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Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    GM228 wrote: »
    And then of course you get Tweets like this:

    https://twitter.com/joe_elway/status/1105117584171651072?s=19

    It does seem to be a bit of "Ryanair bashing" to me, people forget about the likes of Norwegian or Southwest and FlyDubai (SE and FD have the two largest fleets?) who actually operate them at present unlike Ryanair.

    Telegraph in on the act now:
    https://twitter.com/johcraw/status/1105123777778733057

    Like another newspaper, uses a photo of a 737-800 and mentions Ryanair as a MAX user.

    I guess using a photo of an actual 737-800 MAX with someone who actually operates them and only mentioning those airlines in the article wouldn't allow them to have a dig.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    India have issued a directive where a pilot needs to have 1000 hours flight experience, Co pilot 500 hour to fly the 737 max.

    There is big money involved in this plane so I would imagine it will be a political football for awhile.

    Imagine if Boeing was a Russian company. There would be a lot more cheerleaders calling for it to be grounded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 Youdunnit


    Limpy wrote: »
    India have issued a directive where a pilot needs to have 1000 hours flight experience, Co pilot 500 hour to fly the 737 max.

    There is big money involved in this plane so I would imagine it will be a political football for awhile.

    Imagine if Boeing was a Russian company. There would be a lot more cheerleaders calling for it to be grounded.

    It's interesting

    I mentioned earlier the US has 737 max sales to Vietnam and the FAA has approved Vietnam for flights to US

    Seems to be all part of a deal


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Trying to reliably transmit data from air to ground would be a nightmare (especially the amount of data being generated by modern aircraft), there would simply be too much latency for it to be reliable.
    I disagree, the technology is already there, look how much information you can see on FR24, racing cars use similar telemetry, buses, taxis and even pizza deliveries are using similar technology in its basic form. Once the data is monitored and recorded the transmission and storage of it is only a minor hurdle which could be easily overcome if it ever become a requirement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭ironclaw


    I disagree, the technology is already there, look how much information you can see on FR24, racing cars use similar telemetry, buses, taxis and even pizza deliveries are using similar technology in its basic form. Once the data is monitored and recorded the transmission and storage of it is only a minor hurdle which could be easily overcome if it ever become a requirement.

    Oh boy. It's not that simple.

    A couple of factors that spring to mind:

    Object Speed - Most cellular networks have a speed rating, that is how fast an object can be moving relative to a tower and still be usable. 3G was around 120km/h and later generations I think we're trying to get upwards of 200km/h. Of course, that' in a lab under perfect conditions. It doesn't apply when you have a plane at 30k ft in the atmosphere.

    Data Consistency & Integrity - It doesn't really matter if you are missing a few bytes from an F1 car or you miss an update from the pizza guy. It's a huge issue if you are pulling that data from a plane that may be required to review an accident. Error rates can quickly increase when you have bad connections and error checking can only get so good.

    Bandwidth - The amount of data being sent from a plane would be sizable and if you wanted to make sure you had the latest data for say an accident, it needs to be close to real time. Imagine you now have thousands of planes in the air every day and they are each sending sizable chunks of data. You rapidly start to run out of spectrum and channels (Shannon limits etc)

    FR24 isn't sending huge packets of data. It's a really simple data system and it's one way in a 'fire and forget' fashion.

    In short, consumer tech isn't remotely comparable to the hurdles you'd face on a plane.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I disagree, the technology is already there, look how much information you can see on FR24, racing cars use similar telemetry, buses, taxis and even pizza deliveries are using similar technology in its basic form. Once the data is monitored and recorded the transmission and storage of it is only a minor hurdle which could be easily overcome if it ever become a requirement.

    You are severly underestimating the amount of variables involved in the flight of an aircraft.

    Boeing do have a patent in for some technology to transmit a subset of the data to a central repositry.
    More here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box

    As others have said, if it were feasible/possible it would already have been implemente/done but at massive massive cost, and no one wants to support those costs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I just saw on the news that the two recorders have been recovered but they may be badly damaged.
    Why is it not possible to transmit the flight data in real time to a ground-based database so that finding the recorders wouldn't be so vital after an accident. It could also be used to quickly locate a plane that went down in a remote area, or at sea or to assist maintenance engineers to resolve any problem which occurred during a flight.
    Each airline could maintain its own database or subcontract to a third party. Once a flight has landed without incident the data for that flight could be wiped.

    One reason is that planes spend a lot of time flying over places where there are no mobile phone towers, let alone a network of incredibly expensive dedicated aviation radio receiving stations. Think of flights across the Pacific and Atlantic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    There wouldn't be such a vast quantity of data. All you would be transmitting is a code for each parameter and a value for that parameter at, let's say, five second intervals. The total amount of data for an average flight wouldn't be as much as would be contained in an average YouTube video.
    Also, you would still retain the 'black' boxes so you wouldn't be totally reliant on the ground-based database. You would not be substituting what you have now with something else, you would be adding to it.

    You are forgetting the cockpit voice recorders have probably been just as useful, if not more so, than the flight data recorders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,602 ✭✭✭Damien360


    kippy wrote: »
    You are severly underestimating the amount of variables involved in the flight of an aircraft.

    Boeing do have a patent in for some technology to transmit a subset of the data to a central repositry.
    More here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box

    As others have said, if it were feasible/possible it would already have been implemente/done but at massive massive cost, and no one wants to support those costs.

    I thought Rolls Royce have live engine monitoring particularly on A380 and Lufthansa were using this service according to Google. How are they transmitting that data and are the data packets much smaller than say flight data ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Damien360 wrote: »
    I thought Rolls Royce have live engine monitoring particularly on A380 and Lufthansa were using this service according to Google. How are they transmitting that data and are the data packets much smaller than say flight data ?

    I believe they use the INMARST network of satellites.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Damien360 wrote: »
    I thought Rolls Royce have live engine monitoring particularly on A380 and Lufthansa were using this service according to Google. How are they transmitting that data and are the data packets much smaller than say flight data ?
    Engine data is one small subset of the data and as we've seen with a number of cases it's not even "full" data - just a subset of same.
    Not feasible for larger data amounts.
    Again, it comes down to cost.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/11/world/boeing-737-max-which-airlines.html

    The NYT has an accurate up to date list of groundings and seems to have live (ish) updating as for example the Comair status changed within minutes of their announcement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭Safehands


    STB. wrote: »
    Ryanair is preparing to deploy its very first MAX jet on routes to Tenerife and Thessaloniki from London-Stansted on 14 March.... ie this coming week. 50 more being delivered by end of year.
    10% of their fleet will be the 737 Max 8 HC by end of next year. The HC mod is just a tag signifying capacity for extra passengers.
    https://airlinerwatch.com/ryanair-to-station-its-first-boeing-737-max-8-hc-in-london-stansted/

    Whatever one thinks of Ryanair, they are a very safety conscious airline. These incidents will give them the heeby jeebies, especially as so many airlines are grounding their 737 Max aircraft. Many people are rightly concerned about flying on these new planes, I suspect that Michael O'Leary will be having high level discussions about the wisdom of introducing these new aircraft at this time. He certainly won't be having photoshoots and advertising campaigns about their introduction.
    Difficult for them, and the crews who have to fly them.
    My thoughts are with the families of the deceased in Ethiopia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Meanwhile, C-FAXD is in the air the last hour on delivery to Sunwing.

    https://www.flightradar24.com/SWG9910/1fc4faac

    In light of the groundings I wonder will this be the last 737 MAX to leave BFI for a while?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    GM228 wrote: »
    Meanwhile, C-FAXD is in the air the last hour on delivery to Sunwing.

    https://www.flightradar24.com/SWG9910/1fc4faac

    In light of the groundings I wonder will this be the last 737 MAX to leave BFI for a while?

    The MAX hasn’t been grounded worldwide, it’s up to the airlines or local regulators to ground it at this moment in time. Airlines will continue to receive them unless they decide to delay them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Shn99 wrote: »
    The MAX hasn’t been grounded worldwide, it’s up to the airlines or local regulators to ground it at this moment in time. Airlines will continue to receive them unless they decide to delay them

    Yes I'm aware of that (and none yet grounded in Canada), but in light of the growing list I do wonder if Boeing themselves will delay the aircraft, obviously that will depend also on developments arising out of the recorders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,211 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Safehands wrote: »
    Whatever one thinks of Ryanair, they are a very safety conscious airline. These incidents will give them the heeby jeebies, especially as so many airlines are grounding their 737 Max aircraft. Many people are rightly concerned about flying on these new planes, I suspect that Michael O'Leary will be having high level discussions about the wisdom of introducing these new aircraft at this time. He certainly won't be having photoshoots and advertising campaigns about their introduction.
    Difficult for them, and the crews who have to fly them.
    My thoughts are with the families of the deceased in Ethiopia.

    I thought Ryanair were only receiving the first MAX at the end of April.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 645 ✭✭✭faoiarvok


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    It could also be used to quickly locate a plane that went down in a remote area

    This part is just becoming operational, run from the IAA’s North Atlantic Comms centre in Ballygirreen:
    https://aireon.com/services/aireonalert/

    This is just satellites “passively” (probably not the right term) receiving transponder information already being broadcast by the aircraft’s transponder, and not the kind of technology you’re talking about however.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    kippy wrote: »
    You are severly underestimating the amount of variables involved in the flight of an aircraft.

    Boeing do have a patent in for some technology to transmit a subset of the data to a central repositry.
    More here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/09/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box

    As others have said, if it were feasible/possible it would already have been implemente/done but at massive massive cost, and no one wants to support those costs.
    Actually I have a fair idea of the amount of data and variables involved which is why I mentioned it. Some people here are suggesting it can't be done for technical reasons, others are suggesting it can't be done for cost reasons, which is it?
    We can send HD television signals across the globe by satellite but we can't transmit telemetry via the same systems..?
    It will never become a reality until it becomes a legal requirement, and then it will happen pretty quickly because the technology already exists, it's just the will that's missing.
    Even if it started off with certain limited data samples it would have to be better than the current system where everything hinges on the recorders being found and the data on them being readable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,404 ✭✭✭plodder


    ironclaw wrote: »
    Bandwidth - The amount of data being sent from a plane would be sizable and if you wanted to make sure you had the latest data for say an accident, it needs to be close to real time. Imagine you now have thousands of planes in the air every day and they are each sending sizable chunks of data. You rapidly start to run out of spectrum and channels (Shannon limits etc)

    FR24 isn't sending huge packets of data. It's a really simple data system and it's one way in a 'fire and forget' fashion.
    Exactly, FR24 uses thousands of receivers distributed around the world, each connected to typically wired broadband. The system is not limited by communications bandwidth. Whereas satellites have only limited radio spectrum available to them, are therefore highly limited in the amount of bandwidth available. The Lion air recorder data was recovered and there's every reason to believe it will be from this accident as well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Modern flight recorders record hundreds if not thousands of parameters but they're not all mandatory parameters as required by legislation. The DFDAU decides what data is recorded, and at what sample rate, a lot of the data recorded by the DFDR is used for reliability, trend monitoring and maintenance purposes. If they started by transmitting the mandatory parameters at reduced sample rates it would be better than nothing. The transmission of voice recordings as recorded by the CVR would take up zero bandwidth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Actually I have a fair idea of the amount of data and variables involved which is why I mentioned it. Some people here are suggesting it can't be done for technical reasons, others are suggesting it can't be done for cost reasons, which is it?
    We can send HD television signals across the globe by satellite but we can't transmit telemetry via the same systems..?
    It will never become a reality until it becomes a legal requirement, and then it will happen pretty quickly because the technology already exists, it's just the will that's missing.
    Even if it started off with certain limited data samples it would have to be better than the current system where everything hinges on the recorders being found and the data on them being readable.

    It's a combination of both. That's what I've been saying.
    And I'll say that of it could be done with good results it would already have been done.

    Thing is, in the majority of cases the recorders are found and the data is readable so what percentage of cases would these features help with investigations and is the cost and additional technologies required to support it justified?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,028 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Very dignified and poignant tribute to Michael Ryan from his mother. Seemed like quite a man. RIP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,435 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Actually I have a fair idea of the amount of data and variables involved which is why I mentioned it. Some people here are suggesting it can't be done for technical reasons, others are suggesting it can't be done for cost reasons, which is it?
    We can send HD television signals across the globe by satellite but we can't transmit telemetry via the same systems..?
    It will never become a reality until it becomes a legal requirement, and then it will happen pretty quickly because the technology already exists, it's just the will that's missing.
    Even if it started off with certain limited data samples it would have to be better than the current system where everything hinges on the recorders being found and the data on them being readable.

    They can monitor spaceships landing on Mars, of course it's possible if they wanted, but currently airline development is about getting people places as cost-effectiely as possible


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    The FAA have issued a CANIC, A Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community, which reaffirms the airworthiness of the 737MAX to airlines and all parties concerned


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,404 ✭✭✭plodder


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    They can monitor spaceships landing on Mars, of course it's possible if they wanted, but currently airline development is about getting people places as cost-effectiely as possible
    The issue is more about scale than distance though. One estimate I saw says there can be up to 10,000 commercial aircraft in the sky at any time. Even just transmitting the voice recording of that number of flights at the same time would use a huge chunk of the available bandwidth of a system like INMARSAT. It would be phenomenally expensive, for not much benefit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,110 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Shn99 wrote: »
    The FAA have issued a CANIC, A Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community, which reaffirms the airworthiness of the 737MAX to airlines and all parties concerned

    Well given the FAA seem to have been in bed with Boeing the whole time, it would have been surprising if they had done anything else.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    I've just looked at FR24, and as of a few moments ago, they are tracking somewhere in the region of 14,000 flights worldwide. A significant number of those flights are out of range of a cellular tower system, so to capture adequate real time data from all of these flights, a significant network of satellites, similar to the GPS network would be needed, and the reality is that the cost of putting such a network into place, and the ongoing operating costs, would be very significant, and getting worldwide international agreement for such a network would be another very significant issue, and the number of accidents that need a data capture resource of this nature is still happily very low indeed.

    The unfortunate reality is that the incidents with the Max are looking suspiciously like the same sort of scenario that was responsible for the Kegworth crash, even though the reasons were different, and that failing is very much a problem of crew information and training, compounded by a lack of clarity from Boeing. Had the crew of the Kegworth accident made the right diagnosis of the fault, it was completely survivable, but for a number of reasons, they made a fatal wrong diagnosis, and shut down the wrong engine.

    There have been strong arguments made for a number of years that "grandfather rights" for certification and type ratings should be disallowed when there have been significant changes to the aircraft when compared to the original certified design, and there can be no doubt that the difference between the original 737 (200) family and the Max range are very significant. At one time, Boeing produced an "analog" version of the 300 series to suit South West, as they didn't want to deal with the massive differences between the 200 and the 300, as that would have caused them a lot of rostering and scheduling problems.

    Now we have the scenario where Boeing have deliberately modified the flight characteristics of the Max in order to make it fly like the earlier versions, to the extent they have not made full disclosure of some of the effects of the changes to the people "at the sharp end", so the pilots are not fully aware of the things that can happen, or why they are happening, and the worry now is that there have been changes made to the systems that are not fully fail safe, or fully fail redundant, and it is even possible that the testing of the new systems was done on the basis of making sure it worked with valid data, but it seems (worryingly) possible that tests on completely spurious and invalid data were not carried through the process, and to make it worse, check list procedures and awareness training also appear to have been compromised.

    The bigger concern is that these changes appear to have been formally agreed with and approved by the FAA, and it was the case that the FAA were supposed to be the people who made sure that manufacturers did not cut corners or bend the rules, and that role seems to have been more than slightly blurred, if what is coming out at the moment is to be believed.

    A very long time ago now, I did some very in depth work on the A320 family for a BAE research division, and as part of that work we had to do some detailed research on the way that the aircraft could be flown in manual reversion, a failure state that was highly unlikely, due to the number of failures across multiple redundant systems that were involved.

    We discovered that we were going to have problems doing the research in simulators, in that the European regulators had allowed the airlines in Europe to not train for that scenario, as it was deemed so insignificant statistically, the costs and time involved in training for it were deemed too high compared to the likely occurrence of a "real" event.

    As a result, European certified simulators were unable to correctly model the handling of the aircraft in that failure mode, and we ended up having to go to a simulator in the States, where were were able to get the information we needed, as the FAA had taken a different view, and required the airlines to train for such a failure, so the simulators correctly modelled it. When we discussed this among a number of involved parties, the strong implication was that the "local" regulators had been biased by significant pressure from the local manufacturer, and I mention this here to make it clear that this sort of favouritism is not limited to one regulatory system.

    We already know that there have been issues with the 737 family, as mentioned earlier, when the 300 first was introduced, while the failure was caused by a new engine issue, the Kegworth crash was partly attributed to changes made between the 200 and 300 that meant the crew were misled by the symptoms they saw, and their training on the differences had not highlighted some of those differences. There were also fundamental crew resource management issues in the cockpit which resulted in a massive change in the whole cockpit training methodology, but that's another subject that's not really for this thread.

    Then, a number of years later, there were a significant number of unexplained crashes that were eventually found to be a problem with the rudder actuator system, resulting in a full hard over rudder lock, which was initially resolved by significant changes to operating speeds, the problem being that a rudder hard over at low speeds could not be overcome by the effect of aileron and spoilers, so the aircraft effectively kept rolling, and was unrecoverable. A 10 Kt increase in speeds meant that the aileron combination could overcome this, and that, in combination with a redesign of some of the hardware does appear to have resolved the issue, but it took a long time and too many accidents before it was resolved.

    Now, while it's very early, it seems that there may be issues with the way in which Boeing have made changes to minimise the difference between the Max and the earlier generations, and those issues have not been fully documented and covered in the training on "differences". I hope it is that simple, and that there are no cut corners that have come out of the woodwork to cause these fatal accidents.

    We can only hope that the highest priority will be given to getting the data off the recorders, and determining if there is a bigger issue than had been thought. I don't have adequate words to express the feelings I have about the loss of close on 400 lives, I just hope that what is causing these problems will be found and resolved before there are any more losses.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    If there is so much technical difficulties with transmitting flight data to a land based database, how come many airlines are offering internet access to passengers. Aer Lingus are offering internet access on all their trans Atlantic flights.............Just wondering?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Mebuntu


    Great post, Irish Steve. I have a question to ask.


    If you were a 737MAX8 pilot I'd have assumed that you would have paid the closest attention to the Lion Air crash especially in relation to the MCAS and the action required if such an event should occur on one of your flights. I'd have thought that on every takeoff since then you would be watching intently for any signs of a repeat and be ready to take the appropriate remedial measures - maybe even to the extent of having your hand poised and ready to hit the cutout switches. (remember that the Lion Air's crew on the previous flight acted swiftly when it happened and saved the day).

    So, my question is - is my assumption above correct.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    If there is so much technical difficulties with transmitting flight data to a land based database, how come many airlines are offering internet access to passengers. Aer Lingus are offering internet access on all their trans Atlantic flights.............Just wondering?
    Totally different use cases.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    So who actually is on the ground doing the investigation anyway? I can’t imagine that the Ethiopian Aviation Authority or criminal investigation bureau are well skilled in crash site survey and debris collection, let alone analysis of Boeing’s product and causes for the crash. Even if it’s their letterhead on the final report, who is, in practice, actually running the show?


  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can't there be a backup that autoejects if the flight sensors are out of whack and the plane reaches 50m?

    Obviously, sometimes it wouldn't work, or fire incorrectly. But still seems doable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    So who actually is on the ground doing the investigation anyway? I can’t imagine that the Ethiopian Aviation Authority or criminal investigation bureau are well skilled in crash site survey and debris collection, let alone analysis of Boeing’s product and causes for the crash. Even if it’s their letterhead on the final report, who is, in practice, actually running the show?

    Reports were Boeing and the US NTSB were en route within a few hours. Its normal enough to involve the airframes country of manufacture.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Can't there be a backup that autoejects if the flight sensors are out of whack and the plane reaches 50m?

    Obviously, sometimes it wouldn't work, or fire incorrectly. But still seems doable.

    The amount of times that a black box is irrecoverable negate the costs involved in developing this or similar for use in all planes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 833 ✭✭✭batman2000


    I was following a link from a previous post and this was embedded.To a non pilot it gave a good description of the MCAS system, suspected for the Lion Air disaster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQW0upkVus .

    Also, Boeing has said it will be issuing a software fix within weeks, but doesn't mention the Ethiopian crash, which is not surprising given they would not have all the data to support the same theory as the Lion Air.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/ethiopia-airplane-boeing/boeing-to-upgrade-software-in-737-max-8-fleet-in-weeks-idUSL1N20Z01K

    FAA even saying the 737Max is airworthy (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47533052) though 22 airlines have grounded their 737Max fleet (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/11/world/boeing-737-max-which-airlines.html)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Mebuntu wrote: »
    Great post, Irish Steve. I have a question to ask.


    If you were a 737MAX8 pilot I'd have assumed that you would have paid the closest attention to the Lion Air crash especially in relation to the MCAS and the action required if such an event should occur on one of your flights. I'd have thought that on every takeoff since then you would be watching intently for any signs of a repeat and be ready to take the appropriate remedial measures - maybe even to the extent of having your hand poised and ready to hit the cutout switches. (remember that the Lion Air's crew on the previous flight acted swiftly when it happened and saved the day).

    So, my question is - is my assumption above correct.

    In simple terms. no I am not a Max pilot, but as a result of a lot of work I did some 20 years ago, I became very much involved in areas of crew coordination and flight deck systems management, as well as some very specialised research work on new possible systems, (mostly for airbus), but I also did a lot of work on Boeing aircraft systems, for similar reasons, so had to be very much up to speed on what went on, and why, in both normal and non normal flight operations. What became very clear during that work was that it was essential to make sure that operating crews were fully aware of what was likely to happen in non normal events, and if we didn't provide very clear briefings, the research work results would be invalidated, as the crew didn't know how to respond to the event.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 667 ✭✭✭alexonhisown


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Safehands View Post
    Whatever one thinks of Ryanair, they are a very safety conscious airline. These incidents will give them the heeby jeebies, especially as so many airlines are grounding their 737 Max aircraft. Many people are rightly concerned about flying on these new planes, I suspect that Michael O'Leary will be having high level discussions about the wisdom of introducing these new aircraft at this time. He certainly won't be having photoshoots and advertising campaigns about their introduction.
    Difficult for them, and the crews who have to fly them.
    My thoughts are with the families of the deceased in Ethiopia.
    Grandeeod wrote: »
    I thought Ryanair were only receiving the first MAX at the end of April.

    Thats correct grandeeod, ryanair are receiving their first max 8 in april


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    If there is so much technical difficulties with transmitting flight data to a land based database, how come many airlines are offering internet access to passengers. Aer Lingus are offering internet access on all their trans Atlantic flights.............Just wondering?

    Because youtube on a transatlantic flight is non critical data and if it doesnt work properly for any reason it doesn't matter.

    One flight which crashes and there was sime network issue and people will be demandings flight recorders.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99


    How many AOA sensors on a B737 MAX? Will 1 erroneous sensor signal be enough to activate MCAS?

    Seems odd if it is designed to accept any 1 sensor approaching stall . I would have thought that all AOA sensors signals are continuously compared to each other to confirm similar AOA. And only when they are in agreement MCAS would be activated. If they are not providing similar AOA signal the flight deck would be alerted. Ideally you would have 3 AOA sensors talking to each other to identify the rogue I would have thought.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭RiseToMe


    Australia has now grounded the Max


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭ASOT


    The Ozzie's have grounded all Maxs now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭BZ


    ASOT wrote: »
    The Ozzie's have grounded all Maxs now.

    Singapore has also done the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    I heard on BBCR4 this morning that pilots were only given an hours training on a laptop to familiarise themselves with the new plane

    Is that correct?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,404 ✭✭✭plodder


    ASOT wrote: »
    The Ozzie's have grounded all Maxs now.
    That's very significant. Up to now it's been claimed that only developing countries without the same level of training and supervision as the developed world, and countries with a political axe to grind (China), have grounded it.

    Washington Post: Here’s why China and foreign carriers have grounded the 737 Max 8 and the U.S. and Europe haven’t
    I heard on BBCR4 this morning that pilots were only given an hours training on a laptop to familiarise themselves with the new plane
    The idea behind the MCAS system was apparently to make this plane perform the same as (or similar enough to) the previous generation, so pilots wouldn't need retraining. Looking very much like a false economy at this point in time - to say nothing of reputational damage to Boeing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    We live in an age of disinformation and distrust. If China grounds the aircraft, it's because of the trade war and a dozen op-eds say so and nowadays news reports include the speculation. If Europe grounds it tomorrow, it's because Airbus is their team. Etc. I wonder what the excuse will be for Australia or Singapore. I remember with fondness (or maybe it's rose tinted glasses, because things have got so bad) the days when decisions were made logically, sometime imperfectly, but usually by people acting in good faith.

    In any event, there is a strong feeling floating around that the 737 platform has reached and potentially split the edge of the envelope. The rumoured 797 probably can't come quickly enough for Boeing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Mebuntu


    In simple terms. no I am not a Max pilot, but as a result of a lot of work I did some 20 years ago, I became very much involved in areas of crew coordination and flight deck systems management, as well as some very specialised research work on new possible systems, (mostly for airbus), but I also did a lot of work on Boeing aircraft systems, for similar reasons, so had to be very much up to speed on what went on, and why, in both normal and non normal flight operations. What became very clear during that work was that it was essential to make sure that operating crews were fully aware of what was likely to happen in non normal events, and if we didn't provide very clear briefings, the research work results would be invalidated, as the crew didn't know how to respond to the event.


    My wording was not the best. I wasn't querying if you personally are a MAX8 pilot. What I was trying to ascertain with my question was - normally, on takeoff, flight crews are prepared for events such as an engine failure but do you think that current MAX8 flight crews would be specifically on high alert for MCAS and ready for immediate action at every takeoff since the Lion Air crash and what it has revealed so far- bearing in mind the likely fatal consequences.

    If this crash cause turns out to be the same as Lion Air then it would suggest that the crew either didn't know what to do or were not alert enough to act in time. The alternative is that it was something else that occurred or something else in addition to MCAS.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,784 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    We live in an age of disinformation and distrust. If China grounds the aircraft, it's because of the trade war and a dozen op-eds say so and nowadays news reports include the speculation. If Europe grounds it tomorrow, it's because Airbus is their team. Etc. I wonder what the excuse will be for Australia or Singapore. I remember with fondness (or maybe it's rose tinted glasses, because things have got so bad) the days when decisions were made logically, sometime imperfectly, but usually by people acting in good faith.

    In any event, there is a strong feeling floating around that the 737 platform has reached and potentially split the edge of the envelope. The rumoured 797 probably can't come quickly enough for Boeing.

    In fairness that "age" of disinformation and distrust has gone on for centuries.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    Mebuntu wrote: »
    My wording was not the best. I wasn't querying if you personally are a MAX8 pilot. What I was trying to ascertain with my question was - normally, on takeoff, flight crews are prepared for events such as an engine failure but do you think that current MAX8 flight crews would be specifically on high alert for MCAS and ready for immediate action at every takeoff since the Lion Air crash and what it has revealed so far- bearing in mind the likely fatal consequences.

    If this crash cause turns out to be the same as Lion Air then it would suggest that the crew either didn't know what to do or were not alert enough to act in time. The alternative is that it was something else that occurred or something else in addition to MCAS.

    I guess, that's very much the elephant in the room right now. Yes, in theory, after Lion Air, every Max pilot should have received adequate and in depth briefing notes to make sure that they are completely aware that Boeing have made significant changes to the aircraft's natural aerodynamics in order to make it fly like earlier generations. At the very least, that level of information should have been in the hands of the (guessing based on the numbers) 2000 or so pilots that are flying this variant of 737.

    Given that Boeing are saying they will be making changes based on the Lion Air incident, it is unfortunately very possible that some of the pilots currently flying the Max have not been made fully aware of the issues that are under review, and if they didn't know about it, then there is the very real potential for another accident of a similar nature, we're not going to know how similar until the black boxes from the Ethiopian aircraft are analysed in detail.

    In some respects, the issues are similar to the Air France 330 loss, the crew on that flight were caught unawares by a set of circumstances that were outside of their experience and training, and as a result, they stalled a basically serviceable aircraft into the sea from a great height, and it is unfortunately very possible that the ET crew were caught out by a situation that was outside of their experience and expectations. They had reported an issue, and stopped the climb at the lowest level they could while maintaining terrain clearance, to facilitate an early return to land, the downside of that being they were then left with very little "wriggle room" if the aircraft became difficult to control because of the instrument errors, even more so if the protection systems designed to help them actually started hindering them because of false information.

    I'd like to think I would have been able to recover it, but I've also been faced with (and set for others) similar scenarios in the simulator, with mixed results. As another example. the group i was working with (not rated on the type) were given a scenario in a 747 that required effectively a dead stick landing from 10,000 Ft, and we all managed some sort of landing on or close to the runway. One of the group was also an instructor, and he gave 3 type rated pilots the same scenario a few weeks later, and 2 of the 3 broke the aircraft in the air, because they were unable to fly the aircraft within it's limits without all the aids and guidance that they flew with all the time, because they'd never had to deal with a fundamental failure that meant they couldn't use all the aids to get back on the ground.

    Training, experience and the ability to think outside the box are all fundamental to survival in some cases, and (yes I know this is controversial) basic airmanship skills have been replaced and eroded by a slavish dependence on check lists and standard operating procedures. There are times when the check lists can't cover the scenario that's evolving, that's when the only thing that will keep you in the air is airmanship, experience and in depth knowledge of exactly what you can and cannot do with the aircraft, using whatever is still working and available to you.

    Modern commercial flying only uses about 20% of the available envelope that the aircraft can actually fly in, and going too close to the edge of the envelope may not be comfortable for the cabin occupants, but if it's the difference between survival or dying, I will choose the pilot that can use the entire envelope every time.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    Can I ask what I know is a somewhat naive question with regards to 'stalling' in general?

    As an example, if I was driving a manual car down an endless straight road at 30km per hour in 6th gear, the car would try to stall, as the speed versus the gear I'm in does not equate to normal driving and puts the engine and gearbox under strain. My solution, in this situation, is to drop the car into 2nd or 3rd gear, and continue driving the car, until I figure out what the issue was.

    Now, translate that to an aircraft. Should the instruments be telling me that the aircraft is about to stall, are there not some 'default' settings I can put the plane into that ensure that the aircraft will not stall, while I figure out what is going on? Be this flap setting x and engine power at y. I realise that I'm trying to simplify what is a very complex task, and ignoring other factors like altitude, but surely there exists a 'default' position in situations like the Lion Air and (possibly) this situation, where the pilots can agree on a setting, turn off MCAS and take some time to figure what is most likely going on?


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