John kerr 1855 where is he?

owenc · 08-08-2011 7:18pm #1

Hi my grandmother asked me to do her mothers family so i'm trying i've got back to her gg grandmother and i know her ggg grandfather but i cannot find anything about him. I don't know his religion either so it could be anything, they were catholic but they owned alot of land so he may have converted. According to the census he was born in 1855 and hes from tyrone, but i don't know anything about tyrone so i'm struggling. Could somebody help me with this?

She mentioned this place clogher but idk where that is and i can't find any kerrs there.

pinkypinky · 08-08-2011 8:32pm

Owen,

As usual, go back to the first principles. Have you got his marriage cert? Or him as a father on birth certs? His birth will be pre-civil certs in Ireland but the rest should be available.

There's a Clogherhead in Co. Louth but it's pretty far from Tyrone.

PP.

owenc · 08-08-2011 8:39pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Owen,

As usual, go back to the first principles. Have you got his marriage cert? Or him as a father on birth certs? His birth will be pre-civil certs in Ireland but the rest should be available.

There's a Clogherhead in Co. Louth but it's pretty far from Tyrone.

PP.

Nope all i have is the census which says that hes from tyrone and that he was born in 1855 but i cannot find anything for 1855. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/1539075/ I know his wife is mellon but i can't find any reference to marriage. My grandmother keeps mentioning clogher but i doubt there from there now.

lottpaul · 08-08-2011 8:50pm

Clogher is a small village in County Tyrone, near the Fermanagh border.

pinkypinky · 08-08-2011 9:47pm

That seems a pretty big age difference between the parents and the eldest child - they would have been 31 when she was born. I'd suspect there's earlier children not living with them. Why don't you start with getting Rose Kerr's birth cert - should be easy enough to find in Derry in 1895-ish to confirm the parents names?

owenc · 08-08-2011 10:32pm

No that's definitely her father my grandmother mentioned him.. We are just trying to see were he was born and his parents

pinkypinky · 09-08-2011 9:25am

Yes, but if you can't find a marriage, you have to take it down a generation to go back up. You may have the mother's maiden name incorrect, for example.

Also, I presume you've gone through every John Kerr and Catherine Mellon marriage for the whole of Tyrone/Derry and surrounds? Since the oldest kid was born in Derry, I would include there.

owenc · 09-08-2011 1:38pm

I have just looked and I cannot find anything this is a struggle I can't even find her birth.

shanew · 09-08-2011 1:58pm

as pinkypinky mentioned, I'd suggest starting with the basic clues to check if they are correct, and the one to start with Catherine's maiden surname with a birth cert for one of the children. The best match on the index is for the youngest child Neal age 2 on the 1901 return, and there's a good match for his birth on the index in the correct registration district for Ballyore townland :

name: Neal Columbia Kerr
registration district: Londonderry
event type: Birth
quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1898
volume : 2 / page : 155

have you found the family on the 1911 census ?

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:02pm

shanew wrote: »

as pinkypinky mentioned, I'd suggest starting with the basic clues to check if they are correct, and the one to start with Catherine's maiden surname with a birth cert for one of the children. The best match on the index is for the youngest child Neal age 2 on the 1901 return, and there's a good match for his birth on the index in the correct registration district for Ballyore townland :

name: Neal Columbia Kerr
registration district: Londonderry
event type: Birth
quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1898
volume : 2 / page : 155

have you found the family on the 1911 census ?

Shane

Ya i did her it is: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/605273/

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:04pm

Oh i found her birth.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/MFBK-6VK/p1

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:13pm

the 1911 census states John and Catherine are married about 30 years - so c1881, and assuming this is reasonable accurate and the couple married in county Derry or Tyrone then these are the registration districts to check for marriages :

Tyrone

Armagh *
Castlederg
Clogher *
Cookstown
Dungannon
Enniskillen *
Gortin
Irvinstown *
Omagh
Strabane *

Derry

Ballymoney *
Coleraine *
Magherfelt
Newtonlimavady
Londonderry

(the districts with *, cover areas in more than one county)

There are about 7 John Kerr marriages in these districts between 1879-1883

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:17pm

shanew wrote: »

the 1911 census states John and Catherine are married about 30 years - so c1881, and assuming this is reasonable accurate and the couple married in county Derry or Tyrone then these are the registration districts to check for marriages :

Tyrone
Armagh *
Castlederg
Clogher *
Cookstown
Dungannon
Enniskillen *
Gortin
Irvinstown *
Omagh
Strabane *

Derry
Ballymoney *
Coleraine *
Magherfelt
Newtonlimavady
Londonderry
(the districts with *, cover areas in more than one county)

There are about 7 John Kerr marriages in these districts between 1879-1883

Shane

Ok how do i find these marriages then? What are the locations do you mind pasting them i might be able to decipher them?

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:23pm

the marriages are on the BMD Index - here's a link to the John Kerrs : https://www.familysearch.org/search/records#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJohn~%20%2Bsurname%3AKerr~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1879-1883~&collection_id=1408347&marriage_place0=5

for a possible marriage you need to find a bride and groom with the same references - i.e. the same year/quarter, registration district, volume number and page number

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:26pm

Would this be them then?

name: Catherine Mellon
registration district: Omagh
event type: MARRIAGES
registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1880
estimated birth year:
age (at death):
mother's maiden name:
film number: 101253
volume number: 2
page number: 189
digital folder number: 4179386
image number: 00574

name: John Carr
registration district: Omagh
event type: MARRIAGES
registration quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1880
estimated birth year:
age (at death):
mother's maiden name:
film number: 101253
volume number: 2
page number: 189
digital folder number: 4179386
image number: 00559

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:27pm

found a possible match under a variation in spelling in Co. Tyrone :

name: John Carr
registration district: Omagh
event type: Marriage
quarter and year: Jul - Sep 1880
volume : 2 / page : 189

name: Catherine Mellon
[same index details as John]

Shane

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:32pm

owenc wrote: »

Would this be them then?
....

just spotted that you posted at about the same time as I replied... I think it could be them Carr is close enough to Kerr, and if Mellon is definitely the correct surname for Catherine' the marriage is worth following up.

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:32pm

Ok right that has to be them then. I should probably expect them to be baptised in omagh then. But i'm not sure what church considering that dosn't tell you any of that i will look up kerrs im omagh to see if there is any.

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:33pm

Omagh is the district, covers the town and a large area of the county - the marriage could have been in a rural parish

I'd start your search with the church where the marriage took place - the cert will show this

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 2:35pm

shanew wrote: »

Omagh is the district, covers the town and a large area of the county - the marriage could have been in a rural parish

I'd start your search with the church where the marriage took place - the cert will show this

Shane

K so do you have to order it or can you get the church online somewhere? By the looks of things the mellons are catholics so maybe it was them who converted him or something.

shanew · 09-08-2011 2:49pm

you can order certs for this date from GRONI or from GRO Roscommon

I am not familiar with the process for GRONI, but I think certs from them are more expensive. The research certs from GRO Roscommon only cost €4 - and all you need are the basic details from the index - i.e. name, registration district, year/quarter, volume & page. The other details are internal references for FamilySearch

see : http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm

Dont worry about the extra details on the order form (RSI number etc) - just ensure you include the details above

Shane

P. Breathnach · 09-08-2011 3:58pm

I picked my way through the free search option on http://www.rootsireland.ie/, and found the marriage in Omagh (RD). I'm not sure what the "RD" represents, but it is distinct from Omagh (RC), which is the Roman Catholic church. I suspect that it is "Registration District", indicating a civil ceremony rather than a church one. [I'm sure that Shane will know if my guess is correct.]

You can purchase the record online for €5.

shanew · 09-08-2011 4:21pm

I'd agree - that's likely a civil record.

I'd go for the research cert from the GRO though ...the transcripts are not always complete

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 4:22pm

Hi thx that's what I suspected does that mean one of them was a Protestant then because that's what I'm suspecting because theres no way Catholics could get all that land in the. 1800s without being converts.. But I canny find his birth and somebody has haddyve converted anyway because Kerr is a Protestant name way border origins

P. Breathnach · 09-08-2011 4:31pm

I don't think the fact that they had a civil marriage rather than a church one proves anything conclusively, but it could indeed have happened that way because they were of different religions, one being a Catholic. Treat is as plausible rather than proven.

A Presbyterian would not have married in a Catholic church, and I rather think that a Catholic would not have married in a Presbyterian chapel.

shanew · 09-08-2011 4:38pm

A church marriage from 1880 would also have a civil record - so it could have been in a RC or other church. The only way to be sure is to look at the cert.

Shane

owenc · 09-08-2011 4:38pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think the fact that they had a civil marriage rather than a church one proves anything conclusively, but it could indeed have happened that way because they were of different religions, one being a Catholic. Treat is as plausible rather than proven.

A Presbyterian would not have married in a Catholic church, and I rather think that a Catholic would not have married in a Presbyterian chapel.

Presbyterians do not call it a chapel its a church. Also why not i know loads of people who have done that. Its had to happened kerr is a protestant name and its not irish so somebody has had to converted i'm just trying to figure who.

owenc · 09-08-2011 4:42pm

shanew wrote: »

A church marriage from 1880 would also have a civil record - so it could have been in a RC or other church. The only way to be sure is to look at the cert.

Shane

K but is there anyway of figuring out where they lived? Because that is the most thing i am interested in as if i get this i can go back further.It would also help at looking at other kerrs in the area and their religions. The kerrs in omagh are mostly church of ireland.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/results.jsp?census_year=1901&surname=kerr&exact=&firstname=&county=&townland=&ded=omagh&age=&sex=&relationToHead=&religion=&education=&occupation=&marriageStatus=&marriageYears=&childrenBorn=&childrenLiving=&birthplace=&language=&deafdumb=&search=Search&sort=&pageSize=100

shanew · 09-08-2011 4:52pm

The marriage cert will give the residences of the bride and groom prior to marriage. As well as this the cert will show place, and date of marriage, names and occupations of fathers, occupation of groom, (and bride if applicable), name of the priest/minister or registrar, and the names of the two witnesses.

Shane

P. Breathnach · 09-08-2011 6:13pm

owenc wrote: »

Presbyterians do not call it a chapel its a church. ....

Okay. Now I know. I wasn't sure, and guessed wrong.

owenc · 10-05-2013 9:10pm

Ok, Really embarrassed pelease do ignore my naivety!

Anyway, I am back and I haven't really made any further progress, although I have found a few things.

1. I'm sure that John Kerrs mother is Phillips.
http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local/newbuildings-then-and-now-1-2094918

"A man called John Kerr, who took over the local bar after the McIvor family, was the first person in the village to have a car, and was the proud owner of one of the first Fords ever produced, and yes, it was black. His grandfather George Phillips was the second man in the village to get himself some wheels, only he had a big Austin 12."

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/1539077/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000635303/

I am assuming that this William Phillips is a cousin or uncle of John Kerr. Perhaps he is George Phillips brother? What is interesting is that John Kerr owns the house.

Furthermore it would appear that William Phillips is James Phillips son??
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/willsSearchResultsDetails.aspx

Letters of Administration of the personal estate of James Phillips late of Drumagore County Londonderry Farmer who died 10 March 1854 at same place were granted at Londonderry to William Phillips of Drumagore aforesaid Farmer the Son.

I wonder if they are related?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Glendermot/Drumagore/1539155/

I found this: he 1833 Tithe Applotment Book shows a James Phillips at Drumnagore, also in Clondermott (Glendermott) parish although towards the south-western end of the parish. His son/nephew/close relative (?) Allan Phillips (who later held this same land) was described as a "strong Covenanter" (as was his wife Eliza Mitchell) . Kind regards, Dave Mitchell, Cape Town, South Africa
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=626265.0

Now, my main objective is to find the parents of John Kerr. But thus far I have yet to find anything. I do not even know where he was born. Suffice to say it is likely that his mother is from Derry City as it would seem that the Phillips are well established there.

http://www.billmacafee.com/1831census/1831derrycensusindex.pdf

I have tried searching everywhere for this George Phillips but cannot find anything. I am certain that their marriage is:

Record Type Civil Marriage
Date of Marriage 12 Sep 1880
Groom Name John CARR
Bride Name Catherine MELLON
Church Fintona Roman Catholic Church
Parish Donacavey
Civil District Omagh
County Tyrone

Thats all I have please try and help I went over to the Rootschat site and got a disgruntled kind of response. I thought i'd try over here.

dido2 · 10-05-2013 11:51pm

Did you not get that marriage cert to check if it was their marriage cert, if it is you'll get a lot more information, same for a birth cert for 1 or 2 of the kids, I often get the oldest and the youngest birth certs, if the addresses are the same then it'd grand, if they aren't i'll get the middle childs birth cert and keep going either side until I figure out when they moved to an address, your not really going to be able to get anymore about him until you get his marriage cert and possibly check out his death notice in a local paper if you know when he died

dido2 · 10-05-2013 11:56pm

Does John have any other names, there are a few John Kerrs born around 1855...

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:17am

Well no. I ordered a marriage certificate about two weeks ago for another family and all it said was the father and nothing about the mother. So say the fathers john then its going to be pretty hard to find him. I have no single idea as to where John is from at all. Im not sure what to do. Do you think there will be extra information on one of john kerrs children? Would his parents be on that?

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:19am

dido2 wrote: »

Does John have any other names, there are a few John Kerrs born around 1855...

Im not sure. I seen that on rootsireland.ie but you have to pay. I think theres two possibilities:

1. Clogher.
2. Donaghedy (a parish near new buildings)

dido2 · 11-05-2013 12:26am

Well if one of them Married in the church they were also baptised in there might be a baptism record too....

Even aside from that their addresses at the time of marriage might give you more of a clue along with the occupation of their fathers aswell...

dido2 · 11-05-2013 12:34am

Do you know if he was ever in the Military?

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:35am

dido2 wrote: »

Well if one of them Married in the church they were also baptised in there might be a baptism record too....

Even aside from that their addresses at the time of marriage might give you more of a clue along with the occupation of their fathers aswell...

So the marriage certificate actually has an address on it. Oh thats great. So say for example i find that hes from clogher and his father is called john. What do I do then?

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:35am

dido2 wrote: »

Do you know if he was ever in the Military?

I dont think so. He was a farmer and a grocer.

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:38am

Oh your right it does say "residence at time of marriage" and "fathers name and surname". Thats great.

I notice on the emerald ancestors site a sudden change of marriages in clogher from church of ireland to roman catholic around 1870. Maybe it was johns father who converted.

dido2 · 11-05-2013 12:42am

owenc wrote: »

So the marriage certificate actually has an address on it. Oh thats great. So say for example i find that hes from clogher and his father is called john. What do I do then?

Yeah they have an address for bride and groom, so if you get the marriage cert and it says John is his father then you can then narrow down any John Kerrs with fathers John, sometimes you can eliminate some possibles via Ancestry etc where others have posted family trees or in the case of on John Kerrs theres a military record for him so bit by bit you can narrow him down, once you've narrowed it down contact any churches you possibly think he could have been baptised in, and ask them to check the baptism records to see if any have a marriage entry in the baptism page where John Kerr Married a Catherine Mellon...

Always have a paper trail for each generation, prove your information, theres always someone who will doubt you, so ideally you'd have your grandmothers birth and marriage cert, then here parents marriage certs along with your grandfathers parents marriage certs then if possible the parents birth certs too!

dido2 · 11-05-2013 12:47am

Meant to say also the witnesses to the marriage can provide clues too as to which family they belong to if they were siblings to either the bride or groom

owenc · 11-05-2013 12:47am

dido2 wrote: »

Yeah they have an address for bride and groom, so if you get the marriage cert and it says John is his father then you can then narrow down any John Kerrs with fathers John, sometimes you can eliminate some possibles via Ancestry etc where others have posted family trees or in the case of on John Kerrs theres a military record for him so bit by bit you can narrow him down, once you've narrowed it down contact any churches you possibly think he could have been baptised in, and ask them to check the baptism records to see if any have a marriage entry in the baptism page where John Kerr Married a Catherine Mellon...

Always have a paper trail for each generation, prove your information, theres always someone who will doubt you, so ideally you'd have your grandmothers birth and marriage cert, then here parents marriage certs along with your grandfathers parents marriage certs then if possible the parents birth certs too!

Yes, I made a major mistake in another tree so I will be taking extra precautions this time. I think I will order the marriage certificate and see from there. The only problem is that online there are no records on emerald ancestry to 1855 for a john kerr which means I need to look at microfilmed church records and im not sure what religion he was baptised or even what church.

dido2 · 11-05-2013 12:57am

I've had good success with emailing different churches to ask them to check dates so it might be possible once you at least have a fathers name......

Theres a
John Kerr baptised on Londonderry in 1854

John Kerr Londondeerry, 7 Apr 1854 Parents: John, Martha

Samuel John Kerr 10 Sep 1856 Presbyterian, Dromara, Down, Ireland Parent:John, Mary

William John Kerr 5 Mar 1858 Dromore Parish, Down, Ireland Archibald, Mary

Joseph John Kerr 27 Feb 1859 Drummond, Parish of Clonfecle, Tyr, Ireland James, Sarah

John Alexander Kerr 16 Jul 1858 Dromore Parish, Down, Ireland John Alexander, Emma Victoria

owenc · 11-05-2013 1:01am

dido2 wrote: »

I've had good success with emailing different churches to ask them to check dates so it might be possible once you at least have a fathers name......

Theres a
John Kerr baptised on Londonderry in 1854

John Kerr Londondeerry, 7 Apr 1854 Parents: John, Martha

Samuel John Kerr 10 Sep 1856 Presbyterian, Dromara, Down, Ireland Parent:John, Mary

William John Kerr 5 Mar 1858 Dromore Parish, Down, Ireland Archibald, Mary

Joseph John Kerr 27 Feb 1859 Drummond, Parish of Clonfecle, Tyr, Ireland James, Sarah

John Alexander Kerr 16 Jul 1858 Dromore Parish, Down, Ireland John Alexander, Emma Victoria

Yes, I have done that before. Thank you for the records.

It says on census he is from tyrone and he married in tyrone so I doubt he is the two county londonderry ones. I guess I will have to find the marriage certificate. Just one last question? Do you have any tips as to the whereabouts of george phillips? I cannot find him anywhere? Is william another name for george?

dido2 · 11-05-2013 1:08am

I've had people be from 2 different places on both census's so like everything else I don't take it as being 100% accurate unless I see the proof!!!

Is the John Kerr Publican your John Kerr??

owenc · 11-05-2013 1:10am

dido2 wrote: »

I've had people be from 2 different places on both census's so like everything else I don't take it as being 100% accurate unless I see the proof!!!

Is the John Kerr Publican your John Kerr??

Erm yes I think he owned a bar yes.

dido2 · 11-05-2013 1:21am

Was it before or after the 2 Census?? He's listed as a Carpenter in 1901 and a Farmer & General Merchant for the 1911 census, if he owned the pub after 1911 or before 1901 it would help narrow down George Philips.

owenc · 11-05-2013 1:28am

dido2 wrote: »

Was it before or after the 2 Census?? He's listed as a Carpenter in 1901 and a Farmer & General Merchant for the 1911 census, if he owned the pub after 1911 or before 1901 it would help narrow down George Philips.

Well im not sure but I think maybe at 1911 because in the 1911 there is a samuel mcivor living with them.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Glendermot/Ballyore/605273/

Maybe the house they are living in is the pub.

dido2 · 11-05-2013 1:41am

It looks like it's the same house in both census, if it were a pub it would probably mention he was a publican in the census

owenc · 11-05-2013 1:47am

dido2 wrote: »

It looks like it's the same house in both census, if it were a pub it would probably mention he was a publican in the census

Well I dont know then. Ive checked all the wills and there are no George phillips wills in my county or tyrone and he probably died in 1900 something.

John kerr 1855 where is he?

Comments