SpaceX's Grasshopper VTVL takes a 40 meter hop

shedweller · 10-01-2015 9:30am

So no live stream then. Hmph! Ah well, off to bed with me then. I expect great things when i get up.

And maybe a landed rocket too!

thecommander · 10-01-2015 9:55am

shedweller wrote: »

So no live stream then. Hmph! Ah well, off to bed with me then. I expect great things when i get up.
And maybe a landed rocket too!

Live stream of the launch, just not the landing.
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/?utm_content=buffer6e91c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#.VLDpKsZIiBV

nokia69 · 10-01-2015 10:02am

http://www.spacex.com/webcast/

should be on youtube too

weather looking OK

thecommander · 10-01-2015 10:06am

nokia69 wrote: »

http://www.spacex.com/webcast/

should be on youtube too

weather looking OK

And on UStream too. Always good to have a few options, but I doubt there'll be as many watching as usual due to the time in the US.
http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv

Ghost Train · 10-01-2015 10:39am

must be nearly time for this I guess

edit 8min

Ghost Train · 10-01-2015 11:03am

so did the first stage land in the water as was kind of expected, since they keep showing a watery looking video

thecommander · 10-01-2015 11:08am

Ghost Train wrote: »

so did the first stage land in the water as was kind of expected, since they keep showing a watery looking video

The blobs of liquid is the propellant inside the second stage floating around. They put a camera inside the tank.

nokia69 · 10-01-2015 11:11am

Elon MuskVerified account
‏@elonmusk Rocket made it to drone spaceport ship, but landed hard. Close, but no cigar this time. Bodes well for the future tho.

oh well better luck next time

thecommander · 10-01-2015 11:23am

Wonder if it went overboard

Capt'n Midnight · 10-01-2015 1:53pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30752515

The company CEO Elon Musk tweeted that the booster hit the platform hard.

"Close, but no cigar," he added. "Bodes well for the future tho'. Ship itself is fine. Some of the support equipment on the deck will need to be replaced." And he continued: "Didn't get good landing/impact video. Pitch dark and foggy. Will piece it together from telemetry and... actual pieces."

...
The barge is less than 100m wide, and all previous experiments had been working on a landing accuracy of some 10km.

nokia69 · 10-01-2015 3:23pm

hitting the barge is pretty good IMO

they will try again at the end of the month

I bet they get it right at some stage this year

shedweller · 10-01-2015 4:08pm

I wonder what the swell was like? Still though, thats a very good result and bodes very well for the next effort. I cant wait for pics!

Hmmzis · 10-01-2015 10:53pm

From Musk's tweets it looks like the rocket ran out of hydraulics fluid for the fins, about 10% short. Aparently they use an open system to save weight. Not sure is the fluid is shared with the landing legs' system.

shedweller · 11-01-2015 1:24am

Hmmzis wrote: »

From Musk's tweets it looks like the rocket ran out of hydraulics fluid for the fins, about 10% short. Aparently they use an open system to save weight. Not sure is the fluid is shared with the landing legs' system.

He said there is already 50% more fluid on the next one so theres plenty in reserve.
They were out by only 10% this time. A simple thing like turbulence or crosswind would have used up the hydraulics quicker. A closed system would have kept on doing its thing but the weight penalty was deemed too much. As usual with rockets, they ride a knife edge and sometimes things go wrong.
I was actually thinking about the weight thing the other day. Not my weight, the rockets. Given that it will be reusable, wont they have to beef up the structures to cope with metal fatigue? This will be a weight penalty in itself so theres going to have to be a balancing act done with all that. Interesting work!

Capt'n Midnight · 11-01-2015 12:36pm

*put's on Devils Advocatehat*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-30752515

they would also have to get satellite operators comfortable with the idea of launching their precious hardware on what would essentially be second-hand rockets.

"The customer doesn't ask for reusability; they ask for reliability at the cheapest cost possible," said Rachel Villain, with the space intelligence company Euroconsult.

"Reusability is the problem of the supplier, not of the client. A satellite operator has basically three demands - on time, on quality and on price," she told me.

The launch vehicle weighs 500 tons and has a payload of 1.3%

India's GSLV Mark III weighs 630 tonnes , and a suborbital test without the finals stages cost $24m ,( the full thing can put 10 tones in to LEO or less than half that to GEO )
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/2014-a-year-of-technological-advancement-for-india-in-space/articleshow/45591930.cms
so a Payload of 1.6%

So he non reusable one might be 23% more efficient ?
But what matters is the cost and reliability.

Remember some of the SRB segments from the shuttle were reused up to 7 times.

from http://www.actmaniac.com/india-to-launch-gslv-mark-iii-satellite-vehicle-by-the-mid-of-december/

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28spacecraft%29

_Jumper_ · 11-01-2015 5:36pm

Videos of the latest launch are up.

thecommander · 11-01-2015 8:25pm

Pic of the barge returning to Jacksonville.
B7F8I4dCMAITxoP.jpg:large

Hmmzis · 11-01-2015 11:29pm

Looks like there are some bits and pieces on the barge and some minor fire damage. But where is the rocket stage wreck itself, did it fall into the ocean and that on the barge is all that's left?

shedweller · 12-01-2015 5:22am

Hmmzis wrote: »

Looks like there are some bits and pieces on the barge and some minor fire damage. But where is the rocket stage wreck itself, did it fall into the ocean and that on the barge is all that's left?

Looks that way. Those tarpaulins seem to be covering some rockety bits. I really hope the next attempt will be done in daylight so we can see it.

thecommander · 12-01-2015 4:42pm

Some serious sleuthing going on over on Reddit. Seems there was a video feed of the landing, only one clip thats cropped out of a tv screen in mission control. It's of the deployed fins. http://imgur.com/ANumpHA

I reckon we'll eventually see something from the barge.

thecommander · 16-01-2015 8:40am

Some images Musk released on Twitter. So close to the landing, but fins gave out at last minute.

nokia69 · 16-01-2015 9:31am

would love to see the videos

the 29th can't come fast enough

I don't think the fins are much help close to the pad, I think they do most of their work higher up where the speed is greater

thecommander · 16-01-2015 6:23pm

Video.

https://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK

Hmmzis · 16-01-2015 6:52pm

Deeem, that's close.

Also, the explosion is awesome, can't stop watching the video

shedweller · 16-01-2015 9:43pm

Hmmzis wrote: »

Deeem, that's close.

Also, the explosion is awesome, can't stop watching the video

It fairly chucked the top overboard eh?!
One thing thats bothering me. It was coming down very fast and how much of this is due to the loss of steering?
Because if it was doing that speed in an upright position it would have ended badly anyway.
They've done this on dry land anyway so im confident for the next effort.
We need more of this awesomeness!

thecommander · 16-01-2015 10:05pm

shedweller wrote: »

It fairly chucked the top overboard eh?!
One thing thats bothering me. It was coming down very fast and how much of this is due to the loss of steering?
Because if it was doing that speed in an upright position it would have ended badly anyway.
They've done this on dry land anyway so im confident for the next effort.
We need more of this awesomeness!

It's like when you balance a brush handle on your hand, once you go beyond a certain point of it tipping it's gone. Combine that with engines that are still lit and it will accelerate in that direction. I think the speed was fine, just the tipping threw it. We'll see next time.

The One Doctor · 16-01-2015 10:25pm

Does SpaceX user vernier engines for landing the first stage? It'd save them a lot of faffing around if not.

shedweller · 16-01-2015 10:25pm

Now that i have looked at it again it does look like its coming towards the camera which would explain its high vertical speed.
They better do the next one in daylight and with a handful of go-pros!

nokia69 · 16-01-2015 10:54pm

shedweller wrote: »

It fairly chucked the top overboard eh?!
One thing thats bothering me. It was coming down very fast and how much of this is due to the loss of steering?
Because if it was doing that speed in an upright position it would have ended badly anyway.
They've done this on dry land anyway so im confident for the next effort.
We need more of this awesomeness!

my guess is that when they lose the fins, the engine had to over compensate during the last burn

nokia69 · 16-01-2015 10:55pm

The One Doctor wrote: »

Does SpaceX user vernier engines for landing the first stage? It'd save them a lot of faffing around if not.

cold gas trusters AFAIK

Hmmzis · 16-01-2015 11:25pm

shedweller wrote: »

It fairly chucked the top overboard eh?!
One thing thats bothering me. It was coming down very fast and how much of this is due to the loss of steering?
Because if it was doing that speed in an upright position it would have ended badly anyway.
They've done this on dry land anyway so im confident for the next effort.
We need more of this awesomeness!

It certainly solves the mystery of the missing bits (well, most of the stage actually). If the hydraulics failed with a minute to go then that's fairly high up still. The gimball of the engine apparently wasn't enough to balance out the stage. My understanding is that only a very limited deviation from vertical can be controlled by gimballing engines without adding excessive horizontal velocity.

thecommander · 17-01-2015 12:43am

The One Doctor wrote: »

Does SpaceX user vernier engines for landing the first stage? It'd save them a lot of faffing around if not.

No need for them, would add far too much weight swell. They've shown with the grasshopper tests and CRS5 landing that they can get to a point without them. Not enough hydraulic fluid was the problem, once they have enough I'd be certain enough they'll land it (unless some unknown issue arises)

shedweller · 17-01-2015 2:39am

I was just thinking. The extra hydraulic fluid is going to weigh more. How would it compare to having a return line to the hydraulic pump and reuse a smaller amount of hydraulic fluid? Like a normal hydraulic system.
Ok, this would require an in depth knowlege of the rocket to give a definite answer but still, there's some merit in that surely?
And i know there would have to be extensive re-testing done. But it would mean the controls will stay working no matter what.
Anyway, i had to ask. I dont like seeing machines breaking down!

thecommander · 17-01-2015 11:34am

shedweller wrote: »

I was just thinking. The extra hydraulic fluid is going to weigh more. How would it compare to having a return line to the hydraulic pump and reuse a smaller amount of hydraulic fluid? Like a normal hydraulic system.
Ok, this would require an in depth knowlege of the rocket to give a definite answer but still, there's some merit in that surely?
And i know there would have to be extensive re-testing done. But it would mean the controls will stay working no matter what.
Anyway, i had to ask. I dont like seeing machines breaking down!

If you have a closed loop you need pumps which add weight and complexity. They use pressurised gas to pump the fluid out, seems to be a case of just adding more fluid (and more gas I guess)

Capt'n Midnight · 17-01-2015 8:56pm

thecommander wrote: »

If you have a closed loop you need pumps which add weight and complexity. They use pressurised gas to pump the fluid out, seems to be a case of just adding more fluid (and more gas I guess)

Actually it's cleverer than that they reuse the fluid in the engines because it's fuel.

There's a lot to be said for using simple reliable systems even if they are slightly heavier. Complexity adds risk. And given the % of spaceflight failures shaving off too much weight on stage 1 is just asking for trouble.

http://space.stackexchange.com/questions/7771/why-does-the-falcon-9-consume-hydraulic-fluid

Falcon 9 uses an open hydraulic system that has a separate tank of RP-1 (which is used as the hydraulic fluid) pressurized by Nitrogen near the interstage, which, after use, drains down back into the main RP-1 tank for "reuse" by the engines. There are a variety of reasons that SpaceX made decisions to use this design:

shedweller · 17-01-2015 11:13pm

I must humbly hang my head in shame for not thinking of that...
D'oh!

thecommander · 18-01-2015 10:46am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Complexity adds risk.

Exactly. So don't use more pumps.

irishgeo · 20-01-2015 9:45am

Is it supposed to land on the barge horizontal or vertical.

shedweller · 20-01-2015 11:08am

irishgeo wrote: »

Is it supposed to land on the barge horizontal or vertical.

Vertical. Wouldnt want to be much swell in the sea when it lands!

_Jumper_ · 21-01-2015 3:38am

Google and Fidelity Investments have bought just shy of 10% of SpaceX, plan to pump money into helping it develop Satellite Internet for undeveloped/underserved regions around the world or in Musks case, beginnings of Internet for Mars Colony.

Values SpaceX at 10 Bil Dollars.

Valuations be crazy.

What would be a good name? Hmm, Trans Net?

gigaom.com/2015/01/19/elon-musks-satellite-plan-project-loon-without-helium-or-latency/

bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-20/musk-s-spacex-sells-10-stake-to-google-fidelity-for-1-billion.html?hootPostID=e032d9a22131660ad2c3ecfaa1639a46

nokia69 · 28-01-2015 12:33am

can't wait to see this badboy fly

nokia69 · 08-02-2015 4:34pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Climate_Observatory

possible spaceX launch tonight, just after 11

they will also try first stage recovery again but it will be harder than the ISS missions, so who knows if it will work

you can watch it at http://www.spacex.com/webcast/

thecommander · 09-02-2015 12:09am

Tomorrow so!

MayoForSam · 10-02-2015 10:31pm

Now happening at 10:45pm tonight (live webcast).

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2015 11:51pm

now showing live feed

greedygoblin · 10-02-2015 11:53pm

No go?

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2015 11:55pm

high altitude winds so tune in again tomorrow at 23:00

Hmmzis · 10-02-2015 11:55pm

aaand it's a scrub - 151% violation of high altitude winds if I heard the comms right.

Knifey Spoony · 11-02-2015 9:42pm

Looks like they won't be attempting recovery of the first stage using the drone ship due to weather in the Atlantic.

There'll be a soft landing in the water instead.

http://www.spacex.com/press/2015/02/11/dscovr-launch-update

nokia69 · 06-03-2015 1:24pm

falcon 9 first stage on the road to the cape, might be for CRS 6

SpaceX's Grasshopper VTVL takes a 40 meter hop

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