Local property tax

derossi · 10-10-2019 9:38pm #1

Strange that there is no thread on it and strange that it was voted through at the maximum amount. In a time when property values are increasing, revenue raised through the tax would be increased anyway but now there is a double whammy with an extra 15%.

I would have no issue with a property tax if I was getting a direct service from it, like bin collection for example, but the tax is just added to the council budget. The council is talking about balancing their budget but as we all know there is unbalanced investment up here anyway so rather than look for investment the council have decided that we just need to pay for it all ourselves. The 15 Councillors that voted for this are surprising and the two abstentions did not help.

I don't know, does this not seem fairly regressive to anyone else particulary combined with the no giveaway budget and potential Brexit business?

L1011 · 10-10-2019 10:18pm

LPT is still charged on 2013 valuations so no increase from there (yet).

Donegal has been drawing on the solidarity funding from counties that are taking in more - mainly the Dublin area and Clare weirdly. Plenty of money coming in from outside.

Firblog · 12-10-2019 3:28pm

Strangely enough I'd support an increase in the property tax - strange in that it means I'd be paying more. I'd even advocate that bin charges are incorporated into the charge, so that everyone would have to pay them and there'd be no reason for anyone to go dumping their rubbish around the county.

muffler · 12-10-2019 4:39pm

Firblog wrote: »

Strangely enough I'd support an increase in the property tax - strange in that it means I'd be paying more.

Strangely enough you will be paying more next year. Your wish has been granted by those lovely FF Councillors

Firblog · 17-10-2019 12:12am

muffler wrote: »

Strangely enough you will be paying more next year. Your wish has been granted by those lovely FF Councillors

It's not often councillors vote for the unpopular option.. wasn't it FF who got rid of the property tax back in the 70s?

JoannieG · 18-10-2019 12:17pm

My issue with the LPT is that the owner of the property has to pay it, not the person occupying the premises. This charge was introduced to pay for services including public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; and street lighting. These services can be used by anyone, not just property owners, so why shouldn't everyone pay for them? Include bin charges as well, but make everyone pay - then there might be a greater appreciation of the services provided by local authorities.

muffler · 18-10-2019 10:32pm

JoannieG wrote: »

My issue with the LPT is that the owner of the property has to pay it, not the person occupying the premises.

Im assuming that this is a property you own, dont live in but rent it out. If thats the case I dont see why you would have issues with the property tax.

JoannieG wrote: »

This charge was introduced to pay for services including public parks; libraries; open spaces and leisure amenities; planning and development; fire and emergency services; maintenance and cleaning of streets; and street lighting. These services can be used by anyone, not just property owners, so why shouldn't everyone pay for them? Include bin charges as well, but make everyone pay - then there might be a greater appreciation of the services provided by local authorities.

Im not really getting your train of thought here. Am I right in saying that you think everyone should pay property tax regardless of whether or not they own property? What next...ask the passengers in cars or people on buses to pay road tax?

L1011 · 18-10-2019 11:15pm

Occupants pay in many countries; UK being the obvious example. Would be nearly impossible to sell as an idea here though.

JoannieG · 19-10-2019 1:35am

muffler wrote: »

Im assuming that this is a property you own, dont live in but rent it out. If thats the case I dont see why you would have issues with the property tax.

Im not really getting your train of thought here. Am I right in saying that you think everyone should pay property tax regardless of whether or not they own property? What next...ask the passengers in cars or people on buses to pay road tax?

I live in the property I own. I have no problem paying for services provided by the local authority but I believe that everyone should pay for these services, regardless of whether they own property or not. In my opinion, it's a misnomer to call it "local property tax". It should be a local authority tax/services tax, call it whatever you want. If you avail of the service then you should contribute towards it.

muffler · 19-10-2019 3:23pm

JoannieG wrote: »

I live in the property I own. I have no problem paying for services provided by the local authority but I believe that everyone should pay for these services, regardless of whether they own property or not. In my opinion, it's a misnomer to call it "local property tax". It should be a local authority tax/services tax, call it whatever you want. If you avail of the service then you should contribute towards it.

Cant argue with that. But I can see why or how the powers that be do these things. They want more money taken in so if you own a business you pay rates, if you own a vehicle you pay road tax and in this instance if you own a property you pay an additional levy.

I agree with the sentiment that everyone should pay in the general sense but aren't we all paying taxes in one way or another? What annoys me more is that there is no clear and defined accounts available to show where the money derived from the local property tax is spent by Donegal County Council.

Firblog · 23-10-2019 5:45pm

I'd agree with that. Mate of mine has a house in Belfast where he pays £1000+ in council tax. He gets a letter each year of the breakdown of where the money was spent in % terms I.e 12 % on lighting, 5% litter collection etc.

ednwireland · 24-10-2019 9:55am

Firblog wrote: »

I'd agree with that. Mate of mine has a house in Belfast where he pays £1000+ in council tax. He gets a letter each year of the breakdown of where the money was spent in % terms I.e 12 % on lighting, 5% litter collection etc.

was just about to say the same thing, family in england have the same get a complete breakdown of spend and even then the council is basically bankrupt due to central gov. cutbacks.
it annoys me that they dont have to publish accounts of what they spend money on.

sorry meant to say easy to read breakdown of accounts as there financial statement is probably great if youre an accountant

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/media/donegalcountyc/finance/pdfs/afs/AFS%202018%20(Audited).pdf

antoinolachtnai · 24-10-2019 10:07am

ednwireland wrote: »

was just about to say the same thing, family in england have the same get a complete breakdown of spend and even then the council is basically bankrupt due to central gov. cutbacks.
it annoys me that they dont have to publish accounts of what they spend money on.

sorry meant to say easy to read breakdown of accounts as there financial statement is probably great if youre an accountant

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/media/donegalcountyc/finance/pdfs/afs/AFS%202018%20(Audited).pdf

The ‘revenue budget’ is probably easier to follow.

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/services/financepublications/donegalcountycouncilbudgetbook/

Geuze · 24-10-2019 10:12am

muffler wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment that everyone should pay in the general sense but aren't we all paying taxes in one way or another? What annoys me more is that there is no clear and defined accounts available to show where the money derived from the local property tax is spent by Donegal County Council.

There is.

All LA must publish Budgets in Q4 of the previous year.

All LA must publish Annual Financial Statements.

Geuze · 24-10-2019 10:14am

muffler wrote: »

Cant argue with that. But I can see why or how the powers that be do these things. They want more money taken in so if you own a business you pay rates, if you own a vehicle you pay road tax and in this instance if you own a property you pay an additional levy.

I agree with the sentiment that everyone should pay in the general sense but aren't we all paying taxes in one way or another? What annoys me more is that there is no clear and defined accounts available to show where the money derived from the local property tax is spent by Donegal County Council.

Here is the consolidated Budget for all 31 LA:

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/final_local_authority_budget_publication_doc_print_version.pdf

Here is the Donegal Budget:

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/media/donegalcountyc/finance/pdfs/revenuebudget/Adopted%20Revenue%20Budget%202019.pdf

muffler · 24-10-2019 10:02pm

Geuze wrote: »

Here is the consolidated Budget for all 31 LA:

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/final_local_authority_budget_publication_doc_print_version.pdf

Here is the Donegal Budget:

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/media/donegalcountyc/finance/pdfs/revenuebudget/Adopted%20Revenue%20Budget%202019.pdf

Thanks for posting the links.

The budgets dont specify what amount is spent in each Electoral Area (EA) and it would be nice to see what amount of the property tax income is, in turn, invested in local services. Not only does it not show what is spent in individual towns and their surrounding areas but it doesnt even give a breakdown for the EA's in the County. I think most people would be interested in seeing what services have been provided or improved etc in their local area.

In fact looking at the very first set of figures we see this...

Environmental Services €13,908,348
Recreation and Amenity €9,609,521
Agriculture, Education, Health & Welfare €2,755,140
Miscellaneous Services €23,347,284

Expenditure on "miscellaneous services" is almost as much as the total combined expenditure for environmental services, recreation & amenity, and agriculture, education, health & welfare. Miscellaneous! We dont know how or where that money is spent yet it amounts to 16% of the total budget of €145,979,803. Sure, the figure can be broken down a bit further when forensically examined but there is still large chunks of expenditure that we will never know about. A complete lack of transparency.

In fairness thats the overall county budget but we still have no clear picture on how or where the money derived from the property tax here is actually spent.

antoinolachtnai · 25-10-2019 12:31am

muffler wrote: »

Thanks for posting the links.

The budgets dont specify what amount is spent in each Electoral Area (EA) and it would be nice to see what amount of the property tax income is, in turn, invested in local services. Not only does it not show what is spent in individual towns and their surrounding areas but it doesnt even give a breakdown for the EA's in the County. I think most people would be interested in seeing what services have been provided or improved etc in their local area.

In fact looking at the very first set of figures we see this...

Expenditure on "miscellaneous services" is almost as much as the total combined expenditure for environmental services, recreation & amenity, and agriculture, education, health & welfare. Miscellaneous! We dont know how or where that money is spent yet it amounts to 16% of the total budget of €145,979,803. Sure, the figure can be broken down a bit further when forensically examined but there is still large chunks of expenditure that we will never know about. A complete lack of transparency.

In fairness thats the overall county budget but we still have no clear picture on how or where the money derived from the property tax here is actually spent.

Miscellaneous services is fairly extensively broken down on page 76 of the donegal budget. A big chunk of it isn’t expenditure at all but write offs. A lot of it is machinery.

antoinolachtnai · 25-10-2019 8:00pm

This is an easier way to look at it.

http://localauthorityfinances.com/spending/6/

malinheader · 27-10-2019 7:53am

You can look at as many charts or graphs as you want, but you will find no chart for money squandered. Water main in my area needed replacement for years, instead 18 months ago relayed new road. Great job about 2 kilometres. Now 18 months later replacing mains, over 40 patches on road needs to be all resurfaced again. That's only one instance, In this county and country no one is accountable for wasting taxpayers money.

Hal3000 · 27-10-2019 8:08am

Firblog wrote: »

Strangely enough I'd support an increase in the property tax - strange in that it means I'd be paying more. I'd even advocate that bin charges are incorporated into the charge, so that everyone would have to pay them and there'd be no reason for anyone to go dumping their rubbish around the county.

Yes because we get some much of a return from it. So much so that community groups have to clean their own villages.

Firblog · 31-10-2019 12:01pm

Hal3000 wrote: »

Yes because we get some much of a return from it. So much so that community groups have to clean their own villages.

You're preaching to the converted here Hal; the lpt was a missed oppertunity in that the funds seem to go into the general revenue stream of the council instead of being ring fenced for specific community projects such as - local litter initiatives, parks, lighting, playgrounds etc.

In the post of mine you quoted, i was on about incorporating bin charges into the LPT which I believe would reduce the littering; was speaking to one of the local council guys doing the litter round today in Donegal Town, he pointed to various bins saying what was in each.. one was filled with take aways, another beer tins and bottles, another baby nappies, and the last one he saved for shock value... filled with adult nappies :eek:; if every household had to pay for bins people wouldn't be dumping their crap in the public bins.

malinheader · 31-10-2019 12:12pm

Firblog wrote: »

You're preaching to the converted here Hal; the lpt was a missed oppertunity in that the funds seem to go into the general revenue stream of the council instead of being ring fenced for specific community projects such as - local litter initiatives, parks, lighting, playgrounds etc.

In the post of mine you quoted, i was on about incorporating bin charges into the LPT which I believe would reduce the littering; was speaking to one of the local council guys doing the litter round today in Donegal Town, he pointed to various bins saying what was in each.. one was filled with take aways, another beer tins and bottles, another baby nappies, and the last one he saved for shock value... filled with adult nappies :eek:; if every household had to pay for bins people wouldn't be dumping their crap in the public bins.

Also if they're was a serious attempt by the council to put a stop to littering it might also help. Had an issue with this myself and found out no one really cared. I do agree though I wouldn't mind the bin charge being incorporated into the lpt but my biggest fear is we would end up paying far more than we do now . There always looking for a chance to squeeze more out of you.

muffler · 31-10-2019 8:50pm

Firblog wrote: »

if every household had to pay for bins people wouldn't be dumping their crap in the public bins.

I think most if not all of us are currently being charged for having our bins emptied and there is still a litter problem.

Asking people to pay more money isnt the solution when they are already dumping instead of paying.

malinheader · 31-10-2019 10:56pm

muffler wrote: »

I think most if not all of us are currently being charged for having our bins emptied and there is still a litter problem.

Asking people to pay more money isnt the solution when they are already dumping instead of paying.

In my part of the county if you don't leave out your wheelie bin you pay nothing. How you get rid of your rubbish is never questioned. Another big big mistake was doing away with the bin labels.

Bob24 · 31-10-2019 11:10pm

JoannieG wrote: »

My issue with the LPT is that the owner of the property has to pay it, not the person occupying the premises.

In a rental situation and from a financial perspective it doesn’t really make a difference who is paying it, as at the end of the day the market decides on rent prices based on the overall cost for occupying the property. So if tenants had to pay the LPT the market would settle for lower rents and landlords wouldn’t be better off (nor would tenants be paying more or less to live in the property, they would pay a similar total amount, just a bit less in rent and with LPT as an extra cost).

I think from a practical perspective it is more efficient to make the landlord liable though. It reduces the opportunities for fraud/evasion, and going after a clearly registered and identified owner makes the process more efficient that going after changing and not always clearly identified tenants (which saves taxpayer money vs the time revenue would have to spend identifying/chasing current and previous tenants).

Firblog · 09-11-2019 4:15pm

muffler wrote: »

I think most if not all of us are currently being charged for having our bins emptied and there is still a litter problem.

Asking people to pay more money isnt the solution when they are already dumping instead of paying.

You're way wrong there, if all of us were paying for bins to be emptied you wouldn't have people driving up and putting their household rubbish into public bins or worse still into ditches at the side of the road.

I don't see how you can figure that people would be paying more to have bins collected if the charge was in the LPT.. Each area / DED / Town's collection could be put out to tender by the council, and the best tender selected. Winning refuse companies would have lower costs as a result of not having to send lorries to an estate to collect only a few bins instead of 100's.

malinheader · 09-11-2019 6:21pm

Firblog wrote: »

You're way wrong there, if all of us were paying for bins to be emptied you wouldn't have people driving up and putting their household rubbish into public bins or worse still into ditches at the side of the road.

I don't see how you can figure that people would be paying more to have bins collected if the charge was in the LPT.. Each area / DED / Town's collection could be put out to tender by the council, and the best tender selected. Winning refuse companies would have lower costs as a result of not having to send lorries to an estate to collect only a few bins instead of 100's.

Also any homes not putting out a wheelie bin should be asked to state how they are disposing of their rubbish.

muffler · 09-11-2019 8:23pm

Firblog wrote: »

You're way wrong there

That would be your opinion which you are of course entitled to. In a hypothetical situation there is no wrong or right.

Firblog wrote: »

if all of us were paying for bins to be emptied you wouldn't have people driving up and putting their household rubbish into public bins or worse still into ditches at the side of the road.

So when the people who are currently dumping illegally, are asked to pay for a service that is already there, they will pay up, bin their rubbish and stop dumping?

Firblog wrote: »

I don't see how you can figure that people would be paying more to have bins collected if the charge was in the LPT

Where did I say that?

Firblog · 12-11-2019 1:40pm

muffler wrote: »

So when the people who are currently dumping illegally, are asked to pay for a service that is already there, they will pay up, bin their rubbish and stop dumping?

If people are charged & have to pay for their bins to be collected you reckon that they'll still get into the car with their rubbish and go dump it elsewhere? That's the point of putting it in the LPT, they'll have to pay it, no dodging the revenue..

You said in previous post

muffler wrote: »

Asking people to pay more money isnt the solution when they are already dumping instead of paying.

Where did you figure people would be asked to pay more money?

muffler · 13-11-2019 1:56am

Firblog wrote: »

Where did you figure people would be asked to pay more money?

You are now asking me the same question as I asked you. Looks like we're going round in circles. However we have to go back to this...

Firblog wrote: »

Strangely enough I'd support an increase in the property tax - strange in that it means I'd be paying more. I'd even advocate that bin charges are incorporated into the charge, so that everyone would have to pay them and there'd be no reason for anyone to go dumping their rubbish around the county.

Bin charges incorporated into the PT will naturally result in a higher payment. My point is that the people who dump their rubbish do so because they wont pay to have their bins collected. I really cant see too many of them agreeing to pay more PT in the knowledge that the increase is for bin collection. Truth be told its likely that the minority who dont or wont pay the PT are the very same people who dont or wont pay bin charges.

Going back to paying domestic rates wouldnt be something any government would take on in my opinion

Firblog · 16-11-2019 1:06am

Aye my reasoning was that bin charges should be incorporated into the LPT; with the revenue doing the collecting there'd be much reduced chance of people not paying, which would mean reduced dumping as everyone would be paying for their bins being lifted.

Local property tax

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