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How long before Irish reunification?

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Comments

  • #5302
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    10-15 years
    How does unionism sell remaining in the union to the people of NI in a referendum scenario?

    Cos as things stand they’re very much on a weak back foot looking at it from here

    Worst performing NHS in the Uk massive unemployment and completely reliant on hand outs

    That’s just a few of the problems.

    What are the upsides?


  • #5303
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Runaways wrote: »
    How does unionism sell remaining in the union to the people of NI in a referendum scenario?

    Cos as things stand they’re very much on a weak back foot looking at it from here

    Worst performing NHS in the Uk massive unemployment and completely reliant on hand outs

    That’s just a few of the problems.

    What are the upsides?

    Flags and cheap* doctors' visits apparently.


  • #5304
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    Runaways wrote: »
    How does unionism sell remaining in the union to the people of NI in a referendum scenario?

    Cos as things stand they’re very much on a weak back foot looking at it from here

    Worst performing NHS in the Uk massive unemployment and completely reliant on hand outs

    That’s just a few of the problems.

    What are the upsides?

    Other than a natural desire to be one country, how do you sell it to people in southern Ireland to subsidise the north ?


  • #5305
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    Other than a natural desire to be one country, how do you sell it to people in southern Ireland to subsidise the north ?

    Subsidise the North?

    The same way that Dublin and Cork subsidise the rest of the country perhaps?

    That's how economics work silly puppy.


  • #5306
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Subsidise the North?

    The same way that Dublin and Cork subsidise the rest of the country perhaps?

    That's how economics work silly puppy.

    no need for name calling, we are not discussing having a vote on splitting the rest of the country, people accept the way things are but would need an incentive to accept over one and half million more people to subsidize


  • #5307
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    10-15 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    Other than a natural desire to be one country, how do you sell it to people in southern Ireland to subsidise the north ?

    All available evidence says it would be a massive boost for an all island economy and would see the north thrive finally getting the investment and employment it so badly needs. And it would not be the south subsidizing the north, we’d be one country so...
    Good example is cork. It’s in the top 3 richest regions in all Europe. Down to the likes of Apple and Pfizer being there. NI has the basic framework to take on similar incoming investment but as it stands outside the EU it’s never going to get that ever unless in a UI


  • #5308
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    no need for name calling, we are not discussing having a vote on splitting the rest of the country, people accept the way things are but would need an incentive to accept over one and half million more people to subsidize

    You clearly don't understand what I wrote. Splitting the country? What?

    The incentive is reunification and the ending of an injustice. Simple as.

    It also creates a more balanced State with Belfast and its environs as a proper rival for investment to Dublin which will benefit the new State.


  • #5309
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Flags and cheap* doctors' visits apparently.

    Unionism makes a virtue out of economic failure and being a dependent.


  • #5310
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Unionism makes a virtue out of economic failure and being a dependent.

    Well, they do love the big house so they do.


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  • #5311
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    30-40 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    Other than a natural desire to be one country, how do you sell it to people in southern Ireland to subsidise the north ?

    subsidise? I dont think you get the general concept. a UI would be one country working as one. there wouldnt be two parts and no part would be subsidising the other.

    Whats REALLY needed is a nationwide discussion so people can discuss the reality of a UI, and not this silly talk of one the south taking over the north and paying its bills.


  • #5312
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Well, they do love the big house so they do.

    What I mean is, they will point to the handout/subsistence as a 'benefit' of being in the UK.

    It's pretty sad and pathetic. A soul destroyed people.


  • #5313
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    10-15 years
    Just right now announced our economy is fastest growing in Europe again. 5% on last years.

    Strip away the multinational input and it’s 3%. Thats homegrown industry.

    Wonder how NI stats currently look


  • #5314
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Just read some of the posts on this page again.
    Patronising, nasty prejudice against anything unionist. I can’t wait to join youR new Ireland lol
    If ni is this terrible place why is everyone not moving to the beautiful panacea of Roi You guys are so lucky lol


  • #5315
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    10-15 years
    downcow wrote: »
    Just read some of the posts on this page again.
    Patronising, nasty prejudice against anything unionist. I can’t wait to join youR new Ireland lol
    If ni is this terrible place why is everyone not moving to the beautiful panacea of Roi You guys are so lucky lol

    Victim complex won’t get you anywhere DC. Nobody here did patronising or nasty. Please point it out. 11% of the population are immigrants. So people are moving here.
    Stop railing against the tide and start engaging in reality or at least discussion. Nobody’s out to get you. Honestly


  • #5316
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Just on bbc now. Poll shows Alliance party voters aspirations have jumped sharply in favour of the union(uk) Now 70:30 in favour of staying in uk.

    That doesn’t fit with some of the fantasy be expressed on here


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  • #5317
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    They have now just said all voters all parties except don’t know 75% are pro union They are saying the many pro union are the most liberal in society and aren’t voting for current unionist parties. But they say any referendum on UI will bring those voters out. So bring it on If you wish. and put this to bed for a generation

    And those on here who say staying in uk is not being well sold Maybe you should look at your own house cause very few seem to want out of uk.


  • #5318
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    It’s a substantial university of Liverpool study


  • #5319
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    You clearly don't understand what I wrote. Splitting the country? What?

    The incentive is reunification and the ending of an injustice. Simple as.

    It also creates a more balanced State with Belfast and its environs as a proper rival for investment to Dublin which will benefit the new State.

    How much are you willing to personally pay per month for a UI? And how long would you be willing to pay that?


  • #5320
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    How much are you willing to personally pay per month for a UI? And how long would you be willing to pay that?

    A bajillion euro. And forever.

    What is an acceptable answer?

    The national exchequer isn't my personal account that I can decide where my portion goes or doesn't go.

    It's mind-blowing that this is still a question that crops up from time to time.


  • #5321
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    maccored wrote: »
    subsidise? I dont think you get the general concept. a UI would be one country working as one. there wouldnt be two parts and no part would be subsidising the other.

    Whats REALLY needed is a nationwide discussion so people can discuss the reality of a UI, and not this silly talk of one the south taking over the north and paying its bills.

    that's not the way most people in the South will see it though.

    What happens to the large majority of people in Northern Ireland in the public service? They won't all be employed in the public service in the republic.
    Do they go on the dole? The dole that is a lot higher in the republic.


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  • #5322
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    You clearly don't understand what I wrote. Splitting the country? What?

    The incentive is reunification and the ending of an injustice. Simple as.

    It also creates a more balanced State with Belfast and its environs as a proper rival for investment to Dublin which will benefit the new State.

    I don't know whether I am for or against, I don't think the point you made there would encourage people from Dublin to be in favour of it


  • #5323
    Sinbad_NI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    Runaways wrote: »
    How does unionism sell remaining in the union to the people of NI in a referendum scenario?

    Cos as things stand they’re very much on a weak back foot looking at it from here

    Worst performing NHS in the Uk massive unemployment and completely reliant on hand outs

    That’s just a few of the problems.

    What are the upsides?

    NHS waiting lists in NI are just insane at present. Something our government here and Westminster really need to get on top off. Maybe the new tunnel will allow us to get a faster check up in Stranraer!

    Massive unemployment... This is from 1 month ago. NI 2.4%... ROI 4.8%.

    https://www.irishnews.com/business/2020/02/19/news/northern-ireland-ends-2019-with-near-record-low-unemployment-rate-despite-spike-in-redundancies-1846092/

    In my experience in my local region, the only people not working are those that can't, or more usually, won't.


  • #5324
    Sinbad_NI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    bubblypop wrote: »
    that's not the way most people in the South will see it though.

    What happens to the large majority of people in Northern Ireland in the public service? They won't all be employed in the public service in the republic.
    Do they go on the dole? The dole that is a lot higher in the republic.

    Think we're at something like 30% of jobs in the public service.
    What way do you think these people will vote when they hear there's potential for a decent lump of them to likely be out of a job?


  • #5325
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Sinbad_NI wrote: »
    Think we're at something like 30% of jobs in the public service.
    What way do you think these people will vote when they hear there's potential for a decent lump of them to likely be out of a job?

    There won't be mass layoffs. It will all be done through natural wastage and redeployment. It won't be a major factor. Plus there's areas, like law enforcement where the South needs numbers to rise, so the addition of PSNI officers will be a boon.

    Honestly, the public sector numbers aren't going to be an issue in the early days anyway, there will be a substantial uptick in requirements for admin staff to coordinate the merger.


  • #5326
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    I don't know whether I am for or against, I don't think the point you made there would encourage people from Dublin to be in favour of it

    What point was it?

    Honestly, those who are so anti unification really need to get together and come up with a coordinated effort to sell the status quo on both sides of the border.

    It's not for the rest of us to bat for all potential scenarios.


  • #5327
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Oh No...Unionism rethoricing themselves into a cul de sac again. Will they never learn from history?
    https://twitter.com/newsoncool/status/1235909630343155717


  • #5328
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    downcow wrote: »
    They have now just said all voters all parties except don’t know 75% are pro union They are saying the many pro union are the most liberal in society and aren’t voting for current unionist parties. But they say any referendum on UI will bring those voters out. So bring it on If you wish. and put this to bed for a generation

    And those on here who say staying in uk is not being well sold Maybe you should look at your own house cause very few seem to want out of uk.

    Looks like you've nothing to worry about so.

    Funny how the alliance party are in favour of engaging in a potential citizens assembly now. What do you think of that?


  • #5329
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Oh No...Unionism rethoricing themselves into a cul de sac again. Will they never learn from history?
    https://twitter.com/newsoncool/status/1235909630343155717

    Well, the mask slipped during the GE. The UUP are now finished. Why would you be bothered as a moderate unionist now voting for them?

    I'd love to see Nesbitt resign and join the Alliance.


  • #5330
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    There won't be mass layoffs. It will all be done through natural wastage and redeployment. It won't be a major factor. Plus there's areas, like law enforcement where the South needs numbers to rise, so the addition of PSNI officers will be a boon.

    Honestly, the public sector numbers aren't going to be an issue in the early days anyway, there will be a substantial uptick in requirements for admin staff to coordinate the merger.

    are you suggesting members of the PSNI would just join up to AGS?


  • #5331
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    bubblypop wrote: »
    are you suggesting members of the PSNI would just join up to AGS?

    Are you suggesting there would be competing police forces in a unitary state?


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  • #5332
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Are you suggesting there would be competing police forces in a unitary state?

    no.
    what do you suggest?


  • #5333
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    30-40 years
    bubblypop wrote: »
    that's not the way most people in the South will see it though.

    What happens to the large majority of people in Northern Ireland in the public service? They won't all be employed in the public service in the republic.
    Do they go on the dole? The dole that is a lot higher in the republic.

    we need to DISCUSS THIS as a nation first and figure out those kinds of issues. personally, I would vouch that anyone employed in the public service that couldnt get a job in whatever new all Ireland public service there is, gets redundancy from their employer (the british government)


  • #5334
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    30-40 years
    bubblypop wrote: »
    are you suggesting members of the PSNI would just join up to AGS?

    there wouldnt be the PSNI or the AGS - there'd be a new police force altogether


  • #5335
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    bubblypop wrote: »
    are you suggesting members of the PSNI would just join up to AGS?

    I'd suggest that the AGS and PSNI do as they are instructed by whatever government is elected.


  • #5336
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    What point was it?

    Honestly, those who are so anti unification really need to get together and come up with a coordinated effort to sell the status quo on both sides of the border.

    It's not for the rest of us to bat for all potential scenarios.

    that Dublin would have a proper rival for investment in belfast, are you for or against unification, because Dublin with a similar population as northern Ireland might prefer not to have a proper rival for investment


  • #5337
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    maccored wrote: »
    there wouldnt be the PSNI or the AGS - there'd be a new police force altogether

    Would the unification of the island mean that Northern Ireland would become part of the Republic?
    An Garda Siochana are the police force in the republic. so, if any of the PSNI actually wanted to, they would have to join AGS.


  • #5338
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    A bajillion euro. And forever.

    What is an acceptable answer?

    The national exchequer isn't my personal account that I can decide where my portion goes or doesn't go.

    It's mind-blowing that this is still a question that crops up from time to time.

    Sorry I obviously wasn't clear in what I was asking. Would you be happy to see an increase on your income tax to fund unification? If yes, how much?
    Temporarily or permanently?


  • #5339
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    30-40 years
    NI is an English dependency and that's one of the reasons why I believe the first border poll would be a relatively easy 'win' for unionists. Non-unionists in the civil service and dependent on the NHS would probably not bother voting for a UI.

    The first border poll kicks off the 'match' but if there's a loss for a UI the match remains at 0 - 0. A united Ireland only requires that those in favour of a UI to score once and then the match is over. It doesn't matter if a border poll doesn't return a pro-UI vote the first time.

    Meanwhile the so-called 'union' depends on how happy England is keeping the people of the north and particularly people of non-unionist heritage who will decide when the time is right. Sure that's grand like.


  • #5340
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    15-20 years
    Sinbad_NI wrote: »
    I'm not arguing about legitimacy. GFA had sorted that question for us all.

    I'm talking about how it could affect everyone, myself included, when there's a decent chunk more outgoings than today.
    Wages in the private sector will not follow overnight.

    It's true that wages in the private sector will not follow over night but one must think beyond the short term. Indeed one must think of the next generation and generations to come.


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  • #5341
    Lord Fairlord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭Lord Fairlord


    15-20 years
    downcow wrote: »
    ....and vice versa from the republicans lol. Lesson is that the decision by the extreme s won’t be based on economics. Centre ground could be more interesting. Certainly polls currently would suggest centre ground feel they are better off in uk.
    You see your other problem Tom/Francie/etc is that you need an amazing amount of blue water because the old ‘devil you know’ will be the next factor you have to address should you ever be able to make any case for UI. But that’s down the road a few generations.

    That's a fair point. What I would say to those in the centre to whom economics is important; Northern Ireland has been getting subsidised since the 1930s - economically the North, divided artificially from the rest of this island and remote from the rest of the UK, is unviable.


  • #5342
    Runaways
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Runaways


    10-15 years
    Just listening to the latest Irish times inside politics podcast and they have Newton Emerson on

    It’s comical.

    He’s trying to explain how the DUP are now bare faced and blatantly trying to sell what is the backstop / feet in both markets / best for NI
    When we all know they were violently against it to begin with and to end with.

    But faced with the border in the sea their precious connection to the union is now threatened they see the sense in ‘mays deal’


    Oh dear. Who votes for these clowns. Who keeps voting for them

    Oh..wait


  • #5343
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Would the unification of the island mean that Northern Ireland would become part of the Republic?
    An Garda Siochana are the police force in the republic. so, if any of the PSNI actually wanted to, they would have to join AGS.

    If you're unsure to the answer of your first question I think you should head off and read up about the politics of this island and maybe the history of how we got to where we are today.

    Mind-blowing that you've continued in the thread and then ask such a question.


  • #5344
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Widdensushi wrote: »
    that Dublin would have a proper rival for investment in belfast, are you for or against unification, because Dublin with a similar population as northern Ireland might prefer not to have a proper rival for investment

    Again, I don't think you understand how economics works in a country.

    Ireland is desperate for a counterbalance to Dublin's primacy and omnipotence.

    Personally, in the absence of reunification I would be all for a Cork and Limerick focussed programme to help out the fact that Dublin is seizing up.

    In the event of reunification the ready-made counterbalance of Belfast and its environs will be most welcome.


  • #5345
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    20-30 years
    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Sorry I obviously wasn't clear in what I was asking. Would you be happy to see an increase on your income tax to fund unification? If yes, how much?
    Temporarily or permanently?

    Sure. No idea. Yes.


  • #5346
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    If you're unsure to the answer of your first question I think you should head off and read up about the politics of this island and maybe the history of how we got to wear we are today.

    Mind-blowing that you've continued in the thread and then ask such a question.

    I don't get your point about bubblypops question. I actually don't know the obvious answer you are hinting at. But this is one of the classic cultural differences in unionists and nationalist on this island. Unionists want accuracy and nothing left to chance. nationalists seem happy with fudges and and then complain after till they get their way to what was their understanding in the fudge - Irish language in gfa is an example


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  • #5347
    Sinbad_NI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Sinbad_NI


    maccored wrote: »
    we need to DISCUSS THIS as a nation first and figure out those kinds of issues. personally, I would vouch that anyone employed in the public service that couldnt get a job in whatever new all Ireland public service there is, gets redundancy from their employer (the british government)

    I’m sure they’d be offered jobs elsewhere in UK but I seriously doubt they (Westminster) would consider a redundancy package. Good luck getting that over the line.

    Pensions would be protected obviously.


  • #5348
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Sure. No idea. Yes.

    LOL you have no idea how much you would be prepared to pay for a UI - yet you are proposing one LOL


  • #5349
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    downcow wrote: »
    Unionists want accuracy and nothing left to chance.

    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    'Here, let's vote to leave the EU, we have it all sussed, what could go wrong?'


  • #5350
    Widdensushi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,298 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Again, I don't think you understand how economics works in a country.

    Ireland is desperate for a counterbalance to Dublin's primacy and omnipotence.

    Personally, in the absence of reunification I would be all for a Cork and Limerick focussed programme to help out the fact that Dublin is seizing up.

    In the event of reunification the ready-made counterbalance of Belfast and its environs will be most welcome.

    For this to happen both sides of the border have to be in favour.Lets just ignore the northern result a while. For many people the fact that they could be less well off will be irrelevant. There will be for and against regardless of the consequences to their own standards of living. The deciding vote will be decided how it will affect individuals and their families. Your suggestion seems to be that the people of cork and limerick should rally against Dublin so Belfast can take some of their investment ?


  • #5351
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    10-15 years
    maccored wrote: »
    we need to DISCUSS THIS as a nation first and figure out those kinds of issues. personally, I would vouch that anyone employed in the public service that couldnt get a job in whatever new all Ireland public service there is, gets redundancy from their employer (the british government)

    So you`re saying Ireland may make people redundant in a UI and Britain should pay for it-I can`t see that getting off the ground tbh.


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