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VAR Discussion thread

  • 27-10-2019 1:32pm
    #1
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,693 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I didn't see a thread like this so decided to start one.

    I was originally a bag advocate of VAR. I never expected it to mean that every decision was going to be right, but I did think it would mean that we would no longer see blatant game-changing mistakes ('clear and obvious error), as that is what VAR would eradicate.

    I'm less pleased with it that I expected to be though, and I do think we are still seeing genuinely poor decisions either not corrected by VAR, or worse, made by VAR.

    Just from watching Brighton-Everton on MOTD last night, Richarlison was manhandled in the box (not massively so, but the defender absolutely made efforts to grab and impede him), and VAR did not intervene. Later, Michael Keane, in a very natural motion, brought his foot down on Connolly's foot, and VAR gave the penalty after. That's just one of many examples I could list.


    Having said that, I have to consider that I (and an awful lot more fans and even ex-player pundits) just don't know how the laws are supposed to be interpreted these days. I think there is a sense among fans of what 'should' be a handball, or a foul, or a dive, and what VAR is doing is getting these things examined in much more explicit detail and showing us that where fans think the laws 'should' be and where they actually are, is often quite different.


«134567…19

Comments

  • #2
    8-10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,366 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    I was all for bringing it in but have gone full 180. It's not for soccer I don't think. Offside maybe but nothing else. It's a bit of a farce and preferred it as it was


  • #3
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110923072


  • #4
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    The refs are, by and large, inept and unfortunately its the same refs operating the system. For big games they usually pick one of their best men for the match and but then stick some nobody in the VAR studio. They have to start using the monitor at pitch side, the man on the grass needs to be the one ultimately making all the decisions over the game he's been appointed to. They'll still be sh!t though but at least we'll know who to blame.

    And mike them all up and lets hear whats being said.


  • #5
    J. Marston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,221 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    Fans should be able to hear the discussion between the ref and VAR official like the ref and TMO in rugby.

    It won't happen though because it would just show how much spoofing goes on when it comes to making a decision.


  • #6
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,693 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    J. Marston wrote: »
    Fans should be able to hear the discussion between the ref and VAR official like the ref and TMO in rugby.

    It won't happen though because it would just show how much spoofing goes on when it comes to making a decision.
    This is something I wondered as well.
    In rugby, you can see and hear that the ref and TMO are going through a kind of checklist of things - was there contact with the head? Was there an attempt to wrap arms in the tackle? Was there a clear degree of danger? Were there mitigating circumstances?

    Now, decisions can still be debatable or controversial, but we can see and hear the whole process and that is reassuring at least.

    With football, I wonder does the same checklist even exist. We can see it does for some things like handball - there are a couple of things are looked at like 'natural' position of arms and distance the ball has traveled.

    I also agree that the ref should be looking at the monitor more, rather than just announcing the decision made by the TMO.


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  • #7
    SuperTortoise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    Should be there for offsides and goal-line decisions only, everything else sucks the emotion out of the game, you're afraid to celebrate when your team scores now because we have to wait 5 mins for VAR and then the moment is gone.


  • #8
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    I celebrated both of Liverpools goals last week like mad. One got chalked off afterwards but that was possible before VAR too. I've celebrated many that got chalked off over the years.


  • #9
    Corholio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    .G. wrote: »
    I celebrated both of Liverpools goals last week like mad. One got chalked off afterwards but that was possible before VAR too. I've celebrated many that got chalked off over the years.

    That was always seconds after though 90% of the time, now it's 1-3 minutes 90% of the time, and even at that they still don't make the right decision.


  • #10
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    Regardless, I still celebrate as per when the ball hits the net. If its ruled out so be it but it doesn't stop any emotion for me, defo adds more swear words at times after the celebrations though :D


  • #11
    8-10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,366 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    SuperTortoise wrote: »
    Should be there for offsides and goal-line decisions only, everything else sucks the emotion out of the game, you're afraid to celebrate when your team scores now because we have to wait 5 mins for VAR and then the moment is gone.

    You don't need VAR for goal-line decisions. That technology was already there pre-VAR and works fine

    For me the most frustrating thing the first time I saw it used live is that it wasn't clear to the fans that there was a check. Then there was no indication of the check being over, what it was for initially, or what the decision was.

    People were just looking around confused as hell


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  • #12
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,693 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    I think the slight hesitation in celebration after goals is a reasonable price to pay for getting the big decisions right. I think a wait of a minute or two is reasonable too.


    But I don't think we are seeing the big decisions rights all the time, still a fair amount of big decisions bring gotten wrong.

    But again, I suppose it's not a VAR issue, just the VAR process brings the rules under the microscope.


  • #13
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    After today, I think the "high bar" they set for VAR intervening has been lowered somewhat.


  • #14
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    .G. wrote: »
    After today, I think the "high bar" they set for VAR intervening has been lowered somewhat.

    Lowered so far so now it's finding things that aren't there to disallow goals.


  • #15
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    Yeah still looking for the right balance.


  • #16
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    And yet, still, the referee refuses to use the giant monitor beside the screen to actually get decisions right.


  • #17
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,550 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Think the biggest issue is when people refer to VAR like it’s a sentient being, or something like goal line technology that operates by itself.

    It’s the referees both on field and in the VAR studio that need to be looked at and held accountable. Given they’ve video footage at their disposal they’re doing such a bad job.

    I remember one of the biggest complaints about VAR being that there would be no controversy to discuss on a Monday in the office. Which was ridiculous in itself. Well.....challenge accepted by the Premier League referees.


  • #18
    CSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,550 ✭✭✭✭CSF


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    And yet, still, the referee refuses to use the giant monitor beside the screen to actually get decisions right.

    I don’t fully see why this is necessary. Surely the referee in the booth is supposed to be just as capable. Are we bestowing far too much power on the on field referee?

    If he’s wrong we shouldn’t need him to have to admit it, to change the decision.


  • #19
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Those complaining about VAR and holding off celebrations its just like offsides you will have the joy and then deflated if the flag is up late. Only thing is then you could have a 2nd celebration once VAR awards the goal.

    ******



  • #20
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    CSF wrote: »
    I don’t fully see why this is necessary. Surely the referee in the booth is supposed to be just as capable. Are we bestowing far too much power on the on field referee?

    If he’s wrong we shouldn’t need him to have to admit it, to change the decision.

    We shouldn't need it, I agree, but here we are.


  • #21
    Umpalumpa
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭Umpalumpa


    In the United game the kepper came of his line a couple of yards and nothing was reviewed? It was clear as day.


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  • #22
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,512 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Umpalumpa wrote: »
    In the United game the kepper came of his line a couple of yards and nothing was reviewed? It was clear as day.

    EPL made a pre-season decision that that isn't VAR-reviewable as far as I know. It's only decided by the on-field officials.


  • #23
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    EPL made a pre-season decision that that isn't VAR-reviewable as far as I know. It's only decided by the on-field officials.

    I'm kind of okay with this. It is unrealistic to expect a keeper to stay right on his line, but the law needs to there in case of a keeper being miles out of expected variance. I didnt think that Krul was crazy out of whack with the norm today.


  • #24
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,423 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    VAR is there to help the ref, but there seems to be a rule there to absolutely NEVER help the Ref under any circumstances whatsoever.
    Who the hell makes these rules. Refs are getting things wrong in every game, and the VAR sees it, but won't over rule him, or ask him to look at it himself on monitor, it's pretty messed up.
    They have everything to gain and nothing to lose, yet they continue to use these stupid rules to NEVER help the Ref, or let him look at the monitor.


  • #25
    Corholio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    Crouch on MOTD 2.

    'VAR monitor at side of the pitch was like my time at Burnley, on the bench and looking sad' :P


  • #26
    Osmosis Jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,913 ✭✭✭✭Osmosis Jones


    VAR is fantastic, the Premier League implementation of it is a farce.


  • #27
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,401 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Osmosis Jones wrote: »
    VAR is fantastic, the Premier League implementation of it is a farce.

    That’s the long and the short of it. Just fall into line England, it’s okay to do what the rest of the world is doing.


  • #28
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,071 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    I don't think it is just the Premier League's implementation that is the problem (though it has been terrible)

    I haven't seen a league/competition anywhere where VAR isn't throwing up controversial decisions every week.

    Waiting a couple of minutes before you can celebrate, or celebrating a goal then seeing it disallowed is sucking the enjoyment out of the sport. It's not like the offside flag killing the celebration because that's within seconds.

    Just as much moaning about fairness or unfairness of a decision continues, so wheres the improvement?


    This article sums it up for me anyway: [URL] https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-var-has-stolen-footballs-soul/a-50901662[/URL]

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



  • #29
    BillyHasMates
    Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭BillyHasMates


    Up to the past week I thought there was consistency atleast with VAR though I didn't agree with how it was being implemented. They were calling offsides and handballs and leaving everything else to the on pitch ref. That seems to have changed in the last week and not for the better. The decision to rule out Arsenal's third goal in particular yesterday by VAR was baffling. Other decisions over the weekend equally baffling.

    There needs to be much clearer guidelines issued by the premier league as to its implementation. Fans, pundits and even the players and refs seem confused by it and if this weekend becomes the norm then it will ruin the season as it will become the sole talking point during and after games.


  • #30
    Sheep breeder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    .G. wrote: »
    The refs are, by and large, inept and unfortunately its the same refs operating the system. For big games they usually pick one of their best men for the match and but then stick some nobody in the VAR studio. They have to start using the monitor at pitch side, the man on the grass needs to be the one ultimately making all the decisions over the game he's been appointed to. They'll still be sh!t though but at least we'll know who to blame.

    And mike them all up and lets hear whats being said.

    Agree totally with them having a mike and the only way to know what is going on between var and the ref, just like the rugby on Saturday when both try’s were got correctly.


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  • #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    EPL made a pre-season decision that that isn't VAR-reviewable as far as I know. It's only decided by the on-field officials.

    In west ham vs man city on the opening weekend agero missed a penalty but it was reviewed and retaken as the keeper came off his line so it is reviewable.


  • #32
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Maverick Nutritious Accelerator wrote: »
    In west ham vs man city on the opening weekend agero missed a penalty but it was reviewed and retaken as the keeper came off his line so it is reviewable.


    It was reviewed and retaken due to encroachment in the area by the defender, not because the keeper came off his line.


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    irelandrover wrote: »
    It was reviewed and retaken due to encroachment in the area by the defender, not because the keeper came off his line.

    I’m positive it was because of the keeper, I was watching the game and all the var replays focused on the keepers feet.


  • #34
    irelandrover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Maverick Nutritious Accelerator wrote: »
    I’m positive it was because of the keeper, I was watching the game and all the var replays focused on the keepers feet.


    It was for encroachment.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/west-ham-vs-man-city/407988


  • #35
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Osmosis Jones wrote: »
    VAR is fantastic, the Premier League implementation of it is a farce.

    But the PL implementation of it is supposed to be trying to get rid of the unwanted (farcical) elements in how others have used it. The Portugal Iran WC game for instance.


  • #36
    citytillidie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,269 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    Talking of Video replays in other sports sure look at Ireland Hockey last night video was used and the Umpire seen something no one else did and awarded Canada a pen stroke with the last play of the game taking the game to run ins meaning Ireland went from celebrating to been in the Olympics to having to face a run ins and missing out.

    ******



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  • #37
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,119 ✭✭✭Augme


    The problem is the expectations people put on VAR. They always strike me as hugely unrealistic and seem to think every decision has a correct or incorrect outcome. There's a huge amount of personal interpretation that goes into the rules of football. VAR will only ever get offsides and handballs correct. And only handballs correct if the law is that of it hits the arm, no matter what, it's a foul like it currently is when an attacking player handles it in the box.

    I thought the third arsenal goal yesterday was a foul. Lots of people disagree. Can't say I'd have had a huge issue if they decided it wasn't clear and obvious and not ruled it out though.

    I also don't get the whole "OMG the ref has to see it" argument either. Still going to lead to controversys anyway and I don't think it will be hugely more accurate.


  • #38
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Augme wrote: »
    The problem is the expectations people put on VAR. They always strike me as hugely unrealistic and seem to think every decision has a correct or incorrect outcome. There's a huge amount of personal interpretation that goes into the rules of football. VAR will only ever get offsides and handballs correct. And only handballs correct if the law is that of it hits the arm, no matter what, it's a foul like it currently is when an attacking player handles it in the box.

    I thought the third arsenal goal yesterday was a foul. Lots of people disagree. Can't say I'd have had a huge issue if they decided it wasn't clear and obvious and not ruled it out though.

    I also don't get the whole "OMG the ref has to see it" argument either. Still going to lead to controversys anyway and I don't think it will be hugely more accurate.

    VAR was sold on the fact we need to get decisions correct above anything else and we can't get them wrong in a multimillion pound industry etc etc.

    No-one in the Emirates could possibly know at the time why the goal was ruled out, simply given as no-goal. That's not an EPL thing, no VAR has shown the crowd what decisions are given for.

    VAR slowing it down long enough can pick out a trip (and slowing it down, yes I agree it is a foul) that the ref did not in real time. If you look for it, you will often find 'contact'.

    That is refereeing the game differently, unless you think the ref should have spotted that foul in real time.

    VAR should also much more consistent than referees in real time as they are looking at every angle for as long as they want at whatever speed. Is the foul on Milivojevic consistent with Deulofeu or Origi?

    Why is there a high bar for referees, but a low bar for referees assistants and their calls...


  • #39
    klose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,874 ✭✭✭✭klose


    It's at least cutting out offside in the game which is a plus for me, how it's being handled in other aspects is disappointing enough so far but I never expected the first season of it to be 100%. The non use of those car screens at the side of the pitches is pretty bizarre.


  • #40
    Augme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,119 ✭✭✭Augme


    dfx- wrote: »
    VAR was sold on the fact we need to get decisions correct above anything else and we can't get them wrong in a multimillion pound industry etc etc.

    No-one in the Emirates could possibly know at the time why the goal was ruled out, simply given as no-goal. That's not an EPL thing, no VAR has shown the crowd what decisions are given for.

    VAR slowing it down long enough can pick out a trip (and slowing it down, yes I agree it is a foul) that the ref did not in real time. If you look for it, you will often find 'contact'.

    That is refereeing the game differently, unless you think the ref should have spotted that foul in real time.

    VAR should also much more consistent than referees in real time as they are looking at every angle for as long as they want at whatever speed. Is the foul on Milivojevic consistent with Deulofeu or Origi?

    Why is there a high bar for referees, but a low bar for referees assistants and their calls...


    It wasn't really. It was sold on a "we need to improve our chances in getting decisions better and VAR has certainly done that. As I said, the whole attitude of decisions having to be correct is bizarre because s lot of decisions are subjective. If the attitude is VAR should be used to get decisions correct then it should only ever be used for offside and handball calls.


    I don't think the ref should have spotted the foul in real time given how quick it happened and how much was going on, however, if given the reply he would have awarded it. But I guess that's the issue, how should VAR be used? Everyone will have their own opinion on that and because of that there will always be complaints about it.

    I don't think it's a case of VAR being inconsistent I think it's a case of figuring it out what it should be used for and what the criteria is. I think this weekend there seemed to be a shift, will be interesting to see if that is deliberate or not.


  • #41
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/oct/28/supporters-premier-league-var-chaos

    Supporters groups getting involved.


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  • #42
    Corholio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,014 ✭✭✭✭Corholio


    I think one of the big problems is the bizarre non use of the touchline screens. I think refs would have no problem reversing their own decision if they watched it themselves, the problem comes when a 2nd official has to be seen to be correcting him and so far they have been quite reluctant to do so.


  • #43
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Corholio wrote: »
    I think one of the big problems is the bizarre non use of the touchline screens. I think refs would have no problem reversing their own decision if they watched it themselves, the problem comes when a 2nd official has to be seen to be correcting him and so far they have been quite reluctant to do so.

    The Bundesliga tried to stop using pitch side screens and quickly went back to it, I actually can't remember any EPL ref using one.


  • #44
    8-10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,366 ✭✭✭✭8-10


    Not being able to properly communicate to the fans in attendance is the worst part of it by far. Sucks any enjoyment out of it for me


  • #45
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    I'm kind of okay with this. It is unrealistic to expect a keeper to stay right on his line, but the law needs to there in case of a keeper being miles out of expected variance. I didnt think that Krul was crazy out of whack with the norm today.

    When the used it in the Women's World Cup there were 2 incidents of where the penalty was retaken and then after that the keepers were glued to their lines. It was a great success. But the PL chose to ignore it because pundits were complaining after Scotland were on the receiving end of it.


  • #46
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I'm of the opinion that it was brought in half arsed for it to be deemed a failure. It was blatantly obvious in the years running up to it that the TV Companies did not want it. Games were running longer and they were missing out on ad breaks.


  • #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    When the used it in the Women's World Cup there were 2 incidents of where the penalty was retaken and then after that the keepers were glued to their lines. It was a great success. But the PL chose to ignore it because pundits were complaining after Scotland were on the receiving end of it.

    It's the usual thing in football; enforcement or lack of it. Same with dissent, every few years there's a "crackdown" then it regresses back.


  • #48
    .G.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,417 ✭✭✭.G.


    EH_6XxSWkAAh33E?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


  • #49
    adaminho
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,666 ✭✭✭adaminho


    I was reading today that the VAR ref that was looking at the Arsenal match has only 9 championship matches under his belt. Surely they could use some recently retired ref's to look at it.


  • #50
    Ashbourne hoop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Ashbourne hoop


    Not a fan of VAR at all. Just let refs ref and accept that they are human and make mistakes from time to time.


  • #51
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    https://twitter.com/skysports_bryan/status/1189571361229938689?s=19


    FIFA are politely telling them to start using the monitors.


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