Patrick Thomson - Dublin and Aberdeen

Hermy · 26-03-2013 11:51pm #1

I'm researching my g-g-g grandfather Patrick Thomson and I could do with some help as I try to establish what I think are his Scottish roots.

Here's what I have so far:

Patrick Thomson married Catherine Walsh in Dublin in 1847 and they had three children, Mary Frances, Annie and Bridget.

He died in 1848 as per his headstone which gives his addresses at 14 Upper Mecklenburgh Street and Mountain View, Upper Mountpleasant.

His wife Catherine then married Dr. Daniel Dwyer of 52 Camden Street and they had a further three children.

Now according to Pettigrew & Oulton, Patrick Urquhart, a surveyor to the GPO, also resided at the same address who I'm guessing might be a cousin of Patrick Thomson. [I presume the wine merchant Urquhart Thomson is his father]

I have found a reference to a Patrick Urquhart born in Tough in Aberdeen who worked in the GPO in Dublin. I've been in touch with the author of the tree, Evelyn Wilcox, who kindly provided me with the text of Alexander Urquhart's will which mentions his son working in Dublin.

I have also found a reference to an Urquhart Thomson who died in Dublin in 1824 who is a brother of Helen Thomson [Patrick Urquhart's mother] who just might be Patrick Thomson's father. I await a reply from the author of this tree.

Despite still being a bit confused by the various Patrick's, Urquhart's and Thomson's I feel quite confident that I'm on the right track. But I know I need more info before I can say for sure that I've found Patrick Thomson's ancestors.

So if anyone can suggest how I might go about confirming this I'd be very grateful.

Hermy · 27-03-2013 12:34am

In a nutshell, is Urquhart Thomson mentioned here the father of my g-g-g grandfather Patrick Thomson.

EDIT: Y'know, sometimes the act of putting a post together does a lot to clarify things for oneself.:o

Coolnabacky1873 · 27-03-2013 12:55pm

Have you searched for newspaper obituaries, deeds or surviving pre-1858 Will Indexes?

You could try putting the names into the Irish Times search facility and see what comes up.

Deeds might be a long shot but based on their occupations they seem to have been middle class folk so you never know.

The 1922 fire destroyed the pre-1858 Wills&Admins but there are various Will&Admin indexes that survived or were re-created afterwards. John Grenham's chapter on this subject outlines all there is to search in.

Family relationships might be detailed on those.

You mentioned a Scottish link too, have you been on the ScotlandsPeople website?

Best of luck with it all!

Hermy · 27-03-2013 1:25pm

I hadn't used the ScotlandsPeople website yet and just looking at it now - thanks.

Hermy · 27-03-2013 4:07pm

Well I've renewed my sub with Ancestry and found several trees which feature Urquhart Thomson and Patrick Urquhart but none add to the info I already have.
Much as I love genealogy sometimes it can be so frustrating!

L1011 · 27-03-2013 9:24pm

ScotlandsPeople can leave you very, very much poorer (financially) and often still in the dark after spending quite a bit. Best way I've found to use it is to buy enough credits for a few search page results, but do as much filtering as you can by restricting things down on the search interface.

Hermy · 27-03-2013 10:09pm

Yes, the charges are fairly hefty so I left it be.

L1011 · 27-03-2013 11:35pm

Hermy wrote: »

Yes, the charges are fairly hefty so I left it be.

If you've even got a suspicion someone is there and get a single (or very limited number) solid match its worth giving it a go. Found my great great grandfather who'd vanished from this island after 1901 - 1911 census and later in 1911 death cert - via it. Absolutely sure its him due to his meticulous recording of a fairly obscure occupation (there was only ever one RIC officer with his name, let alone a sergeant/pensioner former sergeant...)

Pity the charges are so horrific though. The cert fees would be OK if the index was free, but charging for the census too is horrendous.

Hermy · 31-03-2013 8:53pm

I've found the marriage of Urquhart Thomson and Frances Geale in 1803 in the Probate Record and Marriage Licence Index, 1270-1858 on Ancestry. It's very likely that these are Patrick's parents and I'm tempted to just run with it but I'm still having to assume too much. Perhaps the newspapers may throw up something...

Hermy · 06-04-2013 3:13pm

This family just continue to confuse me...
I've just got the marriage cert for Patrick Thomson and Catherine Walsh which says they married in the Registrars Office in Dublin on May 12th 1847 which I think most unusual for the time. Now given that he already had three children before they married I'm wondering what was the story as the marriage cert says he was a bachelor?
There is also an entry for their marriage under the Ireland, Marriages, 1619-1898 heading on Family Search - would that be a reference to a church service?

shanew · 06-04-2013 3:25pm

Hermy wrote: »

....
There is also an entry for their marriage under the Ireland, Marriages, 1619-1898 heading on Family Search - would that be a reference to a church service?

Most of those are extracted Civil records. Church records usually mention the church or parish - this one has location as 'Dublin South',. so def. sounds like a civil record.

The Batch No./Film reference can help confirm ... I'll see if I can figure out...

shanew · 06-04-2013 3:29pm

film reference on that marriage record is 101286

which gives these detail in the catalog

'..Marriage records, 1845-1870, with indexes to marriages, 1845-1921, in the General Registry Office of Ireland..'

Hermy · 07-04-2013 2:02pm

Sometimes the problem is assuming that things are one way and then having to change that for another assumption. I had assumed that Catherine was the mother of their three daughters, but the children were already born before they got married. So I'm wondering if Patrick was previously married, perhaps to Eleanor O'Donnell mentioned on the parish record of their daughter Annie's marriage, despite him being described as a bachelor on his 1847 marriage cert.

By the way, can anyone tell me where the registrars office was back then?

shanew · 07-04-2013 2:33pm

Hermy wrote: »

This family just continue to confuse me...
I've just got the marriage cert for Patrick Thomson and Catherine Walsh which says they married in the Registrars Office in Dublin on May 12th 1847 .........

Hermy wrote: »

....
By the way, can anyone tell me where the registrars office was back then?

what's the name of the registrar, the subdistrict and the bride and groom's addresses?

There are several sub-districts in Dublin south.. spread across Dublin city and south west County Dublin.

Hermy · 07-04-2013 8:16pm

The address for both is Mount Pleasant Avenue and I think the Registrars name is Thomas W Reily but I'm not sure so here's a scan.
I'd also be grateful if you could decipher the missing bit of the part that reads the provisions of the Act 7+8...by license.

shanew · 07-04-2013 8:30pm

the .. the provisions of the Act 7+8...by license.... section is just the standard wording from the relevant marriage act.

In the 'City of Dublin, so eliminates a large part of the registration district.

Bride & groom's residence in Ranelagh.

I think there was a registry office on or near Stephen's green - I'll try to find the registrar

Hermy · 07-04-2013 8:42pm

Thanks again Shane. I had hoped that among other things the cert would give a clue as to where Catherine came from as I know nothing of who came before her.

shanew · 07-04-2013 8:51pm

seems to have been just one Registrar of Marriages for all of Dublin South, but cant find the office so far...

The official wording for the legislation is :

Marriages (Ireland) Act, Vic. 7 & 8, cap. 81 (1844)

so probably a version of that is what appears on the cert. The 7 & 8/Vic. refers to the 7th/8th year of the reign of Victoria, 81 is the chapter reference

shanew · 07-04-2013 9:12pm

haven't found where the marriage office was at that time, yet - there was one on Aungier St., but slightly later, and quite a few BMD registration offices south Dublin, including Rathmines, Donnybrook and High St. (although strictly speaking neither Rathmines or Donnybrook were 'city' back then). Registrar's surname looks like 'Relly', but not finding any sign of him yet...

Could that Thomas be a brother of Catherine ?
Unfortunately with a common surname like Walsh and no clues to locations nit's going to be a problem following them back in time..

Hermy · 07-04-2013 9:24pm

Yeah, I'd be guessing that Thomas is a brother.
Looking for a record of a William Walsh I realise how lucky I've been up till now working with less usual surnames.
Would the Registrar be Keely?
And was it unusual for the time to marry in the Registrars Office?
Might that be explained by my suspicion that he was previously married?

shanew · 07-04-2013 9:31pm

Registry office suggests possibly a mixed marriage - but no way to be certain from just the marriage record. Not that unusual, as the only marriages civil registered at the time were non-Catholic or Registry Office - so a small numbers compared to later years. Given the date it could possibly be an RC couple - only way to make a marriage 'official' for Wills etc was to either marry in a CofI church or Registry office.

(You didn't have to be CofI to marry in a CoI church. It was the established or state religion at the time, residence in the parish was enough to qualify.)

Dont think him possibly being previously married would have any bearing on the choice of location. Either way he'd have to mislead the registrar when asked the question and risk a fine.. unless he was widowed and misunderstood the question

Hermy · 10-04-2013 4:08pm

I wonder would any of you mind having a go at figuring out a month for me.
It's the baptism of Daniel Joseph Dwyer, son of Catherine Thomson nee Walsh and her second husband Dr Daniel O'Dwyer. The entry is on the the right hand page and almost in the middle - I count about 22 lines from top or bottom. My guess is March but if anyone could second that I'd be very obliged.
Thanks

shanew · 10-04-2013 4:16pm

I think possibly April - the year starts at the top of the page and the date sequence restarts four times ..

Jan 1 to 27
Feb 20, 22 27
Mar 18 and 22
April 5,7,9,19....

Hermy · 10-04-2013 4:25pm

I'd go along with that - thanks Shane.
I had the second 27th as being the end of January but your reading makes more sense.

EDIT: I was just looking for a month but the date was also wrong - that's definitely 19 and not 17 as I had assumed.

Patrick Thomson - Dublin and Aberdeen

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