Were Protestants driven out of the Free State/Republic?

There was a sharp fall in the Protestant population of the Republic (or what was to become the Republic) between the last census before independence (which was in 1911) and the first census afterwards (1926). Of course, a good deal had happened in the meantime - the Great War, for example - so we can’t attribute this entirely to the effects of independence. But it probably played a part.

In terms of people being “driven out”, there were of course people who had their houses burnt. Some of them left, and never came back. They were mostly Protestant, but they weren’t picked because they were Protestant but because they were establishment figures. Outside of border areas, where some Protestant farmers were targeted, I don’t recall any similar actions taken against working-class or middle-class Protestants. (And you could make a case that that was the result of partition, not the result of independence.)

A lot of people in government service chose to leave, with their families - rather than enter the civil/public service of the Free State they accepted transfers to other parts of the UK. I wouldn’t really see them as having been “driven out”. And of course there was a large British military establishment in Ireland, which brought its own followers. This group was disproportionately Protestant, and its raison d’etre vanished in 1922.

Others left not so much because they were being discriminated against, but because they no longer enjoyed a degree of social and official privilege/preference. From their perception, that might have been experienced as discrimination, but I wouldn’t see them as having been “driven out” either.

The fall between 1911 and 1936 was sharp. The Protestant population continued to fall thereafter, though more slowly. This is partly attributed to a lower Protestant birthrate, and partly to a higher-than-average propensity to emigrate (in a country where the average propensity to emigrate was already very high). The higher emigration rate may partly have reflected disengagement from the institutions of a society which they no longer dominated as they once had, and partly a relatively greate affinity with society in the UK.

Intermarriage must have played a factor. Everyone knows about the <i>Ne Temere</i> decree, but in fact intermarriage always tends towards the elimination of cultural minorities; what accounts for the near-disappearance of Methodism in the Republic is not marriage to Catholics, but marriage to Anglicans - the resultant family tends to gravitate towards Anglicanism.

I note that the linked article claims there was discrimination in the job market, which there undoubtedly was, but it’s not clear that this tended on balance to disfavour Protestants. There was some tendency for Protestants to work for Protestant firms and vice versa, but since Protestants started out in an economically dominant position this favoured Protestants over Catholics, rather than the other way around. I note the claim that for some jobs “Trinity college was not accepted as a source of education”; I’ve never heard of this, and would be interested to know more.

May sound like an eejit saying this...

But could one of the main factors in the drop of Protestants in the "Republic" be the creation of the North?

If you look at the 1911 census Ireland was still one country, but in the 1926 census the North had been created. Which held a large portion of the islands protestant population. Maybe I'm missing the point in something here, but that seems to me what could be a large factor.

Also, weren't the Cork brigade of the Old IRA active in burning out Protestants during and after the War of Independence? Or was that only land lords they did that to?

I think education was the major divider.

Protestants had a choice to either send their children to a catholic school (would they even have been admitted?) or to a protestant school, which because of low numbers meant a boarding school following an english curriculum which wouldnt have included irish (so no government jobs).

Protestants were encouraged to get an english education, which inevitably resulted in work in england.

In addition of course it actually fostered the religious divide and encouraged an already elitist segment of society to stick even closer together.

:mad:

Peregrinus wrote: »

To the extent that Protestant schools chose to follow an English curriculum and not to teach Irish, this was effectively a refusal to adapt to the changing reality of the society that they were part of.

Well the choice was Catholic Curriculum or English. I dont think they had the numbers to be developing a specifically Irish Protestant Curriculum. It was much easier to adopt the english system along with the trained teachers readily available.

So they churned out little anglo irish kids with A and O levels, who went on to jobs in London. I dont think anyone complained too much about it.

Yes, it would have been great if Irish language education had been mandatory.

The Scientician wrote: »

As regards employment, Protestant owned firms often explicitly sought Protestant employees. Here's an interesting article on the phenomenon.

My parents, who entered the work force in the early 1950s always told me that a friend and contemporary of theirs was one of the first ever Catholic secretaries in Guinness.

Gay Byrne, whose family had long associations with Guinness, wrote in his autobiography that his brother Al was one of the first Catholics to be employed in a white collar job in Guinness. That would have been around the same time frame: late 1940s, early 1950s.

These stories each corroborate the general fact that it was not until 25-30 years after the creation of the Free State (later Republic) that Catholics started to make the transition into office jobs in large traditionally Protestant dominated companies and firms. Catholics had always been welcome to shift the barrels, drive the barges and work on the factory floor. But to get behind a desk? Not so common.

It illustrates the effects of more widely available basic education for the catholic working classes (both my parents were the first from each of their respective families to go to university), and the decline in number of "available" protestants to fill the office jobs in such companies.

It also indicates that there was no Zimbabwe-like "appropriation" of Protestant businesses. They were able to carry on much as before but inevitably, the growth in education and confidence of the catholic population saw a decline in the disproportionate numbers of protestants in management positions.

In the case of Guinness, it only took 25 years.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Irish is compulsory in any school that is in receipt of public money .

Nope. Protestant boarding schools DO receive public money and Irish isnt compulsory.

I think you're getting confused by the fact that the Colleges are requiring it for admission, plus various occupations. Not schools though.

Witness the row about cutting the funding:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/this-is-about-much-more-than-education-1920856.html

I believe that's the case. I remember being told by by a guy in my year in UCD who went to John Scottus School that at one stage they nearly got their grants revoked by the department because one of the teachers insisted on teaching them Latin during their Irish class until he got found out at the end of the year (Sounds too funny to be but the chap was adamant that it happened)

The Scientician wrote: »

How did the southern government's policies with regard to Protestants legitimise those of the government in Northern Ireland in the period?

If the underlying hypothesis is correct, in what ways could/should the Irish government and broader society have made Protestants feel more welcome in the state?

Your hypothesis is on very shaky ground. It's worth noting that of the nine Presidents of Ireland two have been Protestant.

Just regarding university matriculation, Irish has never been a compulsory subject for matriculation to Trinity.

To be considered for admission to the University you must:

Present six subjects, three of which must be at grade C or above on higher Leaving Certificate papers or at least grade C in the University Matriculation examination
The six subjects above must include:

• A pass in English
• A pass in mathematics (or foundation-level mathematics (see note 2)) and a pass in a language other than English

OR

• a pass in Latin and a pass in a subject other than a language

I always felt that the creation of a protestant state for a protestant people on the island was the main cause for the drop in the population just across the border; so rather than being pushed out they were pulled by a number of factors- wanting to remain British, wanting to be amongst other protestants, economic migration etc.