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2 farms 35miles apart. What to do??

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  • 18-04-2018 9:12am
    #1
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭


    Quick Background.

    Both myself and my OH come from farming backgrounds. My family have a 60acre farm where current system is Dry stock - buying in calves @ 6weeks old and selling to factory @ 18/24months. Up until 2007 it was a full time dairy system and still has potential to change back to dairy.

    His family have 60acre farm also but run sheep of it and have about 10 acres of plantation and 10 acres of Wild Bird Cover and a man made pond (duck and phesant shooting).

    Atm my father is running our home farm and i'm currently doing the green cert and working full time job (shift work)
    The OH also has a full time job (flexi) and his dad runs the farm during the day with OH doing evenings and weekends.

    We live on his farm.

    The Question.
    Now for the conundrum. Neither of our fathers are getting any younger. The OH is having farm transfered to his name in next few weeks due to his father being sick. He's talking about going into dry stock sheep with 15-20 pedigree flock.

    I would love to keep the farm running at home too but cant decide on what system. Home farm is 45mins away from where we live now. Moving half way between the 2 farms is not an option.

    What would ye do. Continue beef system thats in place at present? Rent out farm (would rather not).

    What i'm looking for is a system that is non-intensive but profitable if such thing even exists.

    Sorry for long post. hope i explained everything. ask questions if needed. thanks


«13

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    #2
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    If keeping both farms perhaps switch to buying weanlings/ yearlings as opposed to calves as there would be less labour involved on your farm.
    Alternatively if wanting to keep buying calves bring the calves to your husband place and rear them there and second season at your place. Kinda farm the two farms as one. Having both sheep and beef is prob no harm in terms of not depending on one or the other.
    What you need to come up with is having the least amount of labour involved on the furthest away block. Perhaps while your parents are still going and if ye are taking the places eventually start investing in handling facilities etc. If there is a beef/ sheep discussion group nearby o harm to join and see if there are any ideas there.


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    #3
    anthony500_1
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭anthony500_1


    Im living your exact problem. Was left both farms so it is what it is, a farm is a super assett so def it's doable if you want it to work, 30acre home block and 14acres 35miles away, I've sucklers on the home block and keep dry stock on the out farm. It's well fenced, mains water no electric, its great fattening ground compared to the home farm. I keep the few replacements and a few weanlings and they get one or two seasons down there and then off to the factory or to the bull. If your land will support Bullock's it might be a better option, less trouble with heifers bulling and mastitis, I've two great neighbours at the outfarm that keep an eye on things for me and if there is any bother they ring me, I only check them once a week as the two neighbours see them daily when checking there own stock. Don't keep tractor or anything of any value at out farm as no house etc there. At times you would wonder would you be better letting it out but I just can't bring myself to doing it as the renter would not keep it to my liking more that likely. Good handling facility's is a must and if you buy weanings in October 2 December it's the cheapest time to buy and keep them on the block your living at then ship them to the outfarm for spring through to autum it would be a low cost/time system.


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    #4
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    anthony500_1 wrote:
    Im living your exact problem. Was left both farms so it is what it is, a farm is a super assett so def it's doable if you want it to work, 30acre home block and 14acres 35miles away, I've sucklers on the home block and keep dry stock on the out farm. It's well fenced, mains water no electric, its great fattening ground compared to the home farm. I keep the few replacements and a few weanlings and they get one or two seasons down there and then off to the factory or to the bull. If your land will support Bullock's it might be a better option, less trouble with heifers bulling and mastitis, I've two great neighbours at the outfarm that keep an eye on things for me and if there is any bother they ring me, I only check them once a week as the two neighbours see them daily when checking there own stock. Don't keep tractor or anything of any value at out farm as no house etc there. At times you would wonder would you be better letting it out but I just can't bring myself to doing it as the renter would not keep it to my liking more that likely. Good handling facility's is a must and if you buy weanings in October 2 December it's the cheapest time to buy and keep them on the block your living at then ship them to the outfarm for spring through to autum it would be a low cost/time system.

    If you only see them once a week how do you manage foddering in winter? Do the neighbours do it for you?


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    #5
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    If you only see them once a week how do you manage foddering in winter? Do the neighbours do it for you?

    Has them all in home yard l would say


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    #6
    cosatron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭cosatron


    why don't you considering having all the stock/flock on the 60 acres closest to you and use the 60 acres 45mins away for 2 cuts of silage and crops that can be transported back to the home farm.


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    #7
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Short term you could rear calves and sheep on the home block and keep the yearlings on the outside block

    Or else tillage??

    Long term if you plan on having all livestock then you should sell 1 of the blocks and buy close to the other block - or if you don't want to sell then lease out 1 block of land then lease a place close to your home place.


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    #8
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Short term you could rear calves and sheep on the home block and keep the yearlings on the outside block

    Or else tillage??

    Long term if you plan on having all livestock then you should sell 1 of the blocks and buy close to the other block - or if you don't want to sell then lease out 1 block of land then lease a place close to your home place.

    You are both in jobs, lease out one, probably your land OP and try renting near his place. If you look into it I think there could be major tax benefits in it.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #9
    anthony500_1
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭anthony500_1


    OffalyMedic wrote:
    If you only see them once a week how do you manage foddering in winter? Do the neighbours do it for you?


    I actually out winter 6 ood, 12 to 18mts heifers Nov to Feb, fertilizer out in April, try finish a few then from may to July on grass, and let grow till Nov again depending on grazing and weather. It's all one field so it's just set stocked and under stocked at that so I'm not drawing cattle up and down the hole time, not saying it's best practices but it works for me.


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    #10
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    OP stay on the farm with the sheep that is the most labour intensive as well as needing to be there to watch the sheep. If you parents farm was a dairy farm I am thinking it is good land. Get rid of the some calves this will reduce workload. Buy in stores during the summer graze them until autumn. House them and overwinter on silage back out to grass as early as possible and finish the following summer. On 60 goodish acres you will finish 50 cattle in such a system. It is easy to feed silage during the winter to cattle. You would be in and out of such a yard in an hour during the winter less risk of a sick animal and problems. It would be an easy system on your father be able to give a hand feeding silage during the winter and checking cattle during the summer. As well if it was a dairy farm I expect that it is paddocked's.

    Go for dairy cross cattle much easier to handle and control as well as to move. This evening I moved 35 bullocks across the farm in 30 minutes using pigtails and reels. When I opened the gap they walked out and I just followed them along this temporary road through the fields. Had a walk through them then no hassle no risk.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #11
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    Now that I'm finished the green cert and we have talked about it more we are really in a conundrum.
    So in my op my figures we're slightly out
    OH has only 50acres (41 grass, 6 forestry and 3 bird cover), mixed land. I.e other 6acrea of planted field is at such a slope can't do tractor work on it (fertilise, dung etc). Because it's sheep with a water source they don't have drinkers in field no electricity etc.

    We have 60 acres of good quality land, fertilised high and stocked high. Ex dairy so we've good road network, water supply to paddocks, electric fencing, handling facilities and so on.

    On the above it seems obvious to try make a go at my farm as main one and OH as outfarm but this is where problem starts. My farm would mean a near 2 hour commute to work for him as apposed to just over an hour. His good is good money and flexible which will be hard to replace with a job closer to home with similar benefits.

    My job is flexible location wise so that's not an issue but being public sector i'll never have millions! Since doing the green cert I've really gained an interest in farming and playing with the idea of maybe having a 10year plan of setting up a 70cow dairy herd. 1000 will get the parlor back running as we found out last year when neighbor was thinking of leasing parlor to milk. But that's not a big enough dairy farm to give up our two jobs (80k+ earnings a year) and build house, start family etc. So as much as I'd like to go dairy again I don't think it's a realistic goal!

    I'm feeling a bit like my hands are tired. Don't know if I want advise or just to get it off my chest!


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    #12
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    There is another option. Perhaps not one you'd like but perhaps financially the soundest. The 60 acre of good ground could be rented out on a long term lease of greater than 5 yrs. That would be a tax free income of 15 to maybe 18 k depending on interest etc.


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    #13
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Yes the best option by a country mile if you can get a good tenant.

    You are also thinking of doing the two most time consuming and stressful things, building a house and raising a family. If you never farmed you would be strung out with just this, esp with your husband having a big commute the lions share would fall to you.

    You could revisit your options down the road when house is built and kids are bigger.


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    #14
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    Mooooo wrote:
    There is another option. Perhaps not one you'd like but perhaps financially the soundest. The 60 acre of good ground could be rented out on a long term lease of greater than 5 yrs. That would be a tax free income of 15 to maybe 18 k depending on interest etc.


    Yeah not one of like...10 generations of my family have farmed it before me so would love to keep working it


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    #15
    charolais0153
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭charolais0153


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    Yeah not one of like...10 generations of my family have farmed it before me so would love to keep working it

    10 generations! . whats that? 300 years?


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    #16
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    Yeah not one of like...10 generations of my family have farmed it before me so would love to keep working it

    I understand, but as ye write out the options they all should be compared. If it was let for10 years and even allowing for ye saving 10k per year of the rental income and using the rest that's 100k put away tax free... most important thing is that ye find a solution that works for your family. Another possible solution and seeing as your oh is already doing this on part of his farm would be more environmental type solutions on his place depending on what's comes down the tracks 're incentives. Orchards etc or whatever would work with the sheep.
    When there is going to be a share of traveling involved ye must be realistic as well. That 2 hrs in the road could well be alternatively spent with the kids.
    See what yer folks think as well


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    #17
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    Now that I'm finished the green cert and we have talked about it more we are really in a conundrum.
    So in my op my figures we're slightly out
    OH has only 50acres (41 grass, 6 forestry and 3 bird cover), mixed land. I.e other 6acrea of planted field is at such a slope can't do tractor work on it (fertilise, dung etc). Because it's sheep with a water source they don't have drinkers in field no electricity etc.

    We have 60 acres of good quality land, fertilised high and stocked high. Ex dairy so we've good road network, water supply to paddocks, electric fencing, handling facilities and so on.

    On the above it seems obvious to try make a go at my farm as main one and OH as outfarm but this is where problem starts. My farm would mean a near 2 hour commute to work for him as apposed to just over an hour. His good is good money and flexible which will be hard to replace with a job closer to home with similar benefits.

    My job is flexible location wise so that's not an issue but being public sector i'll never have millions! Since doing the green cert I've really gained an interest in farming and playing with the idea of maybe having a 10year plan of setting up a 70cow dairy herd. 1000 will get the parlor back running as we found out last year when neighbor was thinking of leasing parlor to milk. But that's not a big enough dairy farm to give up our two jobs (80k+ earnings a year) and build house, start family etc. So as much as I'd like to go dairy again I don't think it's a realistic goal!

    I'm feeling a bit like my hands are tired. Don't know if I want advise or just to get it off my chest!
    While it's admirable to want to continue the tradition of farming, is it really a viable option?



    Your OH is going to have 2 hours longer on the road every day, as Moooo said, that time is going to come out of family time and that's a big sacrifice for both him and you as the childcare will probably fall back on you or your extended family.



    Building up a dairy herd, while the most profitable system, is going to suck free cash out of your hand for 3 or 4 years until the stock is paid for and with a new house for you both and kids hopefully coming, it's a huge sacrifice. Indeed, any enterprise will hoover up any spare cash and a lot of not so spare cash out of your pockets as well.


    However, if you're still interested in dairying, one solution might be calving down cows to as easy calving bull, Angus or Hereford or some such, and selling all the calves at 3 or 4 weeks old and buying in replacement heifers calved down for any culled cows. Once calves are removed from the system, the time spent on the farm is just milking, moving fences and spreading fertiliser.


    The link below is from the Dairy chitchat thread here about a man doing just that and it may be worth considering


    https://www.thatsfarming.com/news/young-farmer-tommy-maunsell


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    #18
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    charolais0153 wrote:
    10 generations! . whats that? 300 years?


    Yeah I think about 1808 we have traced back to!


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    #19
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    That's for all your help deep down I think I know my farm isn't really a viable farming option for us right now but it's just hard to let it go too! Even if it is just for long term lease!


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    #20
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,692 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    It's a difficult decision but a good problem to have. Work out what affords you both the best possible lifestyle and then go with that. Might be a silly question but have you spoken to your own parents about it? Good luck with whatever you do. At the end of it all the farm will always be there, I think you need to put the people first!


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    #21
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    Back looking at this now again since I have the green cert finished.

    Dream : Give up my job and go back dairying on home farm (last milking 10years ago) use the 70 acres there as the grazing block and use OH ~50 acres for silage and young stock. OH gets a job back in Midlands and we make a go at it.
    Pros: water and road network in place already. Beef stock can be sold to reduce captial needed for dairy herd. Sheds, parlor, slurry storage etc in place. parlor renovated in 2001 but then stopped milking in 2007 maybe some of the equipment could be serviced and reused?
    Cons: big leap for someone who has little dairy experience (13yo when father stopped milking). Relocating and moving 2 jobs (1 well paid with big flexibility). Woman going into dairy with prospect of starting a family (biggest scare).

    Realistic 1 : stay on his farm in our own jobs as is and lease my home farm long term.

    Realistic 2: Change to a 9-5 within my career, OH stays in his job. Stay on his land and then I'll just go to my farm every every to check in on things with dad/neighbor keeping an eye during the day. And just run calf to Beef or similar enterprise.

    Very confused on what to do. Think first port of call is do FRS milking course and milk on brother in law's / relief and see if I'll have a love for it like I think I do


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    #22
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    Back looking at this now again since I have the green cert finished.

    Dream : Give up my job and go back dairying on home farm (last milking 10years ago) use the 70 acres there as the grazing block and use OH ~50 acres for silage and young stock. OH gets a job back in Midlands and we make a go at it.
    Pros: water and road network in place already. Beef stock can be sold to reduce captial needed for dairy herd. Sheds, parlor, slurry storage etc in place. parlor renovated in 2001 but then stopped milking in 2007 maybe some of the equipment could be serviced and reused?
    Cons: big leap for someone who has little dairy experience (13yo when father stopped milking). Relocating and moving 2 jobs (1 well paid with big flexibility). Woman going into dairy with prospect of starting a family (biggest scare).

    Realistic 1 : stay on his farm in our own jobs as is and lease my home farm long term.

    Realistic 2: Change to a 9-5 within my career, OH stays in his job. Stay on his land and then I'll just go to my farm every every to check in on things with dad/neighbor keeping an eye during the day. And just run calf to Beef or similar enterprise.

    Very confused on what to do. Think first port of call is do FRS milking course and milk on brother in law's / relief and see if I'll have a love for it like I think I do

    I think its doable, BUT and it's a big but
    Don't do it with extra borrowings
    You could run 60 or 65 cows on that 70 acre grazing block
    Have ye savings that could be put into it?
    Do the buildings need any work?
    Is there a parlour
    A 30 mile jaunt with silage though is not a real runner so budget for some conacre silage ground near the 70 acres and devise a plan for wintering your cows on the other farm
    Also try to between the two of you keep at least one of the off farm jobs going


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    #23
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I love the idea of it. I know nothing about farming. But this screams detailed business plan to estimate and manage viability going forward.


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    #24
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    beauf wrote: »
    I love the idea of it. I know nothing about farming. But this screams detailed business plan to estimate and manage viability going forward.

    YUP


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    #25
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    What possibility is there to expand the dairy unit in the future? If you're surrounded by other dairy farms it mightn't be a runner),
    And whats the possibility of getting a return on the "out farm" that'll fund the dairy... Without you having to go chasing around country side...
    Wether you lease it out, or put it into forestry, or combination...
    The "extra" fixed income will ensure you can put in good facilities,(handling, housing, fencing Ect,) and can spend your time farming efficiently rather chasing your tail....
    Anywho best of luck...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #26
    Reggie.
    Registered Users Posts: 24,370 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    I think its doable, BUT and it's a big but
    Don't do it with extra borrowings
    You could run 60 or 65 cows on that 70 acre grazing block
    Have ye savings that could be put into it?
    Do the buildings need any work?
    Is there a parlour
    A 30 mile jaunt with silage though is not a real runner so budget for some conacre silage ground near the 70 acres and devise a plan for wintering your cows on the other farm
    Also try to between the two of you keep at least one of the off farm jobs going

    No bother run that amount of cows as the BIL is running 70 on 58 acres


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    #27
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    Mortelaro wrote:
    I think its doable, BUT and it's a big but Don't do it with extra borrowings You could run 60 or 65 cows on that 70 acre grazing block Have ye savings that could be put into it? Do the buildings need any work? Is there a parlour A 30 mile jaunt with silage though is not a real runner so budget for some conacre silage ground near the 70 acres and devise a plan for wintering your cows on the other farm Also try to between the two of you keep at least one of the off farm jobs going


    I would look at selling the 120 beef cattle to off cut costs of 60-70 heifers/cows.

    There is farm savings of about 50k (approx need to ask my father)

    Buildings would be good for a good few years anyway. Have 2 slatted cubicle sheds one with electric scrapers. Another 1 and a bit slats. Then 3 calf sheds and calving house and a parlor.

    There is a parlor on site fully kitted out after expansion in approx 2002 but it hasn't been used since 2007. Id be hoping bulktank, collecting units etc would be ok to use after a clean and service and just replace rubbers etc but this might be optimistic.

    Silage ground near us is not an option I don't think without reducing cow numbers (income). Will explore silage issue further.

    Only staw bedded sheds in OH farm set up for sheep with little to no handling facilities hence I think it can only be used for young stock/ silage early on until set up.

    The plan would be for OH to keep working and I'd be the main farmer with help from father and neighbour.


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    #28
    OffalyMedic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭OffalyMedic


    Markcheese wrote:
    What possibility is there to expand the dairy unit in the future? If you're surrounded by other dairy farms it mightn't be a runner), And whats the possibility of getting a return on the "out farm" that'll fund the dairy... Without you having to go chasing around country side... Wether you lease it out, or put it into forestry, or combination... The "extra" fixed income will ensure you can put in good facilities,(handling, housing, fencing Ect,) and can spend your time farming efficiently rather chasing your tail.... Anywho best of luck...


    Don't think expansion is an option. 1 massive dairy farm has all the land we used to rent in a long term lease. And young lad has started beef farmer other parcel of land beside us about 3 years ago and has built big she'd house etc on that land since


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    #29
    davidk1394
    Registered Users Posts: 4,045 ✭✭✭davidk1394


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    Back looking at this now again since I have the green cert finished.

    Dream : Give up my job and go back dairying on home farm (last milking 10years ago) use the 70 acres there as the grazing block and use OH ~50 acres for silage and young stock. OH gets a job back in Midlands and we make a go at it.
    Pros: water and road network in place already. Beef stock can be sold to reduce captial needed for dairy herd. Sheds, parlor, slurry storage etc in place. parlor renovated in 2001 but then stopped milking in 2007 maybe some of the equipment could be serviced and reused?
    Cons: big leap for someone who has little dairy experience (13yo when father stopped milking). Relocating and moving 2 jobs (1 well paid with big flexibility). Woman going into dairy with prospect of starting a family (biggest scare).

    Realistic 1 : stay on his farm in our own jobs as is and lease my home farm long term.

    Realistic 2: Change to a 9-5 within my career, OH stays in his job. Stay on his land and then I'll just go to my farm every every to check in on things with dad/neighbor keeping an eye during the day. And just run calf to Beef or similar enterprise.

    Very confused on what to do. Think first port of call is do FRS milking course and milk on brother in law's / relief and see if I'll have a love for it like I think I do

    Interesting thread and I hope it goes well for you. Getting some hands on experience would be the first port of call. See if you enjoy milking and cows. Also you’ll find it easier to see sick animals, AI and treating sick animals. With the outside farm. I know a friend of mine who puts the young stock down there and then cuts silage off it. Roughly 35 miles away like yours. Works well but you loose 2/3 hours every few days checking stock. If it was me I’d cut silage, but do bales. Get trucks to haul them back instead of tractors and trailers. Bit of a mad idea but would it be possible to rent out the land that’s away from the farm and rent the same amount of land near by ?

    Sell the stock and buy dairy stock.

    Be sure you do a very good budget so you see where you might run into trouble. Some of the farmers I talked to who converted from beef to dairy ran into this issue.

    In terms of borrowing, I personally wouldn’t be afraid to borrow, within reason. It allows you flexibility and you don’t use up all your own savings. Put the loan over 10/15 years but aim to pay it off over 6/7 years. Even interest only for the first year.

    Will you qualify for any young farmer grants or loans ? I’m going to try maximize all the grants to my advantage.


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    #30
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    I noticed above you say farm savings, that is your parents money i assume. If there will have to be an income for your parents as well yerselves that will all have to be worked out. Parents will need their retirement income and ye will need family income as well as development money. First port of call is seeing what yer parents want and need. After that work on a business plan. Accountants and agri advisors would also be helpful.


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    #31
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    OffalyMedic wrote: »
    I would look at selling the 120 beef cattle to off cut costs of 60-70 heifers/cows.

    There is farm savings of about 50k (approx need to ask my father)

    Buildings would be good for a good few years anyway. Have 2 slatted cubicle sheds one with electric scrapers. Another 1 and a bit slats. Then 3 calf sheds and calving house and a parlor.

    There is a parlor on site fully kitted out after expansion in approx 2002 but it hasn't been used since 2007. Id be hoping bulktank, collecting units etc would be ok to use after a clean and service and just replace rubbers etc but this might be optimistic.

    Silage ground near us is not an option I don't think without reducing cow numbers (income). Will explore silage issue further.

    Only staw bedded sheds in OH farm set up for sheep with little to no handling facilities hence I think it can only be used for young stock/ silage early on until set up.

    The plan would be for OH to keep working and I'd be the main farmer with help from father and neighbour.

    That all sounds good!
    Don't go building anything!
    Slurry storage?
    Even 10 acres cut twice nearby rented for the start and end of milking season ,for when the cows arrive from the other farm and of course you'll have some surplus grass bales on both farms,draw them to the dairy operation
    Do a detailed plan,cost everything
    Use a 26c milk price and allow for a compulsory savings fund to be paid into without fail for prices below that bad weather or a rainy day emergency purchase on the farm
    I would say theres no need in the first few years to allow yourself wages out of this if you are still working, but just be sure it's doing it's own washing when up and running ie profitable
    No subsidy from your off farm income
    It needs to be viable ie giving a return on your initial investment
    Hopefully the parlour and tank and rest of the existing infrastructure can be got up and running for less than you think
    Best of luck
    But Plan Plan Plan and if it's a runner Do Do Do


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