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Toilet Training Help

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  • 22-03-2019 6:03pm
    #1
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭


    Hi Everybody, I am looking for advice/help re toilet training a 3.5 month old Lab Retriever.

    We got our Lab 11 days ago. I am using a crate to train him. We are having serious issues with toilet training him. He is having multiple accidents since last Friday, he keeps going inside.

    I am not sure what we are doing wrong. Sometimes I have been outside with him for 30 minutes and he has held it until back inside the kitchen, it is becoming very frustrating as he just doesnt seem to be getting it.

    To be clear I/we haven't scolded or smacked him once for going inside only encouraged, praised and treated him when he goes outside.

    Structure/Routine
    Morning
    Toileted(always goes outside)
    Fed/Watered(20 minutes)
    Toileted
    Played/Trained or Walking
    Toileted
    Back into crate

    Afternoon
    Toileted
    Fed/Watered(20 minutes)
    Toileted
    Played/Trained
    Toileted
    Back into crate

    Evening
    Toileted
    Fed/Watered
    Toileted
    Played/Trained or Walking
    Toileted

    Late Evening
    Toileted
    Fed/Watered
    Toileted
    Trained
    Toileted
    Back into crate

    I get up once at night to Toilet him(generally goes too)

    In the evenings I have to confine him as we cannot trust him when not directly playing with or training him as he will just go on the floor without any signal or he will signal and after being brought outside he seems to hold it until back inside(sometimes I could have him outside for 20-30 minutes)

    With regards to training, he will Come, Sit, (Lie) Down, nearly has Fetch.

    Any questions please ask, any advice or help please give it.

    I do realise "accidents" should be expected but should they be expected daily and multiple times?


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    #2
    VonVix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭VonVix


    Are you always going outside with him and praising him once he goes outside?
    When you bring him back inside, when he hasn't gone, do you put him in his crate or let him roam free?
    Has he had any accidents in his crate?
    Have you used puppy pads inside now or at any point?
    What's the surface inside that he goes on (tile, wood, etc)?
    What's the surface he typically goes on when he's outside (concrete, grass, etc)?

    Edit: Also! What are you cleaning the surface with that he has gone on?

    [Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]



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    #3
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    VonVix wrote: »
    Are you always going outside with him and praising him once he goes outside?

    Yes I bring him outside on a lead
    VonVix wrote: »
    When you bring him back inside, when he hasn't gone, do you put him in his crate or let him roam free?

    He goes back in his crate if he doesnt go for about 5-10 minutes and I bring him straight back out to toilet
    VonVix wrote: »
    Has he had any accidents in his crate?

    Hes had 2 accidents, 1 totally my fault as I was out and got delayed and had left him too long. The second was after bringing him out to Toilet, a half hour walk, toilet again and then I placed him back in his crate and he went within 1 minute of being inside. These 2 accidents were 4 days apart.
    VonVix wrote: »
    Have you used puppy pads inside now or at any point?

    No I havent used puppy pads, the first 4 days he only had 1 accident inside so I saw no point.
    VonVix wrote: »
    What's the surface inside that he goes on (tile, wood, etc)?
    What's the surface he typically goes on when he's outside (concrete, grass, etc)?

    Surface inside is tiled floor, every accident cleaned with odor eliminator and then mopping of floor, the surface outside is concrete.


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    #4
    VonVix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭VonVix


    Good about the puppy pads, I was wondering if based on history he might have been accidentally trained to go in the house at some point, as newspapers or puppy pads tend to do. Definitely something to avoid using.

    I'm not sure what ingredients are in odor eliminator, but the reason why I mentioned it is that anything ammonia (bleach for example) can encourage more urinating in a specific area.

    You said if he hasn't gone when he goes outside, he goes back in and pees on the floor, how does this work if you crate him when you bring him back in and he hasn't gone?

    Have you tried putting it on cue when you bring him outside? When I had to housetrain an adult dog, I put it on cue, so I would say the word (for me, I used "get busy" as his cue) and he would start sniffing around to find the right place to go. Considering you have been training the basics, he may pick it up easy enough.

    For example...
    Wait for him to pee/poo > "Get busy, good!" Point to area > Treat
    Repeat x5-x10 times.
    Say cue first "Get busy" > point to area > Puppy pees/poos > Good! Treat.
    Some people may do this differently, but this is what worked for me.

    I no longer use the cue during the day, except for last time during the night the dogs are let out as a reminder lol.

    [Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]



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    #5
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    VonVix wrote: »
    Good about the puppy pads, I was wondering if based on history he might have been accidentally trained to go in the house at some point, as newspapers or puppy pads tend to do. Definitely something to avoid using.

    I'm not sure what ingredients are in odor eliminator, but the reason why I mentioned it is that anything ammonia (bleach for example) can encourage more urinating in a specific area.

    You said if he hasn't gone when he goes outside, he goes back in and pees on the floor, how does this work if you crate him when you bring him back in and he hasn't gone?

    Have you tried putting it on cue when you bring him outside? When I had to housetrain an adult dog, I put it on cue, so I would say the word (for me, I used "get busy" as his cue) and he would start sniffing around to find the right place to go. Considering you have been training the basics, he may pick it up easy enough.

    For example...
    Wait for him to pee/poo > "Get busy, good!" Point to area > Treat
    Repeat x5-x10 times.
    Say cue first "Get busy" > point to area > Puppy pees/poos > Good! Treat.
    Some people may do this differently, but this is what worked for me.

    I no longer use the cue during the day, except for last time during the night the dogs are let out as a reminder lol.

    To be honest, I avoided pupoy pads as I didnt see the point in training him to do something that Id have to untrain him in!!

    I havent used bleach in the floor, I had read about ammonia, I got the odor eliminator as I had read that they'll keep going in ares they can smell!!

    He would go the second he got back inside between the back door and his crate, or he would run off when I let him off the lead and go, now I dont take him off the lead until he is sat in the crate!!

    Ive been using the Cue word toilet, I say it to him while hes toileting and then afterwards when I treat him/pet him!!

    Im honestly not sure what it is im doing wrong!!


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    #6
    VonVix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭VonVix


    Rifter wrote: »
    To be honest, I avoided pupoy pads as I didnt see the point in training him to do something that Id have to untrain him in!!

    I havent used bleach in the floor, I had read about ammonia, I got the odor eliminator as I had read that they'll keep going in ares they can smell!!

    He would go the second he got back inside between the back door and his crate, or he would run off when I let him off the lead and go, now I dont take him off the lead until he is sat in the crate!!

    Ive been using the Cue word toilet, I say it to him while hes toileting and then afterwards when I treat him/pet him!!

    Im honestly not sure what it is im doing wrong!!
    To be honest you're doing miles better than a hell of a lot of puppy owners.
    It might be that he's just going to take a bit more time.

    Do you know anything about his history before you got him? Is he a rescue/backyard bred/something else? See, a lot of crucial learning happens in the 2-3 month mark. You could be trying to undo what he had either been taught by his mother or by the person who had him before. Like was he born in a shed/outside the home environment, that sort of thing.

    For example, two of my dogs born inside the home, once they became mobile they were moved outside. They were a bit more difficult to housetrain (on top of not knowing what I was doing so much!) my third dog was a breeze, his mother would herd her puppies in and out of the house for toileting, in turn he was mostly housetrained by 12 weeks.

    [Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]



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    #7
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    VonVix wrote: »
    To be honest you're doing miles better than a hell of a lot of puppy owners.
    It might be that he's just going to take a bit more time.

    Do you know anything about his history before you got him? Is he a rescue/backyard bred/something else? See, a lot of crucial learning happens in the 2-3 month mark. You could be trying to undo what he had either been taught by his mother or by the person who had him before. Like was he born in a shed/outside the home environment, that sort of thing.

    For example, two of my dogs born inside the home, once they became mobile they were moved outside. They were a bit more difficult to housetrain (on top of not knowing what I was doing so much!) my third dog was a breeze, his mother would herd her puppies in and out of the house for toileting, in turn he was mostly housetrained by 12 weeks.

    He was got from a farmer who owned both Bitch and Dog!! He was an outside dog before I got him, although the Seller told me they were allowed into the house!! Dog came wormed, vaccinated, microchipped and IKC regd.

    I suppose it could be that hes adjusting to being inside and being trained to go outside to toilet.

    Thanks for the replies VV


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    #8
    tk123
    Registered Users Posts: 14,024 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    I wonder are you maybe praising him too soon when he goes? You want to gently encourage him then jackpot when he’s finished. With Lucy she’d lie down and go asleep rather than go to the loo :p so I did spend a lot of time waiting and encouraging her to go with her cue. Another thing we did was have a bell beside the door and touch her nose to it taking her out and it didn’t take her long to ring it when she wanted to go out.

    You only have him 11 days remember - he might need time to get into a routine and develop control - he’s still a baby.


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    #9
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Is there a reason for keeping him on-lead when you bring him out? I'd be very much inclined, if the garden is escape-proof, to let him off and mooch around... He's far more likely to toilet under these circumstances :)


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    #10
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    DBB wrote: »
    Is there a reason for keeping him on-lead when you bring him out? I'd be very much inclined, if the garden is escape-proof, to let him off and mooch around... He's far more likely to toilet under these circumstances :)

    I had read it was a good way to bring them to a specific toilet area so as not to have the dog toileting in the entire back garden.


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    #11
    tk123
    Registered Users Posts: 14,024 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    What you’ll find is that dogs are individuals like ourselves so things don’t always go by the book and we need to adapt our approach and sometime expectations for each dog. My two generally do go in the same places but they’ve chosen them. And they will always go quicker when they’re off lead and can sniff around themselves compared to being on lead. We have a hose outside to wash the garden down so a bit of wee isn’t an issue... I have to say puppy accidents weren’t really an issue for us in the house either - possibly because my mam is from a big family so used to 7 baby’s wee and poo lol. Lucy wee’d a few times in her sleep too when she was younger - once when she was asleep next to me lol!
    Crating is great but there’s a danger of overdoing it too. If it was me I know I have more success picking up on signs if the pup was out of the crate when I can keep an eye on them.

    PS you don’t need to verbally scold a dog for them to know you’re frustrated so try to relax and enjoy the puppy months!


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    #12
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Rifter wrote: »
    I had read it was a good way to bring them to a specific toilet area so as not to have the dog toileting in the entire back garden.

    Ah, okay. I can see your logic, and you're obviously really trying hard to do things right, which will really stand to you :)
    But I think, in your pup's case, that you need to do what you've got to do to establish toileting outdoors first, and then refine things to get him peeing in a certain spot... When any part of training isn't going to plan, it's usually more effective to try to break it down into smaller steps, then build it up into something closer to the desired behaviour. So... I think I'd be letting him off lead to mooch around, because this increases the chances of him going outside, which gives you more opportunities to positively reinforce him for going outside, which will promote him going outside more often!
    Once he's far more reliably going outside, you can start to narrow down the places where he gets reinforced for going, bit by bit, until you have him going in the desired area... Marking out an area for him to target at that stage should help too :)


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    #13
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    Thank you for all of the help and advice so far, fairly successful day today, only 1 accident and it was due to excitement from training and play


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    #14
    Jane1012
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Jane1012


    We have a just turned 5 month old lab. We have been very lucky in that she took to toilet training very quick but we did use puppy pads for the first week. Rewarding her every time she used it and if she went anywhere else making a loud noise and immediately bringing her to the pad. We gradually moved the pad to the back door and then outside for a day and then took the pad away completely. You need an odour illimator if he has gone inside, I’ve heard Zoflora is good but I haven’t used it. Another method I have read but would require some commitment from you (worth it in the long run though) is to literally have them tied to your waist so everywhere you go inside they go and if they try go to the toilet you can catch it straight away and bring them straight outside. If he’s not with you, have him in his crate. This should only take a few days. Remember to reward within 3 seconds of him finishing (not starting) to pee and mix up the rewards, don’t rely on treats. Praise and rubs or a toy work great too.
    Also make sure that his crate isn’t too big for him, if it is use a crate divider so that he doesn’t have room to go to the toilet and sleep on the other side.

    The Q word works a treat but one bit of advice don’t use ‘potty’ I stupidly did and now I look like a right idiot walking around saying potty.. my husband is even less impressed with that word cause he is using it too ��


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    #15
    tk123
    Registered Users Posts: 14,024 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    Jane1012 wrote: »

    The Q word works a treat but one bit of advice don’t use ‘potty’ I stupidly did and now I look like a right idiot walking around saying potty.. my husband is even less impressed with that word cause he is using it too ��

    Yep I was about to say the same thing! Pick something you don’t mind saying in the dead of night that all your neighbours might hear lol! :p


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    #16
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    Tomorrow will be 2 full weeks, I appreciate he us only 3.5 months old, he had an accident this morning, what was frustrating was he woke me at 7.30am to poo, I brought him out, he went, i praised him and gave him a rub, kept him outside for 10 more minutes no wee so back inside for breakfast.

    He was eating his breakfast and went to the back door after about 10 minutes, jackpot i thought, outside... nothing, back inside to finish breakfast. Then he went to the backdoor again, i thought he definitely has it cracked now, outside we go.... nothing.

    Back inside to finish breakfast( i only leave his food with him for 20 minutes) and he runs to the backdoor again, within 5-10seconds he dud a wee on the mat, I literally didnt get to the backdoor to let him out.


    So he knows what to do and where to go but these accidents just keep happening.

    I use a combination of treat and/or praise when he is successful.

    Ill be honest it is very frustrating because at the same time ive trained him to

    Come
    Sit
    (Lie) Down
    (Get) Up
    Fetch
    Paw (not taught by me)

    And also he sits everytime I stop when hes out walking.

    He is very trainable, eager to learn and despite the accidents a joy to have.


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    #17
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Have I got this right? He went to the door a couple of times whilst eating, and you responded, but no joy. Then he went to the door and you didn't respond in time, and he peed? Sorry op... If that's how it was, that was human error! You didn't get him out on time!
    Seriously... You've had him a fortnight, he's 14ish wks old... Give him some latitude here! Your expectations seem too high. Stuff like Sit, Down and Paw are easy to learn. Learning to discriminate that you want him to pee/poop outside, coupled with a watering down (pardon the pun) of the message with mistakes like above, is a much harder lesson to learn, particularly if the breeder didn't start the concept of inside vs outside from the outset.
    You say when he pooped outside this morning, you praised him and petted him. No treat? You also said you combine treat and/or praise... I think you're going to run into trouble unless you start using very tasty treats every single time until he gets the message. Only then should you think about randomising the food rewards. It is absolutely standard practise in effective dog training to reward every success, and as it becomes more polished to drop back to random rewards... All supported by tome upon tome of research.
    Most dogs like praise, most dogs like petting, most dogs LOVE tasty food treats, so it's a no-brainer not to use treats on a continuous basis to get behaviours established. Remember, praise and petting are secondary rewards (dog has to learn to like them), whereas food is a primary reward (dog does not have to learn to like eating)... With young, inexperienced pups, primary rewards trump secondary rewards every single time. Using continuous primary reinforcement for training new stuff is by far the most successful approach.


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    #18
    tk123
    Registered Users Posts: 14,024 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    Rifter wrote: »
    i only leave his food with him for 20 minutes) and

    Why do you need to leave the food down for 20 mins?! :confused:I had a slow bowl for Lucy to make it last longer than 20 seconds but 20 mins for a small pup sized meal seems way too long.

    If he was going out and coming back into the food like that I would gone with the flow - excuse the pun ;) - and just taken the food out with him... You've now learnt that he doesn't want to leave the food even if he's bursting*..and that he's possibly going to want to go out the second he's eaten.

    (*I hope you're not taking it away/messing with it when he's eating and training him to guard it(!)


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    #19
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    tk123 wrote: »
    Why do you need to leave the food down for 20 mins?! :confused:I had a slow bowl for Lucy to make it last longer than 20 seconds but 20 mins for a small pup sized meal seems way too long.

    He gets fed 4 times a day, each meal is a split based off the reccommendation on the bag for his given weight. I leave it there for 20 minutes but he has it gone in 10.(usually)
    tk123 wrote: »
    (*I hope you're not taking it away/messing with it when he's eating and training him to guard it(!)

    God no, he has 20 minutes to eat, the bowl is there for 20 minutes, if I have to take him outside in the middle of a meal ill just add on the time when I get back inside


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    #20
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    DBB wrote: »
    Have I got this right? He went to the door a couple of times whilst eating, and you responded, but no joy. Then he went to the door and you didn't respond in time, and he peed? Sorry op... If that's how it was, that was human error! You didn't get him out on time!
    Seriously... You've had him a fortnight, he's 14ish wks old... Give him some latitude here! Your expectations seem too high. Stuff like Sit, Down and Paw are easy to learn. Learning to discriminate that you want him to pee/poop outside, coupled with a watering down (pardon the pun) of the message with mistakes like above, is a much harder lesson to learn, particularly if the breeder didn't start the concept of inside vs outside from the outset.
    You say when he pooped outside this morning, you praised him and petted him. No treat? You also said you combine treat and/or praise... I think you're going to run into trouble unless you start using very tasty treats every single time until he gets the message. Only then should you think about randomising the food rewards. It is absolutely standard practise in effective dog training to reward every success, and as it becomes more polished to drop back to random rewards... All supported by tome upon tome of research.
    Most dogs like praise, most dogs like petting, most dogs LOVE tasty food treats, so it's a no-brainer not to use treats on a continuous basis to get behaviours established. Remember, praise and petting are secondary rewards (dog has to learn to like them), whereas food is a primary reward (dog does not have to learn to like eating)... With young, inexperienced pups, primary rewards trump secondary rewards every single time. Using continuous primary reinforcement for training new stuff is by far the most successful approach.

    I have changed to just using treats as his reward for toileting.

    I appreciate I didnt make it on time but Usain Bolt wasn't making it out the back with him he'd gone on the floor that quickly :)


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    #21
    Choc Chip
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Choc Chip


    tk123 wrote: »

    If he was going out and coming back into the food like that I would gone with the flow - excuse the pun ;) - and just taken the food out with him... You've now learnt that he doesn't want to leave the food even if he's bursting*..and that he's possibly going to want to go out the second he's eaten.

    It never would have occurred to me to take the bowl out with me! :o


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    #22
    DBB
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,727 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    Rifter wrote: »
    I have changed to just using treats as his reward for toileting.

    I appreciate I didnt make it on time but Usain Bolt wasn't making it out the back with him he'd gone on the floor that quickly :)

    In that case, make sure you're ready for him next time something similar happens :)
    Also, maybe you are already, but do make sure to use real jackpot treats for the first couple of weeks... Bits of chicken, ham, cheese, salami... Something that absolutely rocks his world :)


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    #23
    Rifter
    Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭Rifter


    Choc Chip wrote: »
    It never would have occurred to me to take the bowl out with me! :o

    Nor me to be honest.... clearly


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