcic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭mcic


    cronos wrote: »
    From what I know they werent part of andersons, they were andersons. The company name just changed

    Arthur Andersen was originally one of the US Big5, but split up in the 1980s, with Arthur Andersen (the accountancy side) and Andersen Consulting (the consulting side) becoming separate parts of Andersen Worldwide. It was only about 8/9 years ago that they changed the name from Andersen Consulting to Accenture (around the time of the Enron scandal, which Arthur Andersen was linked to). So, yeah, they're basically the same company.


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    #15
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    nesf wrote: »
    Yeah, it's important to realise that your "outside social time" can disappear when deadlines loom etc. I don't know enough about either firm's graduate programs to help you choose but I have heard good things about both, so congratulations on the "nice" decision. ;)

    As I've said, I've no problems working hard to meet deadlines etc.

    What's putting me off Accenture is that if I were to change jobs to another part of IT, I may find it much harder than coming from IBM.


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    #16
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    IBM tends to be a bit insular and stuffy.

    Accenture can be quite cut-throat at certain levels, but you'd have a greater exposure to different technologies and clients.

    Can you explain this? Talking to people in IBM, they seem happy with the environment etc.
    DublinWriter wrote: »
    I'd choose Accenture if I was very career focused and ambitious. They also still have a bit of a cache having been part of Andersons once upon a time.

    Do you not think that a career at IBM could be as/more successful as one at Accenture?


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    #17
    fret_wimp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭fret_wimp


    all multinationals are cutthroat and you have to work harder and harder the further up the ladder you go.

    I got my first job from college with accenture, stayed 18 months and it gave me a great platform for my 2nd job which im now in.

    you have to become a certain person in Accenture to keep moving up though, a little ruthlessness helps you a lot and many of the managers dont look on accenture as a company but as a part of them. because of this they can be quite nasty when you decide to leave as they just dont understand why you would want to leave. i had such an expiriece with them.

    Also, remember wth accenture, your not just working with accenture, your possibly working wherever they place you( as they are basically an outsouring company) so if they place you somewhere cool then youl get great expirience but the opposite is possible also. if a contract finishes you can be moved also to a new project with very little notice, and you have no control over the company you will be put working for next.

    With IBM , you know where your gona work from day one.

    Its up to you at the end of the day to weigh up pros and cons of both. I recommend accenture as they gave me good expirience as I was placed in a nice company by them, but again this may not always happen. best of luck


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    #18
    colm_r
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭colm_r


    rwcFM - do you know which part of IBM you will be working in?

    Most comments seem to assume that you will be working in the software development side of IBM, but there is also the consulting/business services side..

    If it's the software development side of things then it would seem like your choice is more product development vs business solutions development.


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    #19
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    colm_r wrote: »
    rwcFM - do you know which part of IBM you will be working in?

    Most comments seem to assume that you will be working in the software development side of IBM, but there is also the consulting/business services side..

    If it's the software development side of things then it would seem like your choice is more product development vs business solutions development.

    I'll be working in software development in IBM. At Accenture I'd probably be working through the lifecycle of a project, which could include a lot of testing.

    On the matter of "product development vs business solutions development", which of them is more enjoyable and rewarding?


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    #20
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    It's worth noting that if you're going with ATS you're not a typical Accenture consultant. You won't really deal too much directly with the client - that's generally done by the consultants. Instead you'll be working on implementing a technology solution. Starting off you'll be working from specifications drawn up by others and there will be a reasonable rigidity to them. As time progresses, you'll be working more on drawing up solutions to client requirements and specifications drawn up by other Accenture staff. Depending on the size of the project, you'll have some degree of scope there.

    Have you any further detail on the project you're working on? You could be working with Java, but it could also be COBOL or into testing/support. There is room to move beyond your initial assignment, but it's worth checking out on. Even if you develop the software, you'd be expected to at least understand the test criteria, although if it's a large project there may be dedicated testing teams. It's no harm in learning how to test code after it's written though as part of the life cycle.

    Socially the company is good and there are often events to attend if you want free booze. Can't criticize them for that - I don't believe IBM is anywhere near as good from talking to friends working there.


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    #21
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    ixoy wrote: »

    Have you any further detail on the project you're working on? You could be working with Java, but it could also be COBOL or into testing/support. There is room to move beyond your initial assignment, but it's worth checking out on. Even if you develop the software, you'd be expected to at least understand the test criteria, although if it's a large project there may be dedicated testing teams. It's no harm in learning how to test code after it's written though as part of the life cycle.

    Socially the company is good and there are often events to attend if you want free booze. Can't criticize them for that - I don't believe IBM is anywhere near as good from talking to friends working there.

    I've no real information as to where I'd be working, although I was told that it would more than likely be in conjunction with the public sector. I haven't big issues with testing but ideally I prefer a more development focused job. Though as you said, learning the life cycle of a project can be interesting.

    I heard the social life is good at Accenture but do they treat the ATS section separately?


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    #22
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    rwcFM wrote: »
    I heard the social life is good at Accenture but do they treat the ATS section separately?
    Nope. ATS have their own events and, if anything, they seem to get the most free meals and drinks of them all (least where I am!) You shouldn't lack for that sort of stuff.


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    #23
    AlexD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭AlexD


    mcic wrote: »
    Arthur Andersen was originally one of the US Big5, but split up in the 1980s, with Arthur Andersen (the accountancy side) and Andersen Consulting (the consulting side) becoming separate parts of Andersen Worldwide. It was only about 8/9 years ago that they changed the name from Andersen Consulting to Accenture (around the time of the Enron scandal, which Arthur Andersen was linked to). So, yeah, they're basically the same company.

    The split happened before the Enron scandal happened and was for different reasons, it's a different company now.


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    #24
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    ixoy wrote: »
    Nope. ATS have their own events and, if anything, they seem to get the most free meals and drinks of them all (least where I am!) You shouldn't lack for that sort of stuff.

    That's a good thing anyway. What is the bonus scheme like? It seems pretty rewarding.


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    #25
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    I know this thread is a few weeks old but I just wanted to ask another question on the matter.

    A friend from my course has been offered a consulting role at Accenture, starting at 33k. My development job would be 28k plus bonuses. On top of this he gets 4 weeks to piss about in Chicago and London. I don't get any of this. The only problem I have is will Accenture treat us on a different playing field for the rest of our careers? The only reason I couldn't apply for that job was due to my Leaving cert points but academically, we are both equal at college.

    The last thing I want is to be a step behind everyone else solely because of an exam I did four years ago, when I wasn't a quarter as determined as I am now. Will I even be in competition with graduates from the consulting side of things?


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    #26
    fret_wimp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 240 ✭✭fret_wimp


    rwcFM wrote: »
    will Accenture treat us on a different playing field for the rest of our careers?

    yes you will be treated differently for the entire length of your career. Accenture have a few career models internally, one for consultants, which is move up or move out model. this means you have to move up and improve each year or you will have to leave. sounds harsh but thats the way it is.

    For standard full time employees its moer of a pyramid model. you work your way up and you could spend years at a particular level.

    Contractors are treated just as contractors.

    sounds like your in a full time developer position in Accenture, possibly in the services area. but seriously dude, your at the start of your career and i garuntee you wont spend much of it in Accenture. gain expirience and move on and up after a coupple of years under your belt. use the job to better yourself and dont compare yourself to your friends at this early stafe ( or ever) . if you enjoy your job, so what if your mate makes a few K more than you. job satisfaction is much more important.


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    #27
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    fret_wimp wrote: »
    yes you will be treated differently for the entire length of your career. Accenture have a few career models internally, one for consultants, which is move up or move out model. this means you have to move up and improve each year or you will have to leave. sounds harsh but thats the way it is.

    Sounds harsh alright but at least they take interest in your work.
    fret_wimp wrote: »
    sounds like your in a full time developer position in Accenture, possibly in the services area. but seriously dude, your at the start of your career and i garuntee you wont spend much of it in Accenture. gain expirience and move on and up after a coupple of years under your belt. use the job to better yourself and dont compare yourself to your friends at this early stafe ( or ever) . if you enjoy your job, so what if your mate makes a few K more than you. job satisfaction is much more important.

    No, I couldn't give a toss what my mate earns, I was just using him as an example. I know eventually I'll make more than him ;). If they are willing to give the consultants 5k more and a holiday at the start, how will they be treating us throughout our careers? Will they treat us like shít I suppose is what I'm getting at?


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    #28
    OmegaRed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭OmegaRed


    ixoy wrote: »
    Nope. ATS have their own events and, if anything, they seem to get the most free meals and drinks of them all (least where I am!) You shouldn't lack for that sort of stuff.

    Ixoy, you work for Accenture in Dublin? in GCS?


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    #29
    cronos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,717 ✭✭✭cronos


    rwcFM wrote: »
    Sounds harsh alright but at least they take interest in your work.



    No, I couldn't give a toss what my mate earns, I was just using him as an example. I know eventually I'll make more than him ;). If they are willing to give the consultants 5k more and a holiday at the start, how will they be treating us throughout our careers? Will they treat us like shít I suppose is what I'm getting at?

    I doubt its a holiday. You just dont need the same training. If it was cheaper to do the training in ireland then they would. I dont think its really meant as a perk. Also I think consultants have to do allot more travel than a developer. So lets say you finish work in accenture at 5 o clock you would prob be home by half 5. But if he finishes at a client site at 5 o'clock somewhere down the country he might not be home till 8 or 9.

    The extra money is instead of dealing with the hassle of tracking overtime. Plus I bet its cheaper than overtime too.

    Thats just a guess though.


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    #30
    useless
    Registered Users Posts: 755 ✭✭✭useless


    The Accenture training is pretty much a holiday.

    As for the travel- it's more likely to be abroad rather than 'outside Dublin'. Very little of Accenture's work in Ireland is done outside of Dublin. If you're travelling, you'll work longer days to compensate for the fact that you dont get to the client before 10/11 on a Monday and have to leave mid-afternoon on Friday. Whats more likely is that you'll end up working side by side with consultants, often doing the same kind of work. ATS generally don't travel, although that's not absolute.
    Personally I think the ATS grads get a raw deal compared to the consultants. The work a consulting analyst does generally isnt all that different, and is often easier. I've no idea why the company applies this ridiculous rule about Leaving Cert points either.


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    #31
    rwcFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭rwcFM


    useless wrote: »

    Personally I think the ATS grads get a raw deal compared to the consultants. The work a consulting analyst does generally isnt all that different, and is often easier. I've no idea why the company applies this ridiculous rule about Leaving Cert points either.


    Yes, see this is what I was trying to get at. I can get over the holiday side of things and the 5k but how long do they keep consultants at a higher level, or is that just always the way it will be at Accenture? As well as that, I would of though my role would be more development based whilst theirs would be client, specification based?


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