Who created the 26 counties?

paky · 01-09-2012 1:22pm #1

Who was responsible for creating the 26 county state of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland as the British like to call it?
I know for certain that it wasn't an Irishman. Somebody mentioned here before that Winston Churchill was the sole architect but I don't know for sure. And whoever it was, why aren't they remembered?

cristoir · 01-09-2012 1:32pm

The first mention of partition goes as far back as the Gladstones first attempted Home Rule Bill where exemptions for the 4 most north eastern county's where voted on as amendments.

Partition first became mainstream supported position of the British in the Government of Ireland Act 1920. The then radical idea of two home rule parliaments came from Walter Long.

paky · 01-09-2012 1:43pm

So essentially, the founders of the 26 county state were British and not Irish. SO why is it then that this state commemorates Irish Republicans when the state was created by the British?

charlemont · 01-09-2012 1:47pm

paky wrote: »

So essentially, the founders of the 26 county state were British and not Irish. SO why is it then that this state commemorates Irish Republicans when the state was created by the British?

What a question ?

Seanchai · 01-09-2012 1:51pm

cristoir wrote: »

The first mention of partition goes as far back as the Gladstones first attempted Home Rule Bill where exemptions for the 4 most north eastern county's where voted on as amendments.

Can you be more precise here? As far as I know, the first mention of partition was in 1912 and then all 9 counties of Ulster were mentioned. As far as I'm aware it was only in the summer of 1920 that the Unionists, meeting in Glengall Street, decided to request that six counties opt out of Home Rule.

Fenian Army · 01-09-2012 4:00pm

Well obviously there was a great deal of collaboration with the British by supposed republicans - even extending to using British guns against Irishmen and engaging in a level of barbarity their masters would have been proud of.

Why does the Irish state commemorate Irish republicans? It was part of an attempt to divert support away from Irish republicanism by pretending to be republican - to muddy the waters as to what republicanism actually was. Saying one thing, doing another - indeed the exact opposite. Lip service was essential. They diluted the message of Irish patriots to serve their own limited vision of "liberty". Irish politicians have long been good at this (Fianna Fáil in particular)

Lynch went from "not standing idly by" in 1969 to saying cathoilics and nationalists in the north didn't need protection from the British state:

Just a few months after Bloody Sunday.

jonniebgood1 · 01-09-2012 5:26pm

Seanchai wrote: »

As far as I know, the first mention of partition was in 1912 and then all 9 counties of Ulster were mentioned. As far as I'm aware it was only in the summer of 1920 that the Unionists, meeting in Glengall Street, decided to request that six counties opt out of Home Rule.

Wrong.

The historical record shows that partition in its modern guise was discussed alongside earlier home rule bills. In 'The long gestation' by Patrick Maume, the author says that "In 1893, Unionist conventions in Dublin and Belfast, called to oppose the second home rule bill, denounced partition." (pg 10). They had discussed it as an alternative solution to home rule but rejected it as they wanted the whole of Ireland to remain in union. It is debatable that had home rule been forced through in 1914 that partition would have been given at that stage.

guinnessdrinker · 02-09-2012 10:26am

The reason the Dublin Unionists did not support partition is because they obviously wanted to remain in the union.

This did not affect Unionists in the North East of course who seemed to only care about themselves and not their fellow countrymen in Dublin or any of the other 25 counties that became the Irish Free State.

paky · 02-09-2012 12:45pm

So does this mean that Irish people live in a British statelet?

Fenian Army · 02-09-2012 1:04pm

paky wrote: »

So does this mean that Irish people live in a British statelet?

"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs"

Prophetic words as it turns out from James Connolly.

paky · 02-09-2012 3:37pm

I can't see how it's not a matter of concern for Irish people that they live in a state which was created for them by the British. Through its very inception, the borders in which the British created were based on religious lines, which are totally and utterly contrary to any sense of what is to be considered free, secular or republican!

whitelines · 02-09-2012 3:48pm

paky wrote: »

I can't see how it's not a matter of concern for Irish people that they live in a state which was created for them by the British. Through its very inception, the borders in which the British created were based on religious lines, which are totally and utterly contrary to any sense of what is to be considered free, secular or republican!

Religion was an important parameter at that time and one on which many borders between states were settled. In any case, then as now, the terms Protestant and Catholic were as much ethnic labels as anything else. You could say that the new border was put in place in order to recognise the reality of two peoples living on the island - The Irish and The Ulster British - both entitled to self determination.

whitelines · 02-09-2012 3:52pm

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

The reason the Dublin Unionists did not support partition is because they obviously wanted to remain in the union.

This did not affect Unionists in the North East of course who seemed to only care about themselves and not their fellow countrymen in Dublin or any of the other 25 counties that became the Irish Free State.

It was irrelevant whether they cared or not - they couldn't do anything for them (except provide safe haven following partition). Similar to the uncaring 26 county 'nationalists' ditching 500 000 of their fellow 'nationalists' trapped in NI.

paky · 02-09-2012 3:57pm

whitelines wrote: »

Religion was an important parameter at that time and one on which many borders between states were settled. In any case, then as now, the terms Protestant and Catholic were as much ethnic labels as anything else. You could say that the new border was put in place in order to recognise the reality of two peoples living on the island - The Irish and The Ulster British - both entitled to self determination.

Yes these were all factors the British took into account upon deciding to what extent the Irish could be free. It was hardly self determination at that point?

whitelines · 02-09-2012 6:13pm

paky wrote: »

Yes these were all factors the British took into account upon deciding to what extent the Irish could be free. It was hardly self determination at that point?

It seems like self determination to me. What was the alternative?

tac foley · 02-09-2012 8:25pm

paky wrote: »

Who was responsible for creating the 26 county state of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland as the British like to call it?
I know for certain that it wasn't an Irishman. Somebody mentioned here before that Winston Churchill was the sole architect but I don't know for sure. And whoever it was, why aren't they remembered?

Not only the British, but the rest of the English-speaking world, according to the government of the Republic of Ireland -

The Irish Constitution of 1937 says: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland".

The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948, says: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

Irish passports simply bear the name Ireland.

Irish government regulations and official statements frequently refer to "the Republic of Ireland".

Or, in Irish -

"Poblacht na hÉireann" or "Saorstát Éireann"

I hope that clears it up for you.

tac

corktina · 03-09-2012 12:01pm

the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

dubhthach · 03-09-2012 1:50pm

corktina wrote: »

the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

I usually retort that I'm not from the South, I'm from the Wesht!

which always leads to confusion hah

LordSutch · 03-09-2012 2:06pm

corktina wrote: »

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

Outsiders use the term Southern Ireland to distinguish us from Northern Ireland, a wholly understandable and logical term for outsiders I think.
On this issue, was watching the build up to the American football match in the AviVa stadium over the weekend on the RTE news and an american supporter said that he was really glad to be visiting southern Ireland. Fair enough I think we know what he means, his small change being in Euro/Cents and not Sterling.

corktina · 03-09-2012 2:09pm

understandable but still ignorant at the best.

im invisible · 03-09-2012 2:16pm

tac foley wrote: »

I hope that clears it up for you.

tac

not really...

pedroeibar1 · 03-09-2012 3:21pm

corktina wrote: »

the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

Agree on the North/South 'geographic' bit, but my experience when working for an English company was that everyone invariably called it 'Eire' which for some reason I found more annoying. It provoked me to start referring to the branch in Wales as the office in Cymru and suggested that it be referred to as such in company literature to ensure consistency..... (Exasperated cry from Marketing Dept.- 'Look, it bloody Eire, that's what you have on you money isn't it!')

dubhthach · 03-09-2012 3:48pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

(Exasperated cry from Marketing Dept.- 'Look, it bloody Eire, that's what you have on you money isn't it!')

hah of course it's even funnier when you realise that Eire ≠ Éire, without the fada they are two totally different words (pronounced differently to boot!). Of course you can always retort by referring to any branches in Belfast as been in "Northern Éire" or heavens forbid Ulaidh.

tac foley · 03-09-2012 4:07pm

I've had this argument countless times - one such interchange ended when I suggested that the company concerned referred to the English part of GB as 'Angleterre', in much the same way as the Scots use 'Écosse' on their car bumper stickers.

The Welsh, correctly, call their country by its national language name, Cymru, as you can see by the bumper sticker on mrs tac's car - she is, of course, Welsh.

IMO, if you wish to draw other folks' attention to your British nationality, and they can't for some reason, identify you by the vehicle plates, you should have a sticker that reads 'Britannia'. Meanwhile we are left over here with either GB big island only] or UK [big island plus a bit of the other big island] or nothin'.

My dad, being Irish, always called it Ireland, and that's what I call it, too.

tac

tac foley · 03-09-2012 4:12pm

corktina wrote: »

the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

I'd bet a tidy sum that most of those who live here do not know that the top part of the island of Ireland is NOT all part of the UK. My next-door neighbour's wife is from Malin, BTW. She laffs as she tells about coming from northern Ireland, as opposed to Northern Ireland.

BTW, I'm SURE you meant BriTish, didn't you?

tac

Bazzo · 03-09-2012 4:22pm

I'd bet a tidy sum that most of those who live here do not know that the top part of the island of Ireland is NOT all part of the UK. My next-door neighbour's wife is from Malin, BTW. She laffs as she tells about coming from northern Ireland, as opposed to Northern Ireland.

BTW, I'm SURE you meant BriTish, didn't you?

tac

I'd take that bet to be honest. I have never met a single Irish person who wasn't aware of the location of Donegal and the fact that it's not a part of Northern Ireland. It's taught to everyone in primary school geography.

Pawwed Rig · 03-09-2012 5:01pm

I would take that bet too. It is fairly drilled down your throat in primary school where the location of all the counties, mountains, rivers etc are.

dubhthach · 03-09-2012 5:13pm

Given that Tac doesn't live in Ireland I would think it's safe to assume that he meant that "most of those who live here do not know that the top part of the island of Ireland is NOT all part of the UK" applies to where he lives. (UK?)

Fenian Army · 03-09-2012 5:31pm

When the ignorant ask "which Ireland" I'm from, I simply reply "Ireland". I don't have a partitionist mindset.

As if there'd be a major difference if I happened to live 20 mins up the road! (compared to say crossing borders in continental Europe)

corktina · 03-09-2012 7:14pm

i think its Sainsburys in the UK have a maop on their TV ad which shows the Border as a straight line across the map west to east....

ps Britlish, yes I am from Japan...:D (OMG that smilie is sooo racist...

tac foley · 03-09-2012 7:40pm

corktina wrote: »

i think its Sainsburys in the UK have a maop on their TV ad which shows the Border as a straight line across the map west to east....

ps Britlish, yes I am from Japan...:D (OMG that smilie is sooo racist...

What a coincidence! Until recently I worked in Tokyo - since 2004.

Must admit that I didn't see too many green people there, though.;)

tac

Gee Bag · 03-09-2012 9:28pm

Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

Article 4 of the constitution gives the offical name of the state. Seems we are called Éire and Ireland (which surprised me).

Personally I don't really mind people mixing up the Southern/Republic of Ireland thing. After all, nobody really calls North Korea by its slightly deceptive offical name, the Democratic Republic of Korea!

dubhthach · 03-09-2012 9:39pm

Gee Bag wrote: »

Article 4 of the constitution gives the offical name of the state. Seems we are called Éire and Ireland (which surprised me).

Personally I don't really mind people mixing up the Southern/Republic of Ireland thing. After all, nobody really calls North Korea by its slightly deceptive offical name, the Democratic Republic of Korea!

To be pedantic the Irish version of text is actually the official text, the english version is a translation. If we are to fully translate it then we get the following:

Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland

The name of the State is Ireland, or, in the English
language, Ireland.

Of course the word Ireland derives from éire + land (with the é lobbed off -- Cambro-Normans for ye!)

Gee Bag · 03-09-2012 9:53pm

dubhthach wrote: »

To be pedantic the Irish version of text is actually the official text,

Of course the word Ireland derives from éire + land (with the é lobbed off -- Cambro-Normans for ye!)

I always thought I was from a place called Éireann.

Fratton Fred · 03-09-2012 10:18pm

Hhmm, I agree a lot of Brits get confused about which bit of Ireland is which, but in fairness a quick read through some AH threads shows that there is a certain amount of confusion about what is England/Scotland/Britain.

I've pointed out many times that an athlete, swimmer or cyclist is British not English and that it is the British team and not English. To which the usual reply is "ah, its the same thing really".

Chris Hoy might disagree.

dubhthach · 03-09-2012 10:29pm

Gee Bag wrote: »

I always thought I was from a place called Éireann.

Éireann is the genitive case of Éire. Just as Dubhthaigh is the genitive case of Dubhthach, this marks where one noun modifies another one (eg shows possession of one noun on other). So prime example here would be -- Poblacht na hÉireann

Poblacht (noun 1) affects/acts on Éire (noun 2) thus you use the genitive case (Éireann).

other examples would be (it's also used as plural)
Sasanach -> Sasanaigh (Englishman -> Englishmen)
Connachtach -> Connachtaigh (Connachtman -> Connachtmen)
Ultach -> Ultaigh (Ulsterman -> Ulstermen)

Milk & Honey · 03-09-2012 11:51pm

corktina wrote: »

the name of the state is Ireland in the same way that the Republic of France is referred to as France.

As a matter of interest, most Britlish people refer to it NOT as the Republic but as Southern Ireland,(as in the Opposite of Northen Ireland presumably) a wholly incorrect description which I'm amazed the Irish don't ever seem to object to, particularly those in Donegal who live further North than anywhere in Northern Ireland!

Southern Ireland is not a wholly incorrect description. The Government of Ireland Act of 1920 created Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland remained as it was but Southern Ireland evolved itself to the Republic of Ireland.
Referring to Southern Ireland is no worse than referring to Zimbabwe as Rhodesia or Myanamar as Burma.

tac foley · 04-09-2012 12:14am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hhmm, I agree a lot of Brits get confused about which bit of Ireland is which, but in fairness a quick read through some AH threads shows that there is a certain amount of confusion about what is England/Scotland/Britain.

I've pointed out many times that an athlete, swimmer or cyclist is British not English and that it is the British team and not English. To which the usual reply is "ah, its the same thing really".

Chris Hoy might disagree.

Andy Murray certainly would.

Just like a Welshman would also disagree. Please feel free to call the Paralympic Gold Medallist discus thrower Aled Davies an Englishman, and see how far that gets you...

tac

im invisible · 04-09-2012 5:25am

something something great british rowers...

MadsL · 04-09-2012 5:40am

As a corollary to the question, when were the 32 counties one nation?

Amirani · 04-09-2012 6:11am

MadsL wrote: »

As a corollary to the question, when were the 32 counties one nation?

For a short period in December 1922 before Northern Ireland chose to secede.

MadsL · 04-09-2012 6:13am

NiallSparky wrote: »

For a short period in December 1922 before Northern Ireland chose to secede.

...and before that?

getz · 04-09-2012 8:40am

Fenian Army wrote: »

When the ignorant ask "which Ireland" I'm from, I simply reply "Ireland". I don't have a partitionist mindset.

As if there'd be a major difference if I happened to live 20 mins up the road! (compared to say crossing borders in continental Europe)

are you sure ? why do some irish believe that everyone from the UK has it in for them,they seem to want to take every thing thats not politically correct as a insult, moaning about someone who says southern irish,yet seem quite happy to call those in the north nordies,the scots often call the english sassenach[gaelic word means southener] it doesent upset the english one bit,why get worked up there is no real intent to be insulting,

Milk & Honey · 04-09-2012 10:11am

MadsL wrote: »

...and before that?

There were no counties in Ireland before the British came.

MadsL · 04-09-2012 2:48pm

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There were no counties in Ireland before the British came.

That's not what I asked. I asked when were the existing 32 counties (ie the whole Island) a single nation before that?

dubhthach · 04-09-2012 3:37pm

MadsL wrote: »

That's not what I asked. I asked when were the existing 32 counties (ie the whole Island) a single nation before that?

Depends on what you define as a Nation, is it that you mean a unitary state? In that case Germany didn't exist as a nation before 1871 and Italy wasn't a nation before 1870.

MadsL · 04-09-2012 3:47pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Depends on what you define as a Nation, is it that you mean a unitary state? In that case Germany didn't exist as a nation before 1871 and Italy wasn't a nation before 1870.

Simple definition, single unified independent entity ruled by a single government/leader/chief/clan/tribe etc.

dubhthach · 04-09-2012 4:15pm

MadsL wrote: »

Simple definition, single unified independent entity ruled by a single government/leader/chief/clan/tribe etc.

So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

whitelines · 04-09-2012 4:53pm

dubhthach wrote: »

So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

Seems reasonable. When do you think it came into existence?

MadsL · 04-09-2012 5:19pm

dubhthach wrote: »

So you believe that the German nation only came into existence in 1871 then?

I'm not talking about 'belief' or trying to prove a point. I'm curious as to when the Irish 'nation' was first considered a 'nation'.

The phrase 'a nation once again' springs to mind, ergo when was Ireland a 'nation' prior to 1922.

dubhthach · 04-09-2012 5:36pm

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not talking about 'belief' or trying to prove a point. I'm curious as to when the Irish 'nation' was first considered a 'nation'.

The phrase 'a nation once again' springs to mind, ergo when was Ireland a 'nation' prior to 1922.

Well at least one early reference to a nation -- in the context of Gaeldom -- is the letter of King Robert I of Scotland that dates from 1315:

Whereas we and you and our people and your people, free since ancient times, share the same national ancestry and are urged to come together more eagerly and joyfully in friendship by a common language and by common custom, we have sent you our beloved kinsman, the bearers of this letter, to negotiate with you in our name about permanently strengthening and maintaining inviolate the special friendship between us and you, so that with God's will our nation (nostra nacio) may be able to recover her ancient liberty.

Of course his brother Edward Bruce was proclaimed King of Ireland in 1315, only later to be killed in the Battle of Faughart in 1318.

From same time period we see the famous Remonstrance (to the pope) of 1317, which several times talks about an "Irish nation".

Who created the 26 counties?

Comments