Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2020/21- Mod Notes OP [06/11/20]

01-11-2020 9:51pm

We haven't won a league game at Old Trafford since v Bournemouth on July 4th.

That's 1 win in 6 league games at home from July to today.

Barring that Bournemouth result and a 3-0 against Sheffield United in June, our form at home has been shocking in the league post-lockdown.

KH25 · 01-11-2020 10:31pm

There was no sense of urgency about the play today until arsenal scored. It’s like the team is being sent out to just try not to lose rather than attempting to win the game.

Lord TSC · 01-11-2020 10:33pm

KH25 wrote: »

There was no sense of urgency about the play today until arsenal scored. It’s like the team is being sent out to just try not to lose rather than attempting to win the game.

Was the same vs Chelsea. Like we were happy to take a 0-0

Meanwhile, in Europe, it’s like we feel a draw isn’t enough, we need to win. And that installs a confidence and swagger.

In the league, we look like we are not wanting to try too hard, for fear of getting another thumping.

robarmstrong · 01-11-2020 10:39pm

Pogba needs to go.

He cost the club over 100m euros. If a player does not play to his price tag as a bare minimum, he needs to go, simple as. Carra also said that he doesn't think Pogba is a great player, that he's a great talent, and he is absolutely right. Pogba is not a great player. I have no idea why he remained on the pitch tonight.

Ole has done well with trying to get rid of the deadwood that was previously left and in fairness to him he has tried hard to get rid of more, but Pogba needs to be axed, if I was manager of Manchester United, a club rich in success and history, I would be going straight to the board with my intent to sell Paul Pogba. The club paid a fortune for him and he's been nothing more than inconsistent. I can't see Ole going to Ed and saying "I know he's a marquee signing, but I expect him to play like a 100m euro player at the very least whenever I play him, he doesn't, so I'd like to test the waters and see who would be open to signing him".

Pogba aside - it was a flat performance, nobody seeming to want to stand up and take the game by the scruff and watching Lindelof in the final minutes make a run with the ball, look for a teammate and have nobody open themselves up to him, loses the ball and then starts screaming at his teammates just made me sad. Our tactics go from being absolutely spot on one game to being woeful the next and that is not the sign of a top class manager, I loved Ole the player, but I don't love Ole the manager. He is a tactical liability and we cannot afford to have form like this.

Rossi IRL · 01-11-2020 10:41pm

Drumpot wrote: »

V Brighton Pogba taken off VDB comes on and plays well we win

Agree that Pogba should be dropped completely but no need to make things up.

Pogba off at 65th ish min when winning. VDB on at 90th min.

Backstreet Moyes · 01-11-2020 10:50pm

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Agree that Pogba should be dropped completely but no need to make things up.

Pogba off at 65th ish min when winning. VDB on at 90th min.

Did VDB breaks his balls to win the corner for the winner something Pogba hasn't done in 3 or 4 years dunno how long he is strolling around

JP Liz V1 · 01-11-2020 11:08pm

patmac wrote: »

Today’s result, the weather and especially the news about Bobby Charlton is making it a very depressing day.

Sir Bobby Charlton has been diagnosed with dementia

01-11-2020 11:15pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Keane has been pretty consistent though, he isn't one to always blame the manager and it was a long time ago now when he made the comment that these players threw Jose under the bus and they will do the same to Ole, leopards don't change their spots.

I do agree on this. Nor am I disputing this to be clear. Just there is more than one problem. 3 in total.

1 we can do **** all about. The owners and Woodward and we have known this for years.

2 problems that can be sorted.

yourdeadwright · 01-11-2020 11:16pm

Lord TSC wrote: »

Was the same vs Chelsea. Like we were happy to take a 0-0

Meanwhile, in Europe, it’s like we feel a draw isn’t enough, we need to win. And that installs a confidence and swagger.

In the league, we look like we are not wanting to try too hard, for fear of getting another thumping.

Its more to do with the opposition,

Leipzig and PSG attcked United openly, Chelsea & Arsenal did not,
United strongest weapon is the counter attack Chelsea & Arsenal took that away by being pragmatic Leipzig & PSG where not respectful of United attack and paid the price,

You cant just open up againt United they will hurt you Prem teams have coped this & try to take away United coubter attack

United had more possession in the Chelsea & Arsenal games than the two champions leauge games, it shows they struggle when they cant counter quickly,

Even in there 5-0 hammering of Leipzig they had less of the ball than Leipzig

Whatsisname · 01-11-2020 11:22pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its more to do with the opposition,

Leipzig and PSG attcked United openly, Chelsea & Arsenal did not,
United strongest weapon is the counter attack Chelsea & Arsenal took that away by being pragmatic Leipzig & PSG where not respectful of United attack and paid the price,

You cant just open up againt United they will hurt you Prem teams have coped this & try to take away United coubter attack

United had more possession in the Chelsea & Arsenal games than the two champions leauge games, it shows they struggle when they cant counter quickly,

Even in there 5-0 hammering of Leipzig they had less of the ball than Leipzig

Arsenal had us pinned back for large parts of the game, we couldn’t get out of our own half pretty much all of the first half. They were not what I’d describe as pragmatic, they just pressed the life outta us and tactical fouled if we tried to counter. They weren’t afraid to attack us.

01-11-2020 11:25pm

Whatsisname wrote: »

Arsenal had us pinned back for large parts of the game, we couldn’t get out of our own half pretty much all of the first half. They were not what I’d describe as pragmatic, they just pressed the life outta us and tactical fouled if we tried to counter. They weren’t afraid to attack us.

They didn't even have to press hard they were just incredibly well drilled at how we were going to pass, I guess our passion lanes are very obvious or something.. Like as yiu said we couldn't eveb get into. The final. Third playing it out short from. The back first half.

Twas an anniliation of a 0 0

StringerBell · 01-11-2020 11:26pm

Lord TSC wrote: »

Was the same vs Chelsea. Like we were happy to take a 0-0

Meanwhile, in Europe, it’s like we feel a draw isn’t enough, we need to win. And that installs a confidence and swagger.

In the league, we look like we are not wanting to try too hard, for fear of getting another thumping.

I think its how we set up and how the teams in England know us better than the Europeans. We are more often than not set up to try to catch teams on the counter, when the other team is happy to let us have the ball that doesn't work so well, when a team comes and has a proper go it gives us more of a chance of breaking their lines and nicking one, then two, then three as they commit more players forward.

Edit: Should point out, I don't think that really happened tonight so much I think Arsenal were happy enough to go toe to toe with us and both teams actually cancelled each other out in a way, De Gea didn't have a whole lot to do and neither did Leno. I mean our tactics in a more general sense, we set up as the underdog looking to catch teams out on the break, which has its merits but can't be the only tactic we actually have.

Drumpot · 01-11-2020 11:30pm

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Agree that Pogba should be dropped completely but no need to make things up.

Pogba off at 65th ish min when winning. VDB on at 90th min.

I didn’t make anything up, I just got that bit wrong.

At this stage I’ve actually nothing against Pogba. He’s just as stuck with us as we are with him, he’s tried to leave several time’s, why should any of us be surprised that he looks like an unhappy player?. Whether it’s Ole or Poch or Jose or whoever, Woodward doesn’t want to sell another failed star because of how it will reflect on him. People need to start seeing this, Woodward consistently undermines managers and his poisoned agenda persistently seeps into all United squads. Whether it’s big names that fail, players bought for the sake of it, Continually failing to get top transfer targets And the retention and contract extensions of players not good enough or who nobody wants. The club has failed every manager we have had and as such has failed the fans.

Backstreet Moyes · 01-11-2020 11:30pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its more to do with the opposition,

Leipzig and PSG attcked United openly, Chelsea & Arsenal did not,
United strongest weapon is the counter attack Chelsea & Arsenal took that away by being pragmatic Leipzig & PSG where not respectful of United attack and paid the price,

You cant just open up againt United they will hurt you Prem teams have coped this & try to take away United coubter attack

United had more possession in the Chelsea & Arsenal games than the two champions leauge games, it shows they struggle when they cant counter quickly,

Even in there 5-0 hammering of Leipzig they had less of the ball than Leipzig

53% possession today what dominance

StringerBell · 01-11-2020 11:33pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I didn’t make anything up, I just got that bit wrong.

At this stage I’ve actually nothing against Pogba. He’s just as stuck with us as we are with him, he’s tried to leave several time’s, why should any of us be surprised that he looks like an unhappy player?. Whether it’s Ole or Poch or Jose or whoever, Woodward doesn’t want to sell another failed star because of how it will reflect on him. People need to start seeing this, Woodward consistently undermines managers and his poisoned agenda persistently seeps into all United squads. Whether it’s big names that fail, players bought for the sake of it, Continually failing to get top transfer targets And the retention and contract extensions of players not good enough or who nobody wants.

People do see the issues with Woodward, I mean even in this thread it has been done time and time again for more than one or two seasons at this point so I'm not sure where the people need to start seeing this comes from?

Ole being not up to scratch has been obvious from a very very long time ago, it doesn't negate any of the issues with Woodward and it doesn't further anything to pretend like Ole isn't an issue too, not to mention some of the playing squad.

Oh yeah, my major gripe with the post sorry - how can you have nothing against Pogba at this stage? Does he not have some kind of responsibility to do his job or declare himself unavailable for selection? Does he have no sense of personal pride? Professional pride? You don't need a manager to motivate you, you don't need to be told with his level of experience what the basics of his position is and his responsibilities on a football pitch and 9 times out of 10 he could not give a flying ****. That comes from inside him because we all know he can do it when he is motivated. Forget the supposed star player world class talent angle, why isn't he held to a basic level of commitment that you would surely expect and be critical of if it wasn't displayed on any member of the squad who pulls on the jersey to represent the club?

yourdeadwright · 01-11-2020 11:35pm

Whatsisname wrote: »

Arsenal had us pinned back for large parts of the game, we couldn’t get out of our own half pretty much all of the first half. They were not what I’d describe as pragmatic, they just pressed the life outta us and tactical fouled if we tried to counter. They weren’t afraid to attack us.

You can do both they played Partey & Elneny in fornt of the 2 CB, They attacked in small number
There defensive shape/structure is there strognest attribute under Arteta,

It not by luck United had two wins in Paris, and multiple wins aginst City under Ole, Two teams who wont change there style against anyone, Take Uniteds counter attack away and you take away there biggest threat

As i said look at the last two home Prem games Chelsea & Arsenal United where set up like the away side to use there counter attack, The games had little chances es because Chelsea ea & Arsenal didnt bite and remained some what cautious themselves

Drumpot · 01-11-2020 11:43pm

StringerBell wrote: »

People do see the issues with Woodward, I mean even in this thread it has been done time and time again for more than one or two seasons at this point so I'm not sure where the people need to start seeing this comes from?

Ole being not up to scratch has been obvious from a very very long time ago, it doesn't negate any of the issues with Woodward and it doesn't further anything to pretend like Ole isn't an issue too, not to mention some of the playing squad.

Very often you see “Woodward is not picking the team” and something like that. Hes having a much bigger influence then people give him credit. Ole was never top notch. But neither is pelligrini, Mancini or any Barcalona manager the last few years but that didn’t stop city and Barca winning leagues. I’d argue any half decent coach should be able to manage a club of United’s stature to top 3 every season quite easily , if the club was run even remotely half competently.

Most well run clubs see benefits of trying out new managers, we see supposedly required rebuilds, it’s pathetic. Trying to apply normal criteria “new better manager improves club” is just setting yourself up for a big fall. I wouldn’t be surprised if Poch was appointed purely to appease fans, that’s a massive problem because it once again confirms there is no plan at the club, throw sh*t at a wall and see what sticks.

I guess I don’t understand how anybody can think a new manager signals anything different when they at the same time know they most likely cycle and timeframe at which the club will inevitably let the manager down which starts the dragged out sacking.

Drumpot · 01-11-2020 11:47pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Oh yeah, my major gripe with the post sorry - how can you have nothing against Pogba at this stage? Does he not have some kind of responsibility to do his job or declare himself unavailable for selection? Does he have no sense of personal pride? Professional pride? You don't need a manager to motivate you, you don't need to be told with his level of experience what the basics of his position is and his responsibilities on a football pitch and 9 times out of 10 he could not give a flying ****. That comes from inside him because we all know he can do it when he is motivated. Forget the supposed star player world class talent angle, why isn't he held to a basic level of commitment that you would surely expect and be critical of if it wasn't displayed on any member of the squad who pulls on the jersey to represent the club?

You confuse me not having anything against him with some sort of defence of what we have gotten from him. I’ve been a consistently harsh critic of his, particularly when he contributed significantly to Jose being sacked.

But he’s wanted to leave for years, it’s not his fault he’s stuck at United. It’s not Oles fault or Jose’s fault. What’s the point in getting angry at a player who wants to leave when it’s the owners forcing him to stay, forcing the manager to play him and who refuse to sell him. Yeh he could react differently and show some pride but he’s a perfect example of the damage being done to the club by the owners who interfere with the first team by failing to change our recruitment policy.

I still harbour delusional hope that fans try to rise up against the owners or at least force them to sack Woodward and change the way it’s run. But it’s No less Delusional then believing a manager can come into the club and make the cluster f*ck way it’s run work.

Weepsie · 02-11-2020 12:02am

Drumpot wrote: »

You confuse me not having anything against him with some sort of defence of what we have gotten from him. I’ve been a consistently harsh critic of his, particularly when he contributed significantly to Jose being sacked.

But he’s wanted to leave for years, it’s not his fault he’s stuck at United. It’s not Oles fault or Jose’s fault. What’s the point in getting angry at a player who wants to leave when it’s the owners forcing him to stay, forcing the manager to play him and who refuse to sell him. Yeh he could react differently and show some pride but he’s a perfect example of the damage being done to the club by the owners who interfere with the first team by failing to change our recruitment policy.

I still harbour delusional hope that fans try to rise up against the owners or at least force them to sack Woodward and change the way it’s run. But it’s No less Delusional then believing a manager can come into the club and make the cluster f*ck way it’s run work.

No-one is forcing him to say, that's bs.

No-one is willing to pay what they would deem an acceptable amount.

He has a poisonous agent which doesn't help things. All of the interest from Real, Barca, Juve is make believe. It's agents feeding sh1te to papers.

If he really wanted to leave, he'd apply himself , put in consistent shifts and make himself an attractive proposition for other clubs.

Bleating Lamb · 02-11-2020 12:37am

Feckin sickening to see Partey leading our midfielders a merry dance all game today.
Utd were meant to be ‘in for him’ last year,never mind this year!:(

Was same story with Fabinho well before he signed for Liverpool ....why do we rarely seem to sign our targets?

If we had signed either of them we could afford to have likes of Maguire and Lindelof CB as they would be protected,Fred and Mc Tominay are good honest gutsy players but lack that touch of class needed to play at the top level.

Depressing watching another target Reguilon put in a great cross with his right foot for Bales winner v Brighton.
Our left back Shaw never uses his right foot which makes him very predictable to mark when he is trying to cross the ball.

Fed up with the whole set up at moment.

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 12:39am

Weepsie wrote: »

No-one is forcing him to say, that's bs.

No-one is willing to pay what they would deem an acceptable amount.

He has a poisonous agent which doesn't help things. All of the interest from Real, Barca, Juve is make believe. It's agents feeding sh1te to papers.

If he really wanted to leave, he'd apply himself , put in consistent shifts and make himself an attractive proposition for other clubs.

We have had plenty of opportunities to sell him, we refused to the last 3 summers (maybe nobody could afford him this summer but that’s our own fault). Plenty of players down tools to get the move they want, they don’t all act like Coutinho, difference was that He had no leverage with Woodward who doesn’t give two sh^ts how pogba plays. Most top clubs would offload an under performing star, we have no football ambition so pogba had nothing to threaten Woodward with.

Zeek12 · 02-11-2020 12:58am

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Feckin sickening to see Partey leading our midfielders a merry dance all game today.
Utd were meant to be ‘in for him’ last year,never mind this year!:(

Was same story with Fabinho well before he signed for Liverpool ....why do we rarely seem to sign our targets?

If we had signed either of them we could afford to have likes of Maguire and Lindelof CB as they would be protected,Fred and Mc Tominay are good honest gutsy players but lack that touch of class needed to play at the top level.

Depressing watching another target Reguilon put in a great cross with his right foot for Bales winner v Brighton.
Our left back Shaw never uses his right foot which makes him very predictable to mark when he is trying to cross the ball.

Fed up with the whole set up at moment.

Partey could have been signed for pretty much what VDB cost. And while I don't object to Donny joining us as such, surely a DM was a higher priority this summer.

But trying to apply logic doesn't work when it comes to our transfer policy.
Probably 27 year old Partey was considered too old by those who make these decisions.

Yet we're quite content to bring in 30-something strikers.
On loan.

Lord TSC · 02-11-2020 1:02am

Whatsisname wrote: »

Arsenal had us pinned back for large parts of the game, we couldn’t get out of our own half pretty much all of the first half. They were not what I’d describe as pragmatic, they just pressed the life outta us and tactical fouled if we tried to counter. They weren’t afraid to attack us.

Yeap, I’d agree with this.

Most of the first half, we were passing it round our back line, before eventually passing it to DDG to hoof up to Rashford. For whatever reason, our midfield was getting bypassed.

I’d also agree we struggle against teams that let us keep the ball, but Arsenal today was a very different issue.

02-11-2020 4:34am

Nothing really too bad said about ole on the post match analysis but the pressure is starting to build on him, there was a bit if dancing around it from keane and Redknapp and it was cloaked in niceties but it's the first time I've seen it since he has been at the club where the mainstream media is starting to turn.

Brendan Flowers · 02-11-2020 9:19am

I like both Fred and McTominay. Obviously they didn't have great games yesterday, especially McTominay. The 2 of them do seem to work best in a 4-2-3-1 system. And that's the problem. 2 players are needed for a role that a world class DM should be able to cover on his own. On his day Matic can be the answer to that problem. But he's very much a short term solution at this stage of his career. This is an absolute priority position to fill in one of the next 2 transfer windows.

The_Kew_Tour · 02-11-2020 9:51am

Any club with a ounce of ambition would have sacked manager after yesterday.

For everything he gets right(like midweek) he gets it so wrong and so badly wrong and does not seem learn from his own mistakes.

Plus fact he has kept faith with certain footballers who have let him down time and again.

We are 15th in table with at best 12th if win game in hand and few goals. The season looks already over before it began.

8 seasons since our last league title and this is our 7th where its over within first two months.

No trophy in 3 years, bet the house it being 4 if Ole stays. We used to pity Arsenal, now they have shot past us and we lag behind.

I was in the small minority that thought Ole deserved this season, but it's been a spectacular failure in the league. I must have been drinking some strong whiskey.

I'm not even angry. Its just a shrugging the shoulders now, you get used to it. Would be nice though to actually deliver for one season every so often. At least they pretend that club wants to least complete for say Europa league or league Cup.

I have Spurs fans taking piss out if me. I mean Spurs. Finally hit rock bottom.

Zeek12 · 02-11-2020 10:39am

Sacking the manager may well effect some improvements. But they will be short term imo.
Even if Poch or someone like him can be tempted by the job (and with these owners there's no guarantee he'd even want it), the same cycle of managers being let down by Woodward & the ownership will continue.

Targeted players will not be brought to the club for Poch, or anyone else.
The recruitment will be half ar*ed as usual.
And results and performances will inevitably dip.

Looking at Arsenal yesterday, two players who would not at all look out of place in a Top 4 side stood out. Partey and Gabriel.
Those players were available at very reasonable prices this summer, it didn't take mega $$$ to get them. And would have addressed obvious weaknesses in our squad.

Instead we buy VDB (fair enough gives us squad depth, but will only start a limited number of games).
And a 33 year old injury prone forward who's barely played in 9/10 months.

Kerrydude1981 · 02-11-2020 10:42am

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Any club with a ounce of ambition would have sacked manager after yesterday.

For everything he gets right(like midweek) he gets it so wrong and so badly wrong and does not seem learn from his own mistakes.

Plus fact he has kept faith with certain footballers who have let him down time and again.

We are 15th in table with at best 12th if win game in hand and few goals. The season looks already over before it began.

8 seasons since our last league title and this is our 7th where its over within first two months.

No trophy in 3 years, bet the house it being 4 if Ole stays. We used to pity Arsenal, now they have shot past us and we lag behind.

I was in the small minority that thought Ole deserved this season, but it's been a spectacular failure in the league. I must have been drinking some strong whiskey.

I'm not even angry. Its just a shrugging the shoulders now, you get used to it. Would be nice though to actually deliver for one season every so often. At least they pretend that club wants to least complete for say Europa league or league Cup.

I have Spurs fans taking piss out if me. I mean Spurs. Finally hit rock bottom.

I was telling my nephew yesterday that if we win today we move up to 12th
Thats what it has come to now, moving up to 12th

bennyl10 · 02-11-2020 10:52am

We weren't this bad under Moyes. MOYES!

The UCL results are great, Leipzig especially, but how much of that is the players saying "Well we're on a big stage now we need to step up"?

There has not been one league game where we have looked cohesive, like a team, or even tactically aware.

Brighton should have battered us, Palace should have had more, Arsenal should have had 3/4 yesterday. Tottenham did it.

I love Ole, I want to blame the board as much as the next person(god knows they aren't helping), but he's picking the team, he's setting the tactics.

Any other club in the league has sacked him by now

sky88 · 02-11-2020 11:21am

yesterday was one of those games were i really do wonder what the hell the coaching staff is does during the week just lacked any cohesion in the team and it happens a lot with ole and the current coaches

DM_7 · 02-11-2020 11:49am

Both Chelsea and Arsenal stopped United using a variant of a similar set up. Two blockers in midfield and 3 at the back.

Leipzig also did that but United clinically took their chance early forcing them to change and United then battered them later.

I don't think Fred and McT or Matic with one is the only issue. It is what is around them and the lack of tactical or system plans to progress the ball forward that are an issue when teams contain United. Yesterday McT actually played like an 8 and he is not able to do it. That was a flat out bad decision.

None of the other teams played a 10. Arsenal dropped their 10 from their squad full stop. Cut supply to Bruno, foul Rashford and it kills United's play.

Once the ball goes back to Lindelof or Maguire from midfield after they have played it forward the attack is done. If it goes wide to AWB when he is deep or after a longer series of passes and the opponent has set themselves then the attack is over.

Ole has shown again his limitation on setting up or overseeing the coaching side to have a team that can progress play when not reliant on a counter attack. Selections like McT as an 8 or Pogba in a condensed midfield when his play relies on space show significant weaknesses in understanding in where the team is weak with the ball. If he can't do it then he needs to surround himself with people who can sort it out.

Ole also made no significant change at half time when he should have as it was clear his original set up was not good enough which is a worry.

At this stage it would be better off with Bruno in midfield giving away 1 in 4 passes as at least the ball would be higher up the pitch and the opponent might make a mistake. Yep, a put them under pressure approach would be more effective than the ball going into midfield and then back to CBs over and over.

I think the worst thing is how unsurprising the result was.

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 11:56am

bennyl10 wrote: »

We weren't this bad under Moyes. MOYES!

The UCL results are great, Leipzig especially, but how much of that is the players saying "Well we're on a big stage now we need to step up"?

There has not been one league game where we have looked cohesive, like a team, or even tactically aware.

Brighton should have battered us, Palace should have had more, Arsenal should have had 3/4 yesterday. Tottenham did it.

I love Ole, I want to blame the board as much as the next person(god knows they aren't helping), but he's picking the team, he's setting the tactics.

Any other club in the league has sacked him by now

If people want Ole sacked, they shouldn’t be angry with him. Who hired him? Who is prob gonna keep him on until it’s too late in league and then hire some Other manger when They’ve no chance of doing much this season? No manager ever quits their job, it’s highly unusual for some to expect Ole to quit. Ole is serving whatever purpose that Woodward wants, we all know they don’t care about the football side so this shouldn’t surprise anybody that we are in pretty much the similar position in the league by 7 league games (Certainly out of any meaningful race) that we were in Jose’s final season, less then 2 years ago.

Every issue we’ve struggled with starts at the board and seeps it’s ways down To infect the first teams chances. People keep saying “we understand that but....” but nothing , it’s all the glazers/Woodward who are destroying the club. The fans have been groomed to just give up and focus on hopefully the next manager doing somehow making it work. Changing managers works at other clubs because they have some sort of functioning football structure that works within the parameters they set their managers and players expectations. Jose should of been all we needed to see to of turned completely against the board.

I’m sick of this merry go round cycle. Some seem to think it’s different this time because Ole is not experienced, it’s no different at all. Top quality, mid range, inexperienced managers it doesn’t matter, United managers are at this stage just human shields to the owners, sacrificial lambs to the Inevitable slaughter so we can pin our hopes on somebody else making fawlty towers of a club a respectable hotel..

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 12:05pm

Kenny Famous Teammate wrote: »

He's been a manager 10 years. About as inexperienced as Lingard is a promising youngster.

I meant Experienced at the top level. Moyes, LVG, Jose and Ole have all varying degrees of experience in the game at success. Ole has the least experience of managing a EPL level club in that list.

Nalz · 02-11-2020 12:24pm

Zeek12 wrote: »

Sacking the manager may well effect some improvements. But they will be short term imo.
Even if Poch or someone like him can be tempted by the job (and with these owners there's no guarantee he'd even want it), the same cycle of managers being let down by Woodward & the ownership will continue.

Targeted players will not be brought to the club for Poch, or anyone else.
The recruitment will be half ar*ed as usual.
And results and performances will inevitably dip.

Looking at Arsenal yesterday, two players who would not at all look out of place in a Top 4 side stood out. Partey and Gabriel.
Those players were available at very reasonable prices this summer, it didn't take mega $$$ to get them. And would have addressed obvious weaknesses in our squad.

Instead we buy VDB (fair enough gives us squad depth, but will only start a limited number of games).
And a 33 year old injury prone forward who's barely played in 9/10 months.

Exactly. A proper CM and CB was needed... and a RW. I got thrown the whole "third best defense last season" line at me last year when I suggested those positions.

Instead we bought a FB, ACM, two youngsters and an unfit possibly past it ST

larchielads · 02-11-2020 12:26pm

Drumpot wrote: »

I meant Experienced at the top level. Moyes, LVG, Jose and Ole have all varying degrees of experience in the game at success. Ole has the least experience of managing a EPL level club in that list.

Lvg had no experience in prem league, ole had cardiff

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 12:27pm

Do people think Ole can actually drop Pogba? Does he have the authority or mandate to drop this star player like for example Arteta did with Ozil who is making a fortune to not even be on the bench.

Why would the owners/Woodward care? As I understand it the book value of the squad is important on some level. The clubs most expensive/valuable player depreciating in value on the bench or in reserves would not be good for the accounting figures. This could also impact our ability to spend as there are clauses in the clubs loans that can restrict spending if certain milestones are met.

This is extremely important for any United Manager, if they have to accommodate certain players regardless of form or application or whatever it is thats making the player so poor. What was it Ole called Pogba ? Was it “your highness”?

This is why I said yesterday I’m nearly not even angry at Pogba anymore as I think he’s as much a pawn in Woodward/Glazers failed methods as Ole is at this stage.

Hodors Appletart · 02-11-2020 12:29pm

what the club needs after Ole is a manager to come in and show some fúcking stones when Woodward fúcks him over in the very first transfer window, and walk immediately. Put the flaming bag of shít directly on Woodward's doorstep and let him stamp it out.

in many ways, Ole is not to blame, he's in the job of his lifetime and is not being backed correctly by his bosses. Sure, he's put of his depth, but that is not his fault, he's not doing a bad job on purpose.

I think he should go, but who here would? Who here would walk away from their dream job?

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 12:29pm

larchielads wrote: »

Lvg had no experience in prem league, ole had cardiff

Ah stop, seriously you guys are being pedantic now. LVG had plenty of success and experience at the top levels of the game.

larchielads · 02-11-2020 12:39pm

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah stop, seriously you guys are being pedantic now. LVG had plenty of success and experience at the top levels of the game.

Ah I was only windin ye up, ye make a few valid points, i take it back

Father Hernandez · 02-11-2020 12:51pm

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

what the club needs after Ole is a manager to come in and show some fúcking stones when Woodward fúcks him over in the very first transfer window, and walk immediately. Put the flaming bag of shít directly on Woodward's doorstep and let him stamp it out.

in many ways, Ole is not to blame, he's in the job of his lifetime and is not being backed correctly by his bosses. Sure, he's put of his depth, but that is not his fault, he's not doing a bad job on purpose.

I think he should go, but who here would? Who here would walk away from their dream job?

No one so I don't understand why the next manager would either?

If Pochettino comes in, why in the world would he come in, not get backed and walk? Makes no sense whatsoever as he doesn't gain personally nor financially.

Ole is the only person who could potentially do it as he is a lifelong United fan and will continue to be a fan long after he is gone.

We all know Woodward is a problem as are the Glazers but realistically, they're going nowhere. The Barcelona situation to United is miles apart where they had a petition to get Bartomeu and the board out. A fan owned club and self sustaining, United could be too.

Glazers own United, they earn millions and millions so there is no way they are leaving anytime soon. Woodward has shown time and time again he can fail with signings and not backing managers but do well commerically which is more important to the owners so he continues in his role so I don't feel he'll be leaving anytime soon after.

Not advocating for doing nothing but there's not a whole lot more bar protests which I feel could be done. Other than that, United is too much of a cash cow for anything to have a dent in the finances so they'll stay.

The other elephant in the room is Ole who I'm a big fan of from a footballing perspective but he's not the man to bring the good times back to United. We've seen flashes of great performances but by and large, it's been shyte.

As I said yday, Arteta will get a big job after he leaves Arsenal IMO, Ole will not. Why should we have to settle for second best in a managers capacity jsut because he's a nice guy. So is Poch, get him before it's too late IMO.

Cotts72 · 02-11-2020 12:58pm

My issue is the lack of trust I have in any starting lineup ole puts out. He still can't decide on the best 11 or formation.

As mentioned the window was a shambles and he should have spoke out against woodward. True we signed well but in the wrong positions.

Arsenal signed Gabriel and partey for 80m yet we scampered after Sancho all summer bidding allegedly 90m.

We've been crying out for RW and end up sign 2 youths like a game of Football manager who are no where near ready and with regards to Pellestri I don't think he'll ever be

The lack of quality wingers at this club is ridiculous

Your Airbag · 02-11-2020 12:59pm

Bad day at the office all around yesterday. After playing with such conviction Wednesday then to look so toothless vs Arsenal was a real let down. We dealt with Leipzigs high pressing well and managed to pass our way out from the back well. Yesterday we could hardly get out of our own half at times.

A lot of people focusing on Pogba but in reality, penalty aside, he was no worse or better than any one else out there and everyone looked subpar yesterday. Fred and McTominay were noticeably poor, McTominay was particularly bad. Bruno was very quite and ineffective. We struggled to get forward with any sort of meaning, it looked like we just resorted to getting the ball to Greenwood or Rashford and hoping they would work a miracle.

The inconsistency is worrying, Ole said after the Spurs game that he vows to fix it and after a good results in the UCL here we are with another home defeat. It seems to be a pattern of his tenure so far, a string of good results then a very poor performance or run of games.

El Gato De Negocios · 02-11-2020 1:05pm

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

what the club needs after Ole is a manager to come in and show some fúcking stones when Woodward fúcks him over in the very first transfer window, and walk immediately. Put the flaming bag of shít directly on Woodward's doorstep and let him stamp it out.

in many ways, Ole is not to blame, he's in the job of his lifetime and is not being backed correctly by his bosses. Sure, he's put of his depth, but that is not his fault, he's not doing a bad job on purpose.

I think he should go, but who here would? Who here would walk away from their dream job?

The board do not coach the team.

The board do not decide on tactics.

The board do not pick the starting line ups.

The board do not decide on in-game changes.

All of these things rest with Ole.

The issues with the board have been discussed ad nauseum and once money keeps coming in the board will not change. Ole has spent well over 200m since he came in but still looks bereft of any ideas once plan A doesn't work.

We are in 15th place on 7 points. We absolutely mugged Brighton to get a win so should really be only on 5 points and two places above the relegation zone.

That is shocking, absolutely shocking. Board or no board, Ole needs to go and go quickly otherwise we are going to be in even more serious difficulty than we currently are.

Mitch Connor · 02-11-2020 1:07pm

our inability to move hte ball quickly out of defence was a big problem.

We had little width with no one in wing positions and little in wider midfield. McT and Fred both played too central, too close, creating no space or passing lanes.

Don't know if we were playing a diamond or a block, but it didn't work. don't know how we persisted with the same formation for 45 mins of it clearly not working.

Was a little better after the half but then went back.

Yes another terrible performance, with many players to blame and critise.

Ole isn't the right manager, and too many of the players aren't the right players. But I don't believe Ole is good enough to win us trophies even with the right players.

I certainly think Ole needs to bring Telles into the side when fit and switch to a 352 formation. Telles and Shaw on the left will give us better out ball options. AWB on the right side is an offensive issue if there is no one helping him, but it is what it is there. Pogba has to be dropped, and not just because of his own performances, but becasue we need a better balance in midfield and I don't think we will get it with him. Would love to see Fred/Matic with Bruno and VDB in midfield.

DM_7 · 02-11-2020 1:20pm

Drumpot wrote: »

Do people think Ole can actually drop Pogba? Does he have the authority or mandate to drop this star player like for example Arteta did with Ozil who is making a fortune to not even be on the bench.

Why would the owners/Woodward care? As I understand it the book value of the squad is important on some level. The clubs most expensive/valuable player depreciating in value on the bench or in reserves would not be good for the accounting figures. This could also impact our ability to spend as there are clauses in the clubs loans that can restrict spending if certain milestones are met.

This is extremely important for any United Manager, if they have to accommodate certain players regardless of form or application or whatever it is thats making the player so poor. What was it Ole called Pogba ? Was it “your highness”?

This is why I said yesterday I’m nearly not even angry at Pogba anymore as I think he’s as much a pawn in Woodward/Glazers failed methods as Ole is at this stage.

Pogba's book value is based on: transfer fee booked on balance sheet, his transfer fee amortised over length of contract, a new contract would see his remaining value (if any at renewal) amortised over the length of the new contract. It is not based on a transfermarkt type valuation.

He was more likely selected for his abilities and to fulfil a role Ole thought was right for the team.

The repeated short kick outs when United could not even get out of their defensive third are more likely an indicator of how the choices of the manager, and how he got his approach wrong, influence what happens on the pitch than a financial need to pick Pogba, who was not selected to start three of the previous 4 games.

Zeek12 · 02-11-2020 1:23pm

Father Hernandez wrote: »

No one so I don't understand why the next manager would either?

If Pochettino comes in, why in the world would he come in, not get backed and walk? Makes no sense whatsoever as he doesn't gain personally nor financially.

Ole is the only person who could potentially do it as he is a lifelong United fan and will continue to be a fan long after he is gone.

We all know Woodward is a problem as are the Glazers but realistically, they're going nowhere. The Barcelona situation to United is miles apart where they had a petition to get Bartomeu and the board out. A fan owned club and self sustaining, United could be too.

Glazers own United, they earn millions and millions so there is no way they are leaving anytime soon. Woodward has shown time and time again he can fail with signings and not backing managers but do well commerically which is more important to the owners so he continues in his role so I don't feel he'll be leaving anytime soon after.

Not advocating for doing nothing but there's not a whole lot more bar protests which I feel could be done. Other than that, United is too much of a cash cow for anything to have a dent in the finances so they'll stay.

The other elephant in the room is Ole who I'm a big fan of from a footballing perspective but he's not the man to bring the good times back to United. We've seen flashes of great performances but by and large, it's been shyte.

As I said yday, Arteta will get a big job after he leaves Arsenal IMO, Ole will not. Why should we have to settle for second best in a managers capacity jsut because he's a nice guy. So is Poch, get him before it's too late IMO.

I wouldnt object to Poch per se. But as I've said here before, he isn't the silver bullet to resolving our problems.
I completely believe Poch or any other top manager will be messed around by Woodward and the ownership. After they fail to support him and refuse to address the holes in the squad.

And on Arteta: at least he was properly backed this summer.

They desperately needed a strong DM and a good CB. The club came through and delivered Partey and Gabriel.
Willian was a decent addition too, gives them plenty of guile and experience on the flanks.
And they secured Aubameyang on a new contract.

What do we do?
Add an attacking midfielder for squad depth, bring in a past-it injury prone forward and some 18 yr old nobody ever heard of.

While huge weaknesses at DM and RW are ignored. Again.
And at CB we lack strength in depth with all these injury prone defenders.

Nalz · 02-11-2020 1:24pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I certainly think Ole needs to bring Telles into the side when fit and switch to a 352 formation. Telles and Shaw on the left will give us better out ball options. AWB on the right side is an offensive issue if there is no one helping him, but it is what it is there. Pogba has to be dropped, and not just because of his own performances, but becasue we need a better balance in midfield and I don't think we will get it with him. Would love to see Fred/Matic with Bruno and VDB in midfield.

+1111111111111111 on this.

Lord TSC · 02-11-2020 1:31pm

The board are an issue.

But so is Ole.

Both can be true.

Yes, Ole wasn't backed 100% in the summer.

But he's at the club two years now, has spent £268m, and has us down in 15th. He's shipped out a lot of "deadwood" and been given multiple new players (some of whom he seems to resent having to play....). Is the idea that we're one or two players off leaping from 15th to top 4 under Ole? Thats an insane amount of mental gymnastics.

Absolutely nothing about how we play in the league, how inconsistent we are, screams to me that if Ole was or had been given another £150m, he'd suddenly have us competing for the title. His issues are massively tactical.

The benefit of him was meant to be we could ignore that flaw, because he kept the players happy and motivated. Now, he can't even achieve that.

Drumpot · 02-11-2020 1:56pm

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

The board do not coach the team.

The board do not decide on tactics.

The board do not pick the starting line ups.

The board do not decide on in-game changes.

All of these things rest with Ole.

The issues with the board have been discussed ad nauseum and once money keeps coming in the board will not change. Ole has spent well over 200m since he came in but still looks bereft of any ideas once plan A doesn't work.

We are in 15th place on 7 points. We absolutely mugged Brighton to get a win so should really be only on 5 points and two places above the relegation zone.

That is shocking, absolutely shocking. Board or no board, Ole needs to go and go quickly otherwise we are going to be in even more serious difficulty than we currently are.

The board set the parameters a manager and team has to work within. The board decides how the transfer monies is spent, not the manager. The board hired Ole and continue to support him. Ole is not in charge of the club and is not in charge of his destiny, the board is. When Ole is gone we are still stuck with the same failed muppet show.

Can people stop saying "ole/Jose/LVG spent", they spent nothing, money was spent while they were managers there is a difference. If the club continually misspends the funds we have its not the managers fault. Whatever about tactics or managerial competency, how the club gets rid of and retains players has little to with United managers.

People keep saying its futile moaning about the board, why ? This is a public soccer forum where nothing we say makes any difference on any level. The difference as I see it is that I don't really believe a better manager makes much of a difference. I'm sort of resigned to mediocrity while nothing above our managers changes, I am only saying that to explain why I am not chomping at the bit for Ole to be sacked. People constantly complain about our managers which I consider to be as futile as arguing about the board. You might console yourself with the thought that at least there is a realistic chance a manager will be changed, but how is working out for fans since Moyes was sacked ?

I don't believe there is a worse owner in the league in terms of managing the football side of things and having savagely negative affects on the team. I don't believe a half decent run club the size of United finishes outside the top 3 of the premier league with the money we have spent the last 7 years. This isn't down to choosing bad managers, its because every manager is destined to fail with such apathetically bad owners. You could put a nobody as manager of City or Barca or Madrid or Bayern and they'd easily keep those clubs in the top 3 of their leagues. Why is is that there are plenty of examples of clubs with at best half decent managers who can do well at these clubs and no examples at United? Every manager we has under performs, why is that ? Ole is actually the one manager we have had who is performing to the levels one could of expected from a manager with no real pedigree coming into the role. The premier league is not that much vastly superior to balance off the money united are spending to explain why we have struggled so bad in the league. And if it was that we should win the Europa every year we are in it and easily make CL quarter finals. Managers fail at United because the board fails in putting in place a actually cohesive plan in place on the football side of things.

I think a new manager is as likely to win a league as there is the owners leaving because fans turn on them. That's why I don't get excited at a new manager. Yeh, maybe we play a bit better, but the next manager gets undermined and it all falls apart again. What's the point in getting your hopes up....

I am not having a go at fans wanting a new manager, I am just really lacking in any hope that it will make any meaningful difference. I really wanted Ole to be the manager who shouldn't work but did because I don't see any manager making our club better to the levels it should be. Top 4 is a pathetic target for the 3rd richest club in the world, its not good enough.

If I could I would just stop supporting them and find a lower league club (or go back to following Shelbourne) because at least I could get some satisfaction out of seeing a well run club doing the best it can with some semblance of character. Ever since the Glazers took over they have slowly eroded whatever soul used to exist at the club. When SAF retired and then Giggs left its just been getting worse and worse.

ozzy jr · 02-11-2020 2:08pm

Lord TSC wrote: »

has spent £268m

4 transfer windows, £67m per window at a time where the best players in the world are in or around £100m. Not great is it?

Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer Rumours/Gossip 2020/21- Mod Notes OP [06/11/20]

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