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UTV Clicksilver Con

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  • 10-03-2004 3:04pm
    #1
    lewisd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭


    The new lower prices from UTV for their Clicksilver services are great news. Unfortunately, for existing customers, this entails signing up for a new 12 month contract. Surely existing customers should benefit from any price reductions automatically without committing to a new contract. UTV's T&C's state that the price we pay for the Clicksilver service may vary and the new prices will appear on their website. The website clearly states the price for the standard Clicksilver service is €29.99 and not the €47.50 I am currently paying.

    When I signed up for Clicksilver I did not agree to pay €47.50 per month for 12 months. Instead I agreed to commit myself to pay for a service for 12 months at whatever that service was costing. I think it was pretty obvious that prices would fall and I was under the impression, as per the T&C's, that I would benefit automatically.

    I believe the only reason UTV are forcing customers into a new 12 month contract is to tie them in indefinitely to using their telephony service. They will no doubt reduce their prices for broadband again in another 6 months and we will have to sign yet another 12 month contract in order to take advantage. This is a complete swizz.

    Eircom have done if differently I believe. They have automatically upgraded their existing customers to a new enhanced version for the same money, although the customer does have the right to keep their existing service for less money. No mention of another 12 month contract - can anyone verify this?

    When I stated to Malcolm Thompson, Operations Manager at UTV Internet, that I would be contacting ComReg he replied that things could get very messy if I pursued this issue and emphasized that they have a legal team who will back them up if necessary. All very threatening.

    Unfortunately ComReg said that it is a contractual issue between customers and UTV and that they have no remit in this area. UTV's legal team are obviously doing their job.

    I used to be a huge fan of UTV Internet. Their tech support was excellent. I had every intention of sticking with them after my initial contract expired. All I asked for was that I would avail whenever prices were lowered. After all why should one customer pay €47.50 and another €29.99 for exactly the same service?

    I am now looking forward to the expiration date of my contract with UTV so that I can hopefully obtain my broadband services from a company that treats its customers with a little less contempt and does not resort to underhand business practices in order to hold on to them.

    Any other existing UTV Clicksilver customers disaffected with this state of affairs?


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    #2
    Valentia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Valentia


    Welcome to Boards, (or ist it just a new handle?). This has been discussed to death here


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    #3
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Originally posted by lewisd
    I was under the impression, as per the T&C's, that I would benefit automatically.
    Any chance of a looksee at the original terms and conditions? Are the terms currently available on the site different?


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    #4
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    Originally posted by lewisd
    When I signed up for Clicksilver I did not agree to pay ?47.50 per month for 12 months. Instead I agreed to commit myself to pay for a service for 12 months at whatever that service was costing.

    Firstly if these new pricing plans had not come out, when the existing contract expired, they would have just offered a new 12 month contract at the same rates/terms.

    When you signed for ClickSilver, you agreed to pay EUR47.50 (or what ever) for a service that was 512/128 RADSL with 48:1 contention.

    Now for the same price, your service has been upgraded to 24:1 contention for the remaining term of the contract and you are complaining...

    Sure, they have a new ("different") contract, which is cheaper than the one you are on.

    They have an offer, to release you from your existing contract, and sign a new 12 month contract. They did not have to make this offer.


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    #5
    lewisd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭lewisd


    No Gerard, my service has not been upgraded to 24:1 contention for the remainder of my contract.

    If I wanted to take advantage of this new contention ratio I would have to opt for Clicksilver Plus which also entails signing up for a new 12 month contract.

    Thanks Valentia for pointing me in the direction of the alternative thread. It is good to know I am not the only one feeling agrieved at UTV.


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    #6
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    They have an offer, to release you from your existing contract, and sign a new 12 month contract. They did not have to make this offer.

    Surely this is a conditional offer? they will release you from your existing contract if.....

    And you are certainly right when you say they did not have to make this offer!!! They could have done what all the other ISP's appear to have done - the honorable thing as regards their customers and thereby avoid losing an awful lot of goodwill.

    I think what concerns people who signed up early forClicksilver and without whom there would have been no basis for a Clicksilver service (without going into all the arguments which are detailed elsewhere) is the spirit in which UTV are operating the new prices. This is not what customers had come to expect from UTV. If Eircom had tried this on there would have been a huge outcry (but it might not have been such a big surprise) but it is more than a bit of a shock to find that UTV out of all the ISP's are the ones to do it.

    I would be very surprised if the other ISP's had not got something in their terms and conditions which would have allowed them to keep their customers to their 12 month contracts and the original prices but as far as I know none of them have done this.

    UTV have fostered extraordinarly loyalty amongst their customers over the years but loyalty is something that needs to be constantly earned not taken for granted.

    I wonder if wholesale Broadband prices are for some reason gone up would UTV had allowed us to stick with our 'contracted' prices?

    I suppose the fact that UTV charge those who migrate to the Clicksilver service from their dial up service up to the end of the calendar month (i.e there is no credit for an overlapping period with Clicksilver) should have been a clue!


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    #7
    MrPinK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭MrPinK


    Originally posted by lewisd
    When I signed up for Clicksilver I did not agree to pay €47.50 per month for 12 months. Instead I agreed to commit myself to pay for a service for 12 months at whatever that service was costing
    So if UTV had decided to increase their prices then everyone who had signed a contract should have to pay extra? When you signed the contract, you did in fact agree to pay for the service at a certain price. UTV were not obliged to offer you a new contract at the lower price at all.


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    #8
    PcP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭PcP


    Originally posted by lewisd
    When I signed up for Clicksilver I did not agree to pay €47.50 per month for 12 months.
    I'm thinking you did (but am open to correction). I dont like it but from what I can tell they are well within their rights to do as they have, no matter what us paying customers think.
    UTV have been a massive disappointment for me. I tend to advise people to stay away from them these days, complete opposite from a few months ago. Pay the money, serve out the contract and go elsewhere.


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    #9
    lewisd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭lewisd


    I am the same. I couldn't recommend UTV highly enough previously. I thought they were a breath of fresh air compared to the monoliths such as Eircom. I am now feeling left very disappointed by the way they have treated existing customers.

    I paid my Euro 99 installation fee and did not complain when UTV ran a promotion a month and a half later offering free installation and a months free connection. That was after all a promotion to entice new customers. I can understand this (the monthly subscription was at least consistent). However what has got me raging is that fact that they are now offering exactly the same service, i.e. the basic Clicksilver package, at different prices. Existing customers pay more, new customers pay less.

    In reply to your comment about contractual obligations, I am not so sure. Under definitions it states:

    "Charges" means the charges payable by you for the Service and the Modem details of which appear on the Price List;

    and

    "Price List" means the price list published by UTV Internet on the price pages of http://u.tv/clicksilver/ setting out the Charges payable for the Service and the Modem, as may be amended by UTV Internet from time to time;

    This seems to indicate that we should be entitled to benefit whenever UTV change their price for a service -as they have done so by reducing the Clicksilver product from Euro 47.50 to Euro 29.99. I wish I knew a solicitor who could clarify this one way or another.

    As you say the best thing to do now is to probably see out the remainder of my contract and find another provider. I hope enough UTV customers also do this for UTV to recognise they have made a mistake on this one.


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    #10
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by lewisd
    This seems to indicate that we should be entitled to benefit whenever UTV change their price for a service -as they have done so by reducing the Clicksilver product from Euro 47.50 to Euro 29.99. I wish I knew a solicitor who could clarify this one way or another.
    You shouldn't have any difficulty finding any number of them in the Golden Pages. Assuming, of course, that you're not looking for something for nothing.
    As you say the best thing to do now is to probably see out the remainder of my contract and find another provider.
    For some rather strange values of "best", maybe. What I find strangest about some of the critics of UTV is their willingness to pay over the odds for the remainder of their contract, so that they can tie themselves into a 12-month contract with someone who'll charge more than UTV.

    I mean, think about it: you can switch right now to a 12-month contract (i.e. until March 2005) at under €30 a month, or you can pay €47.50 a month until (say) June 2004, at which point you'll enter into a 12-month contract (i.e. until June 2005) at (say) €39 a month. Um, whatever.
    I hope enough UTV customers also do this for UTV to recognise they have made a mistake on this one.
    Frankly, I doubt it.


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    #11
    lewisd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭lewisd


    There are obviously some people who think UTV can do no wrong. I would suspect if UTV told these people that black was white they would believe it. The word Muppet springs to mind.

    On the other hand maybe these flag wavers are just UTV employees in disguise. I can't think of any other reason for individuals to unquestionably support a company unless there is something in it for them.

    Anyway enough said on the matter. It was a short and enlightening foray for me into Boards.ie, unfortunately I have more pressing things to be getting on with.

    Now, where is that Golden Pages....


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    #12
    DaithiSurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 843 ✭✭✭DaithiSurfer


    I for one am looking for a new provider at the moment. I am leaving Netsource and was looking at UTV. I think though that if the price change in 6 months then i wont get the benefit of it until i agree to be bound for another 12 months. This would be fine if i was sure that there would be no further price changes in that 12 months ,which i would not be able to get until i bound myself again for another 12 months and so on ...........
    Because of this i will not choose UTV. If they treat their existing LOYAL customers like this, then what will they do to a newbie.
    UTV, wake up, you are shooting yourselves in the foot here. Don't enforce this 12 month BS. It just frightens new customers off, as well as pissing those off who have paid you good money so far. Treat them with a little respect please.


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    #13
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by lewisd
    There are obviously some people who think UTV can do no wrong. I would suspect if UTV told these people that black was white they would believe it. The word Muppet springs to mind.
    Riight. What did you do, skip over the paragraph where I did the sums for you? Hey, it's your money.

    And I'm the Muppet? :rolleyes:
    On the other hand maybe these flag wavers are just UTV employees in disguise. I can't think of any other reason for individuals to unquestionably support a company unless there is something in it for them.
    You have a funny definition of "unquestionably supporting." Anyway, 30 seconds of research would have told you who I am, and who I do and don't work for. Maybe your solicitor can do that for you too.
    Anyway enough said on the matter. It was a short and enlightening foray for me into Boards.ie, unfortunately I have more pressing things to be getting on with.
    I hope they don't involve anyone disagreeing with you, because you haven't demonstrated an ability to handle it very well.
    Now, where is that Golden Pages....
    Do be sure to let us know how you get on. While you're there, see if you can find an ISP that will give you sub-€30 broadband without a 12-month contract.


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    #14
    DaithiSurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 843 ✭✭✭DaithiSurfer


    Originally posted by oscarBravo
    While you're there, see if you can find an ISP that will give you sub-€30 broadband without a 12-month contract.

    I dont think it's the 12 month contract that he sees as the problem with. Its trhe fact that he can't stay with UTV on the better rate without signing on for ANOTHER 12 months.


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    #15
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
    I dont think it's the 12 month contract that he sees as the problem with. Its trhe fact that he can't stay with UTV on the better rate without signing on for ANOTHER 12 months.
    It's hard to tell, since he didn't address any of the points I made.

    Besides, if he switches to the lower-priced product, he'll be tied in for exactly as long as if he bought out his existing contract and switched to another ISP, and several months less than if he waits out the existing contract and then switches.

    Sorry, but I can't see the logic.


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    #16
    DaithiSurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 843 ✭✭✭DaithiSurfer


    But he wasnt talking about buying out his contract.
    he's just miffed that UTV will not give him (a long standing customer) the benefits that they will give new customers without him signing for another 12 months. I believe he has a point there.


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    #17
    Atreides
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Atreides


    Originally posted by lewisd
    The new lower prices from UTV for their Clicksilver services are great news.
    I am now looking forward to the expiration date of my contract with UTV so that I can hopefully obtain my broadband services from a company that treats its customers with a little less contempt and does not resort to underhand business practices in order to hold on to them.

    Any other existing UTV Clicksilver customers disaffected with this state of affairs?

    You're either stupid or lying. This is an offer either take it or leave it, you don't want the cheaper offer thats fine, you where happy to pay 47.50 before, what has changed


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    #18
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
    But he wasnt talking about buying out his contract.
    I was just presenting the options.
    he's just miffed that UTV will not give him (a long standing customer) the benefits that they will give new customers without him signing for another 12 months. I believe he has a point there.
    Maybe he does, but I don't think it's a very good one, and he obviously doesn't either since he'd rather wave his arms, call people names and walk off in a huff than stand over it.

    Look: if I was thinking about signing up for Clicksilver now (which I can't), I'd have to pay €99 to be tied into the same 12-month contract that he's complaining about being offered for free. Which of us has a greater right to complain, when you look at it that way?

    It's easy to find things to complain about. It's a lot harder to find a way of delivering affordable broadband to people - trust me, I know what I'm talking about.


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    #19
    PcP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭PcP


    Originally posted by oscarBravo
    For some rather strange values of "best", maybe. What I find strangest about some of the critics of UTV is their willingness to pay over the odds for the remainder of their contract, so that they can tie themselves into a 12-month contract with someone who'll charge more than UTV.
    Reliability. I would prefer to pay my dues and move on to someone who can provide a reliable service than sign up to another 12 months of slightly cheaper but highly unreliable service. Simple as that.


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    #20
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by PcP
    Reliability. I would prefer to pay my dues and move on to someone who can provide a reliable service than sign up to another 12 months of slightly cheaper but highly unreliable service. Simple as that.
    Fine - that's your call to make. At least you're not talking about dragging lawyers into it.


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    #21
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Originally posted by oscarBravo
    Fine - that's your call to make. At least you're not talking about dragging lawyers into it.

    On reading the original post it looks as if UTV themselves were the first ones to mention the legal side of things.


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    #22
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Originally posted by Skanger
    You're either stupid or lying. This is an offer either take it or leave it, you don't want the cheaper offer thats fine, you where happy to pay 47.50 before, what has changed

    The wholesale price of broadband is what has changed.

    A lot of UTV's customers are very disappointed in the attitude they see displayed towards them by UTV particulary when they see how the other ISp's have behaved in relation to their own customers.


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    #23
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by dub45
    On reading the original post it looks as if UTV themselves were the first ones to mention the legal side of things.
    ...allegedly - and after lewisd threatened them with ComReg.
    A lot of UTV's customers are very disappointed in the attitude they see displayed towards them by UTV particulary when they see how the other ISp's have behaved in relation to their own customers.
    The way I see it, the other ISPs' behaviour to their own customers involves charging them a tenner more every month than UTV. Don't kid yourself: my prediction is that the bulk of Clicksilver customers will switch over (if they haven't already), and will be glad of the opportunity to do so.


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    #24
    Atreides
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Atreides


    Originally posted by dub45
    The wholesale price of broadband is what has changed.
    What a pointless comment, did you even read what i said, what relavence does this have to what i said.

    Originally posted by dub45

    A lot of UTV's customers are very disappointed in the attitude they see displayed towards them by UTV particulary when they see how the other ISp's have behaved in relation to their own customers.

    Other ISP's don't have a cps service. UTV are offering the best deal around by a long way, I've no problem with extending my contract for another 12 months since I had no intention of leaving them, unless your claiming you did then get off the soap box.

    Incase, you didn't actually read your T&C the reason they ask you to sign up for another 12 months is because its a different service. If they had of simply lower the price of the existing service you could have just walked out of your contract since any change in pricing will allow you to void the contract. UTV obviously don't want people leaving before hte 12 months are up, just because they brought out a cheaper product. So before you and your kind go around accusing people of conning old ladies out of they pension books, maybe ingage your brain first. Its no wonder people at UTV don't bother to respond here to much, with all the hot heads.


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    #25
    Atreides
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Atreides


    Originally posted by PcP
    Reliability. I would prefer to pay my dues and move on to someone who can provide a reliable service than sign up to another 12 months of slightly cheaper but highly unreliable service. Simple as that.

    sorry I'd like to see the mystical magical reliable ISP service? You where on a bog standard adsl service with a 48:1 contention, not the best in the world and by no means super, but UTV's version was and still is alot more reliable then eircoms (which I had) or IOLbb, and don't even mention NS to me.

    also its more then slightly cheaper its 17.50 cheaper or 2.50 cheaper for a 24:1 contention which should improve reliability a great deal.


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    #26
    PcP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭PcP


    First off, let me make it clear that if I had a reliable connection this contract thing would not be an issue for me. Here's a brief rundown of my experience with UTV, and then tell me that its more reliable than Eircoms or that looking for better service elsewhere is looking for a 'mystical magical reliable ISP'

    Connected end of September. First 5/6 weeks connection was throttled. Rang, mailed and posted to support group. Specifically told UTV on more than one occasion that my connection was throttled but it took weeks for them to even acknowledge there was a problem.
    November - couple of weeks with no problems.
    December - started having trouble connecting. Some nights when connected latency was off the scale making the connection unusable. The problems got worse throughout the month until it went down completely over the Christmas period.
    January/February - more disconnections/downtime and still nights of unusable connection. At the least every second weekend these problems persisted.
    March - more downtime (again at weekend) and the odd night of bad latency, not as bad as Jan/Feb admittedly.

    I'm big into gaming and I train with my clan on weekends. I dont need uber low pings just stable and the only other thing I want is to be able to accept a challenge for a match and say yeah, I'm available to play at whatever date/time without my connection going out or bouncing all over the place. The start of this year in particular has been an absolute disaster. Many others have had little to no problems, great, I'm happy for them and if it was me I'd sign a new contract but my connection has been more hassle than its worth.

    I feckin hate Eircom but to say UTV is more reliable is talkin pure rubbish, Eircom keep the sweet spots for themselves.


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    #27
    Atreides
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Atreides


    Originally posted by PcP
    I feckin hate Eircom but to say UTV is more reliable is talkin pure rubbish, Eircom keep the sweet spots for themselves.

    I didn't claim that, you claimed there was a more reliable equilvalent service out there, I said it didn't exist. UTV resell eircoms product, if your having all these problems don't presume it will be better with eircom. As for trottling your service, doubt it happened, just your where unlucky enough to get lumped in with heavy users, remember its 48:1, only takes four users to max their bandwidth for you to start to see the effects, most likely they moved you to another group of users to fix the problem. The Ping issue would very well be your line and your distance from the exchange, just because you may be close to the exchange doesn't mean your line takes the most direct route.

    I'm not trying to hassle you here, just that it annoys me when people expect wonders from there broadband service, jsut because we in ireland are paying for a premium service doesn't mean we get one, quiet the opposite. My connection isn't great but its there 95% of the time and I don't really care for pings. Maybe thats your problem, but unless you want to go to iolbb for better pings and put up with the **** they dish out then you can't complain.


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    #28
    Xcellor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Speaking from a neutral standpoint. Being with IOL and not UTV.

    I think what they are doing is low. Yes people signed up and were happy paying whatever the original price was but things have changed with wholesale price going down.

    UTV could quite easily reduce the price of BB for existing customers if they wanted to WITHOUT losing any profit.

    A lot on this board seem to have the opinion that if you were happy paying the price before you should have the same feelings now. Look at it from the companies viewpoint now... If they were happy with the profit margin that they had previously, then they should be happy with it now (even though their prices have gone down they are still making profit because wholesale prices have gone down too). They are taking in more profits from their existing customers than they need to. This may not be legally wrong, but it's morally wrong.

    If UTV cared about their customers they would automatically pass the saving on. No questions asked. It's bloody ridiculous that in a consumer orientated society companies like this exist...

    There really is no excuse for UTV's attitude IMO... If they were confident in their service and feel they are providing a quality service then what do they have to fear? Trying to tie people into extending contracts is just wrong. If I was a UTV Internet subscriber then as soon as my contract ran out I would change to an alternate service provider out of principle even if UTV are the cheapest provider (provided you swictch CPS)...

    I am trying my best not to rant away here, but I just can't express how disappointed I am in this seemingly promising Internet Service Provider... I find it ludicrous that there are people here with UTV Internet and are justifying the actions. It's exactly that sort of attitude that will make UTV feel that they can get away with it.

    Plain and simple for those of you who didn't read all the above:
    UTV are over charging existing customers and don't give a toss unless you lock yourself into another contract with them. That is wrong.


    X


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    #29
    Xcellor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Originally posted by Skanger

    I'm not trying to hassle you here, just that it annoys me when people expect wonders from there broadband service, jsut because we in ireland are paying for a premium service doesn't mean we get one, quiet the opposite. My connection isn't great but its there 95% of the time and I don't really care for pings. Maybe thats your problem, but unless you want to go to iolbb for better pings and put up with the **** they dish out then you can't complain.

    It's an attitude similar to yours that allows ISPs to get away with giving crap services. Why shouldn't we expect wonders from broadband? I mean all the advertising and hype about it. As a consumer I demand a service that is reliable, usable and lives up to the claims in the advertisements. If it doesn't then I am fully entitled to give out. The sooner people in Ireland start grasping consumer rights and start demanding companies fufill them the better...

    But that won't happen. Not for a while.

    X


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    #30
    PcP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 229 ✭✭PcP


    Okay skanger

    1) the throttle did happen, not just to me and UTV admitted the fault after the event.

    2) What the hell is this then?? "but UTV's version was and still is alot more reliable then eircoms"

    3) I didnt claim anything, I merely explained why I'm prepared to pay over the odds until my contract expires. My connection is unreliable. When my contract expires I will look for someone more reliable. Surely that aint too hard to grasp.


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    #31
    Atreides
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Atreides


    Originally posted by Xcellor
    It's an attitude similar to yours that allows ISPs to get away with giving crap services. Why shouldn't we expect wonders from broadband? I mean all the advertising and hype about it. As a consumer I demand a service that is reliable, usable and lives up to the claims in the advertisements. If it doesn't then I am fully entitled to give out. The sooner people in Ireland start grasping consumer rights and start demanding companies fufill them the better...

    But that won't happen. Not for a while.

    X

    A bog standard service like the adsl service where on is crap, thats my whole point. For hte money we are paying we should be getting a much better service (high speed lower contention better pings) but where not. My attitude is not thats it ok, I simply realise the limits of the service I am on, and that at this point in time there are no other options. the reason we shouldn't we expect wonders from this broadband service is that its extremely basic, I can't rest the point that jsut because something is charged at a premium price doesn't make it a premium service. I'll spell it out for you,

    48:1 contention is not great, four out of that 48 downloading at their max will effect your service.

    Pings are **** because they (eircom) chose quantity over quality along time ago

    Speed are low because thats the cap eircom have place through its wholesale pricing.

    and so on... these are the limits of the service, which at is worse can be potentially useless. The difference is i accept these limits while your kind claim bliss full ignornace of them and cry con and for shame when your service is dodgy


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