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Another thread about bots. :)

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  • 27-05-2006 3:59pm
    #1
    NickyOD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭


    Check out this thread from 2+2. Interesting reading for any of you who, like me play a lot of SnGs on Party. Substantial evidence has been gathered about a team of bots playing with a 45% ITM rate at the $20 and $30 levels which wouldn't be good enough to profit from $50 and above but still its impressive. What really pisses me off is Party's pathetic response to this AND the fact that other sites have overcome this problem with graphic randoisation which inhibits the less advanced bots like these from reading the cards.

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5381006&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1


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    #2
    ChipLdr
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭ChipLdr


    Excellent read. What started out as ppl accusing the guy of losing his mind turned into a whole community uncovering what looks like a definite Bot team.

    It's wierd the feeling i got from reading this article. I actually felt angry,disgusted and upset that this practice is possibly widespread throughout the online poker community.

    It's true that wherever there is money involved there'll always be someone being greedy and dishonest. Bots are usually a subject that i wouldnt bat an eyelid to but after reading this article it does seem that they are becoming a lot more widespread.

    PP's attitude to the whole situation is unbelievable.The biggest online poker site is setting a terrible example and is doing very little to protect the integrity of online poker with its pityful responses.

    I just have one question. If a person uncovers a bot is it possible for the player to adjust their strategy so that they will win BIG from the bot or are bots programmed to avoid "gambling" in the true sense of the word.


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    #3
    jtsuited
    Registered Users Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭jtsuited


    i can safely say that i will never play on party again after seeing their ridiculous responses in that thread. I know they're a massive company but it's just ridiculous. Don't care how many fish are on that site, i could not contribute rake to such an ignorant bunch of idiots.


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    #4
    White Knight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭White Knight


    I agree that their customer service in general is quite poor. In this case it took 2 and a half months to do ANYTHING about it. I remember playing with these players now that the names are listed - obviously my reads were bad on 'em :p


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    #5
    NickyOD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    What really bugs me is I have seen some of these traits in my $100 SnGs, particularly the 90% all in move. I'm going through my Pokertacker hand histories right now.


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    #6
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Very interesting. I guess bots can play 24/7 and profit from the elementary mistakes caused by fatigue. My favourite game on PokerStars is the $20 Sit & Go which according to the thread is their favourite location.

    I was inspired enough to put $50 in my account and go bot hunting. My form is to win, then lose from playing too much due to tiredness.

    The usual result in the first game (see below). No bots on the table. They all chatted and played normally.

    Does anyone know if they have been eliminated / accounts closed?

    PokerStars Tournament #25467246, No Limit Hold'em
    Buy-In: $20.00/$2.00
    9 players
    Total Prize Pool: $180.00
    Tournament started - 2006/05/27 - 15:39:09 (ET)

    Dear kincsem,

    You finished the tournament in 1st place.
    A $90.00 award has been credited to your Real Money account.


    Congratulations!
    Thank you for participating.

    I'm quitting now before I get creamed by a bot.
    .
    .
    Nicky,
    Sorry I didn't realise it was PartyPoker. I get confused when people say Party; Stars; CL; UTG; and all that stuff.


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    #7
    NickyOD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    kincsem wrote:
    Very interesting. I guess bots can play 24/7 and profit from the elementary mistakes caused by fatigue. My favourite game on PokerStars is the $20 Sit & Go which according to the thread is their favourite location.

    I was inspired enough to put $50 in my account and go bot hunting. My form is to win, then lose from playing too much due to tiredness.

    The usual result in the first game (see below). No bots on the table. They all chatted and played normally

    I thought the bots couldn't read the cards on pokerstars?


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    #8
    Mr. Flibble
    Registered Users Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭Mr. Flibble


    Thats very interesting reading. Does anyone know a reporter working for any of the poker/gambling magazines? It would make a great for article and may even induce PP to get off ther asses.

    Somewhat conversly :rolleyes: if you are reading sikes, I would defo do something similar for a CS project if I had the opportunity.


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    #9
    Lafortezza
    Registered Users Posts: 8,806 ✭✭✭Lafortezza


    I think it's better that stories like these don't get out to the wider unknowledgable public. The amount of damage that "online poker is rigged and full of bots" would do to the stream of fish joining online poker is huge. No problems with the current clued-in poker community getting all riled up though.


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    #10
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    NickyOD wrote:
    I thought the bots couldn't read the cards on pokerstars?

    Hasn't anyone used Calculatem Pro? I'm not recommending it but it can read the cards as they appear on almost all sites. So I would assume bots could do the same.


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    #11
    DeadParrot
    Registered Users Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭DeadParrot


    musician wrote:
    Hasn't anyone used Calculatem Pro? I'm not recommending it but it can read the cards as they appear on almost all sites. So I would assume bots could do the same.

    got it a while back
    absoloute rubbish


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    #12
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Yep it's pretty crap but as I said it's an example of what can be done.


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    #13
    gamblingIRE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭gamblingIRE


    calculate em is a bit crap - I just got pokeroffice 2006 for free - I like it.. Doesnt work with boss skins though :-s

    I have tracker too but haven't bothered with it yet..


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    #14
    Ste05
    Registered Users Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    What's Poker Office like?

    Is there anything it can do that PT can't? Or anything it does better?

    P.S. Sorry for the Hi-Jack Nicky. Send me a PM gamblingIRE if you want


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    #15
    El Stuntman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    EXECUTE CODE>>

    //terminate Bot discussion/deal NO'D 27o

    STOP<<


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    #16
    Drakar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Drakar


    One of the calculators I used when learning offered an SDK which made the cards available to you which you could use to display graphs of how good they were etc. It was (and allegedly is) still approved by the major sites. It would be trivial for a bot to use this info.


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    #17
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Ste05 wrote:
    What's Poker Office like?

    Is there anything it can do that PT can't? Or anything it does better?

    P.S. Sorry for the Hi-Jack Nicky. Send me a PM gamblingIRE if you want

    Basically it will record your hands as you play as long as the site is visible on your screen, doesn't suit me. It then saves the hands in it's database a la PT and will provide real time stats on your opponents etc. as you play as well as odds etc. I only tried it out for a while. I had signed up to Noble poker where you needed to reach 800 noble whatevers to get Poker Office free (play a certain amount of raked hands). Hated Noble so much I stopped trying to reach the target.


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    #18
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    I posted this thread last year:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=288971

    after a run-in with a possible bot. At the time I accepted Stars' explanation, but seeing Party's blatent brush offs of the 2+2ers 1st couple of attempts to get something done, I am now much more dispondent regarding the online poker rooms' efforts to truly protect their players and the integrity of their games.

    I'm going to close my Party account after I complete a stupid low-limit cash game challenge I've set for myself there.


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    #19
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    Interesting looking back at that Paul. As an alibi almost they said he had his chat revoked which made me think it would be pretty sraight-forward to have a bot spout absolute filth until it got it's chat banned. This is a good cover for all future activity.


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    #20
    Hitchhiker's Guide to...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Hitchhiker's Guide to...


    its hardly a ringing endorsement of poker players if they can't beat a computer bot ... surely the human mind is infinitely better than the powers of a calculator?


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    #21
    NickyOD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    Roundtower2 wrote:
    its hardly a ringing endorsement of poker players if they can't beat a computer bot ... surely the human mind is infinitely better than the powers of a calculator?

    Are you serious? I know many human beings who don't know how to zip ther trousers up, take a shower or even speak english even though it is their first language and they all play poker. Put those human beings in front of a computer playing poker and you're better off with a monkey pressing a mousepad. The bot laughs all the way to the bank. :)


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    #22
    strewelpeter
    Registered Users Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭strewelpeter


    Roundtower2 wrote:
    its hardly a ringing endorsement of poker players if they can't beat a computer bot ... surely the human mind is infinitely better than the powers of a calculator?

    You'd think so but have no doubt that that is the greatest fallacy of them all.
    Poker is a game that is mostly about information and a little bit about imagination..and computers are a lot better at getting and using information than we are.
    One of the great pioneers of computing, Edsger Dijkstra when asked if he thought that computers would ever think answered with the question: Can Submarines swim?
    So yea, computers will never have the subtelty or finesse of a good poker player, but they will be able to grind out effective results for hour after neverending hour...if they are let.

    Limit is almost trivially easy for a well designed program.
    NLH is a genuine challenge to the AI community. A really good NLH bot is something that could be done but would take an enormous investment of time and money. If the profit is there to be made it will happen, if there isn't it won't... that is up to the sites to seriously act to stop them.
    But as you say just look at their figures from that 2+2 and it seems all you have to do is be a pushbot to win these games! Extraordinary....I think I'll sign up there.

    The important point about the bots that are in use now, and probably about all the ones we will see in the next few years, is that once you know it is a bot you are playing then they become very simple to beat.

    What I believe will happen is that the bot business model will evolve towards producing tools for slimebags who aren't able to play themselves but will take every bit of 'assistance' they can get. That will allow cheats to prosper and make the game almost unplayable online.


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    #23
    FastMachine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭FastMachine


    I wouldn't say it would be overly hard to program a bot to beat NL up to 1/2.


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    #24
    Spiritus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 275 ✭✭Spiritus


    NickyOD wrote:
    ...I know many human beings who don't know how to zip ther trousers up, take a shower or even speak english even though it is their first language ...


    Ok I'll say what everyone is thinking..HOW do you know this?


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    #25
    Doc Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,882 ✭✭✭Doc Farrell


    thats why they wear tracksuit bottoms. it's not just for the classy look!
    miaow.


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    #26
    califano
    Registered Users Posts: 5,440 ✭✭✭califano


    Spiritus wrote:
    Ok I'll say what everyone is thinking..HOW do you know this?

    Because Limerick is still working on getting running water and the hedge schools there arent what they used be!.
    Frank McCourt still wont come home!


    Only Jopkeing!


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