Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2019/20

Your Airbag · 06-12-2019 5:09pm

Whatsisname wrote: »

This is my biggest problem with that argument. Do people think Woodward just decided who was going and Solskjaer had no role to play in it?

My impression is that Ole made most of the calls on who was going out and after his initial good start Woodward didn't have any objections but some players were going regardless of what Ole and Woodward wanted, like Herrera and Lukaku, both engineered moves away so its multifaceted. It wasn't one person pulling the trigger on each player going out and each situation has its own details.

I thought we would never see Smailling and Sanchez again but now Smalling looks certain to return.

xtal191 · 06-12-2019 5:26pm

Your Airbag wrote: »

My impression is that Ole made most of the calls on who was going out and after his initial good start Woodward didn't have any objections but some players were going regardless of what Ole and Woodward wanted, like Herrera and Lukaku, both engineered moves away so its multifaceted. It wasn't one person pulling the trigger on each player going out and each situation has its own details.

I thought we would never see Smailling and Sanchez again but now Smalling looks certain to return.

I'm guessing Sanchez will be coming back too, cant be many clubs in the world who'd want him with his wages. Unless UTD pay him off and let him leave on a free

beno619 · 06-12-2019 5:29pm

Your Airbag wrote: »

Herrera and Lukaku, both engineered moves away so its multifaceted.

You're correct that it is multifaceted. So lets try not to use simplistic terms like "engineering moves" to describe what happened with those players.

"But I cannot always look back and say this and this and this happened and Ole was not the right manager for me. I cannot do that. Me and Ole tried to work together but at one point I had to be honest with him. He was also honest with me. We found an agreement. I wanted to go. He understood why I wanted to go.

"It is something I will always be grateful to him for. We had a conversation man to man. I told him how I felt and he understood. He will always get massive respect from me and massive protection."

Romelu Lukaku: Inter Milan striker hits back at Gary Neville

Your Airbag · 06-12-2019 5:50pm

beno619 wrote: »

You're correct that it is multifaceted. So lets try not to use simplistic terms like "engineering moves" to describe what happened with those players.

Romelu Lukaku: Inter Milan striker hits back at Gary Neville

The article you posted literally quotes Lukaku saying I wanted to go.

beno619 · 06-12-2019 6:33pm

Your Airbag wrote: »

The article you posted literally quotes Lukaku saying I wanted to go.

:rolleyes:

Okay for anyone else open to reason/logic, we should ask ourselves why better players in the squad wanted to leave.

I'd question the chain of events the led to Lukaku coming to the conclusion that Inter Milan would be a step up, better chance at winning titles and an opportunity to move into the bracket of elite level forwards. I'm fairly sure thats why he joined United in the first place.

I'd imagine the manager telling him he prefers Martial and Rashford though the middle might have had some bearing on it.

BDI · 06-12-2019 6:40pm

beno619 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Okay for anyone else open to reason/logic, we should ask ourselves why better players in the squad wanted to leave.

I'd question the chain of events the led to Lukaku coming to the conclusion that Inter Milan would be a step up, better chance at winning titles and an opportunity to move into the bracket of elite level forwards. I'm fairly sure thats why he joined United in the first place.

I'd imagine the manager telling him he prefers Martial and Rashford though the middle might have had some bearing on it.

His wages didn’t match his input. He wanted to be the big fish. If Milan will pay him the same as united and treat him like a god and build the team to his strengths he will go. Titles and all that are secondary to these YouTube marketing players.

The vast majority wanted that culture done away with. They wanted these overpaid highlight reels moved on and a team of hard workers built. This is what we are getting. We beat Jose with the team poch built and jumped up to 5th or 6th and not even two days later people are blaming ole again.

The manager needs huge support to get what he wants in the transfer market this winter. If Woodward sniffs a chance he will give ole nothing and sack him in February saying he offered him mandzukic but ole wouldn’t take him.

adox · 06-12-2019 7:10pm

The manager needs sacking. That’s what he needs.

Weepsie · 06-12-2019 7:18pm

BDI wrote: »

The vast majority wanted that culture done away with. They wanted these overpaid highlight reels moved on and a team of hard workers built. This is what we are getting. We beat Jose with the team poch built and jumped up to 5th or 6th and not even two days later people are blaming ole again.

.

Of course he's being blamed. If previous managers got blamed for less woeful form, so should he. So what he beat spurs, he lost to Astana, Bournemouth, Palace, and a host of others while scraping draws against newly promoted teams.

They've been dire for months. He is tactically inept on the face of things. Positivity, and running are not enough.

bucketybuck · 06-12-2019 7:43pm

Weepsie wrote: »

If previous managers got blamed for less woeful form, so should he.

I actually find it interesting how little comment is made about Oles record since March.

I mean, sure, people mention that record and how United aren't doing well, but if you didn't know the numbers you would think it was just more of the same, just poor in big club terms, like Madrid doing poor when they drop to 3rd, that sort of thing. Still winning far more games than they lose. Still challenging for top four.

But its not "big club poor", it is "big club ****ing atrocious". Its only 12 wins in 32 games as manager. Its only five wins in 15 games this season, 22 points behind Liverpool at the start of December! There was a phrase in American politics that compared Clinton to Trump in terms of Clinton being wrong but "wrong within normal parameters".

Well this is Manchester United, biggest and richest club in the world, never ever could I have envisaged Manchester goddamn United being in a state where they are only winning a game every one in three. They are not just poor, they are poor way, way beyond any normal parameters for a club of this size.

And yet you don't hear that stressed nearly enough. People should be shouting from the ****ing rooftops about consistently losing to the ****e teams Solskjaer consistently loses too, but we don't.

Have his mates in the media got a lot to answer for, or are people not believing their own eyes and pretending that he hasn't firmly rooted the club into midtable? I don't know, but I do know this isn't normal.

PARlance · 06-12-2019 8:14pm

damowill wrote: »

ive been misinterpreted slightly. i didnt say you cant judge him, i said very hard to judge.... (whether he is a good manager or not, and whether he is up to the task at hand) .. its difficult to say with any certainty because this squad would make Fergie look bad. This isnt a top 4 squad and i dont think its even top6. In the last 6 years, we have had better squads and our average league position has only been 5th. Are we under achieving this year? As a club Yes we are, but is this squad under achieving? I would say results should have been better but not by much.

There are a lot of people in the Ole in and a lot more in the Ole Out brigade. I am neither as yet. Results have been fairly poor. 5 PL wins isnt good enough but i also feel he wasnt backed properly when we needed at the very least 5 players in the summer. You either back a manager or you dont. but Woodward and the Glazers were only glad to see the back of some of those high earners without replacing them.

If a new manager comes in, he is stuck with this lot until at least the summer... this squad has some decent players but its possibly the worst ive seen 1990. I dont think even Pep or Klopp would manage them to great heights

Andreas Pereira has started 12 PL games this year. That says it all. He wouldnt get in any other PL team imo. The fact is he hasnt improved and likely wont. But there is no alternative to Pereira. Its not like we have Jaden Sancho warming the bench.
McTominay has become our saviour in midfield all of a sudden but was lambasted by many fans last year. Dan James has unexpectedly been over used and we dont have a no10 of any worth. And Fred = ?

I'm in the same camp, but leaning to the Ole In side. I've always said he should be given 18 months and backed by the Board. Has he been backed? In the most part, yes. I think not getting a striker in to replace Lukaku was as much down to Ole as the Board.

But in general, I'm ok with the thin squad despiste the problems it has caused. We've learned a lot from cutting to the bone. To focus on midfield alone:
McTominay looks to be good enough to be a starter for years.
Fred looks like he can play ball and ideally can be a valuable (and costly) squad player.
Pereira isn't up to standard.
We wouldn't have learned this if we had "replaced" the midfielders that people were looking to be replaced.

Matic has been frozen out despite the thin squad, I thought he would have more of a role to play but I like the fact that Ole has obviously made up his mind about him.

I'm quite happy with what I've seen this year. Some results and performances haven't been as wanted but overall there seems a much better attitude and signs that progress is being made.

If (assuming Pogba stays) we can get a top quality 10, striker, RW and DM over the Jan and Summer windows then I would be very happy and I think Ole would certainly be good enough to get top 4 with that. Is Ole a great manager that can win leagues etc? We won't know until he has the squad to do so, but even if he isn't that person, I'm confident he will leave the club in a much better place than when he took over in it.

bucketybuck · 06-12-2019 8:19pm

PARlance wrote: »

I'm quite happy with what I've seen this year. Some results and performances haven't been as wanted but overall there seems a much better attitude and signs that progress is being made.

I don't even know what to say to that, except thanks for illustrating the point I had been making, I guess.

beno619 · 06-12-2019 8:58pm

PARlance wrote: »

Matic has been frozen out despite the thin squad, I thought he would have more of a role to play but I like the fact that Ole has obviously made up his mind about him.

I'm quite happy with what I've seen this year. Some results and performances haven't been as wanted but overall there seems a much better attitude and signs that progress is being made.

Matic has been injured.

:eek: Completely disagree on the second paragraph quoted, I mean where do you start.

Lord TSC · 06-12-2019 10:03pm

I keep seeing this crop up, that the "attitude" has improved?

The absolute **** it has. Against big teams, they up their game, but their attitude is still awful against mid to lower teams. We come up against relegation fodder and the players look like they can't be bothered most of the game. Especially when they come against a deep defence.

Headshot · 06-12-2019 10:09pm

Smalling has been very good, he's found he's level it seems

PARlance · 06-12-2019 10:13pm

Lord TSC wrote: »

I keep seeing this crop up, that the "attitude" has improved?

The absolute **** it has. Against big teams, they up their game, but their attitude is still awful against mid to lower teams. We come up against relegation fodder and the players look like they can't be bothered most of the game. Especially when they come against a deep defence.

We don't have a creative player/10 to unlock a deep defence. And for a large part, we didn't have a 9/Rashford suited to playing such teams. It's this lack of ability, rather than attitude, that is causing us to struggle against teams that sit back.

S.M.B. · 06-12-2019 10:24pm

8/1 seems like long enough odds for us to win tomorrow. Maybe I'm deluded.

PARlance · 06-12-2019 10:25pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't even know what to say to that, except thanks for illustrating the point I had been making, I guess.

Well you can shout from the rooftops all you want but the squad we have isn't going to be the big team you want them to be anytime soon. And no manager could deliver that instantly imo.

My point is not that Ole is the manager to deliver the good times, but given what I've seen so far, he is doing things the right way, for the most part. I think he'll definitely improve the squad with the players I want to see at the club. Last summer was a real glimmer of hope. Not as much as I had hoped for, but a good start.

I have no expectations over the next 18 months, other than getting back to CL football and seeing a better squad built. Then we might be in the position to really compete again if improvements and more good signings are made. It may well be the case that a better manager has to come in to evelvate it to that level, but you might as well jump from that rooftop, if you think we're challenging for anything with the players at our disposal at present.

DM_7 · 06-12-2019 11:11pm

PARlance wrote: »

Well you can shout from the rooftops all you want but the squad we have isn't going to be the big team you want them to be anytime soon. And no manager could deliver that instantly imo.

My point is not that Ole is the manager to deliver the good times, but given what I've seen so far, he is doing things the right way, for the most part. I think he'll definitely improve the squad with the players I want to see at the club. Last summer was a real glimmer of hope. Not as much as I had hoped for, but a good start.

I have no expectations over the next 18 months, other than getting back to CL football and seeing a better squad built. Then we might be in the position to really compete again if improvements and more good signings are made. It may well be the case that a better manager has to come in to evelvate it to that level, but you might as well jump from that rooftop, if you think we're challenging for anything with the players at our disposal at present.

I agree with a lot of what your saying.

United need to bring in new players like they did last summer as well as find out who is up to the task.

While we are seeing Rashford and McT respond we are seeing others like Shaw struggle. Matic and Jones shown to be of little purpose.

I think it is a good point that Ole may not be able to get United to the very top but perhaps he has the care and attention to detail, focus on the initial job required?

He still needs to get the team functioning better overall if his work is to be viewed as the correct path and direction.

beno619 · 07-12-2019 12:20am

PARlance wrote: »

Well you can shout from the rooftops all you want but the squad we have isn't going to be the big team you want them to be anytime soon. And no manager could deliver that instantly imo.

He's been in the job for a year. The football is ****e 80% of the performances have been the worst post Fergie. The results are the worst since Fergie I believe.

There are managers out there that could produce football with a purpose and plan.

How long should we have to wait to see tangible progress ?

Strumms · 07-12-2019 12:32am

beno619 wrote: »

PARlance wrote: »

Well you can shout from the rooftops all you want but the squad we have isn't going to be the big team you want them to be anytime soon. And no manager could deliver that instantly imo.

/quote]

He's been in the job for a year. The football is ****e 80% of the performances have been the worst post Fergie. The results are the worst since Fergie I believe.

There are managers out there that could produce football with a purpose and plan.

How long should we have to wait to see tangible progress ?

I’d say max 18 months, so towards the end of the season have a review... if Champions League is not getable again, it’s good luck.

He and the team were doing brilliantly last season, set for CL but finished up only accruing 2 out of the last 15 points available.... that’s ridiculous thats suicidal, that’s pure relegation form.

We were one of only 4 teams in the league not to win even a single game out of our last 5 fixtures. That’s what ultimately slayed us, we finished 5 points off 4th.

BDI · 07-12-2019 1:27am

Weepsie wrote: »

Of course he's being blamed. If previous managers got blamed for less woeful form, so should he. So what he beat spurs, he lost to Astana, Bournemouth, Palace, and a host of others while scraping draws against newly promoted teams.

They've been dire for months. He is tactically inept on the face of things. Positivity, and running are not enough.

He is tactically inept yet he beat Jose and got a draw from Klopp with clear tactics. How many people drew with Liverpool this year. Beat lampard twice. He lacks a battering ram and a player who can create chaos in a packed defence. That is all.

Two/three years of ole then 20 years of glory.

Weepsie · 07-12-2019 1:55am

That isn't all. And it doesn't deserve much of a response, but the evidence over months of matches, inept displays, clueless substitutions, poor squad management, poor player rotation, poor injury assessment, his nonsense quotes about nearly being there when getting woefully outplayed, playing 3 at the back at Sheffield, dropping against 10 man Southampton amongst so many other things.

You could make the same type of excuse you're making for the previous 2 managers, but they had some sort of success at least.

The football is dire, it's no better than it was last year. The defence still looks like it hasn't a clue, midfield is worse than ever, and if Rashford weren't in a good run of form who knows how worse it would be.

The good games are very much the exception. His tactics and transfers at Cardiff were nonsense too, so it's not as if it's a surprise

Backstreet Moyes · 07-12-2019 8:23am

BDI wrote: »

He is tactically inept yet he beat Jose and got a draw from Klopp with clear tactics. How many people drew with Liverpool this year. Beat lampard twice. He lacks a battering ram and a player who can create chaos in a packed defence. That is all.

Two/three years of ole then 20 years of glory.

He played Pogba who was not fully fit and returning from injury in a league cup game and he has missed months

That tells you all you need to know about his team management skills

He lacks a battering ram you mean like Fellaini who he was happy to get rid of and imo cost us top 4 last year

PARlance · 07-12-2019 10:49am

Nuts102 wrote: »

He played Pogba who was not fully fit and returning from injury in a league cup game and he has missed months

That tells you all you need to know about his team management skills

He lacks a battering ram you mean like Fellaini who he was happy to get rid of and imo cost us top 4 last year

A battering ram.... at United. No words for that but you might be better suited to supporting Burnley or waiting on Big Sam's next appointment.

I don't know how you can say Fellaini cost us top 4, he was there under Jose when he got the bullet and a challenge for Top 4 looked remote. I can't fault Fellaini during his time with us, professional and dug us out on plenty of occasions but that said, a part of the United in me died the day he was signed. He's not a United player imo, not the type I want at the club anyway.

As for the Pogba injury, such a basic dig for the sake of a dig. It's always a gamble of sorts returning a player from injury and a Cup game can be a good time to introduce someone back. By all means criticise actual management decisions, tactics, substitutions etc. Ole like all other managers would have been going on the medical teams recommendations.

bucketybuck · 07-12-2019 11:10am

PARlance wrote: »

A battering ram.... at United. No words for that but you might be better suited to supporting Burnley or waiting on Big Sam's next appointment.

In fairness, you are the lad who thinks Manchester United sitting in mid table is ok because we learnt a bit about our midfielders, when any half competent coach would have learnt the same after about ten minutes of training.

But in general, I'm ok with the thin squad despiste the problems it has caused. We've learned a lot from cutting to the bone. To focus on midfield alone:
McTominay looks to be good enough to be a starter for years.
Fred looks like he can play ball and ideally can be a valuable (and costly) squad player.
Pereira isn't up to standard.
We wouldn't have learned this if we had "replaced" the midfielders that people were looking to be replaced

5 wins from 15 but it is ok because we learned a lot about Fred and Pereira? Give over, what we supposedly "learned" is what 99% of people would have told you about those players a year ago.

I'm not trying to be combatative but really, this isn't Haversham under 15's we are talking about here, its the biggest and richest club in the world, the management need to do better than this, they need to be better than just some blokes trying to figure out if their players are any good or not.

Thats not shouting from the rooftops, thats a simple reality.

Lord TSC · 07-12-2019 11:43am

bucketybuck wrote: »

, its the biggest and richest club in the world

I actually think a LOT of United fans really fail to grasp that and the implications of what it should mean in terms of expectations.

Its not that we cannot afford the very best backroom staff, at every level of the club. From a Director of Football down to the lunch ladies, the likes of Amazon, Microsoft....the best of the best, the richest of the richest will stock their businesses with the very best in their fields.

Yet there exists a sizable base of United fans who would rather defend the fact we appoint important roles based on nostalgia, rather than qualification. We don't act like we're the richest club in the world, making sure that the stadium is a state of the art grounds, that our academy is the most lucrative in the world.

We act like a midtable team. We talk about buying players with high resale value, about developing kids rather than paying big fees. And the standards have slipped each year too; we've gone from being dominant champions to settling for mid-table cause "the attitudes are ok".

There's a solid base of sycophants who , being honest, the club has taken advantage of, because those fans are desperate to be seen as the best fans in the world. Meanwhile, Real Madrid, Barca, PSG, Bayern, Juventus....they are ruthless from top to bottom, have fans who demand the very best, and have forced the club to maintain high standards.

Woodward is a massive issue. But there's a huge issue with United with regards the fans who haven't just let standards slip, they've welcomed it.

BDI · 07-12-2019 11:44am

bucketybuck wrote: »

In fairness, you are the lad who thinks Manchester United sitting in mid table is ok because we learnt a bit about our midfielders, when any half competent coach would have learnt the same after about ten minutes of training.

5 wins from 15 but it is ok because we learned a lot about Fred and Pereira? Give over, what we supposedly "learned" is what 99% of people would have told you about those players a year ago.

I'm not trying to be combatative but really, this isn't Haversham under 15's we are talking about here, its the biggest and richest club in the world, the management need to do better than this, they need to be better than just some blokes trying to figure out if their players are any good or not.

Thats not shouting from the rooftops, thats a simple reality.

6-3-2 from the last 11 games and one of them was away to Astana with children, not the academy the nursery.performances are still getting better.

He is punching above his weight with this squad. Will be sitting in fifth comfortably in the next ten games and pushing for 4 th if he gets backing with transfers.

Next year ole will be comfortable in top 4 and then I expect him to push for title or have a squad ready for somebody else to come in and win the title.

adox · 07-12-2019 11:48am

“Punching above his weight with this squad”

Absolutely laughable.

Weepsie · 07-12-2019 12:03pm

BDI wrote: »

6-3-2 from the last 11 games and one of them was away to Astana with children, not the academy the nursery.performances are still getting better.

He is punching above his weight with this squad. Will be sitting in fifth comfortably in the next ten games and pushing for 4 th if he gets backing with transfers.

Next year ole will be comfortable in top 4 and then I expect him to push for title or have a squad ready for somebody else to come in and win the title.

Performances are lurching from okay to absolute dogsh!t to okay to good back to absolute dogsh!t

Those 6 wins. 1 against Norwich, 2 against Partizan, beating Chelsea's 2nd team with a lot of our first, and Brighton. Spurs was a good victory, but it's still more of a 1 off than any type of indicator of form.

Why not include the previous 11 games, 3 wins, some awful losses and lucky draws.

BDI · 07-12-2019 12:08pm

adox wrote: »

“Punching above his weight with this squad”

Absolutely laughable.

He beat Jose’s spurs with Fred, McTominay and lingard in the middle. Ashley young at left back. Greenwood on the wing and Rashford playing “out of position”

Why do people dislike club legend ole? There is two levels to this. Those that think a better manager would do a better job and then those that have a level of hate that if he won the next 20 games would still be finding fault in an interview he gave or the colour of his suit.

Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2019/20

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