Ireland v France [build up thread]

rrpc · 06-10-2015 11:10am

jones wrote: »

What are everyones thoughts on the holding something back theory? I've been confident so far in the group that we were building nicely which each game being a step up in intensity but then the italian game happens and we looked fairly clueless in attack. (Defence was still strong IMO)

Was it just a bad day at the office? Or is Joe really stepping up the mind games and we're literally holding all our tricks for the French game which by the players own admission has been what this group as been about since day 1. I was sure this was the case but given how tight the italian game was is it plausilbe that we wouldn't of started to use some of the "secret plays" for breathing space to ensure the win? I dont think we would of ever lost the game but its making me worry now that maybe we dont have anything up our sleeves for the french.

Thoughts?

I suspect that we go into each game with a specific game plan designed for the opposition. Murray Kinsella described what he thought we were trying to do in his analysis, but we didn't really carry it out very well.

Sometimes it was down to very good Italian defence; reading our plays and not buying dummy runners, but it was also down to poor execution on our part: Ball not going to hand, forcing an offload or being slightly out of position to take a pass. Keith Earls almost dropped the offload from Henshaw for his try and there were other occasions where a player came up too quickly or a dummy runner mistimed his run and got in the way.

We tried to use the maul, but Italy defended it very well and we didn't seem to try any of the variations that we've used before apart from late on when we got a good peel off the main maul but went to ground. I was surprised we didn't get a penalty for that one as it seemed to me that it was brought down by an Italian player.

Some have described it as a bad day at the office and I'd be inclined to go with that along with the fact that Italy had their A game out (we seemed to miss the point that this was a make or break game for them) and really put everything into it.

Akrasia · 06-10-2015 11:11am

heybaby wrote: »

My point was they play every game to win and to score as many points as possible , by their lofty standards they haven't played half as well but they have won their group and qualified.

We play every game to win too, and we have scored more points than france against the same opposition so I don't know what your big problem is.

Ireland were always aiming to peak at the end of thr group stage and into the QFs. So far we've come through with enough points difference to win the group by simply drawing the against France. France have to beat us so we already have an advantage before the game starts. we've got no injuries or suspensions and we haven't shown much to the opposition that they can use against us when they play us.

Ireland have also given game time to players at the positions that they are expected to cover if they are needed so we are sacrificing some performance for insurance against injury later on.

We got a wake-up call against Italy who were playing to their maximum ability, and we still won without getting to our full intensity, but it was the perfect warm-up game for the french match.

There is no need to panic. At all. France need to improve a lot more than us to give us a shock in the next game and all the evidence of the last 4 years are that PSA is not a tactically astute manager.

Del.Monte · 06-10-2015 11:15am

I'd like to believe that Ireland, like the All Blacks, are keeping their powder dry for the games that matter but I'm not convinced. Ireland's game against Italy is right up there as one of the worst performances of the tournament so far - alongside the All Blacks' games against Namibia and Georgia. Best match so far was Japan vs SA by a country mile.

06-10-2015 11:18am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Best match so far was Japan vs SA by a country mile.

Japan v SA was brilliant because it was just so unexpected and thrilling. Australia v England was an amazing spectacle also and probably the more enjoyable because of what was at stake. I really enjoyed NZ v Georgia too.

I think as far as the pool stages are concerned, this is the best world cup so far for me. I can't really remember much of 91, none of 87 but from 95 on wards this world cup has just been a quality of entertainment above.

kieranwaldron · 06-10-2015 11:21am

Irish_rat wrote: »

Heres my team wouldnt happen though :pac:
Kearney R

DKearney
Earls
Henshaw ,Payne
Sexton
Murray

--- Heaslip
Henry --- Hendo
POC
Toner

Ross
Best
McGrath

I would not recommend the above team because it leaves out O'Brien and O' Mahony in the back row. POM was the best Irish player on the field in the win over Italy.

lbj666 · 06-10-2015 11:26am

The ceiling for how well the All Blacks can play is far far higher than the Argies always and they hit it very often. New Zealand beat the Argies two weeks ago comfortably in the end if no ones noticed.

Thats why they are to be avoided, past record against them doesn't come into it. Every team would go out their way to avoid them in the 1/4 final even the french.

This whole attitude sure you'll have to beat the All Blacks at some stage in the tournament anyway doesn't fly at all. Remember the last team to beat the all blacks enroute to winning the Tournament was in 1995.

The Aussies and Wales are going full on next week to avoid the Saffas the following week.

thebaz · 06-10-2015 11:40am

.ak wrote: »

Destroyed us in what sense? What did SOB do wrong, exactly?

they were quicker to the loose , had more energy and generally the team going forward from the lose - we were completely outplayed by the Italian back row.
SOB was at best average , nowhere near his best , has he been back to his best since his serious injury ?

I'm not sure , hopefully Sunday he does just that

rrpc · 06-10-2015 11:48am

thebaz wrote: »

they were quicker to the loose , had more energy and generally the team going forward from the lose - we were completely outplayed by the Italian back row.
SOB was at best average , nowhere near his best , has he been back to his best since his serious injury ?

I'm not sure , hopefully Sunday he does just that

We seemed to under-resource our own rucks as a policy and I think the ref was not allowing anything that might be construed as slowing opposition ball down.

You do have to play the ref in that situation, so it's hard to point the finger at players for trying to keep their discipline.

molloyjh · 06-10-2015 11:58am

heybaby wrote: »

Based on current form, would you put your house on us beating the French?

Anyone who ever put their house on anyone beating France is just downright crazy. France are still a good side with some incredibly talented players. Nobody, not us or even the Kiwis, are ever guaranteed to beat them. Any game against France is a million miles away from being a foregone conclusion. Even at our best I wouldn't be putting my house on us beating France. This kind of crap is in no way constructive to any form of conversation or debate. Reign it in people, please. This game was always going to be a close run affair and little, if anything at all, has changed in that regard.

irelandrover · 06-10-2015 12:01pm

heybaby wrote: »

Based on current form, would you put your house on us beating the French?

If you had to bet your house on France or Ireland who would you bet on?

For me it would be Ireland.

.ak · 06-10-2015 12:06pm

thebaz wrote: »

they were quicker to the loose , had more energy and generally the team going forward from the lose - we were completely outplayed by the Italian back row.
SOB was at best average , nowhere near his best , has he been back to his best since his serious injury ?

I'm not sure , hopefully Sunday he does just that

I'm sorry but that doesn't really explain what SOB did wrong or to justify the criticism he's receiving.

Saying the Italians were better than our backrow because of what they did in the loose doesn't make sense either. We stood of them in defence which was a tactic, that allowed them to make easy yards. SOB was the best carrier on the pitch, for BOTH teams, so again if you're talking about loose play then we did better.

thebaz · 06-10-2015 12:08pm

.ak wrote: »

I'm sorry but that doesn't really explain what SOB did wrong or to justify the criticism he's receiving.

well lets just agree to disagree, you thought he was amazing, I thought he was average

.ak · 06-10-2015 12:10pm

thebaz wrote: »

well lets just agree to disagree, you thought he was amazing, I thought he was average

That's fair enough, just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

thebaz · 06-10-2015 12:13pm

.ak wrote: »

That's fair enough, just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

I tried to explain above why i thought he average , you disagree -
he was nowhere near his best, lacked the dynamism of a a SOB at his very best

leakyboots · 06-10-2015 12:34pm

.ak wrote: »

That's fair enough, just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Yes he did carry a lot but I don't know how effective he was... an average of less than 2m each time. People like Rory Best, Heaslip and POM carried more effectively in terms of ground made/defenders beaten.

I do think SOB was doing a lot of grunt work, but lately it seems like he's lost the explosive power he had before, to me anyway.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 12:38pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Yes he did carry a lot but I don't know how effective he was... an average of less than 2m each time. People like Rory Best, Heaslip and POM carried more effectively in terms of ground made/defenders beaten.

I do think SOB was doing a lot of grunt work, but lately it seems like he's lost the explosive power he had before, to me anyway.

According to the official stats SOB crossed the gain line far more often than anyone else. He did it 10 times and the next were Henderson and O'Connell with 6.

He was quietly effective with his carrying. If we'd got ourselves into better positions he might well have been more dangerous.

aimee1 · 06-10-2015 12:40pm

heybaby wrote: »

We should be playing to win, not to draw. We should have enough confidence in our ability to beat the French. Id love to see ireland beat France for the very first time in this competition, on current form it looks unlikely to me.

I never said we play for a draw. But there is things in our favour after our three wins. Ask Chris robshaw about this........

What worries me is the lack of accuracy. The players know if they lack intensity the game could be over before it starts really. So our poor accuracy v italy is a concern.

WarZ · 06-10-2015 12:42pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

According to the official stats SOB crossed the gain line far more often than anyone else. He did it 10 times and the next were Henderson and O'Connell with 6.

He was quietly effective with his carrying. If we'd got ourselves into better positions he might well have been more dangerous.

There you go.

Our most effective carrier was Sean O'Brien. Nearly double any other player in the pack.

As expected, people have been talking **** by saying SOB had a quiet game, he tackled more than POM who is a blindside and successfully carried triple that of POM. But SOB is a weak link alongside Heaslip?

Henderson showing that he could be a wrecking ball at 6 if he's making those sort of successes at second row. He's on par with POC in the second row (in fact he's playing better) now imagine him in his strongest position!

.ak · 06-10-2015 12:46pm

Are people expecting 5 or 10m carries in a test game? For a marked carrier he did extremely well. The benefit of getting of the gainline (even 2 or 3 meters) at this level is huge. There's very few players in this tournament that can achieve 10 carries like that in a game when they're marked.

He did his job well, what we did with the ball after that was pretty poor. Couple of his carries were massive and we took the wrong options of that.

I'm sorry, not aiming this at anyone in particular, but the analysis of his apparent poor game is pants - mostly just cliches without any actual breakdown of what he did wrong. Context is key, he was asked to be our primary carrier so that was his role for the game, and he succeeded.

I do know that IBF thought he wasn't great, as someone who plays OS a bit I'd like to hear his opinion on it.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 12:47pm

WarZ wrote: »

There you go.

Our most effective carrier was Sean O'Brien. Nearly double any other player in the pack.

As expected, people have been talking **** by saying SOB had a quiet game, he tackled more than POM who is a blindside and successfully carried triple that of POM. But SOB is a weak link alongside Heaslip?

Henderson showing that he could be a wrecking ball at 6 if he's making those sort of successes at second row. He's on par with POC in the second row (in fact he's playing better) now imagine him in his strongest position!

SOB and O'Mahony had the same number of tackles actually, according to two seperate sources.

O'Brien was not at his best. O'Mahony was one of our best forwards outside of his sinbinning. The pack should be unchanged going into next week injury-permitting. The real issue is the fitness of Kearney and Payne in the backs.

techdiver · 06-10-2015 12:47pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Yes he did carry a lot but I don't know how effective he was... an average of less than 2m each time. People like Rory Best, Heaslip and POM carried more effectively in terms of ground made/defenders beaten.

I do think SOB was doing a lot of grunt work, but lately it seems like he's lost the explosive power he had before, to me anyway.

I really think this is down to the fact that we were taking the ball at a standing start so often. We rarely took it flat and at speed!

leakyboots · 06-10-2015 12:48pm

WarZ wrote: »

There you go.

Our most effective carrier was Sean O'Brien. Nearly double any other player in the pack.

As expected, people have been talking **** by saying SOB had a quiet game, he tackled more than POM who is a blindside and successfully carried triple that of POM. But SOB is a weak link alongside Heaslip?

Henderson showing that he could be a wrecking ball at 6 if he's making those sort of successes at second row. He's on par with POC in the second row (in fact he's playing better) now imagine him in his strongest position!

Ease up there Jessie!

ESPN stats tell a different story - POM tackled as many times as SOB, made more metres with 3 less carries, beat more defenders, stole a lineout.

In the negative column he conceded a turnover and the obvious yellow.

SOB passed once more, POM conceded one more penalty than him.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=181996&league=164205

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 12:50pm

techdiver wrote: »

I really think this is down to the fact that we were taking the ball at a standing start so often. We rarely took it flat and at speed!

It's very difficult to take it flat and at speed when the ball is being slowed down and you're playing against an aggressive defense. We did well to get over the gain line as many times as we did. That Italy team would have pushed a lot of teams in the tournament if they played the way we did, we never should have tried to go through so many phases.

WarZ · 06-10-2015 12:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

SOB and O'Mahony had the same number of tackles actually, according to two seperate sources.

O'Brien was not at his best. O'Mahony was one of our best forwards outside of his sinbinning. The pack should be unchanged going into next week injury-permitting. The real issue is the fitness of Kearney and Payne in the backs.

Centre is a massive issue. I'd prefer to have Henshaw defending the 13 channel against Basteraud than Earls (who is a better wing anyway), if Payne is out I'd like to see 12.Fitzgerald 13.Henshaw.

Although admittedly its changing the centre partnership again.

leakyboots · 06-10-2015 12:50pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

According to the official stats SOB crossed the gain line far more often than anyone else. He did it 10 times and the next were Henderson and O'Connell with 6.

He was quietly effective with his carrying. If we'd got ourselves into better positions he might well have been more dangerous.

Have you a link for those stats? Not doubting them, would just like to know where I can access them. I'm usually not one for pinning stats on players to justify performances, but it's nice to have access to more than one source .

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 12:52pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Have you a link for those stats? Not doubting them, would just like to know where I can access them. I'm usually not one for pinning stats on players to justify performances, but it's nice to have access to more than one source .

The ones for the gainline success are the ones from the official rugby world cup site. http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/match/14228#stats

Not sure where else they have a similar statistic. You're right though, statstics certainly do not justify performances.

WarZ · 06-10-2015 12:53pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Ease up there Jessie!

ESPN stats tell a different story - POM tackled as many times as SOB, made more metres with 3 less carries, beat more defenders, stole a lineout.

In the negative column he conceded a turnover and the obvious yellow.

SOB passed once more, POM conceded one more penalty than him.

I am talking about effective carries. And ESPN obviously updated their stats as he was down for 3 tackles. He carried less (that's not good in a game we were crying out for carriers), how many infringements compared to SOB? How many yellows compared to SOB? How many turn overs compared to SOB?

You will SOB was a more effective carrier, carried more, gave away less penalties, was not sin binned and was not turned over.

But sure, SOB was awful and POM was brilliant.

.ak · 06-10-2015 12:55pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Have you a link for those stats? Not doubting them, would just like to know where I can access them. I'm usually not one for pinning stats on players to justify performances, but it's nice to have access to more than one source .

They're on the rwc site

techdiver · 06-10-2015 12:55pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's very difficult to take it flat and at speed when the ball is being slowed down and you're playing against an aggressive defense. We did well to get over the gain line as many times as we did. That Italy team would have pushed a lot of teams in the tournament if they played the way we did, we never should have tried to go through so many phases.

I understand this to an extent and the speed of ball was an issue, but if you look back, the depth of our passing to static players was very poor, even taking into consideration the Italian defense. This allowed the Italian defense to rush up and smother our ball carriers, thus losing ground.

On a positive note, having rewatched the highlights on ITV last night it looked like Ireland were in complete control of the game from start to finish despite the closeness of the score line. Apart from the POM try saving tackle, we never looked close to being breached. So at the very least our defense is functioning as required. If we can keep that level of defense up, we will be difficult for any team to break down.

I imagine, we won't do much for the neutral spectator, but who gives a ****!

leakyboots · 06-10-2015 1:02pm

WarZ wrote: »

I am talking about effective carries. And ESPN obviously updated their stats as he was down for 3 tackles. He carried less (that's not good in a game we were crying out for carriers), how many infringements compared to SOB? How many yellows compared to SOB? How many turn overs compared to SOB?

You will SOB was a more effective carrier, carried more, gave away less penalties, was not sin binned and was not turned over.

But sure, SOB was awful and POM was brilliant.

I didn't say SOB was awful nor was POM brilliant.

POM carried 3 times less than SOB. But still carried 11 times. Jamie Heaslip carried 9 times, making one offload, conceded one penalty, stole no lineouts but made 7 tackles, more than the other two. Where does he rank for you?

What's your criteria for effective carries?

I think they underperformed as a unit myself. I'd like to see Chris Henry on earlier or possibly start. POM will cop flak for the yellow, but I don't think that should overshadow what was a reasonably good game from him. My comment on SOB is just that he seems to lack the effectiveness of before.

heybaby · 06-10-2015 1:07pm

aimee1 wrote: »

I never said we play for a draw. But there is things in our favour after our three wins. Ask Chris robshaw about this........

What worries me is the lack of accuracy. The players know if they lack intensity the game could be over before it starts really. So our poor accuracy v italy is a concern.

That lack of accuracy and intensity was there in the two warm up losses to England and Wales yet at the time the excuse was they were Just friendlies, I don't buy it. Yes we beat Romania and Canada but we were expected to. Currently Australia, Wales are both purring along nicely. The All Blacks beat the Argies and will go far in the competition even though they've not been perfect. Our form over the 4 warm games and 3 WC games isn't anything to get excited about. Unless we play with an intensity reminiscent of the All Black game we almost Won, the French will roll us over.

WarZ · 06-10-2015 1:09pm

If Payne is out who are everyone's centre pairing???

Biggest question than back row to be honest

vienne86 · 06-10-2015 1:10pm

Got back from the match late last night, and am surprised enough to read the criticisms of SOB here. He maybe wasn't as dynamic as he can be, but it was a dour game, and I thought he carried really well. POM had a decent game, but I could have killed him for getting carded.

As regards English supporters maybe supporting Ireland now that their race is run, there were certainly a lot of green jerseys with English accents around in Stratford, but they may not be converts.

Special mention has to go to the two lone Italian supporters in our section who were right behind me - yelled for Italy from beginning to end, and were great with the banter.

Regarding Sunday, I hope we have Robshaw and Payne in the centre, that Rob is OK for FB, and I would leave 6-8 exactly as in the Italy match, even though Heaslip will not get a rest. And Earls has to play on the wing IMO.

.ak · 06-10-2015 1:14pm

Well, hopefully Payne is fit.

I'm not a massive fan of earls there being honest, thought he started well but then got a bit lost on Sunday.

However, I think switching them again if Payne doesn't make it would be mad. Too much switching going on.

Although personally I think cave or fitz would suit the French game more than earls, but still wouldn't risk another switch.

total former · 06-10-2015 1:14pm

vienne86 wrote: »

Regarding Sunday, I hope we have Robshaw and Payne in the centre, that Rob is OK for FB, and I would leave 6-8 exactly as in the Italy match, even though Heaslip will not get a rest. And Earls has to play on the wing IMO.

Curveball!

If Payne is out, Joe will go with Henshaw and Earls. I don't think it's the best partnership but I can't see him involving anyone else.

Pudsy33 · 06-10-2015 1:18pm

WarZ wrote: »

If Payne is out who are everyone's centre pairing???

Biggest question than back row to be honest

It'll be Earls, but I'd rather move him onto the wing instead of Dave Kearney and play Fitz or Cave in the midfield.

NoelJ · 06-10-2015 1:27pm

Pudsy33 wrote: »

It'll be Earls, but I'd rather move him onto the wing instead of Dave Kearney and play Fitz or Cave in the midfield.

I don't think he'll play Earls against that midfield. Not sure if he'll play Fitz or Cave though.

thebaz · 06-10-2015 1:30pm

Pudsy33 wrote: »

It'll be Earls, but I'd rather move him onto the wing instead of Dave Kearney and play Fitz or Cave in the midfield.

Given the size of the French midfield, I'd really worry with earls , anyway I'm sure Payne and Henshaw will start , with Bowe and Kearney or Earls on the wings

WarZ · 06-10-2015 1:47pm

If Bowe is a definite starter in Joe's eyes then Earls has to be ahead of D.Kearney. While D.Kearney is in great form Earls on the wing has proven time and time again to be lethal.

I can understand starting Bowe, he's just one of those players that we know can be world class on his day.

Pudsy33 · 06-10-2015 1:47pm

NoelJ wrote: »

I don't think he'll play Earls against that midfield. Not sure if he'll play Fitz or Cave though.

If Payne is out, who do you think would play centre? If not Earls, Fitzgerald, or Cave.

Magico Gonzalez · 06-10-2015 2:40pm

I would prefer to see Henshawe and Cave with Earls and Bowe as wings. Players in their best positions. Cave is solid enough.

JF100 · 06-10-2015 2:41pm

Afternoon All: worried faces all round then ... and why not? It always came down to this one anyway...
The Froggies knew it too & they have picked a squad to get past us.
Our team will be:
RK
DK
Payne
Henshaw
Earls
Sexton
Murray
McGrath
Best
Ross
POC
Henderson
POM
SOB
JH

There should not be so much drama over the selection. The only problem is that the Frenchies know what to expect as well.
***
Stats Question: Can anyone tell me the last time Ireland came from behind in the second half to win a match?

total former · 06-10-2015 2:47pm

JF100 wrote: »

Stats Question: Can anyone tell me the last time Ireland came from behind in the second half to win a match?

vs Scotland, August 2015

JF100 · 06-10-2015 2:58pm

Thanks TF; appreciated.
Not so long ago then... albeit in a non-competitive fixture.

total former · 06-10-2015 3:05pm

JF100 wrote: »

Thanks TF; appreciated.
Not so long ago then... albeit in a non-competitive fixture.

A more interesting answer might be the 2014 6N game vs France, we were a point down at half time.

Can't remember any others.

06-10-2015 3:10pm

JF100 wrote: »

Thanks TF; appreciated.
Not so long ago then... albeit in a non-competitive fixture.

Well on the other hand, we have had leads at half time and extended them by full time so we've out scored teams later on in games also.

Celly Smunt · 06-10-2015 3:11pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well on the other hand, we have had leads at half time and extended them by full time so we've out scored teams later on in games also.

We've also had leads which we then lost in the second half against strong teams also so the leading by half-time scenario is all much of a muchness really.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2015 3:14pm

In games where the stadium runs out of Heineken before half time however Irish sides have a 100% record. As fans we have a big role to play.

06-10-2015 3:19pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In games where the stadium runs out of Heineken before half time however Irish sides have a 100% record. As fans we have a big role to play.

Yes, but unless everyone was back to their seats by kick off, who cares who won.

dub_skav · 06-10-2015 3:32pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In games where the stadium runs out of Heineken before half time however Irish sides have a 100% record. As fans we have a big role to play.

Edit: Just realised there is a double meaning to the picture I chose, how ironic.

Ireland v France [build up thread]

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