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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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    #5342
    Scottmactom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭Scottmactom


    aloooof wrote: »
    I suspect it's largely because NZ have greater strength in depth. It's easier replace, say, Dan Carter with Beauden Barrett. Since Carter retired Barrett, Mounga, Sopoaga and Cruden have all had caps. We don't have anywhere near that quality.

    Plus someone like Carter retires from international rugby when he leaves to get paid opening up the 10 position.


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    #5343
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    aloooof wrote: »
    You can keep saying this, but I'll keep repeating that he's started exactly one game since Larkham has come in. It's far more the former than the latter.

    It was a problem the season before Larkham joined as well. It's a legacy issue that hasn't been addressed. And Munster have as talented a half back line and back three as any. They're wasted in the way they set out. Carbery simply isn't in the right system he needs to flourish. The way the provinces set out their attacking structures are different, but Leinster have so many more onfield options to choose from once the 10 gets the ball.


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    #5344
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,255 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Clegg wrote: »
    It was a problem the season before Larkham joined as well. It's a legacy issue that hasn't been addressed. And Munster have as talented a half back line and back three as any. They're wasted in the way they set out.

    They've literally changed coaches. Felix Jones for Stephen Larkham. Yet it somehow hasn't been addressed? :confused:


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    #5345
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    aloooof wrote: »
    They've literally changed coaches. Felix Jones for Stephen Larkham. Yet it somehow hasn't been addressed? :confused:

    Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.


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    #5346
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Clegg wrote: »
    Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.

    You've made that decision based on 103 minutes of rugby, coming off injury, with Munster this season?

    He came off the bench against Leinster in Thomond, it's his first game since the RWC.
    He started at Ulster in a mix and match lineup where Munster ended up completely overwhelmed.

    His biggest issue by far has been his unavailability. He gets injured in training in January requiring surgery and then opts for another surgery on an existing problem. What has that got to do with the Munster coaches? Between Ireland and Munster he's played 218 minutes since August 2019.


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    #5347
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,255 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Clegg wrote: »
    Yes. Because things haven't changed a bit.

    There was a marked change in how Munster played this season.

    And again, Carbery started exactly one game in that new system. You seem to be drawing a massive conclusion on Carbery based on that one game.


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    #5348
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    You've made that decision based on 103 minutes of rugby, coming off injury, with Munster this season?

    He came off the bench against Leinster in Thomond, it's his first game since the RWC.
    He started at Ulster in a mix and match lineup where Munster ended up completely overwhelmed.

    His biggest issue by far has been his unavailability. He gets injured in training in January requiring surgery and then opts for another surgery on an existing problem. What has that got to do with the Munster coaches? Between Ireland and Munster he's played 218 minutes since August 2019.
    The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.


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    #5349
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Clegg wrote: »
    The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.

    Can you point to a player in recent years who got out of Munster, who did not get the best out of him, and went on to better things?

    "Quite a bit" is putting it mildly. In 2019/20 you could have had Graham Henry and Wayne Smith at Munster and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. So really we're only talking about 2018/19 with a different set of assistant coaches. That season Carbery was average at worst, with Castres away being a low point and Gloucester away a high point. He also missed six weeks that season through injury in the QF against Edinburgh.

    You could end up being correct but if Carbery doesn't work out injury and the lack of pitchtime will be a major reason why.


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    #5350
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,255 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Clegg wrote: »
    The point of my argument is that Munster lack the quality of coaching needed to develop Carbery's game. Yes, injuries have hampered his development quite a bit, but the bigger issue, for me, is the Munster system which does not get the best out of players such as he.

    But again. He's played exactly 103 minutes in that system. So how can you know this?

    Either that or you seem to be judging Carbery's development based on the performances of other players in the Munster system this season. I'll let you spot the issue with the logic there.


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    #5351
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Can you point to a player in recent years who got out of Munster, who did not get the best out of him, and went on to better things?

    "Quite a bit" is putting it mildly. In 2019/20 you could have had Graham Henry and Wayne Smith at Munster and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. So really we're only talking about 2018/19 with a different set of assistant coaches. That season Carbery was average at worst, with Castres away being a low point and Gloucester away a high point. He also missed six weeks that season through injury in the QF against Edinburgh.

    You could end up being correct but if Carbery doesn't work out injury and the lack of pitchtime will be a major reason why.

    It'll absolutely be a mix of those things. I don't dispute that at all. Tbf I alluded to that in my original post. Carbery's move hasn't gone the way anyone wanted through a mixture of injury and coaching.


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    #5352
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,255 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Clegg wrote: »
    It'll absolutely be a mix of those things. I don't dispute that at all. Tbf I alluded to that in my original post. Carbery's move hasn't gone the way anyone wanted through a mixture of injury and coaching.

    Look, it may turn out that way but he (and Larkham) deserve a fair crack of the whip. Above you said the bigger issue is the Munster system. The reality is he's played 103 minutes in that new system due to injury.

    It's premature to be pinning his lack of development on poor coaching when he has played so little under that new coach, is all I'm saying. (And for the good of the thread, I'll leave it there).


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    #5353
    theVersatile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Joey played fantastic rugby in his first season pre-rugby. Saying he has regressed for any reason other than injuries is outlandish.

    Also why is it that the Leinster Team Talk Thread for the last six or seven pages has focused on Stander, Carbery and Munster?


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    #5354
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    theVersatile wrote: »
    Joey played fantastic rugby in his first season pre-rugby. Saying he has regressed for any reason other than injuries is outlandish.

    Also why is it that the Leinster Team Talk Thread for the last six or seven pages has focused on Stander, Carbery and Munster?

    And Zebo


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    #5355
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    We could always talk about POM's decline as a player.

    Or how David Wallace isn't actually that handsome?


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    #5356
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Clegg wrote: »
    We could always talk about POM's decline as a player.

    Or how David Wallace isn't actually that handsome?

    Well, POM might have declined as a player but Wallace? That's just trolling


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    #5357
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    aloooof wrote: »
    Look, it may turn out that way but he (and Larkham) deserve a fair crack of the whip. Above you said the bigger issue is the Munster system. The reality is he's played 103 minutes in that new system due to injury.

    It's premature to be pinning his lack of development on poor coaching when he has played so little under that new coach, is all I'm saying. (And for the good of the thread, I'll leave it there).

    Munster didn't look to have much of a change of system this season tbh


    Carbery's issue is injuries though, stalled his progress for Leinster, missed out on opportunities with Ireland and is hurting him at Munster too.

    Whereas Ross Byrne, though less talented, is pretty much always fit and available.


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    #5358
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,187 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I honestly don't think Carbery has suffered from the move. His game hasn't leapt forward in the way that people hoped but he really hasn't had the opportunity to demonstrate his progress this year at all through no fault of his own.

    Admittedly, I didn't think he was a top outhalf when he departed, to be honest. I thought he was an excellent rugby player but never saw him as having the methodical coolness to be a great outhalf. Too many times, I see him jink one way and the other behind the gain line and get hit or shovel the ball on to a static player. When he has a pack driving forward and the defence retreating, he's excellent (Gloucester away being the perfect example). But when the opposition were meeting Munster/Leinster on the gain line and forcing them to be patient, make calm decisions and organise those outside him, I don't think he has ever excelled and I'm not sure he will be that player. He reminds me a hell of a lot of Ian Madigan in that way although I'd rate his kicking from hand more highly, comfortably.

    I will say that he has obviously has improved massively on his goal kicking. He was very average during his time at Leinster but has transformed this since joining Munster to where it's now the most impressive part of his game. If Larkham can work with him over a sustained period and impart some of his knowledge attacking coolness to Carbery, he could be a great 10.


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    #5359
    yerrahbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    Sale on Munster gear at the moment

    https://www.lifestylesports.com/ie/munster-rugby/?utm_source=munsterwebsite&utm_medium=menu&utm_campaign=menutop


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    #5360
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,255 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    AdamD wrote: »
    Munster didn't look to have much of a change of system this season tbh

    I respectfully disagree, tbh. Thought there was noticeably far more passes per phase, more looking to get the ball beyond the edge and more offloading overall.


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    #5361
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    aloooof wrote: »
    I respectfully disagree, tbh. Thought there was noticeably far more passes per phase, more looking to get the ball beyond the edge and more offloading overall.

    I know it was one match but someone (Murray K possibly) looked at the Munster/Leinster game in Thomond this season and found they didn't string 3 passes together once in the entire game. I'll try find the piece again.


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    #5362
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    yerrahbah wrote: »
    Sale on Munster gear at the moment

    https://www.lifestylesports.com/ie/munster-rugby/?utm_source=munsterwebsite&utm_medium=menu&utm_campaign=menutop

    Ryan Baird would look great in some of those.


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    #5363
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Clegg wrote: »
    We could always talk about POM's decline as a player.

    Or how David Wallace isn't actually that handsome?

    You take comment about Wally back right now!

    Also, Leinster thread?


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    #5364
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Ryan Baird would look great in some of those.

    Maybe for Halloween he’ll dress up as a fool


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    #5365
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Ryan Baird would look great in some of those.

    He'd look even better with a trophy though.


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    #5366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Looking forward to seeing Lowe in green if for no other reason than other provincial fans can finally enjoy his absolute nonsense. He really has been exceptional since coming to Leinster.


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    #5367
    Thrashssacre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Looking forward to seeing Lowe in green if for no other reason than other provincial fans can finally enjoy his absolute nonsense. He really has been exceptional since coming to Leinster.

    I honestly think the dynamism he will add to the backline could be vital in Ireland bouncing back as a national side, he's an absolute work horse too never stays still on the pitch.


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    #5368
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,779 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Looking forward to seeing Lowe in green if for no other reason than other provincial fans can finally enjoy his absolute nonsense. He really has been exceptional since coming to Leinster.

    I've a few reservations about Lowe in green. He can be very loose in his offloading game which could be punished by test level opposition. But when he's on his game there's no back 3 in Ireland with his ball playing skills. We've only just started the Farrell and Catt regime, but they seem willing to let the players play off the cuff.


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    #5369
    Scottmactom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 490 ✭✭Scottmactom


    Dan Leavy turned 26 today.

    Recently posted this: https://twitter.com/OutputSports/status/1261609028548997120?s=20


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    #5370
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Thrashssacre wrote: »
    I honestly think the dynamism he will add to the backline could be vital in Ireland bouncing back as a national side, he's an absolute work horse too never stays still on the pitch.

    He really is a workhorse and his nonsense is great. I think having an alternative and a replacement for Earls, is important. Nothing against Earls as he's a great player, but age catches up to them all. Honestly, I think he'll walk into the team when he's eligible at the end of the year. Stockdale is relying on reputation/potential rather than form, at the moment. I'd bet he'll return to form and fulfill his potential. But right now, Lowe would be the first winger on th teamsheet


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    #5371
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Scottmactom wrote: »
    Dan Leavy turned 26 today.

    Recently posted this: https://twitter.com/OutputSports/status/1261609028548997120?s=20

    What is he doing there? Straight leg hop?


This discussion has been closed.
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