Now ye're talking - to a US police officer Part II

What's your opinion of Jeremy Dewitte? Do you think he is being harassed or is his behavior unlawful? Are there a lot of people who impersonate police officers in the US?

I had to look this guy up, so bear with. All I know is from the open-source online news. From what I can tell this guy is edging very close to the line with his escort service. To the untrained eye, people think “cop” with his uniforms, etc. Given the way he acts, repeatedly, makes me wonder is there some sort of complex there, but not for me to know. But no, he’s not been harassed IMHO. If he modified his behavior, followed the spirit not just the letter of the law, then he’d be just another security company.

Cop impersonators do show up occasionally, usually some pleb will flash a badge or try to stop someone with a blue light. We had one here a while back stopping women trying to get their information. Thankfully he was caught a week later.

Did you ever have to assist with a delivery of an unexpected baby?

Yes, I’ve delivered two babies. It’s a bit messy, and thankfully the paramedics showed up promptly as it is more their expertise. And no, no one named the baby after me.

What are the rules around tattoos and hair styles for an officer? Could you get a tattoo that could be seen as someway political; just say it was covered at work but the public can see it during your non-working hours and some members of public might find it offensive.

Hmmmm, it depends by agency, so I’ll tell you what I know. Our rules are nothing visible above the shirt collar, on the hands with the exception of an ink marriage band/ring. Any tattoos deemed offensive/inappropriate by the dept. must be covered while on duty. If you had obviously offensive/racist tattoo, even coved at work, that would be looked at closely and could be grounds for dismissal under the policy of extremist association. It’s a very sticky wicket, and I’m not aware of it being an issue in my agency, but I’m sure it comes up. That brings you into a minefield of free speech vs. hate speech. Otherwise, grooming standards are generally conservative, men’s hair can’t touch the collar, women’s hair must be worn in a bun/plait or in a “manner not to cause a safety hazard or unprofessional appearance”. Last year our agency allowed beards, has to be a full beard (no goatees, van Gogh’s, or whatever), no more than one quarter inch neatly groomed. Thats popular with some, me, I prefer clean shaven, personal choice.

A bonus round while herself is out:

here is what a the general arrest scenario looks like: Lets say it's an assault.

We arrived, find the victim, make sure they are safe, get a description of the perp. We'll say he's close by, I find him, he matches the description and has bloody knuckles. That's enough for an arrest. He's cuffed, frisked and put in the back of my car (our cars have prisoner cages, we don't use a paddy wagon). My partner will have the paramedics check the victim's injuries & we'll offer same to the perp if he has any complaint of pain/injury. Lets say victim needs stiches. He goes with EMS after we get basic information, my partner will go to the ER to get a quick statement form him. I'll ID the perp, usually a drivers, license, and off we go to jail. We normally don't read the Miranda warning unlike in the movies. The Miranda is only for post arrest questioning. I don't need to ask questions, I have positive ID from my vic, perp has bloody knuckles, it's pretty self evident what happened.

Arrive at jail, I strip all my weapons off into a lock box. Walk perp in, he'll be searched again by the jailers, belongings inventoried, issued jail scrubs if needs be. He's photographed, fingerprinted and escorted to a cell. I complete a booking sheet, charge sheet, arrest affidavit articulating I had PC to make the arrest. Here is where I have to write a good affidavit as the judge will base their bond on what I say. If it's more serious injuries, I'll describe that as best I can to help the judge understand what happened so he/she can set an appropriate bail bond. I leave once the arrest review SGT is happy with my paperwork, then I'll do my own incident report. My partner will email me pictures of the vic's, injuries & their statement, all gets added to the report. Email report etc to my SGT for approval, she's happy with it. It gets transferred in the system so the detectives can be assigned the case. Any physical evidence I have, say I seized a club or knife from the perp, I bag & tag that for evidence and drop that off at our secure evidence lockers.

This process can take ages. If the jail is rocking on a weekend night, I'll have to wait there until the jailers are ready. perp is cuffed to a bench, I'll try and get a start on my report. I've waited up to two hours to process a prisoner. Painful.

Meanwhile, the perp will cool their heels until they are magistrated. We have "jail call" judges at 0700 and 1900 daily. They'll nug through the prisoners decide on bail terms, bonds, or pre-trail detention. If they bond out (post money to assure they'll show up in court), they are released. If not, they are transferred to a longer term holding facility. They get their call, some call families, some attorneys, whatever. Most wont get a lawyer until they've been released.

It's time consuming, detail oriented paperwork, makes for poor TV & movies, but it's a large part of what we do.

More tomorrow after work, sometime this year, our network cyber security team blocked foreign websites from our network.....sigh...

I watched a documentary on a police department in the US. Their funding comes from the town and that meant they had to go around asking residents to pay money towards having policing. B in the end enough wasn't raised and two officers were let go.

Is that the way funding works there or just some places? It just seemed strange that being a police officer meant as much job security as working in a bar, and no incentive to try to progress through an actual professional career.

Too a point, yes. LE in the US is funded by the entity the agency serves. IE Feds are paid for by the US Govt, State agencies by the respective state, County by their county and city by the city that agency serves. In the US, there are local, state & federal taxes to pay for all this as appropriate. Many cities & counties services be it police, fire, EMS, roads, parks, schools, etc. raise taxes typically by property tax, sales tax (think VAT) and to a very lesser extent by a local income tax. When the economy goes down, revenue goes down and cities have to make hard choices, which can include layoffs. Bigger cities are not immune from this. Detroit had a major budget meltdown a few years back and they laid off cops, fire, EMS, etc. Fire stations were shuttered, schools closed. It looked pretty rough but it is the reality of local control in the US. Netflix had a good documentary about the Flint, MI PD and their struggles in a very tight budget.

As for officers going door to door, perhaps they were doing that off duty through their union or other lobbying. It would be illegal (at least here in TX) to be doing that on the job. Another similar matter, many of the states have enacted laws where on $10 (in TX) of a traffic ticket goes to the police, rest goes into a state fund. It’s to stop “policing for profit”.

if arrested, you are separated from your family (as in you are put in custody/lock up). should the same apply to illegals that are arrested?

Touchy subject, some clarification. When arrested by the police, as I described in an earlier post, the arrestees are processed. It would be unusual for us to arrest a whole family, but not impossible. In my jurisdiction, the adults go to jail, juveniles go to a separate juvenile detention facility. Anyone under 12 would be turned over to the state child protection agency if we can’t find a responsible relative. These kids would be put in a very short-term foster home until a responsible adult can be found and this is very much a last resort. We separate the juveniles as the main jail has no facilities for kids and you don’t want children in an adult jail.

At the border, the illegals are “detained”, which is a different status as the laws are different for immigration violations. They can be subsequently charged with unlawful entry to the US, but initially it’s a detention. I’ve visited some of the border facilities, they are even more depressing than our central booking intake on a Saturday night and not a fun or happy place for anyone, let alone a family. Initially males & females are separated, kids will stay with the mother generally. After that it can get complex. If one of the parents is wanted say, or has other charges, they’ll be diverted to another part of the system to be formally charged, etc. These are generally offenders wanted in the US, who will go into the criminal system, no place for children.

If a family is detained at or near the border, and other than the crossing there is no other factors, I’d generally be OK with keeping them together as much as possible. There is a grinding practicality to it unfortunately, Border Patrol just doesn’t have the room to give every family their own space so it gets messy. I certainly don’t agree with separating kids 100’s of miles from one of the parents, that serves no purpose in my mind and is the result of a xenophobic policy from the previous administration. The border debate is a story for another time in of itself.


what % of shootings do you think are unjustified, and of that portion, how many go unpunished?

I really don’t have stats on that. LE in the US is a fractured combination of city, county, state, tribal and federal agencies and there is no central clearing house of LE data on this. Near me there is a small town, their PD is 9 officers, 2 of whom are part time. If they have a shooting, they are under no obligation to have anyone outside their own town get involved. They could investigate it themselves and draw their own conclusions if they chose to do so. I only use this hypothetical as an illustration of how hard it is do speak to this nationally. There is no state or national reporting requirement for police involved shootings, so it’s hard to draw a conclusion.

So, to your question, its hard to say. All shootings are investigated, usually goes to a grand jury, and the more respectable agencies will have an outside entity conduct the investigation to provide impartiality. Historically juries give cops great deference in the use of deadly force, and even some questionable shootings have resulted in the officer not being charged or sanctioned. This can be contentious to say the least, families & the public become frustrated by what is perceived as a one-sided system. Remember, what seems unreasonable to the public could be a very justified use of deadly force in the given situation and those officers have maybe seconds to make that decision.

Is there a way around joining the NYPD without US citizenship?

Well looking at their website, it doesn’t look so. Many states require police officers to be US citizens, and it’s not something which can be waived.

Gang,

Long day today, I'll answer more tomorrow evening (my time zone of course), but keep the questions coming.

Be safe out there,

So, here is a generic "how it goes" for a domestic assault.

Call comes in, assault in progress. It's a Code 3 response (lights & sirens), EMS will be concurrently sent, they will stage a few blocks away until we secure the scene. Arrive same time as another unit, make entry. Female victim crying on couch, perp ranting & screaming. Get her outside, we start calming him down, he's not buying it, waving a bottle around. He gets tazed, goes down, we pile on, get the cuffs on, drag him outside to the car. Partner keeps an eye on him tries to get information from him. I clear the rest of the hosue to make sure we're safe, bring vic. back inside & radio EMS to attend. Start getting her info, she has some cuts & bruises to the face & neck.

Beer bottle is seized as evidence (its a weapon) as are the expended tazer cartridges. They are bagged up & sealed.

Paramedics evaluate her, she'll need stiches, so she elects to go with them. Not life & death, so I have time to grab a few pictures of her & her injuries. EMS & vic. leave. Back outside to perp. he's calmed down. He is also evaluated by EMS, and refused transport. He's calmed down enough to talk, we get his details, take pictues of him , no injuries, but he does have a few scrapes on his hands, possibly form striking her. Those are photographed. As he's calm, we do all this in front of the car so it's on video.

We load him up & off we go to jail. Other unit goes to the hospital to interview vic. He'll get a few more pics, get a written statement from her, and (usually) get her to sign off on filing an Emergency Protective Order on him where he has to stay away from her for five days.

I drive to jail, he's babbling on in the car not aware he's being recorded the whole way. I don't say much, just 'hmmm" sort of thing. Book him into jail, if he's calm, he'll be processed in and put in a cell. If he gets silly, he'll be restrained, and put in a restraint chair & cell.

I head back out to my district, then, when I get a bit of time. I'll meet my district partner, get the paperwork from the vic. I start writing my report, fill out about five different forms relating to domestic violence. Fill out a use of force report for the tazer, meet my SGT to get some extra cartridges. I'll ring our Victim Services who will sent a rep. to the hospital to meet with her and ensure she is OK, help her with basic needs. maybe give her a lift home, whatever. I'll also ring the on call judge to talk him/her through my Probable Cause Affadavit (the basis for the arrest & charge), and hope he/she will agree with me and set a higher bail with conditions to protect the vic. I can only suggest this, but judges do what judges do.

Report complete, email it to SGT for approval, all good, it's entered in the database. Pictures are dropped in the shared drive. Video and audio for the whole call are tagged in the system and downloaded at the station via hotspot. I put the evidence in the evidence locker. That's more or less it from the patrol POV.

What happens next:

Within 48 hours, the case is assigned to a domestic violence detective. He/she will review my report, pictures, etc. They'll make contact with the victim, do some forms to get her medical records from the EMS & the ER. Victim Services will follow up with her every couple of days, see if she needs counselling, whatever. The detective will arrange for an interview at the station, and maybe write some subpoenas for phone records, texts, emails, social media. Anything that shows threats or the likes from the perp. it usually takes six months to get some of this stuff back as this is considered non-urgent. banks are pretty good with records, usually only takes about 60 day, but the social media companies are just awful. Detective will meet with an Asst DA (ADA), they'll go over the case & the ADA will decide if it's a prosecutable case or not. If we still have a willing victim (by now it's nearly a year since the event), it'll go to court.

So, its not quiet like in the movies (shock, no, really?), its detail oriented, and can be frustrating especially for the victims. And there ya have it. I'll see if I can dig up a redacted report next week and give you a flavour of what a report looks like.

Wash those hands, wear those masks & stay home folks!!!

Thanks for doing this. I’m not sure what state you’re based in but if it’s one where marijuana is decriminalized/legalized, is this something you agree with?

I’m in Texas, in a large metro area. MJ is still illegal in TX, our past few legislative sessions at the state level trend conservative. There is an ever-growing movement to legalize it like in other states, but we’re not there yet. I’m not opposed to it really as such because I’m a realist. If its legal, it generates business and tax revenue (Colorado makes millions in state tax (VAT essentially) every year. And it takes money from the drug cartels. Why buy it from some shady guy on a corner & run the risk of being robbed, arrested, etc., when you can pop into a shop and get your fix? There still isn’t a legal standard for “MJ intoxication” as regards driving when compared to alcohol, so that needs work. None of the breath test devices the Gardai use have survived legal scrutiny here, the gold standard is the blood test.

Our new DA, who like most DA’s is an elected official, ran on a platform of progressive issues such as that. So, our current guidance is to only write tickets for small MJ procession as opposed to jailing people. Fine by me, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze in my mind of locking someone up just for a joint. I’ve better things to so with my time.

Do you arrest people for doing it in public?


I have, and like most things it's situation dependent. Remember, we have discretion but to a point. I can't just ignore illegality either. I prefer to write a ticket, or even just crush the joint into the ground and tell them to go home. However, everything I do is recorded, so I have to be able to justify what I do or don't do because I am accountable for my actions. As I mentioned above, we can write tickets now, but it's still the same offense with the same potential punishments, the law hasn't changed, we just ticket you as opposed to booking you into jail.

What's your view on the war against drugs? How prevalent are narcotics in your area?

The famed “War of Drugs” was a misguided attempt to arrest our way out of a social problem. And it has been an epic failure. Sure, we have locked up more people per capita than any other country in the world, and yet, drug crime & deaths shows no sign of abatement. It was a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem. If we’d spent half that money on education, substance abuse education & prevention, we’d be years ahead of where we are now. But, no one ever runs for office saying “vote for me, it’ll be better in 10 years once we hire more social workers & counsellors”. Lot easier to get attention by saying “vote for me, I’m tough on crime”. You get my point I’m sure.

From a LE point of view, instead of investing War on Drug money in SWAT teams and high-speed task forces, we should have invested in intelligence gathering, community policing and engagement. Give us the information (intelligence) to target the big dealers and actually make a difference.

I think you indicated that you are in Texas. Given that a large part of Texas covers the Mexican border is drug smuggling something that comes up?

Yes, in the Lone Star State indeed. We have several major highways (motorways) running through our patch, so we do catch the occasional dope shipment. The closer you get to the border, the more of that you find as it is an industry in of itself. We have officers on secondment to some of the federal task forces, so they handle that working with the State police & the Feds. I spent some time on the TX-Mexico border working with the Border Patrol & Customs. The scale of this problem beggar’s belief. The cartels have resources like Amazon or Apple or some small countries. In their mind, the cops are just like shrinkage in retail, cost of doing business. I don’t have an answer, I’m ok with secure borders, every county has a right to secure their borders. And I’m more for prevention & recovery programs than large scale incarceration.

What's the need for the sobriety test over just breathalyzing and then blood test at the station?

DUI’s are a very well-worn path in the court system. It has been litigated to death over the years as it is such a common offense. There are whole firms of defense attorneys who do nothing but DUI cases. In my patch, even if you get it kicked out of court, it’s going to cost you neatly $10k in fees & court costs. Lawyers have picked apart every single part of the process, so the process is designed to be as watertight as possible. I had one case where the defense attorney tried to argue the alcohol swab the nurse used to sterilize the site for the blood draw could have tainted the sample, therefore the case had no merit. The judge overruled it, but the jury heard it. Despite that, we got a conviction. This is the sort of thing we’re up against, painful. But now, the medics use a alcohol free wipe just in case…..

The initial traffic violation gives me the PC for the stop. You want a good, clear legal violation on camera. Can’t argue that illegality. Next step is me articulating the odor of alcohol, bloodshot eyes, slurred speech, etc. Those give me the PC to get you out of the car and take the test. The sobriety test gives me the PC to arrest you for DUI. The blood test & station breathalyzer are my “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” you are drunk.
The sobriety test is a science based; court tested means of determining a degree of intoxication in the field. It requires no special equipment (other than a week-long training course) and has stood the test of time and court scrutiny. Here, for reasons not entirely clear to me, the portable breathalyzers like the Gardai & UK cops use have not stood up to the scrutiny of a court challenge. I’m sure those were kicked out in a case or two, and that was the end of that.

Did ye ever have a serial killer/rapist in your jurisdiction?

Yes, had both. It’s unnerving for the public & people get on edge. We get more calls for suspicious persons, suspicious cars, prowlers’ sort of thing. Day to day it doesn’t affect us on patrol as such other than the call volume rises. Depending on the situation, we may get extra patrol officers on the street. It reassures the public to see the cars out there. Honestly, the majority of these cases fall on the detectives doing the investigation. The public & policy makers get impatient, their opinions shaped by the TV/movies, expect we get answers back in hours as opposed to the reality of weeks & months. DNA for example, a “rush” DNA sample still might take 2-3 months to come back from the lab. Likewise, with phones, social media companies, etc. Getting that stuff back takes ages. Frustrating. Detectives will get pulled off other cases to help with this, but their workload still keeps piling up. It’s not like the rest of the criminal world takes a holiday. Public pressure can shake loose extra OT for the investigators, but there are still only so many hours in a day. Good news is we did bring the last few to justice, although we do have a triple murder from the mid 1980’s which remains unsolved.

Do you plan on coming home or are you there for good?

Really don’t know. Wife & I talk a lot about retirement as it is only a few years away. As much as I miss Ireland, I’ve been over here a long time & sadly, Ireland is pricing itself out of my market.

Does the fact you're not American affect how people deal with you as a cop? I've wondered before how foreign police officers (be it Gardaí or whatever) would be treated. My guess is most wouldn't care one way or the other, but the fringe elements would use it as an excuse to kick off?

Not really, my accent is a bit diluted at this point so it’s rarely noticed. Those who want to kick off were probably going to do it anyhow, regardless of the cop’s accent. Lately the fringe elements are trending towards white nationalists, and they are only interested in their very weird interpretation of the law, not so much our accents. I did meet a fellow Mick in Washington DC who is a cop up there, and he owns an Irish pub there too!

Secondly, with race relations and America first ramping up in the last few years, does your Irishness get held against you? Or is the fact you're White (I assume, sorry if I'm making a leap) outweigh any foreignness?

Yes, I’m white and sunburn easily, but at least I’m not a ginger 😊 and no the Irish thing really doesn’t come up. The race relations thing is a complex subject for sure, I spoke to this on the previous AMA if interested. The White nationalists/MAGA types tend to be vocal about supporting the police, but then only when it suits them as evidenced by the US Capitol riots. For a group that claims to support LE and cops, they had a remarkable funny way of displaying it.

Cops tend to bear the brunt of unpopular laws & policies; you saw this in Ireland with the water protests. I mean its not like the Gardai made those laws about water meters, but they sure took it on the chin about it. Same over here, yes, we have some work to do as a society, and as a subset of that in LE, on race relations, and I vehemently support your right for lawful, peaceful protests, even if you are protesting the police themselves, just don’t start throwing stones & petrol bombs. It won’t end well for either side.

I'm sure this will be of interest...a broad look at a homicide call.

We'll say the calls comes in as a shooting, so priority response. We'll get there, enter the scene, watching for the perp & to provide assistance to the victim. For this example, it'll be a suburban house, shooter has scarpered. Victim is dead, we'll clear the house, get anyone there out hands up, they may get cuffed until we sort this out. Backup will sort through who they are.

Once its safe, we'll call EMS in, they will do the field pronouncement, and leave. At this point, we know it's a crime scene, so we'll back, post an officer at the door and no one else goes in. Outside we'll sort out witnesses, get a description of the perp, get that out over the radio and start figuring out what happened. our SGT will most likely be here by now, he'll notify the on call detective and get them moving our way along with the Crime Scene Team (CST) and the Medical Examiners Office (ME). We're getting witness statements, protecting any evidence we may see outside, shell casings, vehicles, security cameras, etc.

The primary officer will start working up a search warrant for the house & get that to the duty judge. CID, CST & ME are here by now, probably about 90 minutes later depending on where we are & time of day. We'll do a briefing with all them on what we know, CID takes over. Once we have the warrant (we have a 24 hour on call judge), CID and CST will do a walk through of the house, just two of them. CST will usually video this and of course they are all suited up in bunny suits. The detective will coordinate with CST for what they want photographed, recorded and so on. Any evidence will be protected & tagged. Once all that's secure, picked up & bagged by the CST techs, they will focus on the body, pictures, etc. They'll take measurements, draw sketches until CID is satisficed. At that point, the ME will be allowed in, they take some basic evidence on the body, temperature, location of obvious wounds, etc. They'll use the CST for any additional pictures, evidence required etc. Once CID & the ME are happy, then the body will be removed for autopsy.

At this point, usually a few hours in, we'll all confer again, answer any CID questions and hand any evidence over to the CST. If, for whatever reason, CID wants to maintain the scene for further investigation, we'll seal it up and keep a officer there to secure it. Even with a warrant, we usually can't go past 72 hours without a judge signing off.

At that point, we'll write our reports, upload all our pictures, send everything in and get on with our shift. The investigation then reverts to CID for their part of it. These calls take hours and get tedious & hot but part of the job.

Just found this thread, off to start reading the rest, but how do you deal with firearms at a crime scene regarding making them safe or determining they are safe before bagging them as evidence, without contaminating them? is there anything specific to do? or just latex gloves and make safe after an initial photo and recording of layout?

Welcome aboard as they say in the Navy. Enjoy the thread and don’t be afraid to ask more questions. Guns on a scene are photographed & documented in place, then wearing latex gloves, they will be made safe, i.e., unloaded & chamber cleared. We can then run the serial number on scene and see if it’s in the stolen firearms database. We’ll run a red zip tie through the chamber, to keep it safe, then it’s boxed up and off to the lab. This is all accomplished wearing latex gloves with a little manipulation as possible. At the lab they will try and print it, although pistols are notoriously difficult to get prints off. Depending on the needs of the detective, they will do whatever ballistics are needed and some other testing. It’s kept as evidence until after the trail then. If it was stolen and we can find the owner, if they want it back, we’ll return it to them. If not or we can’t find an owner, it’s destroyed, we don’t auction off seized guns nor do we keep them for dept. use. Too much liability.


How would this be viewed in your own department? I'm trying to imagine a member of the Gardaí wearing a party badge on their uniform and can't, I don't see how this can be allowed and it's mad to me that another officer
didn't say/do anything here.

Especially after all that happened in Washington.
Epic fail FFS!! I’m sure this has already gone to IA or whatever they have in NYPD. And the idiot wearing it deserves whatever they get. That’s just dumb. In my dept, it would get a sanction, probably not termination, but you’d get a black mark in the file, which means you are ineligible for promotion or special assignments for a year, and probably time off. And deservedly so. We all have our personal opinions on everything, but once at work, we have to be neutral on anything outside our job.
As a related matter, here is a great example of where some of the police unions are failing to see the larger picture. This officer is certainly entitled to a robust defense in whatever HR process they have, and in my mind, other than ensuring the NYPD followed all the HR rules, what is there to defend? It’s plainly a policy violation (without knowing their SOPs), end of. But some unions have an embedded “us vs. them” mentality and dig their heels in on everything in the name of defending their members. (see my earlier posts about political endorsements). In the long term, this leads to states passing more and more restrictions on union activities, so long term we’ll lose (I’m a union member BTW). FOP come across as pretty much against everything, I think if a dept. gave their members gold watches, the FOP would be complaining they wanted Apple watches and its another example of how the dept. is screwing its members. Being reasonable gets you further in the long-term IMHO, but we are where we are.