Rent

Sussy · 28-11-2019 8:05pm #1

When will rent prices stop going up? How can people pay €2000 for a tiny place?

L1011 · 28-11-2019 8:10pm

When supply increases or demand falls - or significant rent controls are put in place; but that would likely result in there just not being anywhere *to* rent.

Sussy · 28-11-2019 8:38pm

L1011 wrote: »

When supply increases or demand falls - or significant rent controls are put in place; but that would likely result in there just not being anywhere *to* rent.

I read all this in the news years ago, but is just getting worst, the government saying they building enough so what is then? Immigration growing like this?

Stop moaning ffs · 28-11-2019 8:39pm

Can never figure that out. Is it increased mortgage rates or just landlord greed?

L1011 · 28-11-2019 8:43pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Can never figure that out. Is it increased mortgage rates or just landlord greed?

Mortgage rates haven't gone up. Landlords are businesses (although many of them don't quite seem to realise that!), they will generally charge what the market can bear.

If that happens to be less than their costs, they can't just increase the price to make it so. This isn't the case now but things like mortgage rates have no direct input on rents (other than potential cases of sellups if unprofitable)

Sussy · 28-11-2019 8:47pm

I think is greed. Also short term contracts and unfurnished properties on the rise on daft. Is absolutely out of control.

DubCount · 28-11-2019 9:12pm

Sussy wrote: »

I read all this in the news years ago, but is just getting worst, the government saying they building enough so what is then? Immigration growing like this?

IMHO, its relating to the following issues:

1) Everyone wants somewhere to live, so changes in price does not decrease demand very much.

2) Government policy is reducing the supply of rental property. Rent controls and increasing regulation means the number of landlords and the number of rental properties is falling, even though rents are increasing.

3) Government policy refuses to address the difficulties in evicting non-paying, overholding or anti-social tenants. This increases the financial risk of being a landlord and that makes the prices charged more expensive.

4) Supply of property is not the same thing as supply of rental property. Much of the additional supply is going towards buy-to-own buyers. Not everyone can (or even wants to) buy-to-own. While the price of property to buy is stable, property to rent is still undersupplied relative to demand because of 2 and 3.

5) There are more votes in keeping the cost of buy-to-own property down, than addressing problems in the rental market. There is no political will to help, because making landlording attractive will mean more competition for buy-to-own buyers from landlord investors.

L1011 · 28-11-2019 9:17pm

Sussy wrote: »

I think is greed. Also short term contracts and unfurnished properties on the rise on daft. Is absolutely out of control.

Unfurnished properties are the norm in many countries and indeed desirable for long-term tenancies. Return the house painted the same colour internally as it was when you leave and you can do whatever the hell you like in between basically.

Irish law makes fully unfurnished illegal as some kitchen devices must be provided.

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-11-2019 9:22pm

Sussy wrote: »

When will rent prices stop going up? How can people pay €2000 for a tiny place?

It should be noted DAFT supplies data on asking rents, the actual RTB figures for current rents are lower. The figures bandied about in the media are DAFT's figures which are skewed by new entrants to the market.

Sussy · 28-11-2019 9:26pm

L1011 wrote: »

Unfurnished properties are the norm in many countries and indeed desirable for long-term tenancies. Return the house painted the same colour internally as it was when you leave and you can do whatever the hell you like in between basically.

Irish law makes fully unfurnished illegal as some kitchen devices must be provided.

Sure is the norm in other counties, where the rent is affordable. If i need to buy furniture and transport it if the landlord change his mined, I expect the rent to be lower then a furnished property.

28-11-2019 9:26pm

Sussy wrote: »

I think is greed. Also short term contracts and unfurnished properties on the rise on daft. Is absolutely out of control.

Why is it greed? The point of running a business is to make as much money as possible. Did you refuse the last pay rise your employer offered you because you didn’t want to be greedy?

Samuel T. Cogley · 28-11-2019 9:29pm

Sussy wrote: »

Sure is the norm in other counties, where the rent is affordable. If i need to buy furniture and transport it if the landlord change his mined, I expect the rent to be lower then a furnished property.

I'd be delighted to offer a discount on the rent for a German style letting of the shell someone commits to renting for ten years or whatever.

Ronaldinho · 28-11-2019 10:04pm

Aranza Massive Scapula wrote: »

Why is it greed? The point of running a business is to make as much money as possible. Did you refuse the last pay rise your employer offered you because you didn’t want to be greedy?

Housing is a special case though. We all need to live somewhere. It's not something any of us can really do without - although obviously some do....

DubCount · 28-11-2019 10:19pm

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Housing is a special case though. We all need to live somewhere. It's not something any of us can really do without - although obviously some do....

Food is also a special case - we all need to eat. Lets go to Tesco and tell them to stop making money out of our basic right to eat.

If you genuinely want to reduce rents, provide quickie evictions for any tenant with 3 months arears, or proof of antisocial behaviour.

Curious1002 · 28-11-2019 10:20pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'd be delighted to offer a discount on the rent for a German style letting of the shell someone commits to renting for ten years or whatever.

we have a Deal!

Ronaldinho · 28-11-2019 10:44pm

DubCount wrote: »

Food is also a special case - we all need to eat. Lets go to Tesco and tell them to stop making money out of our basic right to eat.

If you genuinely want to reduce rents, provide quickie evictions for any tenant with 3 months arears, or proof of antisocial behaviour.

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

28-11-2019 10:50pm

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Housing is a special case though. We all need to live somewhere. It's not something any of us can really do without - although obviously some do....

It’s not a special case, that’s far left rubbish.

A private LL is selling a service the same as any other business and if they aren’t maximising their income they aren’t running their business correctly.

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

The only reason shops don’t charge for more for their food is competition simple as that. When their is a shortage of something shops up their prices because they can.

Thargor · 28-11-2019 11:14pm

Hopefully the vote of no confidence in the housing minister wil go through and collapse the government, it might shake the cobwebs in their brains a bit, slim chance though.

DubCount · 29-11-2019 9:16am

Thargor wrote: »

Hopefully the vote of no confidence in the housing minister wil go through and collapse the government, it might shake the cobwebs in their brains a bit, slim chance though.

Unfortunately, I believe no change in Housing Minister, and no change in government, will make any difference. All our politicians, from all parties and all sides, do not have the spine to do what needs to be done because its unpopular.

You have to ask yourself, while property prices are stable/falling slightly, and while rents are increasing, why are there fewer landlords at the end of the year than the beginning, and fewer properties to rent? Why are the greedy landlords leaving when they should be making pots of money by exploiting the super profits everyone thinks they are making? The answer is, there are many easier ways to make more money with less risk.

If you want the government to get back into the direct provision of social housing, this will cost money - higher taxes for everyone (not just the rich, which some politicians will try to make you believe).

If you want to make evictions easier, this means (at least in short term) an increase in the "homeless" figures.

If you give tax breaks for landlords, you are feeding the fat cats on the backs of the poor workers etc.

29-11-2019 9:44am

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

Using your analogy, we had a feast of properties and a famine of tenants during the recession when market forces meant rents were driven downward, was that also wrong?, should rents have stayed as they were and do you consider tenants greedy by taking advantage of the situation at that time to request/demand lower rents?

It is hypocritical to demand lower rents when markets favour it, then complain about rises when the market favours it.

Edgware · 29-11-2019 10:16am

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

Maybe the Government will reveal how much tax is paid by landlords from rental income.
I'm sure it must be 35 to 45 per cent of the rent taken in.
One way to increase supply ( and therefore control rents) is to ease the tax burden.
Renting unfurnished properties is a good idea. Tenants are more likely to stay longer, they can invest in their own appliances, furniture etc. At the end of tenancy just return a clean property with no arguments abut wear and tear etc. Also have the deposit held in an escrow type account

beauf · 29-11-2019 10:39am

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

What you have is the govt stops growing cheap food and providing it to those less well off. Starts buying expensive good instead. At the same time imports loads more people who need food. Increases costs to those providing cheaper food, and decreases the cost for those companies providing the most expensive food.

After all that the one group you're not blaming is the govt.

One common issue across Europe was a similar policy of reducing the supply of govt provided housing. A couple of decades later and we have housing crisis across Europe. Probably coincidence....

beauf · 29-11-2019 10:43am

Housing crisis will not charge until there is a change in govts to one that has a different focus. The inequality in Irish society has for the first time started to get worse. The gap between poor and rich is widening and more people are less well off. The well off are fewer but richer.

Sheepdish1 · 29-11-2019 10:49am

Sussy wrote: »

When will rent prices stop going up? How can people pay €2000 for a tiny place?

It won’t stop anytime soon. There is simply not enough houses for people to buy and a lot of them even on commuter belts are now out of reach to buy for many people.

To make things worse Cuckoo funds are buying up housing being built and will charge extortionate rent rates as they are in this business to make money. A Cuckoo fund has just been sold 150 houses in Maynooth in an estate where many families would have being trying to buy.

That’s 150 more houses out of reach for families that can’t compete with this level of wealth, they paid 53 million.

That’s 150 more houses that will be put on the market are extortionate rent that desperate people will have to buy. Eoin Murphy and Leo Varadkar should resign, this is the worst housing crisis the country has ever seen and once again the wealthy are benefiting to the expense of working families

beauf · 29-11-2019 11:30am

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Well to expand on your analogy, then we have a famine in the Irish property market and a lot of opportunistic landlords are taking advantage of others' misfortune.

70% of Landlords have one property. Is you wanted to take advantage of the situation, having only one property is not the way to do it.

LL with more than 200 properties increased their numbers of properties by 10% in 2018.

29-11-2019 11:41am

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

It won’t stop anytime soon. There is simply not enough houses for people to buy and a lot of them even on commuter belts are now out of reach to buy for many people.

To make things worse Cuckoo funds are buying up housing being built and will charge extortionate rent rates as they are in this business to make money. A Cuckoo fund has just been sold 150 houses in Maynooth in an estate where many families would have being trying to buy.

That’s 150 more houses out of reach for families that can’t compete with this level of wealth, they paid 53 million.

That’s 150 more houses that will be put on the market are extortionate rent that desperate people will have to buy. Eoin Murphy and Leo Varadkar should resign, this is the worst housing crisis the country has ever seen and once again the wealthy are benefiting to the expense of working families

If your figures are correct that’s an average of 350k per house which isn’t outlandish by any means. That’s an average also so for sure there would have been houses cheaper on the estate too.

I’m not sure how you would propose to stop a person selling to the buyer that they want to sell to, we aren’t a communist country.

Sussy · 29-11-2019 12:38pm

So we just wait for the election and hope the next government will do better.

29-11-2019 12:43pm

Sussy wrote: »

So we just wait for the election and hope the next government will do better.

The government should not be interfering in business of private rentals so I hope you aren’t suggesting they should.

Ray Palmer · 29-11-2019 12:44pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

I'd be delighted to offer a discount on the rent for a German style letting of the shell someone commits to renting for ten years or whatever.

As pointed out you can't do that in Ireland due to rental standards here.

The regulations here make it more expensive to provide rentals here and build them. You can't have shared heating system , washing machines, water etc...

Properties rented in Germany,Spain, Italy, France etc... would be illegal here.

Very simply it is more expensive and higher risk to provide rental accommodation in Ireland. Rents reflect this. You want cheaper rent reduce the cost and risk to landlords. Basic economic of supply and demand

Assetbacked · 29-11-2019 1:09pm

beauf wrote: »

Housing crisis will not charge until there is a change in govts to one that has a different focus. The inequality in Irish society has for the first time started to get worse. The gap between poor and rich is widening and more people are less well off. The well off are fewer but richer.

The well off in Irish society are those who own property. For people to have extra cash in their pocket from their salary each month as a result of not having to pay so much for somewhere to live, this is better for society as the cash would be spread around different sectors rather than having one sector hoover up that cash.

We need to get to a point where it is possible to rent something really cheap for oneself, if desired, for the good of the social and emotional health of society. Then people can pay more for a better quality of place. This demands that property and land prices plummet.

beauf · 29-11-2019 1:33pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The well off in Irish society are those who own property. For people to have extra cash in their pocket from their salary each month as a result of not having to pay so much for somewhere to live, this is better for society as the cash would be spread around different sectors rather than having one sector hoover up that cash.

We need to get to a point where it is possible to rent something really cheap for oneself, if desired, for the good of the social and emotional health of society. Then people can pay more for a better quality of place. This demands that property and land prices plummet.

Really what it means is that some portion of development should always be set aside for social need and properly enforced. We aren't doing that. Also we have to control demand. You can't keep fueling a fire you are trying to put out.

Assetbacked · 29-11-2019 1:43pm

beauf wrote: »

Really what it means is that some portion of development should always be set aside for social need and properly enforced. We aren't doing that. Also we have to control demand. You can't keep fueling a fire you are trying to put out.

Absolutely, we are at full employment. It's time for the IDA to stop getting more companies to move here as we cannot handle the number of people at the current time. Public transport and housing services need to catch up on the explosion of the numbers working in Ireland the last 6 years.

Salary Negotiator · 29-11-2019 1:48pm

Aranza Massive Scapula wrote: »

If your figures are correct that’s an average of 350k per house which isn’t outlandish by any means. That’s an average also so for sure there would have been houses cheaper on the estate too.

I’m not sure how you would propose to stop a person selling to the buyer that they want to sell to, we aren’t a communist country.

And another question is could the council have built the houses cheaper? Is the answer is no then it was good business for the council.

washburn73 · 29-11-2019 1:54pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

Absolutely, we are at full employment. It's time for the IDA to stop getting more companies to move here as we cannot handle the number of people at the current time. Public transport and housing services need to catch up on the explosion of the numbers working in Ireland the last 6 years.

That is the most laughable suggestion I have ever heard.... Stop inward investment because we need infrastructure to catch up with the number of people in current employment? What do you think pays for the investment that we badly need in infrastructure (transport, telecommunications, education, health)?

Taxes from economic activity.

But your rationale is to close the door to any new activity to solve the current problem?!?!

Wow, the Poles, French and Italians would love to have you in charge of Ireland. They'd welcome the ones you turn away with open arms.

Absolute nonsense.

handlemaster · 29-11-2019 2:02pm

Sussy wrote: »

I think is greed. Also short term contracts and unfurnished properties on the rise on daft. Is absolutely out of control.

Greed ? On what basis ? Unfurnished properties is the nlrm ouside of ireland. Llts of people on thjs forum wishing to rent unfurnised. Most of the laws are geared towards the tenants. Whats the issue ?

The Student · 29-11-2019 2:23pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

The well off in Irish society are those who own property. For people to have extra cash in their pocket from their salary each month as a result of not having to pay so much for somewhere to live, this is better for society as the cash would be spread around different sectors rather than having one sector hoover up that cash.

We need to get to a point where it is possible to rent something really cheap for oneself, if desired, for the good of the social and emotional health of society. Then people can pay more for a better quality of place. This demands that property and land prices plummet.

People who own property are not well off, they have scarificed and are paying or have paid for the property. It never ceases to amaze me that people who have made life choices should somehow be held responsible for those who made different life choices that did not work out for them.

At what point should people actually have to live with their choices and accept the consequences of their choices.

Why is it when something goes wrong its societies issue rather than the individuals.

We did have low cost places to rent in the form of bedsits, the govt decided to close them at a time when we did not have any replacements. We know have a situation where we all went high standards of accommodation but don't want to pay for it.

We have to decide what we need not want, we need accommodation, we want accommodation that meets very high standards. If we want the high standards then someone has to pay for it.

Assetbacked · 29-11-2019 2:46pm

The Student wrote: »

People who own property are not well off, they have scarificed and are paying or have paid for the property. It never ceases to amaze me that people who have made life choices should somehow be held responsible for those who made different life choices that did not work out for them.

At what point should people actually have to live with their choices and accept the consequences of their choices.

Why is it when something goes wrong its societies issue rather than the individuals.

We did have low cost places to rent in the form of bedsits, the govt decided to close them at a time when we did not have any replacements. We know have a situation where we all went high standards of accommodation but don't want to pay for it.

We have to decide what we need not want, we need accommodation, we want accommodation that meets very high standards. If we want the high standards then someone has to pay for it.

People who own property are the well off. I'm not begrudging, just stating a fact.

Ronaldinho · 29-11-2019 3:26pm

washburn73 wrote: »

That is the most laughable suggestion I have ever heard.... Stop inward investment because we need infrastructure to catch up with the number of people in current employment? What do you think pays for the investment that we badly need in infrastructure (transport, telecommunications, education, health)?

Taxes from economic activity.

But your rationale is to close the door to any new activity to solve the current problem?!?!

Wow, the Poles, French and Italians would love to have you in charge of Ireland. They'd welcome the ones you turn away with open arms.

Absolute nonsense.

Assetbacked is dead right. Dublin is going through massive growing pains at the moment thanks to the Govt's pro-business agenda. Over the last 5 years, for every 12 jobs created only one home has been built.

Going for 5%+ yoy economic growth and ***k the consequences is not a good policy.

beauf · 29-11-2019 3:37pm

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

And another question is could the council have built the houses cheaper? Is the answer is no then it was good business for the council.

The cost of housing isn't simply build costs.

Isn't most social provision run at a loss?

29-11-2019 4:36pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

People who own property are the well off. I'm not begrudging, just stating a fact.

The vast majority of people who own property are more in debt then those who don’t, a mortgage is a debt and has to be repaid, usually with the proceeds from rental income on the property. The vast majority of LLs are also single rental property owners, many of whom have put their savings into it, and are relying on gains to make life easier as they plan for retirement. A considerable number have properties bought for more than they are now worth, even though prices have risen, so it’s a bit disingenuous to categorise all LLs as “well off”.

Ray Palmer · 29-11-2019 5:06pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

People who own property are the well off. I'm not begrudging, just stating a fact.

One person can own 2 houses worth the same as one other person's house. They aren't well off as a result. It isn't a fact they are well off it is your opinion.

A landlord provides a service and you pay for it.

Salary Negotiator · 29-11-2019 5:09pm

beauf wrote: »

The cost of housing isn't simply build costs.

Isn't most social provision run at a loss?

No it’s not, but in terms of acquisition it’s either build or buy. The on going costs, I guess, would be the same regardless of how the property was acquired.

The Student · 29-11-2019 5:09pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

People who own property are the well off. I'm not begrudging, just stating a fact.

So if you are in negative equity are you well off?

The_Fitz · 29-11-2019 5:10pm

Could anything be taken from the Berlin rent freeze and capping rent at a certain amount per square meter?*

*I have no idea how this would work in practice.

beauf · 29-11-2019 6:34pm

The_Fitz wrote: »

Could anything be taken from the Berlin rent freeze and capping rent at a certain amount per square meter?*

*I have no idea how this would work in practice.

Nothing Berlin has done has worked. So based on that probably not.

The stupid part is every one else copying what they did and expecting a different result.

In 2015, a rent control mechanism was introduced across Germany. The research cites evidence showing that between 2015 and 2017 rents in central Berlin increased by almost 10%. Before the introduction of the control they had been rising by just 1% to 2% each year.

https://www.propertywire.com/news/uk/rent-controls-hurt-tenants-by-drying-up-the-supply-of-homes-to-rent/

Berlin’s plan to control surging housing costs is diverting investment from the squeezed market even before a rent freeze comes into force, according to the city’s largest residential landlord....

....Deutsche Wohnen has postponed construction projects in Berlin and will instead focus on other cities. The company said earlier this month that its inability to raise rents significantly, combined with potential mandated rent reductions, presents a risk to cash flow of as much as 330 million euros ($363 million) over five years.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/berlin-biggest-landlord-warning-over-090000487.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAD1j9ytbXpRBZV1sAh24wnIuoVOticoFLn2EOOIb7kLoxu4MrGOt-AW4DRxYOwmkVJd54sJ-ImvZQGTXpcpegVpB3IP2kAh7TSLdP-n6n3p5amLkmGu74i51jezEVo1NBpuI1HM70e8zXeLLB5BKw6OA1xch21xIpgD4cy9qvdu5

I don't think anyone will be losing sleep abuot their profits. The only concern is how it effects supply.

At this point though its pointless to suggest anything. No one is listening.

29-11-2019 7:09pm

The_Fitz wrote: »

Could anything be taken from the Berlin rent freeze and capping rent at a certain amount per square meter?*

*I have no idea how this would work in practice.

This came up on another thread, rent freeze does not apply to property built in the last five years. I was in Berlin recently and I was surprised at the number of derelict buildings in University area on way to airport, taxi told me construction had slowed due to new legislation introducing rent freeze.

handlemaster · 29-11-2019 7:17pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

Absolutely, we are at full employment. It's time for the IDA to stop getting more companies to move here as we cannot handle the number of people at the current time. Public transport and housing services need to catch up on the explosion of the numbers working in Ireland the last 6 years.

This is absolute nonsensical drival.

Field east · 29-11-2019 7:30pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It should be noted DAFT supplies data on asking rents, the actual RTB figures for current rents are lower. The figures bandied about in the media are DAFT's figures which are skewed by new entrants to the market.

Another aspect that is never captured is the number of tenants involved re what is advertised for renting. The RTB have all the information to present this figure. All registered accommodation have to give the number of tenants and the weekly/monthly rent. I OFTEN WONDER why it does not produce this figure.
This figure will tell us what the rent per month per occupant is. The Daft figs only give the asking price for a house/flat/ apt to rent but we have no idea the number of occupants that each can accommodate.

Another possibility that is not captured is the following point.
During the Celtic Tiger era we had so much money paying for accommodation was not a problem and the typical tenant could afford to rent ,for example, a two to three bedroom house and him/herself or / and wife / partner would be the sole occupants even though the accommodation could comfortably house another two to three people - depending.
But during the austerity period - as far as expensive accommodation/ reduction in buying power is concerned- I would have expected that some tenants would have been very happy to shack up/ share their accommodation to keep the rent cost per head down

DubCount · 30-11-2019 1:46pm

IMHO rent controls/rent freezes just do not work.

The first thing to suffer is quality - why should a LL invest in painting, decorating, new furniture, fixing things or just about anything else, when he/she can achieve the same rent with or without the work being done?

In other markets, it also tends to make cash top ups popular, as competing prospective tenants seek to secure a property by offering such top ups.

It then makes any "new" rental properties more expensive, because artificially keeping the price of other properties low means a natural undersupply which is inflationary on whatever new stock becomes available.

Being a LL is an investment choice. Choice is the key word - Irish property is not the only investment in the world. You need to create a situation where investors will choose Irish property as an investment, which is not happening right now. Artificially trying to keep prices down by rent control will simply not work.

Assetbacked · 04-12-2019 12:31am

handlemaster wrote: »

This is absolute nonsensical drival.

We need to control immigration to Dublin. More people are arriving each week to work than there are beds coming available. We are at full employment and have made no progress on housebuilding for many years so it would not be a bad thing to either cut funding to the Ida or else to get them to stop promoting Dublin.

Worst city in the world for housing. The world! That is astonishing. It's not even like the quality of places to live is exceptionally high. Desperate measures are needed.

handlemaster · 04-12-2019 8:37am

Assetbacked wrote: »

We need to control immigration to Dublin. More people are arriving each week to work than there are beds coming available. We are at full employment and have made no progress on housebuilding

for many years so it would not be a bad thing to either cut funding to the Ida or else to get them to stop promoting Dublin.

Worst city in the world for housing. The world! That is astonishing. It's not even like the quality of places to live is exceptionally high. Desperate measures are needed.

This is such a poor opinion. I really dont know what to reply

Rent

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