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“Gardai object to legal aid”

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  • 05-04-2021 1:48am
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭


    Is there a statutory provision that allows Gardai to object to legal aid?

    I’ve see this reported several times over the years and wondered in what capacity they were objecting, are Gardai not witnesses in these cases and if so what scope does a witness have in objecting to the granting of legal aid?


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    #2
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Is there a statutory provision that allows Gardai to object to legal aid?

    I’ve see this reported several times over the years and wondered in what capacity they were objecting, are Gardai not witnesses in these cases and if so what scope does a witness have in objecting to the granting of legal aid?

    The granting of free legal aid is ultimately a matter for the judge. I have seen the prosecution raise objection to state funded legal aid in criminal cases, usually where it was believed the individual had sufficient means to pay his or her solicitor. Or where it was evident that funds were being expended on other exploits which were considered less worthy than defending yourself when your liberty is at stake. (Like for example a boob job in Dubai in the middle of a pandemic)


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    #3
    Caquas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭Caquas


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Is there a statutory provision that allows Gardai to object to legal aid?

    I’ve see this reported several times over the years and wondered in what capacity they were objecting, are Gardai not witnesses in these cases and if so what scope does a witness have in objecting to the granting of legal aid?

    Googled that for ya!

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/legal_aid_and_advice/criminal_legal_aid.html
    Sometimes the judge will ask a prosecuting Garda if the Gardaí have any objections to legal aid being granted. The Gardaí will rarely object unless they have proof that you are being untruthful to the court about your means.

    The Gardai are not just witnesses, they prepare the book of evidence but that doesn't stop them giving their views if asked by the Judge who may or (as in this case) may not accept their objections.


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    #4
    Black Cloud
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Black Cloud


    Legal aid is generally granted on application during the court hearing. If there is any doubt as to the bona fide of the applicant, they may be required to submit in writing a statement of means to assist the Judge in coming to a decision whether to grant or not.


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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Caquas wrote: »
    Googled that for ya!

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/legal_aid_and_advice/criminal_legal_aid.html



    The Gardai are not just witnesses, they prepare the book of evidence but that doesn't stop them giving their views if asked by the Judge who may or (as in this case) may not accept their objections.

    Saw that thanks but it doesn't refer to any specific provision.


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    #6
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The ability for an objection is not provided for by statute, but rather the common law and a court scheme.

    The reason behind this is that the court is not an investigatory body and has little more than the statement of means to go by, and so it can rely on others in the know for information which may determine the entitlement to free legal aid.

    It is provided for under the Non-Statutory District Court (Counsel) Scheme, introduced as a result of the Supreme Court Carmody vs The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2010] 1 IR 635 case.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    GM228 wrote: »
    The ability for an objection is not provided for by statute, but rather the common law and a court scheme.

    The reason behind this is that the court is not an investigatory body and has little more than the statement of means to go by, and so it can rely on others in the know for information which may determine the entitlement to free legal aid.

    It is provided for under the Non-Statutory District Court (Counsel) Scheme, introduced as a result of the Supreme Court Carmody vs The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform [2010] 1 IR 635 case.

    In that case can anyone theoretically object to the granting of legal aid?


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    #8
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    brenbrady wrote: »
    In that case can anyone theoretically object to the granting of legal aid?

    They are not objecting to the granting of legal aid. The objection is that the defendant is not entitled to legal aid.


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    They are not objecting to the granting of legal aid. The objection is that the defendant is not entitled to legal aid.

    Ok I’ll rephrase.

    Can anyone raise and objection that a defendant is not entitled to legal aid?


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    #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Ok I’ll rephrase.

    Can anyone raise and objection that a defendant is not entitled to legal aid?

    no because no one else is the prosecution.

    You seem to consider Gardai as only witnesses but in most cases they are in fact the prosecution.In cases where theres a state solicitor present it will be them and not Gardai that would object.

    Theres conditions that need to be met to obtain legal aid. Judges wont know them but Gardai will, a common one being the chances of the person being sent to prison on a sentence. Gardai know the persons history but at the prelimiary stages, the judge will not.


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    #11
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Ok I’ll rephrase.

    Can anyone raise and objection that a defendant is not entitled to legal aid?

    No, 1(3) of the non- statutory scheme specifically states:-
    Before a legal representation certificate may be granted, the prosecution may be asked to make a submission to the court stating whether they object to the granting of a certificate for counsel in the case and the court shall take this into account in reaching its determination


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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Ok I’ll rephrase.

    Can anyone raise and objection that a defendant is not entitled to legal aid?


    If a person has information which may be relevant to the issue they should provide that information to the prosecution, who can decide how to proceed in respect of raising an objection, if appropriate (which can be done post-gra-grant) or investigating any potentially false declaration/statement made by an accused/defendant as part of an application for legal aid.


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    #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ecoli3136 wrote: »
    If a person has information which may be relevant to the issue they should provide that information to the prosecution, who can decide how to proceed in respect of raising an objection, if appropriate (which can be done post-gra-grant) or investigating any potentially false declaration/statement made by an accused/defendant as part of an application for legal aid.

    Likewise, what relevant information does the Gardai have which led them to object and did they present that information when they made the objection?


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    #14
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Likewise, what relevant information does the Gardai have which led them to object and did they present that information when they made the objection?

    They may be aware of the persons lifestyle or their possession of assets which indicate they can afford to pay for legal representation. They may also be a ware of previous convictions which would increase the likelihood of a custodial sentence which may be a factor in allowing legal aid.


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Likewise, what relevant information does the Gardai have which led them to object and did they present that information when they made the objection?

    I don't understand what you are saying here.


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    #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ecoli3136 wrote: »
    If a person has information which may be relevant to the issue they should provide that information to the prosecution, who can decide how to proceed in respect of raising an objection, if appropriate (which can be done post-gra-grant) or investigating any potentially false declaration/statement made by an accused/defendant as part of an application for legal aid.
    ecoli3136 wrote: »
    I don't understand what you are saying here.

    If the Gardai have evidence that a person should not be entitled to legal aid, should they not provide that info?


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    brenbrady wrote: »
    If the Gardai have evidence that a person should not be entitled to legal aid, should they not provide that info?

    In my experience questions that start with "should they not" or similar are coming with an agenda. If you tell me yours I'll answer your questions.


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    #18
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    brenbrady wrote: »
    Likewise, what relevant information does the Gardai have which led them to object and did they present that information when they made the objection?
    bernardand wrote: »
    Likewise, what relevant information does the Gardai have which led them to object and did they present that information when they made the objection?

    weird


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    weird

    Indeed...


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    #20
    Fake Scores
    Closed Accounts Posts: 168 ✭✭Fake Scores


    If a person truly had no means or income then they would have no worry about the subject arising. No one could give the court evidence of income or assets because no such evidence would exist. So you would have no qualms or worries about the subject coming up. It's only if someone was pulling a fast one that they would hope that no questions would be asked. The chancer would have a problem with objections. They might be found out.

    The Judge sitting in her courtroom every day won't know. Don't know the defendant personally. Doesn't work in the area they live. They won't know one way or the other. The free legal aid solicitor has a vested interest and also only knows what the client tells them for the most part.

    The only independent person present who can represent the states interst, the hard pressed tax payers interest is the garda. They probably work in the community where the accused lives. Know them and their family. Some of the personal circumstances. If the garda was aware that a person making a free legal aid application had in fact the means to employ a solicitor then it would a gross dereliction of duty to allow public funds to be dishonestly and wrongfully wasted on a false appication. And obviously they will give evidence. The Judge can seek all or any documentary evidence they consider necessary. Have employers or social welfare officers, revenue officials, whom ever, brought to Court to clear the matter up.

    It's not rocket science. Someone either has the money to pay for their own solicitor or they don't. The only people who wouldn't want the question asked at all have something to hide.


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