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Heat Pumps - post here.

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Comments

  • #1352
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    A heat exchanger will take heat from any source. The well water drops about 2C I think. This particularly suits us in Ireland with our one off rural housing usually with our own well supply. This would not be common in other countries, hence it not being widely developed and marketed.
    Great also if near a stream or lake.


  • #1353
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    The cost of drilling AND correctly lining two bore holes is usually the sticking point.


  • #1354
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If you have a well there is already one borehole? What is the issue with lining?


  • #1355
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Generally a borehole is lined to the rock, to prevent fall in. A sealed borehole however would be a higher cost operation and not needed for heating.


  • #1356
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    So the well for water would be a sealed borehole but the return bore would not be sealed? Does this leave the groundwater susceptible to contamination?


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  • #1357
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Most bore wells are not sealed, just lined. They probably should be sealed. Personally I would discharge to a watercourse, it's not grey water. Not sure of the guidelines/legalities of that.
    Farmers use similar to precool milk with a plate cooler. The water is often used for yard washing afterwards.


  • #1358
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,780 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Hmm. No watercourse, would have to be back to ground. Still its worth keeping in mind.


  • #1359
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Came across this recently when doing some research on Heat Pumps

    I am familiar with degradation coefficient as a concept, but am puzzled by the oversized reference.
    Any thoughts?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #1360
    MOTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭MOTM


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Came across this recently when doing some research on Heat Pumps

    I am familiar with degradation coefficient as a concept, but am puzzled by the oversized reference.
    Any thoughts?

    Not sure if you meant to include a weblink there? However, reference ecodesign regulation 813/2013:

    "‘degradation coefficient’ (Cdh) means the measure of efficiency loss due to cycling of heat pump space heaters or heat pump combination heaters; if Cdh is not determined by measurement then the default degradation coefficient is Cdh = 0,9;"

    If the heat pump is oversized, it will cycle more. Declared COP applies if the unit can drop to the level of the heat demand. If the minimum COP of the unit is higher than the heat demand, then the degradation coefficient applies.


  • #1361
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    MOTM wrote: »
    Not sure if you meant to include a weblink there? However, reference ecodesign regulation 813/2013:

    "‘degradation coefficient’ (Cdh) means the measure of efficiency loss due to cycling of heat pump space heaters or heat pump combination heaters; if Cdh is not determined by measurement then the default degradation coefficient is Cdh = 0,9;"

    If the heat pump is oversized, it will cycle more. Declared COP applies if the unit can drop to the level of the heat demand. If the minimum COP of the unit is higher than the heat demand, then the degradation coefficient applies.


    Many thanks!
    Would you mind putting some numbers on the last sentence: say my heat demand is 8kW and I have a choice of a 7 or a 9 kW

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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  • #1362
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,831 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    why would it cycle more if theres a proper interlock system set up to only demand a set space temp ??

    would an oversized HP get to the required space temp quicker than say an under sized one, and would there therefore be a trade off with this degradation coefficient?


  • #1363
    MOTM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭MOTM


    I don't have answers to either of the above questions other than to say that my answer is based on what is in the ecodesign regs (813) and the gist of what is in EN14825 on this parameter. Maybe someone here who works for a heat pump supplier might have more insight than I do?


  • #1364
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    why would it cycle more if theres a proper interlock system set up to only demand a set space temp ??........

    Might this relate to units that turn off when hi set point is reached and turn on again when low set point is reached ?

    In the A2A segment its many, many years since I came across a unit that wasnt inverter based ( and thus capable of 'modulation' as gas boiler guys might call it ).

    Perhaps it is an issue in A2W ? a lot of those units seem to be very basic.


  • #1365
    VonLuck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

    Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?


  • #1366
    mairbu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 ✭mairbu


    VonLuck wrote: »
    I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

    Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

    I looked into this earlier this year for an apartment (80's build, currently electric storage) and across all air to air pump providers, I couldn't find any in Ireland who fitted apartments, or who knew of an apartment successfully fitted to date.


  • #1367
    ercork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    VonLuck wrote: »
    I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

    Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

    Air to air heat pumps are a great retrofit for small houses or apartments which are limited to electric heating. Physically, the installation is very straightforward and only takes a few hours. The issue for apartments is whether or not the management company will allow the outdoor unit to be installed on the balcony or on the wall. You will just have to ask them in advance I suppose.


  • #1368
    al2009
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 176 ✭✭al2009


    Once you've a location for outdoor unit and access for services it's quite staight forward. I think the Elysian in cork is air to air, also 2 apartment blocks in killarney are air to air. Plenty of air con companies should be able to quote you.


  • #1369
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    ercork wrote: »
    Air to air heat pumps are a great retrofit for small houses or apartments which are limited to electric heating. Physically, the installation is very straightforward and only takes a few hours. The issue for apartments is whether or not the management company will allow the outdoor unit to be installed on the balcony or on the wall. You will just have to ask them in advance I suppose.

    So how does this work, assuming the unit can be put outside?
    How is the heat delivered to all the rooms in the house/apt?
    Is there ducting involved?
    how does it integrate with the ventilation strategy for the apt/house?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #1370
    ercork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 177 ✭✭ercork


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    So how does this work, assuming the unit can be put outside?
    How is the heat delivered to all the rooms in the house/apt?
    Is there ducting involved?
    how does it integrate with the ventilation strategy for the apt/house?

    In my own case I installed one in my small two bed house (70m2). The downstairs is mostly open plan so the single indoor unit keeps the place warm. By leaving the stairs door open enough warm air rises to keep the bedrooms at an adequate temperature. I did hold on to the two panel heaters in the bedrooms to give some extra heat but didn't need them that often last winter.

    Small apartments should work out okay too. Larger properties would need multiple indoor units which would require ducting.


  • #1371
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    ercork wrote: »
    In my own case I installed one in my small two bed house (70m2). The downstairs is mostly open plan so the single indoor unit keeps the place warm. By leaving the stairs door open enough warm air rises to keep the bedrooms at an adequate temperature. I did hold on to the two panel heaters in the bedrooms to give some extra heat but didn't need them that often last winter.

    Small apartments should work out okay too. Larger properties would need multiple indoor units which would require ducting.

    You can get units with two indoor ‘heads’ connected to a single outdoor unit. They can be operated independently.


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  • #1372
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    VonLuck wrote: »
    I'm currently looking at buying an apartment which has those terrible electric storage heaters. As I am typically out of the house from 7am to 7pm during weekdays, it doesn't really seem like a practical heating option.

    Some people have advised me to look at air to air heat pumps. Is this a practical option in an existing apartment? I'm not exactly sure of how it connects to the heating system, or the units I would need. Would it be a planning issue to provide a heat pump unit on the balcony? Would I even be permitted to route pipes through the apartment wall?

    Over on the accom forum there is a thread on a similar subject

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057991516

    Essentially its the same arrangement as you find in most european apartments with aircon. ( one or more outside and indoor units ). These units can generally be used for heating or cooling.

    Even the Kiwis are at it. Harvey Norman sell them over there :p

    https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-and-air-conditioners/mitsubishi-electric-hypercore-fh35-heat-pump-air-conditioner.html


    ( € 1 = NZD 1.5 at the present. Note units require specialist installation and are not suitable for DIY )


  • #1373
    VonLuck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    0lddog wrote: »
    Over on the accom forum there is a thread on a similar subject

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057991516

    Essentially its the same arrangement as you find in most european apartments with aircon. ( one or more outside and indoor units ). These units can generally be used for heating or cooling.

    Even the Kiwis are at it. Harvey Norman sell them over there :p

    https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/home-appliances/heating-and-cooling/heat-pumps-and-air-conditioners/mitsubishi-electric-hypercore-fh35-heat-pump-air-conditioner.html


    ( € 1 = NZD 1.5 at the present. Note units require specialist installation and are not suitable for DIY )

    Good to know! Would there be much benefit in an apartment which already has GFCH?


  • #1374
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    VonLuck wrote: »
    Good to know! Would there be much benefit in an apartment which already has GFCH?


    Is this a different apartment ? ( perhaps I missunderstood your original post :confused: )


  • #1375
    VonLuck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    0lddog wrote: »
    Is this a different apartment ? ( perhaps I missunderstood your original post :confused: )

    I've been looking at multiple apartments and a very small number of them have GFCH. Was just curious as to it's ever worth considering in that scenario where gas heating is cheaper than electric.


  • #1376
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    VonLuck wrote: »
    I've been looking at multiple apartments and a very small number of them have GFCH. Was just curious as to it's ever worth considering in that scenario where gas heating is cheaper than electric.


    Expect a fair amount of grief when changing the heating method of an apartment. Why do it if you dont really need to ?


  • #1377
    VonLuck
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    0lddog wrote: »
    Expect a fair amount of grief when changing the heating method of an apartment. Why do it if you dont really need to ?

    Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?

    It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?


  • #1378
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    VonLuck wrote: »
    Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?

    It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?

    Have you worked out what type of storage heater is in place? What is it usage? How much per year will it cost?

    The old storage heater where awful but the newer ones can work ok....get the details before spending a fortune which might make apartment colder


  • #1379
    0lddog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    VonLuck wrote: »
    Well I suppose that's my question. Would you?
    It's less about changing the method, but supplementing it. Can an air to air heat pump actually deliver all your heating needs?

    If it has GFCH and its working well then I wouldnt see any need - at least not in the near term, maybe look at it again if, say, the boiler needed to be replaced.

    If speced to match the heat requirement of the apartment then of course A2A can do the space heating. ( The house I'm in at present is heated by A2A heat pumps )





    @Shefw see post 1375 ( the goal posts are a little elastic )


  • #1380
    ecowise
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ecowise


    We have a Genie 9kW ground source heat pump installed in 2001. It has served us well over the 18 years but during the last heating season the compressor cut out on 5 occasions (usually soon after coming on) and I am wondering if it is time to look for a replacement heat pump or can it be serviced to be more reliable. It worked fine each time after being reset but it is a nuisance as it is timed to come on at night so it only gets discovered the following day. The compressor make is Copeland. Has anyone experience of these units or knowledge about compressor reliability/longevity?


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  • #1381
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Copeland has a good name in the compressor world, you see them a lot on building sites.
    18 years is probably at end of life or close there to, depending on the run hours and more crucially the head pressure, worth getting a service call

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #1382
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    ecowise wrote: »
    We have a Genie 9kW ground source heat pump installed in 2001. It has served us well over the 18 years but during the last heating season the compressor cut out on 5 occasions (usually soon after coming on) and I am wondering if it is time to look for a replacement heat pump or can it be serviced to be more reliable. It worked fine each time after being reset but it is a nuisance as it is timed to come on at night so it only gets discovered the following day. The compressor make is Copeland. Has anyone experience of these units or knowledge about compressor reliability/longevity?

    It might not be the compressor. Could be something like the soft starter.

    Get a service guy out and see what the root cause is first and if it is the compressor and everything else is Ok it should be fine to just fix it. Don’t see why you’d have to replace the whole heat pump if everything else is fine.


  • #1383
    ecowise
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ecowise


    Thanks for suggestions. Being in a very rural location it is a bit more difficult getting a service but there are some talented refrigeration people around who understand the basic components so I will try that route.


  • #1384
    Stephen_89
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Stephen_89


    Can heat pumps work in a house with suspended wood floors? Having EWI done, eindows, doors and attic insulation and thinking of heatpump. Would we need to fill floors for thermal mass or would rigid board between joists cut it?
    House is detached dormer with c. 2400sqft area. 200m2 area downstairs.

    Cheers!


  • #1385
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I doubt it Stephen. The whole idea of underfloor heating is that there is a large concrete thermal mass there. Heating the timber directly as your heat store would have the heat pump cycling continuously.


  • #1386
    ch750536
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    I have a standard 4 bed single story, burning oil at the moment and want to stop as it is bad for the environment. House built in 2004 with good insulation. Family of 4 who have a good understanding of being frugal (put on a jumper, showers only etc).

    Is there a good approx price for this standard setup? At the moment it seems you need to get quotes from different companies, quite painful where I am in the back woods of the west coast. I don't want to call people in until I have enough savings.


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  • #1387
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    How good is the air tightness?
    Is house site exposed to salt air?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #1388
    ecowise
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ecowise


    ch750536 wrote: »
    I have a standard 4 bed single story, burning oil at the moment and want to stop as it is bad for the environment. House built in 2004 with good insulation. Family of 4 who have a good understanding of being frugal (put on a jumper, showers only etc).

    Is there a good approx price for this standard setup? At the moment it seems you need to get quotes from different companies, quite painful where I am in the back woods of the west coast. I don't want to call people in until I have enough savings.

    I think, as suggested by Callahonda52 regarding air tightness, it is best to first optimise house thermal characteristics. What was considered good insulation in 2004 was not very good. The same is true for glazing & doors. Having looked at what options you have to thermally improve the house then evaluate heating options.


  • #1389
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Stephen, you can. On the ground floor you need insulation under, then and you put in spreader plates. These are a metal sheet moulded with two or three U's to take the UFH pipes and sit on the joices.
    Yes as Cross says you don't have the mass, so this works as a direct heating system with a quick response. It would work best with a large heat storage cylinder and a secondary loop. This would reduce the on/off switching on the HP.


  • #1390
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    Stephen, you can. On the ground floor you need insulation under, then and you put in spreader plates. These are a metal sheet moulded with two or three U's to take the UFH pipes and sit on the joices.
    Yes as Cross says you don't have the mass, so this works as a direct heating system with a quick response. It would work best with a large heat storage cylinder and a secondary loop. This would reduce the on/off switching on the HP.

    I'd say it would not be efficient, have reduced lifespan on the compressor and not give great heat.

    A loop of pipes under the floor with no concrete to heat up is going to be a poor heat distribution system. Radiators would probably be better and they're not ideal either.

    Do you know someone that has their system setup like you describe?
    I'd be interested to know how much cycling the pump is doing.


  • #1391
    ch750536
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    How good is the air tightness?
    Is house site exposed to salt air?

    Pretty good, no.


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  • #1392
    mcbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 460 ✭✭mcbert


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    How good is the air tightness?
    Is house site exposed to salt air?

    Is sea air really a problem? It is a small enough island, with a large % of our population living within a few miles of the sea, Im guessing. How close to the sea is 'bad' ? And what are all those people supposed to do if HPs arent suitable for sea air?


  • #1393
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    mcbert wrote: »
    Is sea air really a problem? It is a small enough island, with a large % of our population living within a few miles of the sea, Im guessing. How close to the sea is 'bad' ? And what are all those people supposed to do if HPs arent suitable for sea air?

    It only affects Air-To-Water heat pumps, not Ground Source heat pumps. The reason being that A2W heat pumps have a unit (with a coil) physically located outdoors and the salt air will corrode that over time... hard to quantify though... which is your point I guess.

    A ground source heat pump has nothing outside other than pipes which are under the ground protected from all weather, even frost.


    If someone who works in the trade is on here they might share their experience of servicing an A2W system that has been on the coastline for 5-10 years?


  • #1394
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    mcbert wrote: »
    Is sea air really a problem? It is a small enough island, with a large % of our population living within a few miles of the sea, Im guessing. How close to the sea is 'bad' ? And what are all those people supposed to do if HPs arent suitable for sea air?

    Specifically designed models have stainless steel kit outside, with more accessibility to clean the salt off the evaporator.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #1395
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Specifically designed models have stainless steel kit outside, with more accessibility to clean the salt off the evaporator.

    How bad does that become over say one winter.... is it something you do once a year or every few weeks?


  • #1396
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Hi I'm wondering about an air to air pump for a three bed bungalow, the layout is typical suburban "long and narrow" with 6 rooms and a hallway, the east gable end has the back garden, I'd hope there was a system which could power at least three units - kitchen (back)/bathroom (side)/lounge(same side-front) - who can be recommended as a supplier and fitter for such a set up?


  • #1397
    MENACE2010
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭MENACE2010


    you need to find an installer in your area, they can calculate what you need . The description is not detailed enough for an assesment online .. in this forum ( its impossible to asses the heating needs of your house )


  • #1398
    angeldaisy
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭angeldaisy


    Could someone offer some advice please.
    We built our house in 2002 and installed underfloor heating powered by a ground source heat pump.
    Unfortunately there has been a leak in one of the heat exchangers, which has caused huge problems and both the refrigeration team and the heat pump company we use have informed us that as the unit is 17 years old it is not feasible to repair it.

    So my options are;
    Replace with another ground source heat pump
    Replace with an Air to water heat pump
    or install an oil boiler to heat the house.

    My initial reaction is to discount the oil option, but I am torn between the two different types of pump. It is obviously an expensive outlay, so want to make the best decision and would like some impartial advice if at all possible.
    Many thanks


  • #1399
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Its in their best interest to sell you a new one.

    Do you trust them that its not economic to repair? A leak doesnt sound like a terminal thing but maybe it is.

    Maybe get a second opinion?


  • #1400
    angeldaisy
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭angeldaisy


    As far as I know, I would need to replace the compressor (around 1k) plus the heat exchanger, along with various other components.
    We haven't had much luck with it over the past few years and I've a feeling that this is just the final nail...


  • #1401
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    angeldaisy wrote: »
    As far as I know, I would need to replace the compressor (around 1k) plus the heat exchanger, along with various other components.
    We haven't had much luck with it over the past few years and I've a feeling that this is just the final nail...

    Have you got quotes for another GSHP and an A2W to compare against?

    What have your electricity bills been like? Is the house well insulated?

    GSHP will be cheaper to run but more expensive to buy so its a tradeoff.


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