Trying to determine the religion of my mums great-grandmother - What to do next?

SharpshooterTom · 15-06-2021 4:17pm #1

I am trying to determine the religion of one my mothers great-grandparents (my great-great grandmother). My mothers family has always assumed they are fully Northern Irish catholic with no known protestant ancestry. In the 1901/1911 censuses my two great-great-grandparents are listed as Patrick and Sarah Slavin (mispelt Slevin in the latter) from Aughnacloy Co.Tyrone, my great grandfather (mums grandad) is Joseph Slavin listed here aged 10 and 20 in the two respective censuses.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aughancloy_Urban_Aughancloy_Town_in_17_files/Mill_Street/1724189/ (1901)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001182229/ (photo image)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aughnacloy_Urban/Mill_Street/854156/ (1911)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003412197/ (photo image)

Curiously though what struck my attention is that there is a daughter in the 1901 census who has a different surname and a different religion to the rest of the family, Jane Campbell, Church of Ireland.

I have marriage record from rootsireland.ie, although its worth noting the marriage is dated 1897, but on the 1911 census it says they've been married for 24 years at that point, not 14 (so possibly a typo from rootsireland.ie and should be 1887?):

Joseph Slavin's birth record (note it says illegitimate):

And Jane Campbells probable birth record (I say probable as its a good 10 miles away from Aughnacloy):

Neither of the fathers names aren't listed on the marriage certificate, but I did find a Sarah Jane Campbell born in Mill Street Aughnacloy (not sure if its her but its the same street and same town as listed in the 1901/1911 census):

But I am no closer to determining what Sarah Campbells religion is and Im not sure what my next steps should be. I could go to the PRONI building in Belfast and see if I can get any extra information. Similarly I could buy the marriage certificate from GRONI but it costs £15 and I only want to do it if I can get extra information (e.g. fathers names) and not just a replica of rootsirelands info. Any advice on what to do next or how I can solve this?

pinkypinky · 15-06-2021 6:39pm

A few thoughts:

First, don't presume Slevin is a mispelling. Spelling was more fluid in the past. Look under all variants of the name.

You can get all these civil records for free on www.irishgenealogy.ie - you don't need to pay GRONI. You definitely should look at the originals in case of any transcription errors. The civil marriage will show the father's names.

SharpshooterTom · 15-06-2021 8:49pm

Hi pinkypinky,

Thanks for responding. At first glance I can find both Sarah and Jane Campbells birth records and Joseph Slavin's birth record.

I cant find the marriage record however.

Slevin might not be a misspelling back then its just it is my mother maiden name. None of civil records on irishgenealogy.ie reveal anything new nor were there any mistakes.

pinkypinky · 15-06-2021 8:59pm

I would look for the birth of each child to compare the information on each record.

The name of the person who registered the birth in each instance may be a relative.

Mick Tator · 15-06-2021 9:06pm

Sarah Ajne Campbell. I wonder is that a mistranscription of Aíne- if so it is unlikely that a member of the CoI would use the Irish version of Ann. You really need to look at the original.

SharpshooterTom · 15-06-2021 9:10pm

Mick Tator wrote: »

Sarah Ajne Campbell. I wonder is that a mistranscription of Aíne- if so it is unlikely that a member of the CoI would use the Irish version of Ann. You really need to look at the original.

No it is Sarah Jane. I found the image here (last entry at the bottom)

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03452/2267308.pdf

tabbey · 15-06-2021 10:09pm

Mick Tator wrote: »

Sarah Ajne Campbell. I wonder is that a mistranscription of Aíne- if so it is unlikely that a member of the CoI would use the Irish version of Ann. You really need to look at the original.

Even in southern Irish records, civil or ecclesiastical, such gaelicised names were virtually unknown before the 1911 census.
It was mostly malcontents who adopted this method of expressing their extreme nationalism although some did it to frustrate the enumerator.
De Valera went half way on his census return, gaelicising his wife from Jane to Sinead, but leaving himself as Edward.

Earnest · 16-06-2021 11:01am

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I am trying to determine the religion of one my mothers great-grandparents (my great-great grandmother). My mothers family has always assumed they are fully Northern Irish catholic with no known protestant ancestry. In the 1901/1911 censuses my two great-great-grandparents are listed as Patrick and Sarah Slavin (mispelt Slevin in the latter) from Aughnacloy Co.Tyrone, my great grandfather (mums grandad) is Joseph Slavin listed here aged 10 and 20 in the two respective censuses.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aughancloy_Urban_Aughancloy_Town_in_17_files/Mill_Street/1724189/ (1901)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001182229/ (photo image)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aughnacloy_Urban/Mill_Street/854156/ (1911)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003412197/ (photo image)

Curiously though what struck my attention is that there is a daughter in the 1901 census who has a different surname and a different religion to the rest of the family, Jane Campbell, Church of Ireland.
...

Note that Jane's occupation is General Servant - Domestic. Domestic servants are usually live-in. Is it possible that Jane's description as "Daughter" is inaccurate, and that she was servant to this household and not a servant to a neighbour? Note that she has a different surname.

SharpshooterTom · 16-06-2021 11:33am

Earnest wrote: »

Note that Jane's occupation is General Servant - Domestic. Domestic servants are usually live-in. Is it possible that Jane's description as "Daughter" is inaccurate, and that she was servant to this household and not a servant to a neighbour? Note that she has a different surname.

Sarah Slavin (nee Campbell) is likely her mother, I have provided Jane Campbells possible civil birth record, she was an illegitimate child.

pinkypinky · 16-06-2021 12:46pm

You have a possible Jane Campbell birth record but there's not enough to say it is the same person.

SharpshooterTom · 16-06-2021 1:23pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

You have a possible Jane Campbell birth record but there's not enough to say it is the same person.

Sure but there is a Jane Campbell born to a mother called Sarah Campbell and an unknown father within 10 miles of where they were living at the time of the 1901 census.

Jane Campbell was also 15 at the time of the census and that birth certificate exactly matches that.

I can only go by process of elimination but the only other suitable Jane Campbells born in Tyrone between 1885 and 1890 were two in Cookstown, and one in between Omagh and Ballygawley.

Given she is listed as a "daughter" I assume there has to be a maternal/paternal link, and given she has the same surname as the mother I don't think that's an accident.

pinkypinky · 16-06-2021 2:06pm

I agree she is a good possibility, but people are not sure about ages in this time period and, in my professional experience, you cannot be certain. People often travelled further away to give birth illegitimately.

SharpshooterTom · 16-06-2021 2:49pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

I agree she is a good possibility, but people are not sure about ages in this time period and, in my professional experience, you cannot be certain. People often travelled further away to give birth illegitimately.

Well this the only lead I have that can explain why a 15 year Jane Campbell is in among the family on the census. If it's not her then I am at a dead end because there are no other leads to it.

But my main aim here is to find the religion of Sarah Campbell. I have found a Sarah Jane Campbell (note her middle name), born in 1868 on Mill Street Auchnacloy (same street and same town they were living in on the 1901 census). Might not be her but its a good lead I think.

Patrick Slavin was born in Tyrone in 1901 but in Armagh in 1911, so I assume he's probably not local and moved in with her.

Is there any plausible explanation that if Jane Campbell is the daughter of Sarah why she would be Church of Ireland if Sarah actually turned out to be Catholic?

I desperately need the original marriage record but I can't find it at the moment on irishgenealogy.ie

pinkypinky · 16-06-2021 3:25pm

What I'm trying to point out is that in the study of any family, there isn't always a neat sewing up of all facts matching with all records. Records get lost, sometimes people are wrong.

I agree that birth is a good lead in 1868.

If Jane's father is not Patrick, then he might have been CoI.

I also had a look and didn't see a marriage that looked plausible for Campbell/Slevin. Use the alternative search engines on Ancestry/FindmyPast/Familysearch to check the marriage indexes there. Sometimes they throw up a different list.

VirginiaB · 16-06-2021 9:34pm

People can indeed have different religions in the same family. One of my family lines is from Ballintoy, Co Antrim. The records there--marriages etc--are COI. But when her husband died and most of her children immigrated to the US, my great-great-great grandmother followed. There too her grown children were Protestant except for one son, my great-great grandfather, who became a Catholic when he married a Catholic. The big surprise for me was finding an obit for my ggg grandmother, written by the Protestant minister who said her funeral. He noted that her life was 'exemplary and trustful' and that 'she was a devoted Catholic.' She spent over 25 years after immigration with her Protestant daughter, son in law and grandchildren. When the children were old enough, they drove her in a wagon over the rough prairie to a tiny Catholic church so she could 'attend services'. Bottom line, we can never be sure of religion without evidence, like everything else.

SharpshooterTom · 17-06-2021 6:10pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

I also had a look and didn't see a marriage that looked plausible for Campbell/Slevin. Use the alternative search engines on Ancestry/FindmyPast/Familysearch to check the marriage indexes there. Sometimes they throw up a different list.

I've looked through those sites and still cant find anything.

It begs the question then, where did rootsireland.ie get that marriage record? I presume they didn't just make up out of thin air, so there probably is an original record for this somewhere (I hope).

Would it be worth visiting PRONI? I live in Northern Ireland so I can visit, but not sure what they offer since I've never been. I don't want to pay £15 at GRONI and then for them to tell me it doesn't exist or they cant find anything.

pinkypinky · 17-06-2021 6:32pm

First, email Rootsireland's relevant branch and ask them. But probably you'll need to contact the church directly.

Afaik, Rootsireland got their records directly from churches. People on FÁS courses in the 1980s learning to type in some cases.

GRONI will not have any different records from www.irishgenealogy.ie (it covers 32 counties to 1922). You can search for free on GRONI though to try their algorithms. However, it may be a case that the marriage was not registered. You should see if you can find other people married in that church on the same day on Rootsireland and then see if those people were registered. A priest could have missed registering a page - I've seen that happen.

KildareFan · 17-06-2021 7:26pm

Jane was born in a workhouse in 1886, and was registered without a father's name. I haven't found an RC Baptismal record for her. There are possibilities - if Jane's father was Protestant, she may have been brought up in a protestant institution/foster home, and sent back to her mother when she was old enough to go to work. It is possible that Sarah Jane went to live with Patrick Slavin/Slaven/Sleven/Slevin and married in a church, but the marriage was never registered.

KildareFan · 17-06-2021 11:36pm

Whatever about the marriage, there are newspaper reports about Patrick Slevin/Slavin of Mill St, Augnacloy.
Tyrone Constitution 29 September 1893 p4 - Patrick Slavin of Mill St applied for the vote and was objected to by Unionists, and was denied the vote.
Northern Whig 14 October 1926 p5 - Patrick Slevin of Augnacloy fell out of a train on 12th October 1926, and was killed
Belfast Telegraph 27 June 1927 p11 - Patrick's widow Sarah claimed compensation for her husband's death. She said he was aged about 70 and was in his earlier days a slater, and in later years he dealt in scrap. He was earning about £2-10s a week, plus 10s old age pension. She too was in receipt of an old age pension and had saved £100. She was awarded £75 compensation, plus £60 costs.

pinkypinky · 18-06-2021 9:38am

Could this be him on the claim forms?

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=57979

KildareFan · 18-06-2021 2:19pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Could this be him on the claim forms?

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=57979

Probably is - the newspaper reports stated he was in receipt of an old age penson.

SharpshooterTom · 19-06-2021 3:38pm

KildareFan wrote: »

Whatever about the marriage, there are newspaper reports about Patrick Slevin/Slavin of Mill St, Augnacloy.
Tyrone Constitution 29 September 1893 p4 - Patrick Slavin of Mill St applied for the vote and was objected to by Unionists, and was denied the vote.
Northern Whig 14 October 1926 p5 - Patrick Slevin of Augnacloy fell out of a train on 12th October 1926, and was killed
Belfast Telegraph 27 June 1927 p11 - Patrick's widow Sarah claimed compensation for her husband's death. She said he was aged about 70 and was in his earlier days a slater, and in later years he dealt in scrap. He was earning about £2-10s a week, plus 10s old age pension. She too was in receipt of an old age pension and had saved £100. She was awarded £75 compensation, plus £60 costs.

Thank you very much for this! Are you a subscriber to some of these papers? I would definitely like to see if I can obtain old newspaper reports for some of my other ancestors. Reading excerpts like that makes them feel like real people showing you how hard life was then and they weren't just a bunch of names on forms.

It says he "fell" out of train, are we sure he wasn't pushed? Either way terrible way to go...

pinkypinky wrote:

Could this be him on the claim forms?

http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/details.jsp?id=57979

The only problem is Patrick Slavin says in 1901 he's born in Tyrone but in 1911 says he was born in Armagh. Why would he do that?

Joseph Slavin's future wife, my great grandmother Mary Speer, who is also resident in Aughnacloy in both the 1901 and 1911 census (living on Mill Street on the former), her mother Annie Speer (nee Murray) said she was born in Monaghan in 1901 but Tyrone in 1911. That brings so much frustration because although I have her marriage certificate and fathers name, I can't go back any further as I can't locate where she was from and there is a huge amount of uncertainty for any search I do.

The townland Syunshin in that 1851 census extract is also quite a bit away from Aughnacloy, its as close to Enniskillen.

pinkypinky · 19-06-2021 5:21pm

I've also got an ancestor who gave 2 different birth locations in the 2 censuses (Cork, then Dublin, where he lived for both). I think some people might have misread the question. In my ancestor's case, I actually found his baptism in Dublin (unusual father's first name for the period & mother's maiden name matches too). There's a marriage between the parents in the same church the year before. I wonder if his parents might have come from Cork though.

Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot reconcile something and that it probably means no further generations on that line.

SharpshooterTom · 19-06-2021 6:44pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

I've also got an ancestor who gave 2 different birth locations in the 2 censuses (Cork, then Dublin, where he lived for both). I think some people might have misread the question. In my ancestor's case, I actually found his baptism in Dublin (unusual father's first name for the period & mother's maiden name matches too). There's a marriage between the parents in the same church the year before. I wonder if his parents might have come from Cork though.

Sometimes you have to accept that you cannot reconcile something and that it probably means no further generations on that line.

It's curious you suggest they may have misunderstood the question, thinking about where they living at the time rather than where they were born, that's a very good possibility.

I think what I will do then is contact rootsireland and try to find where that marriage record is, because its out there somewhere. If I can get the fathers names that would be a massive breakthrough. I have noticed some church records don't give parents names though.

SharpshooterTom · 19-06-2021 8:31pm

Interestingly enough I found other records for children born to James Campbell and Catherine Babbington (Sarah's possible parents).

John (1966)
Elizabeth (1870)
Francis James (1871)
Martha (1876)

They moved out to Caledon parish (to the east next to Aughnacloy) for Martha's birth, the other three were born in Mill Street Aughnacloy.

I presume Carpenter and Sawyer is the same thing? He's listed as Carpenter on some birth records and Sawyer on others. I mention this because I did find this record.

It says this marriage was Roman Catholic. I have no idea they are related or not, but its possible - names, job description, dates and possibly location (Dungannon is the nearest large town in the area).

If they are related (and they might not be), that both Sarah and Martha have married into catholic families, would suggest that possibly the family was also catholic itself (I assume). So one of KildareFans theories on Jane Campbell being fostered out might be more plausible.

SharpshooterTom · 19-06-2021 9:15pm

I've been doing my family tree on ancestry.com, and appears some others have Patrick Slavin/Sarah Campbell in their family tree have done some good work on Jane Campbell giving some key dates about her (I'm assuming Kilkenny is a typo of course). I'm not sure any of you able to see this but Ill screen shot it for you:

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/162164939/person/112199526157/facts

Says she was living in Brooklyn New York in 1892 (at the age of 6??). Seems like a lot of back and forth movement between Ireland, New York and England in her life. I haven't read the sources in detail as I haven't paid for the upgrade so will do that in time. I'm assuming its well researched and correct.

VirginiaB · 20-06-2021 3:25am

Forgive me, but I would never assume that--well researched and correct. All too often the opposite is true. I hope you are right tho and are able to answer your questions.

SharpshooterTom · 20-06-2021 6:04am

If KildareFans info is correct that Sarah was receipt of an old age pension, would that not rule the 1868 birth out?

pinkypinky · 20-06-2021 11:05am

Yes, it would. She'd need to have been born 1857 or earlier to be in receipt of the pension in 1927.

Also, VirginiaB is totally right: you cannot rely on that tree, and the fact that they hop all over the place worries me.

If Owen Conroy only married Jane Campbell in 1914, then he's not Hester's father.

She's registered under Campbell: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1907/01685/1669688.pdf

State censuses can be checked for the intervening periods between federal ones in the USA. 1930/1940 should be checked. Also the UK 1939 Register.

SharpshooterTom · 20-06-2021 2:18pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Yes, it would. She'd need to have been born 1857 or earlier to be in receipt of the pension in 1927.

The Pensions Act was amended in 1925 with the age being lowered to 65. Meaning she would needed to have born by 1962.

It would make more sense as her last child was born in 1901.

Is there anyway she could fib her age? Its just that if the 1868 birth wasn't her that would be a huge blow, it looked like a very good match.

I'll heed your advice on the ancestry.com page of Jane Campbell. Again her life history isn't overly important its just trying to find the origins of her religion.

pinkypinky · 20-06-2021 2:26pm

Was confused about your pensions comment, but then remember we're talking about Northern Ireland by then.

People absolutely did lie about their ages, but she would have needed something to back up her claim.

Trying to determine the religion of my mums great-grandmother - What to do next?

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