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We need to talk about Huawei...or do we?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    BTW I wouldn't say that OpenEir copy OpenReach. Telcos aren't technology innovators, they buy systems, plug them together and build services.

    You'll find similar or identical equipment in all of them. It's just a random choice of whatever vendor happened to have the best gear at the best price when they were shopping.

    That Huawei gear used for FTTC here isn't unusual. They're one of the largest suppliers of that kind of stuff.

    From what I gather the deployment of Huawei FTTC here is also a better spec than most of BT's stuff as it was a little later and also had to compete more directly with UPC which was at the time offering faster base speeds than Virgin in the UK. That's drove deployment of vectoring to get the speeds up to vaguely competitive with cable.

    There's been a lot of accusations about Huawei but no smoking gun. The other side of it is that if they were selling compromised equipment their business could be wiped out. Would they really do that? I have my doubts.

    If there's an issue, I would like to see evidence not just people making political accusations. Huawei make very good and innovative equipment that's been amongst the best out there in a whole range of areas in recent years.

    ...... and if they did have compromised equipment, do you know for certain that any of the alternative suppliers have equipment that is not compromised?

    Political football!

    Is there really much difference to Ireland, for instance, which equipment manufacturer is used from a security point of view?
    Do you trust the likes of Trump more than any of his equivalents in other countries?

    IMO, if one is 'at it' then they all are to a greater or lesser extent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Oddly enough the US policy against Huawei is mostly beneficial to two very large European companies : Ericsson and Nokia.

    There aren't really many US companies in the that sector anymore.

    Lucent was the last very big US one but that was acquired by Alcatel and they were subsequently acquired by Nokia.

    Motorola used to be big in mobile telecommunications technology but they faded away and Qualcomm pursued proprietary technology CDMA One / 2000 and EV-DO that's never been used in Europe as it's not GSM based.

    So really if Huawei is spying you're looking at business from European telecoms going back to their traditional suppliers which are all European.

    Samsung is also quite big in that area. 3's 4G network here for example is based on their gear.

    ..

    The biggest exposure to Huawei in Ireland is FTTC and FTTH. Eir uses Huawei DSLAMs for the fibre to cabinet services and both Eir and Siro use them for fibre to home.

    The major alternative supplier there is Nokia, Alcatel is pretty big in that type of technology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Nokia may be Finnish but they've got a big US presence via Alcatel via Bell Labs. No question of them being "courteous" to three letter agencies so the US won't consider them filthy foreigners.



    Still curious why AL lost out on the VDSL trials, though one can guess it might have been price.


  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    Looking at a FTTH deployment for a minute, for example, SIRO. I assume that only the OLT and ONT are Huawei. These would be providing a layer 2 service, bringing a set of customers back to a given provider.

    These devices would only have management IP addresses in the management plane, which is non-routable to catvideos. Even a VPN could therefore not be established off the Huawei devices to some nefarious spy server.

    I'm sure there's an IP/MPLS network behind the GPON network, in order to deliver L2VPN ethernet services to the providers (of in smaller networks, this could be done in native layer 2) but this would likely be Juniper, Cisco, etc.

    I honestly don't see how a GPON network could phone home with user data.

    Ideas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    I suspect they'd do it through their own management units in the POPs not directly from the last mile gear.


    All the NGA aggs are public, thats not at cab level but one up at exchange area. Can't be sure who they are.
    PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION
    20/tcp filtered ftp-data
    21/tcp filtered ftp
    22/tcp filtered ssh
    135/tcp filtered msrpc
    139/tcp filtered netbios-ssn
    179/tcp open tcpwrapped
    445/tcp filtered microsoft-ds
    Aggressive OS guesses: Alcatel-Lucent 7750 Service Router (SR OS 9.0.R9) (91%), 3Com SuperStack 3 Switch 3870 (90%), FireBrick FB2700 firewall (87%), OpenBSD 3.5 (86%), Epson Stylus Pro 400 printer (86%).....

    7750 lines up though external profiling is NOT reliable.


    Its also worth noting that Huawei were doing trials in conjunction with the Eir SMC for vectoring and supervectoring on live cabs meaning OE were probably providing direct access.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    ED E wrote: »
    Nokia may be Finnish but they've got a big US presence via Alcatel via Bell Labs. No question of them being "courteous" to three letter agencies so the US won't consider them filthy foreigners.



    Still curious why AL lost out on the VDSL trials, though one can guess it might have been price.

    Almost certainly price and the fact that BT had success with them as a supplier for FTTC deployments with a previous generation of their gear. The Huawei cabinets seemed to be a perfect fit for Eir's access network - small, unobtrusive cabinets that were designed to plug straight into the existing junction cabinets.

    AL had been providing small MSANs to the trial that seemed to replace the PCP and included voice services. I'm not sure if they were also integrating into some replacement for the AL E10 PSTN exchanges.

    I also got the impression that the trial services around Dundrum were looking for a combined solution that would have replaced the traditional telephone exchange equipment with cabinets. The same was true of early BT deployment.

    However, the solution the ultimately opted for just abandoned the idea of replacing voice services with cabinet deployed equipment and concentrated entirely on VDSL and a future FTTH rollout. I would assume POTS just became an increasingly obsolete irrelevance as it can be done by VoIP and abandon dial tone services entirely and customers are abandoning landline services for voice anyway.

    If PSTN dial tone services are retained, most customers won't be using them so, you could feasibly deploy some much smaller scale AL or Ericsson solution for the people who insist on having old school phone lines. In the meantime they'll likely just use the existing equipment for as long as it's useful life allows and route the traffic over VoIP behind the scenes.

    During that trial period a lot of traditional telcos including BT and Eir finally realised they were actually no longer phone companies and their core business was now broadband.

    Eircom was always fairly conservative about new suppliers. Their core voice network has been using mostly Ericsson for example since before 1957.

    Huawei has established a good track record and they're coming in at good pricing. That's why they're getting projects and managing to prise old telecoms companies away from their historical suppliers.

    If there's a big issue with Huawei, their problem is their customers are largely old, conservative, legacy telcos.

    That's why I'm not convinced that they're up to anything. It would absolutely decimate their business if they were and I'm sure they know that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    ED E wrote: »
    I suspect they'd do it through their own management units in the POPs not directly from the last mile gear.


    All the NGA aggs are public, thats not at cab level but one up at exchange area. Can't be sure who they are.



    7750 lines up though external profiling is NOT reliable.


    Its also worth noting that Huawei were doing trials in conjunction with the Eir SMC for vectoring and supervectoring on live cabs meaning OE were probably providing direct access.

    Yes, it is usually the case that major vendors in a network will require VMs running back end provisioning/management services, such as syslog, sFTP, SNMP, licencing,l services, updates and... critically for this discussion, remote vendor dial-in, for anything above a bronze support contract. That gives a route home......


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,555 ✭✭✭✭Marlow


    9726_9726 wrote: »
    Looking at a FTTH deployment for a minute, for example, SIRO. I assume that only the OLT and ONT are Huawei. These would be providing a layer 2 service, bringing a set of customers back to a given provider.

    Both SIRO and OpenEIR deliver FTTH circuits layer2 to the partner providers. VDSL circuits from OpenEIR are also delivered that same way.

    With SIRO that means, none of their gear is on the public internet. The provisioning system isn't on the public internet either. It has to be reached via VPN.

    OpenEIR is a bit different. Their provisioning system is reachable from the Internet. And I'm not sure how OpenEIR and Eir are interconnected at the aggregation point, but all other providers are handed the customer sessions over layer2.

    /M


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Eir subs DHCP from the 7750 above and just route tagged packets to appropriate edge router. Manually managed block assignments which is a clusterf'ck (1000 pools instead of like 9).


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    BTW Huawei fired the Polish employee.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46851777


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E




  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47036515

    The US Justice Department has filed a host of criminal charges against Chinese telecoms giant Huawei and its chief financial officer, Meng Wanzhou.

    The charges against the world's second largest smartphone maker include bank fraud, obstruction of justice and theft of technology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭long_b


    Fascinating reading - details of the spying. Serious stuff and actively encouraged

    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5698582-Huawei-Indictment-Pacer-0.html#text/p12


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    There is a video of Tappy on the T-Mobiles YouTube account from 2012. It does not look like something that would be hard to copy.

    Also went to T-mobiles Germany website and they are selling Huawei phones still.

    Sounds like a setup to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    I'd agree it seems to be an odd thing to be THAT interested in copying. I'd have thought Huawei would be more than capable of designing something like that itself. In fact, given that it has manufacturing and design engineering skills in-house in large numbers, I would have thought that it would be in a far better position than T-Mobile US to develop such a device.

    It's possible though that they just have a corporate culture of collecting data on anything useful, even if it's not particularly beneficial to the company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    ...... and if they did have compromised equipment, do you know for certain that any of the alternative suppliers have equipment that is not compromised?

    Political football!

    Is there really much difference to Ireland, for instance, which equipment manufacturer is used from a security point of view?
    Do you trust the likes of Trump more than any of his equivalents in other countries?

    IMO, if one is 'at it' then they all are to a greater or lesser extent.

    Isn't Huawei a government funded company?
    The US has strict regulation when it comes to dealing with companies that operate with government backing. AFAIK they are not using any Huawei gear in the mobile networks in the US as they're not allowed. They only sell end user gear there? Or has that changed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Officially, Huawei is an employee-owned company, a fact the company emphasizes to distance itself from allegations of government control.

    In practice they're totally at the beck and call of Beijing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    ED E wrote: »
    In practice they're totally at the beck and call of Beijing.


    Yeah don't think anybody(country) believes they are anything else?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    No ofc not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    But hey - the gear is cheaper than the competitions(probably because they don't invent anything just steal it).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    turbbo wrote: »
    But hey - the gear is cheaper than the competitions(probably because they don't invent anything just steal it).

    No different to Apple and Samsung stealing each others ideas, or Google hoovering up tech companies and patents. In reality they are all as bad as each other. The US government agencies have been known to spy and hack too. It's not just a Chinese problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    recyclebin wrote: »
    No different to Apple and Samsung stealing each others ideas, or Google hoovering up tech companies and patents. In reality they are all as bad as each other. The US government agencies have been known to spy and hack too. It's not just a Chinese problem.

    Hmm I've worked in the industry and I know stealing when I see it - in China it's on another level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    turbbo wrote: »
    Hmm I've worked in the industry and I know stealing when I see it - in China it's on another level.

    Ah, so the real complaint is that the Chinese are better at it than the others!

    :D:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    Ah, so the real complaint is that the Chinese are better at it than the others!

    :D:D:D
    Depends on what your measure of "better" is. Subtlety wouldn't score too high.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    turbbo wrote: »
    But hey - the gear is cheaper than the competitions(probably because they don't invent anything just steal it).

    Well they're arguably ahead of other vendors with some tech so they can't be stealing everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭turbbo


    ED E wrote: »
    Well they're arguably ahead of other vendors with some tech so they can't be stealing everything.

    Of course not - they are massive, bound to be a few smart people working for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,145 ✭✭✭plodder


    Take a look at their new "Ox horn" campus in China. It's a bizarre recreation of the architecture of famous European cities. Whether that points to a culture of "copying stuff" or not, I don't know. Not illegal in that case at least :pac:



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    plodder wrote: »
    Take a look at their new "Ox horn" campus in China. It's a bizarre recreation of the architecture of famous European cities. Whether that points to a culture of "copying stuff" or not, I don't know. Not illegal in that case at least :pac:


    Absolutely beautiful!

    It would be inspiring to live/work in such an environment.


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