Karnali V Burn

yomchi · 08-10-2010 6:41pm #1

Any opinions lads on which would be best. I have about two and half months maybe three months experience at this stage. Looking for something with edges that won't crucify me too much at the moment.

thetonynator · 08-10-2010 9:14pm

the burn is nice, dont know about the other one myself . . .

adrianshanahan · 08-10-2010 9:53pm

Hey,

Why restrict yourself to just two boats one of which is substandard and the other is vastly overrated...

A

Truley · 09-10-2010 4:49pm

Haven't paddled either but I think the Karnali is an absolute tank. Burn would probably be more suitable for Irish rivers.

To be honest I'm surprised you are going down the creeker route this soon. You realise you will be seriously limiting what kind of kayaking you can do? You won't be able to do much surfing, playboating etc

wobbles · 09-10-2010 5:39pm

a first boat should be a good all rounder. A nice river runner thats capable of up to grade 3 and can surf a little is what you should be looking at. From there, you will see what types of kayaking you like, and then go down the route of getting either an out and out playboat, or a full blown creeker or whatever area you decide.

Buying a creeker now means your kind of limited to what you can paddle, and most irish rivers you will breeze down. This sounds great, but for a beginner, you need to push your abilitys every time you paddle, and become a much stronger paddler. Breezing down a river wil give you confidence without the skills to back it up, and could lead to a serious beat down (or worse).

At the end of the day, its your decision, but just becuase everyone else in yor group paddles a creeker, doesnt mean you have to. As paddlers, we are a lazy bunch and the easiest way is always taken, so creekers everythere. But that may not be the best way to learn

yomchi · 09-10-2010 5:57pm

Thanks folks for that, I should have said, that playboat I took the beating in on the Boyne is being "permenantly loaned" to me as the guy who had it is kinda dipping out of Kayaking so I'm storing it for him and in a few months I might start giving him a few quid off it, so I have a playboat to be bashed in as I encounter faster flowing water.

Before I got the chance of that playboat I was going to get a Liquid Logic Hoss which is a river runner/playboat but now I have one sorted I'm looking for a decent river runner. There is a Burn and a Karnali up on Irishwhitewater.com and I'm sussing out both. I know the Karnali is big but I'm not too small myself. I paddled a G3 a few weeks back and I got lost in the thing, it was like a submarine!

I'm doing my role training and ferry gliding work in the player so hopefully that should make me 'edge aware'

yomchi · 09-10-2010 6:00pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Hey,

Why restrict yourself to just two boats one of which is substandard and the other is vastly overrated...

A

Hi mate,
You reckon the Karnali is substandard? Any reasons why?

Thanks!

ozt9vdujny3srf · 09-10-2010 11:12pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Hey,

Why restrict yourself to just two boats one of which is substandard and the other is vastly overrated...

A

Adrian every so often you come out with a soundbite like this without writing any backup whatsoever.

For anyone trying to get boat advice from this thread, i suggest you put more credence in posters who actually have an argument to back up their opinion.

ec18 · 10-10-2010 10:34am

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Hey,

Why restrict yourself to just two boats one of which is substandard and the other is vastly overrated...

A

and why do you think that the burn is over rated?

yomchi · 10-10-2010 7:35pm

Hi guys, paddled the Karnali today down the liffey and boy what a nice boat. It's really what I need right now. It is forgiving but not so much so that you can ignore your edges, on some sweep stroke combos it reminded me not to get too cocky and wet my ears for me

I also managed two rolls in it which was sweet. Lots of ferry gliding today at the bottom of Palmerston weir after a 2meg release and the difference between that and the playboat was immense.

The biggest advantage for me in it was that it gave me time to think. If the flow caught me and gave me a kick over it allowed me time to pop in a brace, with the playboat it was no questions asked it was just over you go. So with that in mind I think the Karnali is ideal for what I'm looking for right now. Read lots of great reviews on them too.

ozt9vdujny3srf · 10-10-2010 8:34pm

Karnali is a boat built for class IV and V steep Creeking more than anything else. I'm not sure if paddling one would be that conducive to developing skills if you are only gonna be on the Liffey and the Boyne for the next while. Personally I'd never recommend it as a first boat.

thetonynator · 10-10-2010 9:28pm

Truley wrote: »

You won't be able to do much surfing, playboating etc

Or k1 marathon racing!!!

yomchi · 10-10-2010 10:38pm

Picked this up on a lads blog from the states;

Why You Might Want a Different Boat (e.g. a Burn or an Ammo)

* The Karnali doesn't have a lot of bow rocker relative to its length; if you're hitting big rock smears or pillows, you've got more hull to drive over the feature.
* If you suffer from stubby legs syndrome and you're going to do some gruesome hikes with your kayak, you might opt for the Burn, with its smaller length:volume ratio.

What does this all add up to? A phenomenal river-runner. A great fleet boat. A stable platform for paddlers to advance their skills without worrying about whether they're going to catch an edge or flail around on an eddy line.

If you frequently find yourself saying things like, "I wish my boat were more stable, easier to roll, faster, less prone to getting messed around by small features, and more predictable", this might be the perfect boat for you.

In short, the Karnali lives up to its goals:

A truly forgiving, high volume river runner that has such a predictable ride it will keep you inspired to get back out on the water and progress from your very first days to long into your paddling life.

With a remarkably stable hull, soft, round edge profile and generous rocker, the Karnali puts your mind at ease and allows you to concentrate on the river ahead rather than what's happening underneath you.

KenHy · 10-10-2010 11:27pm

Given that he recommends other Pyrana boats if you dont want a Karnali, I'd reckon whoever that is has some professional interest in selling Pyrana boats!

I'd generally concur with those who dont think it's a good boat for beginners, but if all you ever want to do is go for a nice relaxing afternoon paddle on rivers like the boyne and liffey, than go for it.

However if you do want to push yourself to harder rivers get something else. I'd recommend looking at some type of all-rounder/river runner. Ones to look at would be the Jackson Fun Series, the Dagger Axiom (the replacement of the GT), Pyrana Vraum (new boat they have made) or the Pyrana Zone (I think I remember you saying you were in WWKC, they have a few of these which you could try!). An Ammo might also fit what you are looking for. If you look second hand you'll have even more options. Try the forums at irishfreestyle.com. Feel free to ask about any particular model.

Truley · 11-10-2010 12:04am

Right now it may feel great to have a boat so unresponsive and forgiving in small water. However, you're skills will simply not be as sharp as they would be from learning in a smaller boat. Even when your skills do improve, rivers like the Boyne and the Liffey will bore you senseless because there is nothing fun you can do in a creeker. They aren't designed for small rivers.

Just three weeks ago we had two complete beginners out on the inney, one in a Dagger Outlaw and another in a CFS. The guy in the outlaw took two swims within half an hour while the CFS breezed (smugly) on through with no problems. However today looking at the two of them, it's clear the one in the playboat has improved significantly, he really understands the importance of edging, leaning forward, staying alert. We're still trying to teach they guy in the creeker how to break in and out of eddies, he's incredibly slack and quite frankly getting away with murder. We're planning on making them swap boats next week

The playboat you paddled was obviously too small for you, a better fitting one wont beat you up half as much. Even when it does, right now you are in a safe place to take your swims so who cares. You've already learned to roll, you have access to so many awesome little rivers and playspots. So much potential to sharpen up your skills and have fun, but you need to get out of your comfort zone. Learning in a creeker will make you lazy, I guarantee it.

yomchi · 11-10-2010 10:40am

Thanks for that guys it's all sound advice, I'm going to have a look around so before making a definitive decision on it.

The playboat I have is a large one and I fit comfortably into it tbh, the reason I had such a bad day in it was because it was my first time in it and the first river trip as well so it was always going to be a pain. I intend doing a lot of work in the playboat as well, I just tried out the Karnali to suss out a good river runner for myself in the future.

Thanks again

ozt9vdujny3srf · 11-10-2010 11:09am

Which make / model / size of playboat was it exactly? Worth noting that probably the most important thing to look out for in a boat making you are within it's weight range.

waterdogadventu · 11-10-2010 12:03pm

Worth noting that probably the most important thing to look out for in a boat making you are within it's weight range.

Good Advice.

If your in a club, try and paddle as many boats as you can this winter season, on as many different types of rivers suitable to you ability, as you can. Talk to people on the bank and ask there opinion on their boats. Most paddlers who know what there on about will be honest with you. i.e 'Yeah its a great boat, but.....' e.t.c.
Steer clear of the 'Ah thats a rubbish boat' brigade.
All boats have there good and bad bits. same goes for gear.

Its finding what works for you the best thats important.

yomchi · 24-10-2010 6:32pm

So decided against the Karnali in the end, starting to get the hang of the playboat a little bit better. Visited sluice today for a few hours for a bit of messing around in the PB and it did make me work a lot more and I felt the hips working in it. When I was out in the Karnali last week (a club boat) it was very enjoyable but you definitely don't get that experience the PB gives you.

Some lads were out doing some level 3 assessments so it was good to see them do their stuff.

Might opt for a burn in the future but for now the PB is worth mastering!

ozt9vdujny3srf · 25-10-2010 5:52am

yomchi wrote: »

So decided against the Karnali in the end, starting to get the hang of the playboat a little bit better. Visited sluice today for a few hours for a bit of messing around in the PB and it did make me work a lot more and I felt the hips working in it. When I was out in the Karnali last week (a club boat) it was very enjoyable but you definitely don't get that experience the PB gives you.

Some lads were out doing some level 3 assessments so it was good to see them do their stuff.

Might opt for a burn in the future but for now the PB is worth mastering!

First time I've seen that acronym :P

I pretty much did most of my learning in a Dagger Crazy 88(Short low volume with sharp rails), and only bought a creek boat when I became afraid of breaking my legs running scrapy irish Grade 4 in a play boat. My style of paddling at the time was once described as "lurching from disaster to disaster". This stems from the fact that when you are on water that you find pushy in a playboat, you spend more time trying to stay upright than you do trying to style a line!

It really is horses for courses, playboats for playboating and creekboats for river running.

The ideal (I believe) for anyone learning the sport on the liffey and the boyne is a river running playboat that veers towards play,like a jackson fun, pyranha inazone or dagger rx.

yomchi · 25-10-2010 5:06pm

Yep I hear you, I have constant access to the play boat now anyway as the lad who owns it has more or less packed it in hence I'm looking for a river runner for long days out. The play boat is just great to set up for understanding edges and through that you learn so much about the flow. In the Karnali last week I was bobbing over eddie lines and cutting through fast flows quite easily. In the play boat at Sluice (just down from sluice) I was getting caught in eddie lines and the angle of entry had to be more acute so your forced into being aware of what you're doing. Good call on parking the Karnali for this type of practice.

Just for laughs, my first run through sluice was quite a Frank Spencer moment

I was heading into the first eddie at the top to map a line out, the flow was so strong I missed the eddie and hit a tree I capsized but t-rescued pretty quick got up and lost me paddle, headed for another tree and pulled off the sin of all sins and grabbed the tree :eek: Ger who has instructed me since my first day had to run sluice and chase my paddle after signaling that I was grand where I was. He came back around, but by that time some tourists had shown up and thought the whole thing was quite dangerous or something, it was great craic! We had to raft down sluice which was refreshing :cool: He's a class instructor and knows exactly what to say at the right moments

adrianshanahan · 25-10-2010 7:49pm

Byron Fierce Butterfly wrote: »

It really is horses for courses, playboats for playboating and creekboats for river running.

Now think about what you said there!

Truley · 25-10-2010 8:11pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Now think about what you said there!

Makes sense to me. Generally I would say playboat for playing and running small rivers (< class 3) Ideally we should all have a playboat, a creeker, an inbetweener ooh and a surf boat too while we're at it. Though it's not financially viable for most :pac:

adrianshanahan · 25-10-2010 8:43pm

Truley wrote: »

Makes sense to me. Generally I would say playboat for playing and running small rivers (< class 3) Ideally we should all have a playboat, a creeker, an inbetweener ooh and a surf boat too while we're at it. Though it's not financially viable for most :pac:

Well sure why not...lol

My point was that for allot of people they need neither a creek boat or a playboat for what they actually paddle. As they neither freestyle or run rivers that justify use of a full on creek boat ( think Nomad / Jefe etc)

There is a fantastic range of boats like Fluids new Detox, Wavesport's Diesel just to name a couple that are aimed at what most people actually need from a boat.

There are few things sader than seen folks thinking they need a full on creek boat to tackle the best the liffey / boyne / Wicklow(Barring the obvious) has to throw at them.

Adrian

ozt9vdujny3srf · 25-10-2010 10:33pm

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Well sure why not...lol

My point was that for allot of people they need neither a creek boat or a playboat for what they actually paddle. As they neither freestyle or run rivers that justify use of a full on creek boat ( think Nomad / Jefe etc)

There is a fantastic range of boats like Fluids new Detox, Wavesport's Diesel just to name a couple that are aimed at what most people actually need from a boat.

There are few things sader than seen folks thinking they need a full on creek boat to tackle the best the liffey / boyne / Wicklow(Barring the obvious) has to throw at them.

Adrian

Nice of you to actually trying to explain your condescending drive by one-liner this time Adrian. Although how anyone was supposed to extrapolate your "explanation" from it is anyone's guess.

I have a couple of points:

You are not addressing the line of my post you have quoted in the context of the rest of the post, where I suggest the OP gets a river-running play boat, as in this case it would suit him perfectly
I am trying to point out that river running in an out an out play boat is neither easy nor is it good for your paddling, and that doing easy rivers in an out an out creek boat isn't such a great idea either (boring and doesn't help with skills development). They are designed for two ends of the whitewater spectrum and neither are great in the middle ground.
How nice of you to look down on people who use creek boats on Grade 3 / Grade 4-. Am I to paddle a Jefe for the first time when I hit Norway?It's a different style of paddling to flat hulled boats that you have to learn somewhere. Am I to own every class of boat to make sure I am always paddling something perfectly appropriate to the water I am on?

(As an irrelevant aside, I'm not sure if its just a general trait of yours, but this is the second time you have shot off a throw away comment at one of my posts, perhaps do you know me in real life and have a bone to pick?)

wet-paint · 26-10-2010 11:09pm

Just addressing your second point there, running rivers in a playboat is a lot harder that in a creeker, and made me a much better boater for it. Everything is easier in a river boat once you can pull it off in a playboat.

That's good for your paddling skills.

ozt9vdujny3srf · 27-10-2010 12:37am

wet-paint wrote: »

Just addressing your second point there, running rivers in a playboat is a lot harder that in a creeker, and made me a much better boater for it. Everything is easier in a river boat once you can pull it off in a playboat.

That's good for your paddling skills.

I guess we'll have to differ there because I did a lot of river-running in a playboat, and I think it was bad for my paddling.

irishlostboy · 27-10-2010 9:26am

first-off, there are more than two boat types.

playboat- star, molan, project, etc.
you probably need one of these to win freestyle comps.

playboatish- fun, flirt, crazy 88, etc
these still do the freestyle moves, but will probably be a little more survivable on rivers.

gp/ river runner- axiom, detox, ina-zone etc.
these excel at nothing but are great for a bit of everything in moderate conditions.

river runner- mamba, deisel, karnali.
these are built for speed and tracking, and for not being swamped by high volume water.

creeker- solo, cfs, habitat, etc.
these are for hitting rocks and for taking big drops.
surf kayaks, flatwater touring kayaks and sea kayaks are left out as not relevent.

none of these boats will paddle for you. all of these boats are good at what they were designed to do. there is a fair amount of "blending" between definitions of these boats, but that will depend on your personal ability and the rivers you are paddling. personally i will happily use my fluid flirt right up the spectrum of difficulty to the point where ankle or spinal injury become a risk. my paddling is far better for it, compared to if i was sitting in my cfs all the time.
personally, i do agree with the idea that you get a boat most suited to what you will mostly be paddling, and increase your skillset until it is up to the standard of the water you are paddling rather than other options. if your local runs are boyne, liffey, and avonmore in normal levels, you do not need a creeker. if you want a creeker, that is fine.
the arguement of "what bout when i go to norway" is a nonsensical one. IF you are going to norway, you are probably experienced enough to not need to debate what first boat you should get here on boards. if not, then i think you have bigger problems than what boat to buy.

to put my pennysworth into the original topic. neither the burn or the karnali are true creekers. they are both river runners. (flat hulls) the burn is more creeker than the karnali. the karnali is more suited to punching lines on high volume than it is to gradient. neither is ideal for large drops or rock impacts. neither is designed to be a first boat for moderate water.
this is an age-old debate. going back as far as playboats go back. i remember when the pyranha stunt-bat was the playboat. when the storm and attak came out, it was said you could no way run rivers in them. once i saw the shot of simon westgarth freewheeling off a waterfall in a dagger vertigo on the cover of playboater mag it really knocked that idea into a cocked hat.
if there was a perfect boat, there would be no other boats, and if there was a recipie for being a great boater there wouldn't be so many oppinions on what is the correct way forward.

Karnali V Burn

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