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Cold Spell Late Feb/ Early March Technical Discussion only MOD NOTE POST #1

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    The last time we had easterly snow, it was very educational to watch how a narrow band of heavy snow meandered up and down the east coast as the wind direction changed by just a degree or two, and the Isle of Man streamer moved accordingly. There was and is no way to give wind forecasts to the degree of accuracy that would be needed to allow people to know where was going to be affected, as an example, the intensity of the snow in the streamers meant that the airport was massively affected if the streamer was over them, and not at all troubled if it moved literally a mile north or south.

    In the same way this last week, when the snow first started, we had next to nothing in Ashbourne, as the Isle of Man shadow meant the streamers came on shore south of us, if the wind had been just a bit more east than north, we'd have had a lot more snow in the early stages of the event. That can't be forecast with the precision that would mean the difference between a yellow or red alert, so the only option is to say that a wider area is at red risk.

    The same applies to geographical areas local to the Wicklow mountains, and other high ground, a few miles can make a huge difference, but the next day, a few degrees wind shift will change the areas affected, or not affected, and that's without other changes in the structure and temperatures of the air masses causing the weather.

    With each weather event that happens, the historic data enlarges, so the models (in theory) have more history to draw on and refine the results, but even then, we have to recognise that minute variations of a huge number of possible parameters can mean that today's results will not be the same as they were the last time there were similar parameters.

    The Met office have to then make a call based on all the information they have to hand, and based on the possible variances that may occur, and they have to do it with enough lead time to allow affected parties to respond accordingly. A Red alert 1 hour before massive snow fall will occur is too late, a red alert 4 days before the event is too early, and transport and distribution organisations realistically need at least 24 hours notice in order to put appropriate close down or modification plans into place.

    OK, some of the country didn't get the worst possible scenario, but the forecast was indicating that there was the strong possibility of needing it, and the balance of probability was that it would happen. Be glad it didn't, rather than beating up on the relevant decision makers, their main priority was public safety, and for most of the country, they got it right. The very low death toll and lack of massive pressure on already stretched emergency services was a huge benefit of the way the situation was managed.

    We only get to see what the media chooses to report from the "public coverage" of things like the Emergency response meetings, we don't get to know about the many minor detail decisions made to ensure food got out of storage locations, or power was restored to water treatment plants, or critical staff were moved by civil defence, or put into hotels because they couldn't get home, or all of the other issues that affected every aspect of life for a few days.

    I'm also sure that once things are back to normal, all concerned will look at how it worked out, and next time round, the plan will be better, or if not better, it will have been tweaked a little where needed to improve the end result.

    If people are not happy with how it all worked out, complaining on the net won't change it, making positive suggestions on how to improve the plan to the relevant people may mean a better outcome next time round.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭brookers


    patneve2 wrote: »
    Looks to me that snowfall wise this storm dumped a lot more snow than the 1982 event in many areas and was superior to 1982 in this regard. However, i think that 1982 was superior from a synoptic point of view - it looks like it packed a stronger punch even though it lasted for a shorter amount of time. Also, i bet that dew points were lower during that event with drier snow even on coasts throughout the storm. The 2018 storm occurred when the colder air had already passed over ireland. The 82 one had a perfect max cold - atlantic interaction making it the rarest set up possible in irish weather imo.

    I was on a farm when 1982 happened and a snow drift didnt thaw until march, it was on a lane, what happened then was that people were not that really well prepared, kinda waking up from a sleepy christmas, I think there was way more snow this time but people whilst isolated have more contact with the outside world, social media, farmers coming with jcbs diggers etc, wasnt as much of that around in 1982, we were much more backward....


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,968 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    snow is almost melted here now except for compacted snow and slushy snow mounds. Half my garden is green again and most of the driveway is clear. All side roads were cleared this morning by a JCB and are fine for driving again.

    I have noticed that Dunshaughlin village itself had a heavier snow layer compared to where I live 2km to the east of the town. There is a noticeable difference in the amount of snow piles and lying snow between Dunshaughlin village and my area which is half way to Ratoath.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    @Irish Steve some good points there, especially how our preparation for it goes.

    In 1982 there was the serious issue of diesel clumping up from a lack of antifreeze in the fuel. That was since dealt with by law.

    In 2001 the significant power losses led to the ESB doing some network changes to help prevent so many areas being vulnerable to 20kV lines getting downed in a blizzard.

    2010 had the country flatfooted when it came to salt supplies and equipment to clear roads and runways. Since that, salt and grit stockpiles are more available and used when freezing temperatures are forecast.

    2018 was handled fairly well by all national agencies and pretty good macroscopic weather modelling to help us prepare.

    What I'd like to see change is an acceptance in this country that we need to have winter tyres on vehicles more often. An adoption of graphical weather warnings like by the UKMO which covers areas rather than simple county boundaries. Finally, some more sophisticated radar and a third base located in the NW of the country. The radar this time around was a mess for all the hardest-hit areas, something a better upgrade than the one a few years ago might fix.

    Finally, shout-out to Weathercheck for calling the prolonged and at times heavy snow on Friday evening which added well over 10cm in much of the Dublin area. It was flagged in different ways by the models, and M.T Cranium called the trend too earlier on Friday. But the intensity of the snow and the way air temps clung on below zero throughout the day was something I didn't expect at Friday lunchtime based on the existing guidance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,994 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    .
    PS. I think in future we'll have to look to Greenland for a prolonged cold spell as Scand highs only last a couple of days.

    The scandi high was not helped by a west based nao setting up, that means any high there usually goes too far west when it retrogresses. If we had an east based nao, the high when it retrogressed would have been further east, but then the attack from the south may not have happened at all, thus no snowstorm

    If your preference, which yours seems to be, is a prolonged cold spell then that would have been a positive thing. However we had a set of charts last Thursday that we will not likely see again in our life time. I think we will see cold outbreaks in the future, but i'll eat my socks if we witness last weeks snowfall again within the next 35 years .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Casualsingby


    gozunda wrote: »
    Many of the existing weather stations are located along or adjacent to the coastline - there are significant inland areas which have little or no coverage with the result that weather variables are under reported imo.

    MapMonData.png


    Most notable block imo is Limerick Mid / South Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford with existing weather stations being outliers outside this area. There is also a huge block of Kerry and Cork which has no significant coverage. Given the varied terrain and topography of these areas I believe a dearth of weather stations is a significant issue with recording weather data.

    Yes there is poor representation country wide. Agree with areas you mentioned. Three in Ulster and two of those are on the coast. I believe the all Ireland temperature record could, emphasis could have been broken in December 2010.

    Northern Ireland has a lot more representation. Some attachments below from met office showing how cold it was in the west of Northern Ireland. - 7 or more minimum temperature anomaly. A shot of the wide difference of minimum temperature on one night,-18 to -3.3. And "Hourly air temperature at Castlederg, 49m amsl, from 24 November to 27 December 2010. Between 0500 utc on 18 December and 2300 utc on 25 December (187 hours) the air temperature was continuously below –5°C (denoted by the blue arrow), falling below –15°C on 6 nights and briefly reaching –15°C again at 1900 utc on the 25th. The record minimum of –18.7°C is also marked. Note the sudden thaw on Boxing Day, the temperature rising 18 degC in 18 hours“ Castlederg is 1 to 2km away from the Donegal border.

    Met Éireann “The Cold Spell in Historical Context
    There is no single figure which classifies a spell of cold weather and allows fully objective comparison
    with previous events. Important factors are the duration of the cold weather, how cold it was and
    how much snow. This particular cold spell was notable for being the earliest spell of significant
    duration (started in November). It was also notable for the sustained extreme low temperatures. We would characterise December 2010 as the most extreme cold spell in terms of
    the “depth of cold” but the cold spell of 1963 was significantly longer.“


    Most extreme recorded in terms of depth of cold. It really was amazing when you think about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Each little white pixel is like 20 square kilometres I don't think its that accurate

    I would have loved to have seen a NASA image of the country !

    You can here, they take an image every day but there's too much cloud to see any snow. https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/?p=geographic&l=VIIRS_SNPP_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Aqua_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor(hidden),MODIS_Terra_CorrectedReflectance_TrueColor,Reference_Labels,Reference_Features,Coastlines&t=2018-02-28&z=3&v=-9.667321277630757,50.90035277224669,-1.2298212776307569,55.07076292849669


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,994 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    gabeeg wrote: »
    3 weeks ago I was f5-ing the GFS's FI charts looking for signs of impact from the SSW. An easterly was depicted, and eventually made its way here.
    .

    When the UKMO is steadfast about a a cold outbreak a couple of weeks in advance it's always a good sign too. It was that way in 2010 too. And speaking of the gfs, as you point out, whatever about over doing low temperatures and sometimes being too progressive with breakdowns, it is good at picking up on a new signal well out in FI.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Casualsingby


    What was the lowest max temperature for Thursday? Surely the march record was broken?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    When the UKMO is steadfast about a a cold outbreak a couple of weeks in advance it's always a good sign too. It was that way in 2010 too. And speaking of the gfs, as you point out, whatever about over doing low temperatures and sometimes being too progressive with breakdowns, it is good at picking up on a new signal well out in FI.
    Very true, though to GFS' credit, it was one of the first to flag Storm Emma in the first place last weekend, and in a rather similar form to how it actually verified.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    What was the lowest max temperature for Thursday? Surely the march record was broken?

    Edit: misread your post, thought it was the minimum you were after. I'll leave the below anyway.

    -7.0 in Cork Airport. We didn't get any long clear nights but the 1947 record for March is -17.2 which was always going to be a hard one to beat.

    It did beat the Cork record for March though which was -6.1 (source below, only up to 2010 so unless they got any lower since then)
    http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/extreme-mintemps.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Casualsingby


    sdanseo wrote: »
    Edit: misread your post, thought it was the minimum you were after. I'll leave the below anyway.

    -7.0 in Cork Airport. We didn't get any long clear nights but the 1947 record for March is -17.2 which was always going to be a hard one to beat.

    It did beat the Cork record for March though which was -6.1 (source below, only up to 2010 so unless they got any lower since then)
    http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/extreme-mintemps.pdf

    Looks like the record for Northern Ireland was broken. -1.2 twice, I think I saw somewhere in the east of northern ireland with a high of -2 on Thursday.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Casualsingby


    Yeah NI march record for lowest maximum temperature was broken on Thursday.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,467 Mod ✭✭✭✭mickger844posts


    The scandi high was not helped by a west based nao setting up, that means any high there usually goes too far west when it retrogresses. If we had an east based nao, the high when it retrogressed would have been further east, but then the attack from the south may not have happened at all, thus no snowstorm

    If your preference, which yours seems to be, is a prolonged cold spell then that would have been a positive thing. However we had a set of charts last Thursday that we will not likely see again in our life time. I think we will see cold outbreaks in the future, but i'll eat my socks if we witness last weeks snowfall again within the next 35 years .

    I think you are right Nacho. The majority of us in here will never see the likes of it again. As snow storms go it was the perfect storm. Endless snow with massive drifts. Did we ever think we would get a chance to witness such an event.
    Model wise the signs were there 10 days out but we had so many disappointments in the past we just couldn't believe. So we had 2010 for unbelievable cold and longevity and 2018 for massive snow amounts so is that it for us now? Can we ever reach these highs again? Well we just have to believe we can as thats what we strive for.
    Models in general performed really well but for me Icon has put itself up there to rival the big three and maybe can we now say we have a big four?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Models in general performed really well but for me Icon has put itself up there to rival the big three and maybe can we now say we have a big four?

    One swallow does not a summer make.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,596 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    That map with the 25 or so stations just shows the daily reporting sites. The met service have a second order group of stations from which they can pull in reports, for example the report of the maximum snow depth at Glencullen, not on the list of daily sites. Also not on the list would be various co-op stations which I believe includes Danno's station in Laois, and Kerry airport, Waterford airport and Donegal airport. You can often see Kerry and Donegal airport reports on meteociel maps and occasionally Waterford airport too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭BLIZZARD7


    JCX BXC wrote: »
    One swallow does not a summer make.

    Indeed, the ICON model has had its moments but for me GEM is closer to if not better than some of the others (thinking GFS mainly here). All of this can be settled with verification stats anyway although they don't really show the true picture for how accurate the models are locally over Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,596 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Good job everyone who contributed to this thread. It helped me a lot, you can imagine how much extra work I might have been forced to do, had there not been a steady supply of useful and timely map and data captures. Also the opinions and outlooks that you shared went into my forecasts more than you might imagine, I have learned over these past ten years to search out the consensus of the more knowledgeable posters on the forum and if there's a range, that helps me too because then I know what range of possible outcomes might be reasonable.

    So whenever people thank me in particular, you should understand that I know if they don't know, that it's a group effort (not a highly organized one like Net-weather employs) and not just me flying solo. However when I mess up, that's all on me. :)

    Unrelated second item -- I posted an interesting table of monthly temperatures (from the CET) for the Dalton and overlapping decades, to show how cold it can get when the Sun goes fairly quiet. That's in the general chat thread for this event, around 10:20 p.m. today just ending.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    And at night? In the early hours of Sat morning the snow stopped and immediately the temperature started to creep above freezing, game over I thought and went to bed.
    In Jan 1987 the same happened, the snow stopped and an immediate thaw began at night.
    If some posters (not you G.L.) think I'm a moaner they're probably right but what good is a snowfall without a few days of blue skies, dazzling sunshine and hard frost at night? Thats why the St Stephen's Day thaw in 2010 didn't bother me, we had what was a long cold spell by Irish standards and got a glorious sunny Xmas Day out of it. Couldn't complain!
    IMBYism? Can you imagine if today was sunny? (the thaw would be no quicker than now, Johnstown Castle now 7c, no sun) The WHOLE country would be enjoying themselves with toboggans or even a plastic bag would do! Instead we have had our three days and today is so vile few want to venture out. I know we don't live in Canada but to have a decent fall lie for just a few days and not a complete waste would be pleasant.

    The air at 1.5 metres can be very different to the air right at the snow or the temperature of the surface underneath. Depending on factors such as snow depth, age, contamination, type of underlying surface, ground temperature, etc., what goes on in the snow cover may be unrelated to the air above. Solar radiation can heat up the underlying surface (e.g. pavement, roof) and cause melting while having little ffect on the reported air temperature. This is a well-studied scientific fact. Add almost 50% stronger radiation and 50% longer daylight for a March snowfall and it's not surprising to see quicker melt than the same fall in January. That's why I don't get why the thaw would be no quicker now if it was completely sunny.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Latest snow depths at 6 am this morning. Still some sizeable figures in the UK. Little Rissington (215 m) still 42 cm.

    444764.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭patneve2


    The M6 record is particularly interesting. Wouldnt be surprised if it occurred with heavy showers as its located far enough west to get showers off a deep easterly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    Probably the last snow depth chart of this event. Still had 13 cm in Tallaght today, but the other stations are in rapid decline. Casement has stopped reporting depths in the past few hours.

    444845.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Casualsingby


    Did Shannon break it's 6cm record? Well that's the highest it had in the last 50 60 years according to the Met eireann image posted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Did Shannon break it's 6cm record? Well that's the highest it had in the last 50 60 years according to the Met eireann image posted.

    No it didn't, surpringly the area around Shannon didn't get that much snow while most of the rest of Clare got a sizeable amount. For example driving on Sunday from West Clare to Ennis, there was snow cover in every field, yet from Ennis to Limerick there was very little to none.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭piuswal


    How many miles off shore are these?


    The Sea Aea Map gives some indication

    View Sea Area Map

    The Sea Area Forecast issued by Met Éireann covers Irish Coastal Waters out to 30 nautical miles, and also includes the Irish Sea area as shown in the map

    See
    http://www.met.ie/marine/buoy_locations.asp for exact locations



    M1
    62090 53 07.6 N
    11 12 W 53° 7' 36" N
    11° 12' 0" W 53.127
    -11.200 Off the Galway coast
    Approximately 40 nautical miles (74 km) westsouthwest of Slyne Head

    M2
    62091 53 28.8 N
    5 25.5 W 53° 28' 48" N
    5° 25' 30" W 53.480
    -5.425 Irish Sea
    A pproximately 20 nautical miles (37Km) east of Howth Head

    M3
    62092 51 13 N
    10 33 W 51° 13' 0" N
    10° 33' 0" W 51.217
    -10.550 Off the Cork coast
    Approximately 30 nautical miles (56km) southwest of Mizen Head

    M4
    62093 55 0 N
    10 0 W 55° 0' 0" N
    10° 0' 0" W 55.000
    -10.000 Off the Donegal coast
    Approximately 45 nautical miles (83 km) west northwest of Rossan Point

    M5
    62094 51 41.4 N
    6 42.3 W 51° 41' 24" N
    6° 42' 16" W 51.690
    -6.704 Off the south Wexford coast
    Approximately 30 nautical miles (56 km) south of Hook Head

    M6
    62095 52 59.2 N
    15 52 W 52° 59' 09" N
    15°52' 0 " W 52.986
    -15.866 Deep Atlantic
    Approximately 210 nautical miles (389 km) west southwest of Slyne Head


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭sidcon




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,667 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Todays ECM to come, we'll see if there is any progress but the UKMO is sharp enough. GFS is near miss territory.

    UKMOPEU12_144_1.png

    All to play for. No sign of Spring yet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ECM @120 hrs - gonna be close

    ECM1-120.GIF?11-0


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    Lots of flip flopping with the GFS, the 12Z has the cold staying over Russia, the 06Z had it over us, the 18Z yesterday had the cold staying Russia, the 12Z had it over us.

    In essence, don't take the GFS with any confidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    ECM @ 144, could be a near miss but the potential is definitely there for some more disruptive weather. I still consider it less likely than something more benign.

    ECMOPEU12_144_2.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,169 ✭✭✭Rebelbrowser


    ECM @ 144, could be a near miss but the potential is definitely there for some more disruptive weather. I still consider it less likely than something more benign.

    ECMOPEU12_144_2.png

    certainly on the ecm if I was going to Twickenham next weekend Id bring a hat and scarf.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Reckon one of these threads should probably be closed now (?) as i'm after getting confused and posting in this thread instead of the current model thread :/


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 12,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭Meteorite58


    Reckon one of these threads should probably be closed now (?) as i'm after getting confused and posting in this thread instead of the current model thread :/

    Yes it might be best to close this thread for now and use the FI Thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057847461

    or

    Spring 2018: General discussion

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057846555

    If some severe weather does materialize a thread might be opened for that if needs be.


This discussion has been closed.
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