N3 - Clonee to M50

marno21 · 10-08-2017 9:51pm #1

This is a plan to redesign and upgrade J2 on the N3 in Dublin:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/01/15/massive-blanchardstown-road-interchange-upgrade-mixes-cycling-and-walking/

Tender for ground investigation from Fingal County Council was put out yesterday.

Slippin Jimmy · 10-08-2017 9:57pm

Probably one of the worst junctions in Dublin. I'm glad to see that there are going to be changes made.

L1011 · 10-08-2017 9:58pm

I'm not sure what they can do here beyond provide more space for queueing cars (and the ped/cycling improvements) - the interchange is compromised forever by the number of roads approaching it on the Blanchardstown side.

Middle Man · 11-08-2017 9:23am

Indeed - I got my information on the scheme from the same source and as usual, the cyclists are whinging.

BelfastVanMan · 11-08-2017 10:07am

Middle Man wrote: »

Indeed - I got my information on the scheme from the same source and as usual, the cyclists are whinging.

Quite why cyclist want to cycle along this stretch of road is beyond me.

Sam Russell · 11-08-2017 12:41pm

Middle Man wrote: »

Indeed - I got my information on the scheme from the same source and as usual, the cyclists are whinging.

Mod: @ Middle Man: Can you stop the constant carping about cyclists!

Many motorist are cyclists, and also pedestrians. The modal shift from cars to bikes and buses will make life easier for all if it reduces congestion - so be glad of it.

If you look at the above tweet and perhaps understand why cyclists may have a case against motorists who appear to think they can drive down a cycle path.

Sam Russell · 11-08-2017 1:41pm

Mod: I have deleted off topic posts. Please keep to the N3 and the Snugborough Interchange Upgrade.

roadmaster · 12-08-2017 4:21pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not sure what they can do here beyond provide more space for queueing cars (and the ped/cycling improvements) - the interchange is compromised forever by the number of roads approaching it on the Blanchardstown side.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I sat on the N3 off ramp yesterday evening wondering how a extra bridge would help things but it's along time since I did road design maybe they will have a good plan. Due to the sheer volume of traffic I just can't see anything making a difference .would it maybe better to throw the towel in instead and forget the project. Maybe put the money to a some other project instead ?

spacetweek · 12-08-2017 5:52pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I sat on the N3 off ramp yesterday evening wondering how a extra bridge would help things but it's along time since I did road design maybe they will have a good plan. Due to the sheer volume of traffic I just can't see anything making a difference .would it maybe better to throw the towel in instead and forget the project. Maybe put the money to a some other project instead ?

It's not the only project needed along here - the N3 mainline needs 6 lanes too.
The only thing for this junction if the current upgrade doesn't work is to look at trying to reroute away some of the roads that converge on it, or add new entrance and exit slips for them or something.

At least the pedestrian and cyclist facilities will be improved.

roadmaster · 12-08-2017 10:17pm

Would there be room to put in 2 extra lanes there? I would of thought it would be a bit tight with the existing bridges

spacetweek · 13-08-2017 3:02pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Would there be room to put in 2 extra lanes there? I would of thought it would be a bit tight with the existing bridges

Plenty of space - design standard back then was to have a very wide median.

roadmaster · 14-08-2017 3:49pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Plenty of space - design standard back then was to have a very wide median.

I stand corrected, drove the N3 today and like you say there is room. It might be a bit tight under the mulhudert interchange but you would get the lanes in, if the need ever arised you could pull 3 lanes to navan easy enough. Is there anything on the books officially for extra lanes from clonee to the M50?

ThisRegard · 14-08-2017 3:56pm

You couldn't get the extra lanes in at the bridge over the Blakestown Road without reenginerring or rebuilding the existing bridge which is just about wide enough for 2 lanes on each side of it.

roadmaster · 14-08-2017 4:50pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

You couldn't get the extra lanes in at the bridge over the Blakestown Road without reenginerring or rebuilding the existing bridge which is just about wide enough for 2 lanes on each side of it.

Is that the underpass that brings you in to Mulhudert Village?

marno21 · 14-08-2017 5:10pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I stand corrected, drove the N3 today and like you say there is room. It might be a bit tight under the mulhudert interchange but you would get the lanes in, if the need ever arised you could pull 3 lanes to navan easy enough. Is there anything on the books officially for extra lanes from clonee to the M50?

Yes, there's a feasibility study ongoing for a widening/possible motorway upgrade from Clonee to M50

ThisRegard · 15-08-2017 9:38am

roadmaster wrote: »

Is that the underpass that brings you in to Mulhudert Village?

Yeah, that's the one. There's also a similar one over the road to Blanchardstown Hospital from Blanchardstown Village, but I think that one is wider.

Kermit.de.frog · 03-11-2018 5:24am

Upgrading N3/M50 to motorway could be a problem with the bus lane on the N3?

spacetweek · 03-11-2018 9:42pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Upgrading N3/M50 to motorway could be a problem with the bus lane on the N3?

You can have bus lanes on motorways , but the bus won't be able to stop there.

BelfastVanMan · 04-11-2018 12:08pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Upgrading N3/M50 to motorway could be a problem with the bus lane on the N3?

You can have bus lanes on motorways , but the bus won't be able to stop there.

Indeed; in NI, they're currently putting bus lanes on both the M1 and M2 approaching Belfast.

highdef · 06-11-2018 5:25pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Indeed; in NI, they're currently putting bus lanes on both the M1 and M2 approaching Belfast.

Would it not cause traffic issues and congestion having buses limited to 65km/h travelling on a road with a limit of 120km/h? From experience, out of service Dublin Bus buses travelling on the M4 to/from Maynooth to Dublin cause some disruption to traffic as faster moving vehicles often don't realise how slow the buses are travelling and end up stuck behind said buses because they didn't overtake in time. Quite often a queue will develop behind the bus as the vehicles are unable to get up to speed quick enough to safely overtake as cars in lane 2 are going around double the speed.

The buses presence on the motorway is completely legal however I'm just discussing the increased level of congestion and associated decrease in safety as a result.

BelfastVanMan · 06-11-2018 6:01pm

Well, it's a 70mph limit there, and the buses travel at 50mph, and the last few miles of the M1 near Belfast has a variable speed limit, so in fairness, it should work ok....on paper.

I agree with you that it's going to cause issues, however.

BelfastVanMan · 06-11-2018 6:37pm

Anyway, sorry for going off topic, folks. :-)

highdef · 06-11-2018 8:04pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Anyway, sorry for going off topic, folks. :-)

You're grand but there's a big difference between 80km/h (50mph) and 65km/h, in terms of motorway driving.

Sam Russell · 06-11-2018 9:14pm

Surely regular buses on the motorway would be in a bus lane that would replace the hard shoulder.

BelfastVanMan · 06-11-2018 9:46pm

That's exactly the case, yes.

Sam Russell · 06-11-2018 9:53pm

Then the bus lane would have to be restricted to the maximum speed of the buses - so coaches or taxis keep out of it except for congested periods.

Maybe even keep them out anyway.

roadmaster · 07-11-2018 3:52pm

To keep a bus lane would be possible to put in 5 lanes 3 for dual, 1 for bus and 1 for breakdown by digging all the embankments right back to give extra room and build big retaining walls to keep the ground in place or would this just cost to much money to make it a viable project ?

BelfastVanMan · 07-11-2018 3:54pm

Yes, and probably, in that order, I fear.
:-(

riddlinrussell · 07-11-2018 4:11pm

roadmaster wrote: »

To keep a bus lane would be possible to put in 5 lanes 3 for dual, 1 for bus and 1 for breakdown by digging all the embankments right back to give extra room and build big retaining walls to keep the ground in place or would this just cost to much money to make it a viable project ?

Northern M1/M2 bus lanes are just taking the place of the breakdown lane, growing consensus among road planners is that full breakdown lanes are less important than they were in previous decades as cars are far less prone to breakdown. Periodic "breakdown bays" as seen in a number of European countries seems to be a potential solution.

spacetweek · 07-11-2018 9:03pm

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Yes, and probably, in that order, I fear.
:-(

Are taxis allowed to drive in bus lanes in NI?

riddlinrussell · 07-11-2018 9:53pm

spacetweek wrote: »

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Yes, and probably, in that order, I fear.
:-(

Are taxis allowed to drive in bus lanes in NI?

No, they've been lobbying hard for it but only buses, and disabled accessible taxis allowed. And bicycles, but obviously not on a motorway.

marno21 · 09-11-2018 9:33pm

MOD: I have renamed this thread to encompass all works planned on the N3 between Clonee and the M50, which is being progressed now to design & planning as part of the National Development Plan

marno21 · 05-07-2019 3:08am

The N3 Snugborough Interchange upgrade has now gone to tender

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=149873&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

annfield1978 · 06-01-2020 12:55pm

marno21 wrote: »

The N3 Snugborough Interchange upgrade has now gone to tender

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=149873&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Any award on this?

Is this upgrade of the junction the same project as mentioned in the NDP?

roadmaster · 06-01-2020 5:20pm

marno21 wrote: »

The N3 Snugborough Interchange upgrade has now gone to tender

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=149873&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

The Fun when that starts the traffic will be back to butllersbridge!

marno21 · 10-02-2021 8:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

The N3 Snugborough Interchange upgrade has now gone to tender

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=149873&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/149874/0/1?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Awarded to BAM. €13.94m

spacetweek · 10-02-2021 9:31pm

An entire year delay there. I wonder if Ryan procrastinated on purpose.

SeanW · 10-02-2021 11:49pm

Will/can any of the N3 be redesignated to motorway as a result of these works?

roadmaster · 11-02-2021 10:38am

SeanW wrote: »

Will/can any of the N3 be redesignated to motorway as a result of these works?

I think there is too many exits to close together in that area for that to happen

spacetweek · 13-02-2021 12:29am

roadmaster wrote: »

I think there is too many exits to close together in that area for that to happen

Not a dealbreaker - and some left-in-left-out exits are due to be closed.

Pete_Cavan · 03-06-2021 12:27pm

Consultation on Emerging Preferred Option now open;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/n3-m50-clonee-non-statutory-public-consultation-scheme-update-emerging-preferred-option

Following the Stage 2 Assessment, DS2 Central Median Widening was selected as the Emerging Preferred Option. The existing wide central median will be minimised to form an additional running lane in each direction. Improvements are planned to the Inbound Bus Lane as a complementary measure alongside the DS2 Central Median Widening option.

I can see a logic in an additional outbound lane, but an additional inbound lane is not going to achieve anything. You can widen the wide end of the funnel as much as you want but if the narrow end stays the same, things aren't getting through it any faster.

The bus lane is clearly an afterthought thrown in to pacify. If anything, the bus lane should be added to the median to give buses a good run without having to deal with traffic joining/exiting at junctions.

cgcsb · 04-06-2021 1:40pm

Can't believe this is a serious project. So When the extra traffic gets to Dublin it'll meet a bus only road at old cabra road and have to go to Phibsboro where there'll surely be new anti car measures in the coming months. Seems a ridiculous waste. Should just add new bus lanes.

Peregrine · 04-06-2021 2:24pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Consultation on Emerging Preferred Option now open;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/n3-m50-clonee-non-statutory-public-consultation-scheme-update-emerging-preferred-option

I can see a logic in an additional outbound lane, but an additional inbound lane is not going to achieve anything. You can widen the wide end of the funnel as much as you want but if the narrow end stays the same, things aren't getting through it any faster.

The bus lane is clearly an afterthought thrown in to pacify. If anything, the bus lane should be added to the median to give buses a good run without having to deal with traffic joining/exiting at junctions.

That is so bad. I don't even know what to say.

spacetweek · 04-06-2021 11:00pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I can see a logic in an additional outbound lane, but an additional inbound lane is not going to achieve anything. You can widen the wide end of the funnel as much as you want but if the narrow end stays the same, things aren't getting through it any faster.

If a large amount of the inbound traffic exits onto the M50, it mightn't matter that the N3 is much narrower as you get closer to the city centre.

ongarboy · 05-06-2021 12:06am

spacetweek wrote: »

If a large amount of the inbound traffic exits onto the M50, it mightn't matter that the N3 is much narrower as you get closer to the city centre.

Agreed. The few times I had to drive to work pre covid, it would be bumper to bumper from Clonee junction to M50 where most traffic split off to join M50 North or south lanes and remaining city bound
traffic flowed relatively freely from M50 junction to Halfway House roundabout. Yes, gridlock resumed from there into the city and will regardless but an extra lane inbound for the section proposed in this thread would definitely make a positive difference for the section in question. I don't understand why some here seem to think that partial but significant improvement is a waste. It would be like Kerry bound motorists giving out that the Naas bypass is a waste because you still get stuck in Adare.

Pete_Cavan · 05-06-2021 6:38am

ongarboy wrote: »

Agreed. The few times I had to drive to work pre covid, it would be bumper to bumper from Clonee junction to M50 where most traffic split off to join M50 North or south lanes and remaining city bound
traffic flowed relatively freely from M50 junction to Halfway House roundabout. Yes, gridlock resumed from there into the city and will regardless but an extra lane inbound for the section proposed in this thread would definitely make a positive difference for the section in question. I don't understand why some here seem to think that partial but significant improvement is a waste. It would be like Kerry bound motorists giving out that the Naas bypass is a waste because you still get stuck in Adare.

It's nothing like like Kerry bound motorists giving out that the Naas bypass is a waste because you still get stuck in Adare. Kerry bound from Dublin you have most of the motorway network in front of you with 150km of motorway before you hit the roadblock that is Adare. That is in no way comparable to driving east from Clonee.

Approaching Dublin city is always going to be congested, the city just can't accommodate all the cars we pour into it every day. The problem is we are throwing more and more money at accommodating cars in the hope that some day we might solve the congestion problems. Look at the major job that was done at J6, it of course is great but now they want to widen west of it. Attracting more cars is only going to undermine the investment into J6 as it will eventually become a congested mess again. Doing the same on the N4 and N11 is going to flood the M50 and make it more difficult to join from all junctions.

cgcsb · 05-06-2021 8:50am

ongarboy wrote: »

Agreed. The few times I had to drive to work pre covid, it would be bumper to bumper from Clonee junction to M50 where most traffic split off to join M50 North or south lanes and remaining city bound
traffic flowed relatively freely from M50 junction to Halfway House roundabout. Yes, gridlock resumed from there into the city and will regardless but an extra lane inbound for the section proposed in this thread would definitely make a positive difference for the section in question. I don't understand why some here seem to think that partial but significant improvement is a waste. It would be like Kerry bound motorists giving out that the Naas bypass is a waste because you still get stuck in Adare.

Except the kerry to Dublin driver would only rarely make this journey the clonee road is being built to accommodate daily car commuting. Something which we're supposed to be reducing. The same money could build a comprehensive and complete cycle network across D15 and produce a better outcome.

Even better a new public transport walking and cycling bridge from castleknock golf course to liffey valley would slash congestion on the M50. At the moment North South journeys in West Dublin are only possible by car on the westlink and folks wonder why the M50 is congested

CatInABox · 15-06-2021 6:29pm

The NTA are not supportive of this project, taking a wait and see approach. They're saying that the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy will be updated next year, and that it will likely contain further measures to reduce emissions.

https://twitter.com/__kbaker__/status/1404829005631705100/

EDIT: This guys twitter handle must break Boards twitter embed function, but it's at that link

Peregrine · 15-06-2021 6:36pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The NTA are not supportive of this project, taking a wait and see approach. They're saying that the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy will be updated next year, and that it will likely contain further measures to reduce emissions.

https://twitter.com/__kbaker__/status/1404829005631705100/

Finally. Some sense. This conversation should have happened before spending millions on consultants to design the project.

It's also worth reviewing if it's wise to have a state agency dedicated to increasing car usage when every other arm of the government is doing the opposite. Merge TII and the NTA.

Pete_Cavan · 24-06-2021 9:13pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Consultation on Emerging Preferred Option now open;

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/n3-m50-clonee-non-statutory-public-consultation-scheme-update-emerging-preferred-option

I can see a logic in an additional outbound lane, but an additional inbound lane is not going to achieve anything. You can widen the wide end of the funnel as much as you want but if the narrow end stays the same, things aren't getting through it any faster.

The bus lane is clearly an afterthought thrown in to pacify. If anything, the bus lane should be added to the median to give buses a good run without having to deal with traffic joining/exiting at junctions.

The consultation is now closed. From a quick look at some of the submissions, most seem to be opposed to the project on environmental grounds and/or for similar reasons to that which I stated above.

My favour comment in a submission is definately; "Adding more lanes to ease traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity".

Aontachtoir · 27-06-2021 6:00pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

My favour comment in a submission is definately; "Adding more lanes to ease traffic congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity".

Those kids and their funny memes.

Of course, the response to that could include "tightening your belt doesn't cure obesity, it just hurts you and ruins the belt" or "if a person at the age of 25 can't fit into the same clothes they wore when they were 5, that doesn't mean they're obese."

Growing cities need growing infrastructure. Hopefully there will be an objective, non-ideological review of this project, which will ultimately lead to a combination of improved PT and improved road capacity.

N3 - Clonee to M50

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