Patio Advice and Recommendations

onimpulse · 24-02-2021 1:32pm #1

We're looking to replace our deck with a natural stone / concrete patio in our back garden but I'm struggling to find a patio company and I'm looking for recommendations and advice.

Our deck is currently raised up so it's at the same level as the doors out, the back garden is on a hill so the deck is raise about one step close to the door but by the end of the deck it's about 1m raised off the ground. We will need to build a foundation and as far as I know that's 408 compacted with cement over it and the patio slabs on top of that.

All the quotes we got said we would need wall around the side to hold the foundation in place, that makes sense. One company said we would need steel bars in addition to the wall to hold the weight of the foundation, otherwise we'll have subsidence in years to come. Is this necessary? Others didn't seem to think so. The total area is about 35m2

I'm just wondering if anyone can offer advice on this as I'm getting conflicting advice from various companies.

Also wondering if anyone can offer advice on finding a reputable company as I'm getting the impression there are a lot of cowboys in this business (maybe i"m wrong?) we're based on the northside of Dublin.

Thanks!

aw · 24-02-2021 1:36pm

Information like which part of the country you are in, and the approx dimensions of the surface to cover will help you in getting some recommendations and advice.

onimpulse · 24-02-2021 1:41pm

I've just edited and included those details. Thanks.

rje66 · 24-02-2021 2:36pm

onimpulse wrote: »

I've just edited and included those details. Thanks.

A picture or two would be great.

Hocus Focus · 02-03-2021 1:21pm

If it were me, I would dig out the rising ground to level the area. Your patio would then be all on the one level, without the trip hazard caused by having a step. The steep rise between the patio and the grass area could be sloped back a little and be covered with rocks into which you can introduce pockets of soil to grow alpines and other rockery-type plants. Or you could build a low wall along this area, or better again, a low double wall, containing a raised bed, in which to grow herbs, for instance.
If the foundation is contained by the house foundations at one end and the boundary walls at the sides, the latter suggestion would take care of any movement on the fourth side.

michaeljh1965 · 06-03-2021 4:40pm

Hi, can you tell me which board is the best to use for flooring? I have a humid climate and I think this is something to pay attention to. I was thinking of using oak board but don't know how it will hold up in a humid climate (will it crack)

ratracer · 06-03-2021 4:42pm

Hocus Focus wrote: »

If it were me, I would dig out the rising ground to level the area. Your patio would then be all on the one level, without the trip hazard caused by having a step. The steep rise between the patio and the grass area could be sloped back a little and be covered with rocks into which you can introduce pockets of soil to grow alpines and other rockery-type plants. Or you could build a low wall along this area, or better again, a low double wall, containing a raised bed, in which to grow herbs, for instance.
If the foundation is contained by the house foundations at one end and the boundary walls at the sides, the latter suggestion would take care of any movement on the fourth side.

I think the slope is going downhill away from the house..... from reading the OP

Hocus Focus · 07-03-2021 7:54pm

ratracer wrote: »

I think the slope is going downhill away from the house..... from reading the OP

Specsavers!!

Hocus Focus · 07-03-2021 8:02pm

michaeljh1965 wrote: »

Hi, can you tell me which board is the best to use for flooring? I have a humid climate and I think this is something to pay attention to. I was thinking of using oak board but don't know how it will hold up in a humid climate (will it crack)

Oak is not for outdoor applications, even in wooden shipbuilding it was only used to build the frames of the ship, the outer skin being of other types, such as larch. The main problem with oak is that it causes metal steel nails and screws to corrode quickly, followed by a rapid deterioration around the area of the fixing, called "iron sickness".
For decking it is probably best to stick to the commercial teak-type planking purpose- made for this application, witha textured upper surface. Even this will deteriorate when not properly maintained.
An alternative is to go for the new "engineered timber" decking materials, which are a kind of wood/plastic composite. They require no maintenance.

Hocus Focus · 07-03-2021 8:06pm

michaeljh1965 wrote: »

Hi, can you tell me which board is the best to use for flooring? I have a humid climate and I think this is something to pay attention to. I was thinking of using oak board but don't know how it will hold up in a humid climate (will it crack)

Oak is not great for outdoor applications, even though it's ahardwood it doesn't last very long. In wooden boatbuilding it is only used to build the ribs, the outer skin being of other types, such as larch or pine. The main problem with oak is that it causes steel nails and screws to corrode quickly, followed by a rapid deterioration around the area of the fixing, called "iron sickness".
For decking it is probably best to stick to the commercial teak-type planking purpose- made for this application, with a textured upper surface. Even this will deteriorate when not properly maintained.
An alternative is to go for the new "engineered timber" decking materials, which are a kind of wood/plastic composite. They require no maintenance.

grassylawn · 07-03-2021 9:34pm

We got a 60 sq metre patio against our back wall. Two thirds of it have rubber play tiles from black swan, which are great. The rest is granite slabs. These are good too.

It's nice but I would definitely have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight. My main mistake was agreeing to things that I didn't actually want because I trusted the builders' knowledge. They might know more but they might be more about what suits themselves than what the best thing to do is.

You generally shouldn't raise the ground against your wall. The damp-proof membrane is a certain height above the ground for a reason. I would be wary about dealing with any builder who recommends that you do without discussing the reasons that you might not want to.

Drainage is an issue with concrete surfaces. They talked us out of a French drain along the house wall and installed two Aco drains on either side. These drain into the existing storm drains for the gutters. One of the drains is overloaded now and floods in very heavy rain. I plan to install a water butt on the downpipe that runs into it to address that. There is a slight incline to either side. I plan to get a French drain installed along the wall of the house because I am not happy with the concrete right up against it.

I would have preferred a sand base to a concrete one. The play tiles we got are intended for a sand base. They are fine on the concrete but drainage would obviously be better on something permeable.

We did have a retaining wall installed. They compacted our lawn and took it upon themselves to pile the clay they dug up behind it. They also delayed doing the work until Winter when it was very wet. So we have terribly compacted soil now. They actually partly covered the access points to the septic system so water poured into them and the whole thing flooded. I had to dig around them manually and create channels for the water to run off the lawn through. It was horrible.

We had heard good things about the builder we used. Obviously we were not happy with them. They are not based near Dublin though so they are not going to be anyone you are looking at.

We got fencing put up. I delayed finishing it a bit then tried to sand and varnish it by hand. The sanding was a huge job that I didn't complete during the summer. Get an electric sander if you are sanding more than a few metres of fence.

The access points to the drains are now very deep. I am not sure what I will be able to do if I need to put a drain rod down them. I used the plunger drain rod successfully when the drain under the outside tap was backing up. But I see no way of feeding one of the other heads down them now, if that comes to be needed.

They concreted in drain cover for a storm drain. I noticed it wasn't draining and that it contained a dead vole. I was able to remove it without causing damage using an SDS drill with a cold chisel bit. There is no way I would have been able to remove it with an unpowered hand tool.

I am concerned about subsidence since they did the job. There are new hairline cracks in the plaster inside and in the surrounding path in places that make me think it is subsidence from the patio. They did not use steel bars. I don't actually know whether there is actual subsidence occurring or the risk of it.

Whole thing caused loads of stress and hassle really.

Hocus Focus · 08-03-2021 5:11pm

grassylawn wrote: »

We got a 60 sq metre patio against our back wall. Two thirds of it have rubber play tiles from black swan, which are great. The rest is granite slabs. These are good too.

It's nice but I would definitely have done things differently with the benefit of hindsight. My main mistake was agreeing to things that I didn't actually want because I trusted the builders' knowledge. They might know more but they might be more about what suits themselves than what the best thing to do is.

You generally shouldn't raise the ground against your wall. The damp-proof membrane is a certain height above the ground for a reason. I would be wary about dealing with any builder who recommends that you do without discussing the reasons that you might not want to.

Drainage is an issue with concrete surfaces. They talked us out of a French drain along the house wall and installed two Aco drains on either side. These drain into the existing storm drains for the gutters. One of the drains is overloaded now and floods in very heavy rain. I plan to install a water butt on the downpipe that runs into it to address that. There is a slight incline to either side. I plan to get a French drain installed along the wall of the house because I am not happy with the concrete right up against it.

I would have preferred a sand base to a concrete one. The play tiles we got are intended for a sand base. They are fine on the concrete but drainage would obviously be better on something permeable.

We did have a retaining wall installed. They compacted our lawn and took it upon themselves to pile the clay they dug up behind it. They also delayed doing the work until Winter when it was very wet. So we have terribly compacted soil now. They actually partly covered the access points to the septic system so water poured into them and the whole thing flooded. I had to dig around them manually and create channels for the water to run off the lawn through. It was horrible.

We had heard good things about the builder we used. Obviously we were not happy with them. They are not based near Dublin though so they are not going to be anyone you are looking at.

We got fencing put up. I delayed finishing it a bit then tried to sand and varnish it by hand. The sanding was a huge job that I didn't complete during the summer. Get an electric sander if you are sanding more than a few metres of fence.

The access points to the drains are now very deep. I am not sure what I will be able to do if I need to put a drain rod down them. I used the plunger drain rod successfully when the drain under the outside tap was backing up. But I see no way of feeding one of the other heads down them now, if that comes to be needed.

They concreted in drain cover for a storm drain. I noticed it wasn't draining and that it contained a dead vole. I was able to remove it without causing damage using an SDS drill with a cold chisel bit. There is no way I would have been able to remove it with an unpowered hand tool.

I am concerned about subsidence since they did the job. There are new hairline cracks in the plaster inside and in the surrounding path in places that make me think it is subsidence from the patio. They did not use steel bars. I do actually know whether there is actual subsidence occurring or the risk of it. I don't believe they used steel bars.

Whole thing caused loads of stress and hassle really.

I wouldn't put an actual French drain along the walls of a house, - when I was at one time looking for planning permission for an extension, one of the things specified by the council was a concrete apron to the walls, extending one foot (30cm) outwards.
I would imagine that your subsidence is caused by the ground covered by the patio drying out. The difference in dryness/wetness in the surrounding substrates causes structures, such as houses, to move/ subside a small amount.
We don't have voles in Ireland, I'm afraid your deceased mammal was a rat, but they're never very far away, whether we live in town or country.

grassylawn · 08-03-2021 8:01pm

Hocus Focus wrote: »

I wouldn't put an actual French drain along the walls of a house, - when I was at one time looking for planning permission for an extension, one of the things specified by the council was a concrete apron to the walls, extending one foot (30cm) outwards.
I would imagine that your subsidence is caused by the ground covered by the patio drying out. The difference in dryness/wetness in the surrounding substrates causes structures, such as houses, to move/ subside a small amount.
We don't have voles in Ireland, I'm afraid your deceased mammal was a rat, but they're never very far away, whether we live in town or country.

The concrete apron should be about a foot below the damp proof membrane. The french drain is a remedy for our situation where it has been raised up and is at risk of causing damp in the wall it is against.

It wasn't a rat. There are voles in Ireland now. The rodents in our garden are all tiny and either field mice or field voles. I've seen lots of them. I also found their poop which is mouse/vole size not rat.

I'll look at improving the drainage where a lot of the water now flows. Most of the house is bordered by some form of paving so there is a significant difference in how wet that area is getting and the rest of it.

I know that one risk with paving is that tree roots can extend further in searh of wet soil, potentially going under foundations and causing the apil to be deaaicated in dey weather.

Mimon · 08-03-2021 10:24pm

Hocus Focus wrote: »

I wouldn't put an actual French drain along the walls of a house, - when I was at one time looking for planning permission for an extension, one of the things specified by the council was a concrete apron to the walls, extending one foot (30cm) outwards.
I would imagine that your subsidence is caused by the ground covered by the patio drying out. The difference in dryness/wetness in the surrounding substrates causes structures, such as houses, to move/ subside a small amount.
We don't have voles in Ireland, I'm afraid your deceased mammal was a rat, but they're never very far away, whether we live in town or country.

There are most certainly water voles in Ireland.

Patio Advice and Recommendations

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