Re Paternal Obligations

milkyman · 01-04-2006 12:40am #1

Hypothetical question

What are the fathers obligations arising from a one night stand that results in a kid

-is child support a legal obligation in this case?

-secondly, is the onus on the mother to prove paternity

Just wondering

Was nearly in this situation recently, thank god it didnt happen but taught me to be more careful in future! ha ha

Eru · 01-04-2006 9:56am

milkyman wrote:

What are the fathers obligations arising from a one night stand that results in a kid

-is child support a legal obligation in this case?

Yes.

milkyman wrote:

-secondly, is the onus on the mother to prove paternity

Common sense says yes but legally I dont know.

I have a kid but not from a one night stand and have only ever doubted Im her father after watching Ricky Lake

The annoying part is your legally responsible but have no legal access or prantal rights. Also, if you pay up straight to the mother because your an honest guy that want to be a father but the mother doesnt declare this amount to the social your now officially a dead beat dad. :eek:

padser · 01-04-2006 11:33am

milkyman wrote:

-is child support a legal obligation in this case?

I had thought there was no legislation on this in Ireland yet but it was just a feeling. Probably wrong.

milkyman wrote:

-secondly, is the onus on the mother to prove paternity

Well if there was an obligation on you to pay child support and you said you were not the father, then logically the mother would have to prove paternity. Would you be forced to give a DNA sample??

milkyman wrote:

Was nearly in this situation recently, thank god it didnt happen but taught me to be more careful in future! ha ha

If your going to be silly, wrap up your willy!!

01-04-2006 10:33pm

If you father a child, it doesn't matter whether its a one night stand or not. How the child is conceived doesn't come into it. If you dip you wick, you must pay for the oil. In Ireland, you are legally obliged to maintain any child you father financially. Yes, the onus is on the mother to prove paternity, but if she applies to the Courts for maintenance for her child, and you dispute paternity, the Courts will automatically order that a paternity test be done. If you refuse to take the test, you are dead in the water, the Court has to take that refusal as an admission that you are the father, but don't want to be "found out" and you will automatically lose your case and be ordered to pay maintenance.

Eru · 01-04-2006 10:51pm

Deleted User wrote:

If you father a child, it doesn't matter whether its a one night stand or not. How the child is conceived doesn't come into it. If you dip you wick, you must pay for the oil. In Ireland, you are legally obliged to maintain any child you father financially. Yes, the onus is on the mother to prove paternity, but if she applies to the Courts for maintenance for her child, and you dispute paternity, the Courts will automatically order that a paternity test be done. If you refuse to take the test, you are dead in the water, the Court has to take that refusal as an admission that you are the father, but don't want to be "found out" and you will automatically lose your case and be ordered to pay maintenance.

Well when you think about it thats just good old fashioned common sense and personal responsibility isn't it?

DNA Ireland · 08-04-2006 11:14am

You're not legally obliged to pay for the child if there is any doubt in your mind that you are the father. If you do have a doubt - don't put your name on the birth cert, because it's so difficult to have that changed and you probably will have to have a paternity test.
You are morally obliged to support your child and if the court orders it, legally obliged.
I know you didn't end up having a child but this is just a general comment. And funnily enough even if the child is yours, you have the paternity test to prove it, you pay maintenance and support the child and your name is on the birth certificate, but you're not married to the mother or the child was concieved outside of the marriage - you don't have any legal rights to the child - how mad is that??? You don't have guardianship or any parental rights - you have to apply for them....!!!
Madness, but it must be there for a reason, right??

Our man in Havana · 08-04-2006 5:05pm

Who would have to bear the costs of such a court ordered paternity test?

Eru · 08-04-2006 7:02pm

Bond,
The person that is requesting I suppose. If the mother is taking you too court for maintenance then she would pay but I suppose you could be made pay if the findings are not in your favour.

DNA,
It dates back to the days when fathers where running away and leaving women literally holding the baby. This doesnt explain the full family law scenario but the thinking back then was very much mother, mother, mother. Remember it was 'the womans place in the home' and daddy was the provider.

It requires such a huge shake up but for some reason despite campaigns, publicity and plain common sense demanding it no one seems inclined to change the system.

I have no idea why.

14-04-2006 2:16pm

When i was in this position, (Father disputed paternity) as he was the person disputing paternity, he had to pay for the test - if the results had came back that he wasn't the father (which the test proved he was) I would have been ordered to refund him the cost of the test.

Advice given above is good though, if you have any doubt, do not add your name to birth certificate, but have the test done.

Eru · 14-04-2006 10:50pm

You can be named on a birth cert without actually agreeing to it. You just wont have signed the cert yourself.

Our man in Havana · 14-04-2006 11:03pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

You can be named on a birth cert without actually agreeing to it. You just wont have signed the cert yourself.

I think that this only applies to married persons. In the case of un married persons the father must present himself with the mother to register the birth.

heggie · 14-04-2006 11:13pm

from this situation, a child could be born, it's sickening to think that you only think of the legal / financial obligations.

15-04-2006 1:14pm

The mother can add the father's name to the birth certificate without his consent, But to do so there must be a court order (such as maintenance order) which names the father. You can submit this court order to the Registrar of BMD and they will re-register the birth to include the father's name.

Our man in Havana · 15-04-2006 1:19pm

But the mother in the hospital just can't name Mick Jagger as the father? I would assume this the case.

15-04-2006 2:17pm

No, the Hospital Registrar will not include the name of the father on the birth certificate if the mother is unmarried, even if hes standing beside her at the hospital bed! In this case, the Father must sign a Statutory Declaration and have it witnessed and go along to the local Registrar of BMD office to have his name included on the birth certificate.

Eru · 15-04-2006 5:35pm

Deleted User wrote:

No, the Hospital Registrar will not include the name of the father on the birth certificate if the mother is unmarried, even if hes standing beside her at the hospital bed! In this case, the Father must sign a Statutory Declaration and have it witnessed and go along to the local Registrar of BMD office to have his name included on the birth certificate.

No thats incorrect. A mother can have a father named on a birth cert but it is in no way legally binding unless he has signed it. As for Mick Jagger, you could be sued if it was not possible for Mick Jagger to be the father. I never signed anything other than my daughters birth cert and to this day I have yet too marry her mother but yet every birth cert I obtain for her has not only my name on it as father but also has my daughter registered under my name and her mothers (double barrelled).

This thing about people not including fathers names to avoid maintenance and gain social welfare is a myth and nothing more.

15-04-2006 11:31pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

No thats incorrect. A mother can have a father named on a birth cert but it is in no way legally binding unless he has signed it. As for Mick Jagger, you could be sued if it was not possible for Mick Jagger to be the father. I never signed anything other than my daughters birth cert and to this day I have yet too marry her mother but yet every birth cert I obtain for her has not only my name on it as father but also has my daughter registered under my name and her mothers (double barrelled).

This thing about people not including fathers names to avoid maintenance and gain social welfare is a myth and nothing more.

Sorry Karlitosway, have to contradict you on this one. The only way an unmarried woman can register the name of her child's Father on an Irish birth cert is either by Statutory Declaration signed by the Father declaring paternity, or by applying to the Registrar with a true copy of Court Order (such as a maintenance or access order) which names the Father, and that doesn't require his consent. I've done it, and it is perfectly legal.

Eru · 16-04-2006 2:44pm

Loueze,
How old was said child on being registered? You were off through the gap pretty quick with the old maintenance hearing werent ya?

17-04-2006 12:59pm

I re-registered the birth when she was 13 months old - thats how long it took to get it to court with DNA testing etc........I only applied for the maintenance order when he refused to sign the birth certificate and disputed paternity, (I obviously couldn't apply for an access order on his behalf!) I knew it was the only way I could enter his name (other option was a black line through Father) on my child's birth certificate. My daughter was entitled to that. And I was entitled to the maintenance for her.

Eru · 17-04-2006 1:34pm

Lou,
On 1 point I stand corrected. Single parents can no longer enter the father or mothers details without some backup anymore. It appears that this trust only applies to married families (who would be less likely to admit another father IMHO

). I should have checked that my own experience was still in practice.

However in relation to your original comments, many hospitals would not register a birth outside of marriage fullstop however the county registrar would. Im specifically thinking of Holles Street when I say this as they refused to register my daughters birth.

Your comments:

Deleted User wrote:

The only way an unmarried woman can register the name of her child's Father on an Irish birth cert is either by Statutory Declaration signed by the Father declaring paternity, or by applying to the Registrar with a true copy of Court Order (such as a maintenance or access order) which names the Father,

Is incorrect as per :
"There are different options for registration, including the father's details, where the mother and father are not married. (The forms used are being replaced by new forms but are still in use.) The options are as follows:

Both the mother and father can attend the Registrar's Office together, to sign the register jointly. " (http://oasis.gov.ie/birth/after_your_baby_is_born/registering_birth_your_baby.html#id3145876)

Im not doubting your method is accepted and legal, Im stating its not the only method. Fathers can attend and freely sign the birth cert without any other documentation.

17-04-2006 3:47pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Lou,
On 1 point I stand corrected. Single parents can no longer enter the father or mothers details without some backup anymore. It appears that this trust only applies to married families (who would be less likely to admit another father IMHO ). I should have checked that my own experience was still in practice.

However in relation to your original comments, many hospitals would not register a birth outside of marriage fullstop however the county registrar would. Im specifically thinking of Holles Street when I say this as they refused to register my daughters birth.

Your comments:

Is incorrect as per :
"There are different options for registration, including the father's details, where the mother and father are not married. (The forms used are being replaced by new forms but are still in use.) The options are as follows:

Both the mother and father can attend the Registrar's Office together, to sign the register jointly. " (http://oasis.gov.ie/birth/after_your_baby_is_born/registering_birth_your_baby.html#id3145876)

Im not doubting your method is accepted and legal, Im stating its not the only method. Fathers can attend and freely sign the birth cert without any other documentation.

I thought thats what I said!?! That the hospital wouldn't register the birth, even if the Dad was there? Anyway, I think we mean the same thing, just said it different ways. I know when unmarried parents attend jointly to register the birth, the father still has to fill in the statutory declaration declaring paternity in the presence of the Registrar - friend of mine only did it last week! As per married couples, they will always take the name of the husband as the father - but that can also be changed if he signs a statutory declaration stating that he is NOT the father - I know a guy who had to do this when his wife did the dirt on him, they were divorced after the birth.

Eru · 17-04-2006 4:54pm

Deleted User wrote:

I know when unmarried parents attend jointly to register the birth, the father still has to fill in the statutory declaration declaring paternity in the presence of the Registrar - friend of mine only did it last week!

Deleted User wrote:

As per married couples, they will always take the name of the husband as the father - but that can also be changed if he signs a statutory declaration stating that he is NOT the father - I know a guy who had to do this when his wife did the dirt on him, they were divorced after the birth.

This is very annoying Loueze, I posted a direct link to the regulations concerning registering of births but yet you insist on keeping up these comments despite the fact that they are proven wrong by the offricial website and as a reuslt I must post quotes again. Please have the good grace to admit when you are wrong otherwise your just acting like a spoilt brat.

1. Father amd mother signing together does not require any other paperwork, court ordered or otherwise. "There are different options for registration, including the father's details, where the mother and father are not married. (The forms used are being replaced by new forms but are still in use.) The options are as follows:

1. Both the mother and father can attend the Registrar's Office together, to sign the register jointly.
2. The mother can complete a declaration form naming the father (S.C.1) (pdf) and bring it, along with a declaration by the baby's father acknowledging that he is the father of the child (S.C.3) (pdf). The mother signs the register.
3. The father may complete a declaration form acknowledging that he is the father of the child. (S.C.2) (pdf), and may go to the Registrar's Office himself, bringing with him a declaration by the mother naming the father (S.C.4) (pdf).
4. The mother or father may make a written request (Form S.C. 5 (pdf) and Form S.C. 6 (pdf) respectively) on production of a certified copy of a court order which names the person to be registered as the father. The parent making the request will be required to attend at the Office of the Registrar to sign the Register of Births.

If 1 is complied with then 2, 3 or 4 are not required.

As for your comment 2. Please once again see the direct quote:
"It is also possible to enter the father's details if the mother is married to someone else."

I can therefore only form the opinion that you are too lazy too even click on a link before commenting and 2 both of your friends or you yourself are telling fibs.

Our man in Havana · 17-04-2006 4:54pm

Deleted User wrote:

As per married couples, they will always take the name of the husband as the father - but that can also be changed if he signs a statutory declaration stating that he is NOT the father - I know a guy who had to do this when his wife did the dirt on him, they were divorced after the birth.

Does that mean they will always regard the husband as the father and record it so even where the mother says otherwise?

As regards to getting the husbands name off the BC, is a DNA test not needed?

17-04-2006 8:17pm

No Karlitosway - YOU are wrong. The term "attending together and signing the Register" in practice, means filling in the necessary paperwork which actually includes a statutory declaration by the Father if the couple are unmarried........ get it now?

17-04-2006 8:20pm

Cheek of you calling me lazy :mad: - I can assure you I have fully investigated all the options before reregistering my own daughters birth - ever heard of INCORRECT or INCOMPLETE information on a website?

Eru · 18-04-2006 3:16pm

I will believe my own experience and the official government website which specifically seperates the father being present and the declaration over your hearsay evidence.

Please explain, if the father of your child would not admit he was the father or sign the cert how do you know what the proceedure is for a willing father?

Ah well, some people just cannot admit when they are proven wrong.

18-04-2006 10:10pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

I will believe my own experience and the official government website which specifically seperates the father being present and the declaration over your hearsay evidence.

Please explain, if the father of your child would not admit he was the father or sign the cert how do you know what the proceedure is for a willing father?

Ah well, some people just cannot admit when they are proven wrong.

I know because I know! I've already stated that I fully investigated all the options at the time I originally registered, and then re-registered my own child's birth. When was the last time you registered, or re-registered a birth? And for your information, I am very involved in a few groups relating to parents rights, specifically, equal parental responsibility.

Where both parents attend to sign the register together, they must fill out a form called a CRA 9, which includes both their details. Ok? Check it out on the birth, marriages and deaths website if you don't believe me, (Oasis only gives very general information - funny enough they don't mention the CRA 9 so I can see where you're making your mistake) or another good site is www.treoir.ie, which is an information site for unmarried parents. Have a nice day.

Re Paternal Obligations

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