Zero grazing

alps · 28-09-2020 11:47am

Careful on costs..

I can only give you experience of a 500kg ms operation. These are typically profitable on 9/10 month grazing supplemented with 7/800 kg concentrate. The key here is the cost of feeding.

The above will be flat out marginal on rented ground where cost of grazed grass fed hits 14c/kg. By introducing zero grazing as a requirement from your outside platform, you will effectively rise the cost of grass from owned ground to a cost from rented ground. The zero grazing will add at least 8c/kg to the cost of your grass.

This will be too costly for 500kg cows, while it may work for higher yields..

Zero grazing can be tolerated in a very tight autumn window to remove excesses on outside blocks, where ot could be considered more beneficial to ZG rather than bale. (Same cost). ZG silage ground in the Spring is a mess as it leads to a massive wedge in your silage crust and you'll be neither here nor there when it comes to harvesting time.

If you want to go grass cows, 120 cows on the 80 acres for summer with a simle 20 unit no frills parlour would work sweet. (No need for frills as no fresh calvers and other complications). If milking from home with a high SR, I'd research high yielding cows suitable for short walks/ higher inputs..

Timmaay · 28-09-2020 12:39pm

Alps does that 8c/kg on zg include all the extra costs, like paying yourself for driving, depreciation etc? And what about the extra slurry, can that be boiled back into c/kgdm also? Let's say getting the grass home and slurry back adds 10c/kgdm, and for 100 cows need a buffer of 8kg for 250 days, that an added 20k/yr cost, plus all the running around like a blue arsed fly drawing grass in and slurry out. The no frills nz style parlour, dairy /shed could be done for about 120k after you claim back a tams grant, you have your parlour paid for in 6yrs and gives the option to go to 120 cows. No brainer to go that option over keeping anything like 100 cows on the home block.

alps · 28-09-2020 2:32pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Alps does that 8c/kg on zg include all the extra costs, like paying yourself for driving, depreciation etc? And what about the extra slurry, can that be boiled back into c/kgdm also? Let's say getting the grass home and slurry back adds 10c/kgdm, and for 100 cows need a buffer of 8kg for 250 days, that an added 20k/yr cost, plus all the running around like a blue arsed fly drawing grass in and slurry out. The no frills nz style parlour, dairy /shed could be done for about 120k after you claim back a tams grant, you have your parlour paid for in 6yrs and gives the option to go to 120 cows. No brainer to go that option over keeping anything like 100 cows on the home block.

No labour included in the 8c/kg dm, nor slurry out..

I'd much prefer to be giving my time to the no frills parlour though, plus I reckon it would be miles easier to get someone to replace you in the parlour for holidays and a bit of time off..

J.O. Farmer · 28-09-2020 2:34pm

Panch18 wrote: »

I suppose the question for you Grueller is what are your ultimate goals

Is it to maximise cow numbers? (this doesn't always have to be the case)
Is it to maximise profits? (this doesn't always have to be the case)
Is it to make yourself extremely busy? (some people just love being busy)
Is it to get best lifestyle (this is very important and often overlooked, especially when the enthusiasm of being new wears off)

All of these are different goals, and all good in their own right, but depending on what you want will determine what you should do

Surely the ultimate goal must be best lifestyle, now to pay for said lifestyle you may need to maximise profits if you want to do things other than farm 24/7 or even have comfort doing so.

Maximising cow numbers doesn't make sense unless it is as a result of maximising profits unless you just love cows (which would contribute to best lifestyle.

Making yourself extremely busy might also be the best lifestyle for some.

In the end it comes down to your best lifestyle and what it requires more money, cows or work (or maybe all 3).

Grueller · 28-09-2020 3:31pm

Panch18 wrote: »

I suppose the question for you Grueller is what are your ultimate goals

Is it to maximise cow numbers? (this doesn't always have to be the case)
Is it to maximise profits? (this doesn't always have to be the case)
Is it to make yourself extremely busy? (some people just love being busy)
Is it to get best lifestyle (this is very important and often overlooked, especially when the enthusiasm of being new wears off)

All of these are different goals, and all good in their own right, but depending on what you want will determine what you should do

Lads have written plenty about what they think you should do to increase cow numbers - and profit and workload

If it was me - i'd milk 65 cows on the home block and 18 acres, rear all calves to at least 18 months on the outfarm - if you are really after lifestyle run a couple of beef bulls with the cows and hook up with a good local herd for you 12 replacement heifer calves - but that's just me

They are great questions Panch.
I think increasing cow numbers will, believe it or not, help with 3 of the 4.
Profits should increase as the transition would be to dairy from beef.
Lifestyle should improve as I would have 2 batches of stock realistically rather than 6. These large number of batches are what really makes me busy.
This leads me to just liking to be busy. I do like to be busy but I think 100 cows plus followers in a one man operation will have me busy enough. That also answers maximising cow numbers. On 140ac 100 cows is not near maximised. This would also give me loads of leeway to make plenty of fodder on140ish acres taking off the pressure of wet or dry years. (Home farm burns in drought, outfarm is heavyish so needs minding in a wet year).
As for profits being the main driver? If they were my main driver I would have stayed full time in my €70k per year job and set 140 acres at €200 per acre tax free. However, it comes back to lifestyle. I have always wanted to farm full time and I think that I have a chance to do that in about 3 years time.

Bass Reeves · 28-09-2020 4:57pm

Just saw this thread and browsed through it. There are a few questions you need to answer. First you have to decide on lifestyle and life quality is something you need to look at. I am not a dairy farmer but worked full-time and handled a farm that I was not living on. You have a fair bank.of land it a matter of maximizing profit but balancing lifestyle.

If it was me I would maximise cow nu.bers on the home block. I contract in the zero grazing for a few years and see what way it works out. Often extra cows that add labour is a zero sum game. Another issue with a split herd is that if it involves extra labour it cost 30-40cows to pay for a labour unit. You can be a busy fool.very fast. If you get to 80ish cows with a contracted zero grazer and some silage from the outside blocks it only s matter of rationalising the beef system. I get rid of the suckler's.

You have two options with a beef system. Rear your own calves and carry to finish. Thus would be many people's thinking. However you have second sell calves and buy back in stores at 18 months and finish off grass.

Grueller · 28-09-2020 8:41pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just saw this thread and browsed through it. There are a few questions you need to answer. First you have to decide on lifestyle and life quality is something you need to look at. I am not a dairy farmer but worked full-time and handled a farm that I was not living on. You have a fair bank.of land it a matter of maximizing profit but balancing lifestyle.

If it was me I would maximise cow nu.bers on the home block. I contract in the zero grazing for a few years and see what way it works out. Often extra cows that add labour is a zero sum game. Another issue with a split herd is that if it involves extra labour it cost 30-40cows to pay for a labour unit. You can be a busy fool.very fast. If you get to 80ish cows with a contracted zero grazer and some silage from the outside blocks it only s matter of rationalising the beef system. I get rid of the suckler's.

You have two options with a beef system. Rear your own calves and carry to finish. Thus would be many people's thinking. However you have second sell calves and buy back in stores at 18 months and finish off grass.

I think short term Bass I am leaning towards what you are saying above. I have more time and a bit of family labour available in Summer, so sub the zero grazing for high quality silage bales cut 3-4 times off of the out farm to buffer feed and allow me up to 80ish cows as you say. If the bales won't work alone I may consider some maize too.
On the outfarm then I would plan on keeping the beef progeny from the cows. I would be ai'ing 40ish cows so keeping 40ish beef cross calves and a batch of 20ish heifers, selling friesian bull calves. I would keep these beef calves to 18 months and this would give me 120 head on the out farm albeit 60 of them only being weaned calves. Take out 40 acres for silage and that is the whole lot used.
This for a few years allows me to have 80 cows in place and if I decide to go down the route of a parlour on the out farm I am close to my 100 cows already. This is probably a sensible option.

Bass Reeves · 28-09-2020 9:53pm

Grueller wrote: »

I think short term Bass I am leaning towards what you are saying above. I have more time and a bit of family labour available in Summer, so sub the zero grazing for high quality silage bales cut 3-4 times off of the out farm to buffer feed and allow me up to 80ish cows as you say. If the bales won't work alone I may consider some maize too.
On the outfarm then I would plan on keeping the beef progeny from the cows. I would be ai'ing 40ish cows so keeping 40ish beef cross calves and a batch of 20ish heifers, selling friesian bull calves. I would keep these beef calves to 18 months and this would give me 120 head on the out farm albeit 60 of them only being weaned calves. Take out 40 acres for silage and that is the whole lot used.
This for a few years allows me to have 80 cows in place and if I decide to go down the route of a parlour on the out farm I am close to my 100 cows already. This is probably a sensible option.

I forget about the parlor on the out farm maximize output on present platform. Unless you intend to live outfarm why would you bother. 7 miles is 15-20minues each way and maybe a gate to open and close. Drystock do not need to be seen each day except maybe the calves. If the Friesians you breath are growth I consider keeping them and selling the beef cross bulls. Friesians calves are low value but would turn decent money finished at 28months. Even if you want to sell as stores as they will be the earliest calves and if you are capable of putting weight on them off grass (getting them to 500ish kgsat 18-20 months) they leave you as much as a HE bullock. FR calf 20-50 euro at 15 days old 500 kg FR bullock 800-850 euro. HE bull at 15 days 150-200 euro 450ish HE bullock 900 euro.

I expect you will try to finish the beef cross heifers off grass at 20-22months. Band the bull calves at 8-10 weeks that way you can run all your calves as one bunch and all your yearlings, you can throw any cu cows into this bunch as well.and finish then off grass during the summer

tractorporn · 28-09-2020 10:48pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Build a second simple parlour in the out farm and calve all your cows at home and for the first rotation.

Move the cows over there for the peak grazing season and make most of your silage in the home block and bring back any excess as silage.

Bring the cows back home for the last rotation and hire a bit of zero grazing for that every day or second day.

That would simplify your system, I'd say, and allow extra cows to be carried to use the extra grass without the need for beef cattle. There will be a bit of hauling the late cows over but a haulier would carry the whole milking herd over in a morning.

I haven't read the whole thread yet so maybe this has been mentioned already. Similar to what others suggested would it not be easier to draw milk home instead of grass and milk with a mobile milking unit?

A lad I went to college with used one in the UK afaik it was featured on Farmer Weekly. Low setup cost and you could then use the 80 acre block for grazing?

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/mobile-parlour-milks-92-cows-in-the-field-26372843.html

https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/dorset-dairy-farmers-build-bespoke-outdoor-parlour

Bass Reeves · 28-09-2020 11:09pm

tractorporn wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread yet so maybe this has been mentioned already. Similar to what others suggested would it not be easier to draw milk home instead of grass and milk with a mobile milking unit?

A lad I went to college with used one in the UK afaik it was featured on Farmer Weekly. Low setup cost and you could then use the 80 acre block for grazing?

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/mobile-parlour-milks-92-cows-in-the-field-26372843.html

https://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/dorset-dairy-farmers-build-bespoke-outdoor-parlour

Milking cows a distance away from your home is not fun and the extra cows may leave you no better off.may leave you no better off. While 7 mile may seem a small distance. You will have to get up each morning travel 20 minutes and bring in cows to milk. Milking in the Evening after you have finished will entail a 20-30 minute before finish. This is totally different to milking cows on a home block after morning milking you can stroll down to the house to have breakfast on an out farm it will entail having a canteen type faculity there to eat unless you are big into a flask and sandwidge every morning for breakfast. It will entail 7-10K extra travel during the year to milk cows. That about 1K in extra running costs for transport before wear and tear is calculated. It will add 5 hours extra to your farming week during the milking season.Valuing your time at 20/hour it equivlent to nearly 4K/year

Mooooo · 29-09-2020 9:21am

You'll have to get out the calculator and see if the extra possible income in various scenarios would be worth the level of work associated with it. Calving at home and moving to the 80 acres post first round would have a busy spring so it would be at that time you would need a bit of extra labour but once they are out there it would be more straight forward. You could even put the maidens out there early while you are calving to graze some of the ground to set up for the cow's rotation. Having silage closer to home would be less travelling with slurry as well.
100 cows + followers would be very comfortable feed wise on the 140 acres and there would be much less work milking them on the 80 acres than drawing in grass or mixing silage all summer. Maxhinery/ contractor costs of the more indoor system would go a very long way to cover the cost of a parlour/ tank on the outfarm.
If you could find a few lads that are doing similar you could chat with them, discussion group may know of someone?

Grueller · 29-09-2020 10:37am

Mooooo wrote: »

You'll have to get out the calculator and see if the extra possible income in various scenarios would be worth the level of work associated with it. Calving at home and moving to the 80 acres post first round would have a busy spring so it would be at that time you would need a bit of extra labour but once they are out there it would be more straight forward. You could even put the maidens out there early while you are calving to graze some of the ground to set up for the cow's rotation. Having silage closer to home would be less travelling with slurry as well.
100 cows + followers would be very comfortable feed wise on the 140 acres and there would be much less work milking them on the 80 acres than drawing in grass or mixing silage all summer. Maxhinery/ contractor costs of the more indoor system would go a very long way to cover the cost of a parlour/ tank on the outfarm.
If you could find a few lads that are doing similar you could chat with them, discussion group may know of someone?

I think long term Mooo, and I am thinking about nothing else for the last month, I will probably have to go with your plan as above. In the meantime however I think that I will try get to 72 cows with a lot of buffer feeding. The 18 acres up the road should provide this by multiple cuts of silage. Use the outfarm for the winter silage and young stock.
This allows my herd to mature so in 3 years or so if, and I think I probably will, I decide to put a parlour out there I have a fairly mature herd that is delivering the milk to pay for the development work rather than a herd of heifers and struggling with cashflow.

K.G. · 29-09-2020 10:43am

Grueller wrote: »

I think long term Mooo, and I am thinking about nothing else for the last month, I will probably have to go with your plan as above. In the meantime however I think that I will try get to 72 cows with a lot of buffer feeding. The 18 acres up the road should provide this by multiple cuts of silage. Use the outfarm for the winter silage and young stock.
This allows my herd to mature so in 3 years or so if, and I think I probably will, I decide to put a parlour out there I have a fairly mature herd that is delivering the milk to pay for the development work rather than a herd of heifers and struggling with cashflow.

Very sensible.am i correct insaying your not long milking.just one other thing , it looks like you are well stocked and you would be amazed how much work you d save in a lower stocking rate and with drystock it may be even more profitable. Good thread by the way

Grueller · 29-09-2020 11:45am

K.G. wrote: »

Very sensible.am i correct insaying your not long milking.just one other thing , it looks like you are well stocked and you would be amazed how much work you d save in a lower stocking rate and with drystock it may be even more profitable. Good thread by the way

No only milking this year. I absolutely love it so far. The lockdown gave me the taste of full time farming and I am destroyed ever since. Nothing else will do now.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 29-09-2020 1:38pm

Grueller wrote: »

No only milking this year. I absolutely love it so far. The lockdown gave me the taste of full time farming and I am destroyed ever since. Nothing else will do now.

3 things destroyed many a good young man.

Drink.
Women.
And farming:P

Bass Reeves · 29-09-2020 2:01pm

Grueller wrote: »

No only milking this year. I absolutely love it so far. The lockdown gave me the taste of full time farming and I am destroyed ever since. Nothing else will do now.

When poverty comes in the window love flies out the door

Grueller · 29-09-2020 3:01pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

When poverty comes in the window love flies out the door

Contractor here had a good job, left it and put the contracting business together. I asked him how it was going and he said " I have never been as poor, nor as happy"

Grueller · 29-09-2020 3:06pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

When poverty comes in the window love flies out the door

To be fair on 140 acres, milking 70 cows and a dry stock operation alongside I shouldn't be exactly impoverished.

Bass Reeves · 29-09-2020 3:39pm

Grueller wrote: »

To be fair on 140 acres, milking 70 cows and a dry stock operation alongside I shouldn't be exactly impoverished.

And with that in mind you questions why you opt to increase to 100+ and spend 5-6 hours extra week travelling to and from. Milking 30-50 extra cows

Bass Reeves · 01-10-2020 1:14pm

Just on the 18acres about a mile away from you. I see a neighbour milking about 55 cows on a platform of 35 acres he has another block about the same distance away as you. He recently bought a small zero grazer second hand. It doesn't seem much of a chore to bring a load of grass nearly every day at present. He carries out a small bit of contracting as well. He makes all bale silage and really works on quality of it. He has switched between maize and crimped barley over the years but has moved away from the maize and stuck with the barley as he can do this himself on another block of land he has. He seems to be happy enough with the system at present

Injuryprone · 01-10-2020 2:50pm

Moving the herd to the 80 acres is the only option imo, if you're going dairy only. My main reasoning would be, as others have touched on, the slurry problem.

If you are harvesting feed from the 80 acres, be it by zero grazing/maize/wholecrop whatever, then all your slurry will have to be going to the 80 acres. Your home farm would be very, very highly stocked so you shouldn't really be spreading anything bar parlour washings at home. Drawing all your slurry a 14 mile round trip would be an eye-watering cost, I'd guess it'd be at least 5 times the cost of spreading in land adjoining the yard.

Harvesting your winter feed at the home farm where all your slurry is stored would be a much simpler setup.

On the other side of the coin, I'm guessing not much slurry has been drawn to the outfarm in a while, so what are the indexes like? Also what is the infrastructure like? People are talking about the cost of a cheap parlour/washings tank. But if you have to sort out roadways, fencing, water, soil indexes as well then you're talking a different story.

Bass Reeves · 01-10-2020 3:22pm

Injuryprone wrote: »

Moving the herd to the 80 acres is the only option imo, if you're going dairy only. My main reasoning would be, as others have touched on, the slurry problem.

If you are harvesting feed from the 80 acres, be it by zero grazing/maize/wholecrop whatever, then all your slurry will have to be going to the 80 acres. Your home farm would be very, very highly stocked so you shouldn't really be spreading anything bar parlour washings at home. Drawing all your slurry a 14 mile round trip would be an eye-watering cost, I'd guess it'd be at least 5 times the cost of spreading in land adjoining the yard.

Harvesting your winter feed at the home farm where all your slurry is stored would be a much simpler setup.

On the other side of the coin, I'm guessing not much slurry has been drawn to the outfarm in a while, so what are the indexes like? Also what is the infrastructure like? People are talking about the cost of a cheap parlour/washings tank. But if you have to sort out roadways, fencing, water, soil indexes as well then you're talking a different story.

No matter what way you go there are costs and time involved. The place a mile away would take a good bit of the slurry. I'd expect you spread some there. The 18 acres would need 4-5k gallons of slurry/acre/year. As the 80acres would have a drystock, rearing replacement's etc it might not be required for massive amounts of slurry.

The only reason he need to move the milking platform is if he goes beyond 70 cows the economics are marginal when costs and time are taken into account. Install roadways, paddock it for dairying, install extra water troughs etc and costs coin fast. For slurry being carried to it install a cheap storage lagoon to hold 50k gallons. Pig farmers use tanker trucks to move slurry. I think the cost is about 60/ hour. A truck would do that return in about 40 minutes. You have to spread it straight away but it would be an option vis a via moving herd

lalababa · 01-10-2020 3:33pm

I'd get rid of the sucklers, and just maybe rear your dairy calfs(to beef?). I'd try the zero grazing and see how that works.
If it becomes a pain or there is some problem, I'd change to good silage.
Best of luck, you really can't go too far wrong.

Injuryprone · 01-10-2020 3:45pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No matter what way you go there are costs and time involved. The place a mile away would take a good bit of the slurry. I'd expect you spread some there. The 18 acres would need 4-5k gallons of slurry/acre/year. As the 80acres would have a drystock, rearing replacement's etc it might not be required for massive amounts of slurry.

The only reason he need to move the milking platform is if he goes beyond 70 cows the economics are marginal when costs and time are taken into account. Install roadways, paddock it for dairying, install extra water troughs etc and costs coin fast. For slurry being carried to it install a cheap storage lagoon to hold 50k gallons. Pig farmers use tanker trucks to move slurry. I think the cost is about 60/ hour. A truck would do that return in about 40 minutes. You have to spread it straight away but it would be an option vis a via moving herd

I think you may not have read a few posts. OP would like to go farming full time. Dairying only is his only viable option to make a living at his scale. He has said he'd like to end up with 100-110ish milkers plus followers. No point spending money getting to 70 cows that will be redundant if you want to go further in time.

I would see the 18 acre block as somewhere for the followers.

Bass Reeves · 01-10-2020 4:06pm

Injuryprone wrote: »

I think you may not have read a few posts. OP would like to go farming full time. Dairying only is his only viable option to make a living at his scale. He has said he'd like to end up with 100-110ish milkers plus followers. No point spending money getting to 70 cows that will be redundant if you want to go further in time.

I would see the 18 acre block as somewhere for the followers.

I think if for 6-8 months if the year you will have to get up and leave your own yard to milk cows makes farming little different from an ordinary working job. If the cows are on a milking platform 7 miles away it makes the farming lifestyle totally different to what you might imagine.

As I posted earlier in the thread it totally different to milking cows in your own yard. You will be end up over and back from your own yard twice a day at least. While the economics may seem simple you have to factor in maybe not being able to drop your children to school what ever about collecting them. Maybe making Saturday and Sunday totally useless from a family viewpoint.

Whatever other options I looked at if I was in OP's position I would not be moving cows to a platform away from the house if there was any way I could avoid it. IMO moving the herd to another platform for the summer negates the margin on the 30-40 extra cows compared to drystock.

I maximise the home platform what ever about at I could and keep drystock on the rest.

Panch18 · 01-10-2020 4:35pm

Personally i'd still go with rearing the calves from 65 cows - I'm a firm believe in KISS

BUT if you want to get to a 100 cows or more then give serious consideration to 2 things for the 80 acre farm - OAD milking on both the home place and the 80 acres - or a robot on the 80 acres. Thing to think about here then is where to calf your cows

Speaking from experience there is no fun in having 1 block overstocked with cows - we spend the winter drawing in bales and the summer drawing out slurry - it gets tiresome after a couple of years, and there is the added cost of wear and tear on tractors etc.

Water John · 01-10-2020 10:43pm

The home farm plus the 18 acres gets you close to 90 cows. That 18 acres is the grass to zero graze.
As another poster said use the outfarm for high quality silage/bales, and whatever other crops it could grow, maize, crimp crops along with replacement heifers and some bullocks.
You could occasionally, twice a week, bring home a load of zero graze from the out farm and take your cow numbers over 100.

CloughCasey1 · 02-10-2020 8:26am

Jaysus Gruller. You are getting your monies worth in this thread. Fair play all. A mine of knowledge!

longgonesilver · 02-10-2020 9:39am

What would be the correct commute time each way to the 80 acres? By car and by tractor? Bass is quoting times of less than thirty miles an hour. Even if the eighty acres was just across the road or at the other end of your home block it would have a commute time.

Grueller · 02-10-2020 9:51am

longgonesilver wrote: »

What would be the correct commute time each way to the 80 acres? By car and by tractor? Bass is quoting times of less than thirty miles an hour. Even if the eighty acres was just across the road or at the other end of your home block it would have a commute time.

By car I can do it in 15 minutes at any time except for school collections and drop offs.
By tractor it is 25-30 minutes.

Bass Reeves · 02-10-2020 11:25am

longgonesilver wrote: »

What would be the correct commute time each way to the 80 acres? By car and by tractor? Bass is quoting times of less than thirty miles an hour. Even if the eighty acres was just across the road or at the other end of your home block it would have a commute time.

Go out the door hop into your car drive to the other farm through a few yield right away etc, arrive open the gate drive up through the pothold to yard. Get out get you few things. Maybe a lock on the gate or ina shed in the yard needing to be opened.15 minutes each way minimum on a good day. But not every day will be that fast. Early morning may be but you may unlucky to hit people going to work if you are coming out onto a main road.

I am about 12 miles from the house to the farm, most times it's 21/22 minutes on a good day. Having to travel a back road at the moment because of road works so another 2-3 minutes.

It will also mean probably no pints during milking season or very limited even at weekends it might be possible to milk cows with a hangover but driving a car early in the morning is not a option

farmer lad · 02-10-2020 4:51pm

Doing a bit of zero grazing here at present to stretch rotation length in home block, got offered grass a neighbour doesn’t want, zero graze load is around 4.5/5 ton fresh weight just wondering would anyone know a reasonable price for the load of grass???

jaymla627 · 02-10-2020 5:00pm

farmer lad wrote: »

Doing a bit of zero grazing here at present to stretch rotation length in home block, got offered grass a neighbour doesn’t want, zero graze load is around 4.5/5 ton fresh weight just wondering would anyone know a reasonable price for the load of grass???

At 15% dm for the load of grass as a average you'll have approx 700kgs dm of feed, 130 euro a load delivered would be the max the grass is worth

K.G. · 02-10-2020 5:33pm

farmer lad wrote: »

Doing a bit of zero grazing here at present to stretch rotation length in home block, got offered grass a neighbour doesn’t want, zero graze load is around 4.5/5 ton fresh weight just wondering would anyone know a reasonable price for the load of grass???

A neighbour here buys grass at 50 a load to land owner plus contractor

DBK1 · 02-10-2020 5:49pm

K.G. wrote: »

A neighbour here buys grass at 50 a load to land owner plus contractor

Used to be €50 a load around here (midlands) and contractor on top of that. It’s down to €40 now, not as many lads zero grazing and more grass available.

visatorro · 02-10-2020 8:55pm

A good operator I know says zero grazing is a good job for cows , a good job for grass and a bad job for farmer.

Water John · 02-10-2020 9:17pm

Some farmers are more animal people others are fond (some too fond) of machinery. Even some of those and contractors who are fond of machinery, aren't too fond of the grease gun.

Mf310 · 25-12-2020 9:15pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Multi cut silage and maize ,far more bang for your buck and no need to buy z grazed and give countless hours sitting in a tractor cutting loads of grass

Just came across this thread while searching zerograzing, not sure how I completely missed it in September, a lot of knowledge in it. Done a nice bit of zerograzing this year from the contractor , stocked on milking platform here at 3.5/HA and will be at 4/HA next year. The Cost of getting zero grazing done by contractor has drove me to the decision of buying something myself next year or changing system to multicut silage as MJ says. 75€ inc vat per load came just under €4000, for 50 loads of grass I felt it was steep and would make a fair repayment on a zerograzer or as Im doing so few loads even a good second hand at 15000€ would be value. Ive also buffer fed throughout the year with high dmd quality bales and felt cows performed better on it and it definitely helped keep yields up rather than drawing wet loads of grass in August/September.
My only thing against the multi cut silage system is residuals in paddocks , id be thinking it would be impossible to get cows to graze out paddocks when id be buffer feeding with the quality silage? Would be interested to hear about your system MJ and Jaymla would I be right in saying your both heavily stocked?

kevthegaff · 25-12-2020 10:03pm

Alot of tb around a few areas not so far from the farm, seems it's more prevalent among herds that zgraze alot. Obviously these herds are higher stocked and possibly less space in the shed, but I'm thinking theres something to it

Bass Reeves · 25-12-2020 11:41pm

Mf310 wrote: »

Just came across this thread while searching zerograzing, not sure how I completely missed it in September, a lot of knowledge in it. Done a nice bit of zerograzing this year from the contractor , stocked on milking platform here at 3.5/HA and will be at 4/HA next year. The Cost of getting zero grazing done by contractor has drove me to the decision of buying something myself next year or changing system to multicut silage as MJ says. 75€ inc vat per load came just under €4000, for 50 loads of grass I felt it was steep and would make a fair repayment on a zerograzer or as Im doing so few loads even a good second hand at 15000€ would be value. Ive also buffer fed throughout the year with high dmd quality bales and felt cows performed better on it and it definitely helped keep yields up rather than drawing wet loads of grass in August/September.
My only thing against the multi cut silage system is residuals in paddocks , id be thinking it would be impossible to get cows to graze out paddocks when id be buffer feeding with the quality silage? Would be interested to hear about your system MJ and Jaymla would I be right in saying your both heavily stocked?

I can never understand farmers facination with another man making a margin. The 75/load includes diseal and labour. Assuming the contractor is vat rated, there is about 9 euro in vat one the 75 euro. I am assuming there is 1.5 hours work to the contractor, most tractor drivers if fulltime with a contractor are on 15/ hour. Add on holiday pay and employer PRSI it's at least a 20/hour cost. So vat and labour is making up over half the cost.

This idea that 4k a s serious money towards machinery is not really looking at the picture long term. Usually lads underestimate the price of what they are buying. A contractor machine is bigger and his tractor is bigger and faster, as well maintenance is his specialty. If something happens to the machine you will struggle to fix it fast enough to keep you grass drawn to the cows..

But looking at it logically the machine will probably cost you more than 15K, even without interest it will be 4 years net before running costs before pay back. The machine you buy will be smaller than a contractor machine and will require 7-8 loads where he is doing 5 runs. If you require 50 loads done by him it will be 75 by your machine maybe more. You are looking at adding up to one hundred hours onto your workload every year. By the time diesel and tractor as well as machinery wear and tear is allowed for you are looking at a 6 year pay back. Valuing your time at 10 euro per hour pushes payback out to 10 years. I am not sure if I work a a thousand hours for 10 euro an hour to own a bit of scrap at the end of ten years

You planning to up your stocking levels if the business cannot stand the cost of paying contracting where it makes sense forget about expansion. Zero grazing will be on the shoulders of the year mostly in spring you be under pressure. WTF would you, there is too many idiots in the game as it is why join them. Lads pouring ration down cattle's gullet's all winter to give Larry beef with no margin.

Remember it a long way to 70 years of age and you could be farming that long

farisfat · 26-12-2020 12:31pm

Mf310 wrote: »

Just came across this thread while searching zerograzing, not sure how I completely missed it in September, a lot of knowledge in it. Done a nice bit of zerograzing this year from the contractor , stocked on milking platform here at 3.5/HA and will be at 4/HA next year. The Cost of getting zero grazing done by contractor has drove me to the decision of buying something myself next year or changing system to multicut silage as MJ says. 75€ inc vat per load came just under €4000, for 50 loads of grass I felt it was steep and would make a fair repayment on a zerograzer or as Im doing so few loads even a good second hand at 15000€ would be value. Ive also buffer fed throughout the year with high dmd quality bales and felt cows performed better on it and it definitely helped keep yields up rather than drawing wet loads of grass in August/September.
My only thing against the multi cut silage system is residuals in paddocks , id be thinking it would be impossible to get cows to graze out paddocks when id be buffer feeding with the quality silage? Would be interested to hear about your system MJ and Jaymla would I be right in saying your both heavily stocked?

I used to do both of the above.
Now i spent my spare time surfing and hill walking.
I find it alot better for body and mind.
Stock the farm to what it can feed and dont chase marginal milk.

Tonynewholland · 26-12-2020 1:05pm

farisfat wrote: »

I used to do both of the above.
Now i spent my spare time surfing and hill walking.
I find it alot better for body and mind.
Stock the farm to what it can feed and dont chase marginal milk.

I agree. Farmers work hard enough already why look for more work and pay half of what you might save on tax

Mooooo · 26-12-2020 3:33pm

kevthegaff wrote: »

Alot of tb around a few areas not so far from the farm, seems it's more prevalent among herds that zgraze alot. Obviously these herds are higher stocked and possibly less space in the shed, but I'm thinking theres something to it

Could be a case of spending more time ar the feedface and badgers coming into the yard to the pit or feed face. Beet, maize pits etc would want to be protected from access by them

Farmer2017 · 26-12-2020 4:08pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Could be a case of spending more time ar the feedface and badgers coming into the yard to the pit or feed face. Beet, maize pits etc would want to be protected from access by them

Got contractor to zero graze 12 loads in late Oct/November. More hassle than it was worth. Depending on contractor to turn up and turn up at all hrs. If again I prefer to bale. As for tb with zero graze I heard of that before. I be thinking it more to do with the cows not picking out the dirty grass. But by more rampant everywhere now. I personally won’t do r do much zero grazing again it was a real pain in the ass

richie123 · 26-12-2020 4:18pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I can never understand farmers facination with another man making a margin. The 75/load includes diseal and labour. Assuming the contractor is vat rated, there is about 9 euro in vat one the 75 euro. I am assuming there is 1.5 hours work to the contractor, most tractor drivers if fulltime with a contractor are on 15/ hour. Add on holiday pay and employer PRSI it's at least a 20/hour cost. So vat and labour is making up over half the cost.

This idea that 4k a s serious money towards machinery is not really looking at the picture long term. Usually lads underestimate the price of what they are buying. A contractor machine is bigger and his tractor is bigger and faster, as well maintenance is his specialty. If something happens to the machine you will struggle to fix it fast enough to keep you grass drawn to the cows..

But looking at it logically the machine will probably cost you more than 15K, even without interest it will be 4 years net before running costs before pay back. The machine you buy will be smaller than a contractor machine and will require 7-8 loads where he is doing 5 runs. If you require 50 loads done by him it will be 75 by your machine maybe more. You are looking at adding up to one hundred hours onto your workload every year. By the time diesel and tractor as well as machinery wear and tear is allowed for you are looking at a 6 year pay back. Valuing your time at 10 euro per hour pushes payback out to 10 years. I am not sure if I work a a thousand hours for 10 euro an hour to own a bit of scrap at the end of ten years

You planning to up your stocking levels if the business cannot stand the cost of paying contracting where it makes sense forget about expansion. Zero grazing will be on the shoulders of the year mostly in spring you be under pressure. WTF would you, there is too many idiots in the game as it is why join them. Lads pouring ration down cattle's gullet's all winter to give Larry beef with no margin.

Remember it a long way to 70 years of age and you could be farming that long

Bass excellent post.just to add a small bit to it.
Machines I call them.men who work themselves to the bone to end up with **** all extra and a bigger tax bill.the same men who'd laugh at you for going on a hike or a weekend away.
We have a lot of machines of men in this country doing far in excess of what's required and know nothing else.
Larry relies on these machines for his cheap supply of beef.
If we all cut back by just 5 per cent each.it would do wonders for farming.
Machines of men is what's destroying farming in this country.
Bite off only what you can chew comfortably.
No wonder mental health hip/knee replacement s and cardiovascular disease is so prevalent in farming.
Cut back, do it better and dont over extend yourself and don't begrudge a few pound to a relief milker or labourer.

mahoney_j · 26-12-2020 4:20pm

Great contractors around here ,lad with z grazer 50 per load dropped in yard.I did a bit in March and October November .no more and more hassle than worth grass is wet that time of year and more upsetting for Cow .way more bang for your buck with high quality high dm silage or Maize I’d never contemplate buying a z grazer and in future minimal contractor use .the marginal litres I don’t buy it but dependant on cow/management and ability of the cow to produce milk and kgms from the extra feed .I don’t get too hung up on Tegasc figures a guide nothing less lots of variables ,lots of costs omitted and assumptions and driving there own agendas

Mf310 · 26-12-2020 4:45pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I can never understand farmers facination with another man making a margin. The 75/load includes diseal and labour. Assuming the contractor is vat rated, there is about 9 euro in vat one the 75 euro. I am assuming there is 1.5 hours work to the contractor, most tractor drivers if fulltime with a contractor are on 15/ hour. Add on holiday pay and employer PRSI it's at least a 20/hour cost. So vat and labour is making up over half the cost.

This idea that 4k a s serious money towards machinery is not really looking at the picture long term. Usually lads underestimate the price of what they are buying. A contractor machine is bigger and his tractor is bigger and faster, as well maintenance is his specialty. If something happens to the machine you will struggle to fix it fast enough to keep you grass drawn to the cows..

But looking at it logically the machine will probably cost you more than 15K, even without interest it will be 4 years net before running costs before pay back. The machine you buy will be smaller than a contractor machine and will require 7-8 loads where he is doing 5 runs. If you require 50 loads done by him it will be 75 by your machine maybe more. You are looking at adding up to one hundred hours onto your workload every year. By the time diesel and tractor as well as machinery wear and tear is allowed for you are looking at a 6 year pay back. Valuing your time at 10 euro per hour pushes payback out to 10 years. I am not sure if I work a a thousand hours for 10 euro an hour to own a bit of scrap at the end of ten years

You planning to up your stocking levels if the business cannot stand the cost of paying contracting where it makes sense forget about expansion. Zero grazing will be on the shoulders of the year mostly in spring you be under pressure. WTF would you, there is too many idiots in the game as it is why join them. Lads pouring ration down cattle's gullet's all winter to give Larry beef with no margin.

Remember it a long way to 70 years of age and you could be farming that long

I take it your not a dairy farmer bass, I actually wouldnt agree with your comments at all. Contractor takes no longer than 45 minutes from leaving his yard to being back in his yard after my load id be of the thinking the 75€ is money for jam. If i bought my own machine itd only take 30 minutes out of my day to go for a load and tractor is already here mostly idle at back end of year anyway. and I have the convenience of doing it when I want to , before it begins to rain rather than him coming after it has poured rain or him coming 10 minutes before I go to start milking. I agree that il be doing more loads with my own machine and if I had my own machine id probably even stock the farm higher maybe up to 6 cows/ha on the milking platform and be going with it even more so .

Planning to up stocking levels yes but I never said the business cant stand the cost of paying for contracting, I just feel id make more money by cutting him out of it and maximise my profits here. Its a business we are in after all. There is surplus grass being cut here all throughout the summer which is hardship , im of the thinking its far easier manage a highly stocked farm rather than taking paddocks out here and there every week. Its also very easy to buffer feed when set up right. I wouldnt actually call any dairy farmer an idiot to be zerograzing or feeding meal?

See another comment there not to be chasing marginal milk. Is a bit of buffer feeding in the spring and autumn marginal milk? Questionable. Regardless there is going to be buffer feeding needed to be done in the shoulders of the year , some of the most profitable dairy farms are the ones stocked at 4/ha and over.

Mf310 · 26-12-2020 4:55pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Great contractors around here ,lad with z grazer 50 per load dropped in yard.I did a bit in March and October November .no more and more hassle than worth grass is wet that time of year and more upsetting for Cow .way more bang for your buck with high quality high dm silage or Maize I’d never contemplate buying a z grazer and in future minimal contractor use .the marginal litres I don’t buy it but dependant on cow/management and ability of the cow to produce milk and kgms from the extra feed .I don’t get too hung up on Tegasc figures a guide nothing less lots of variables ,lots of costs omitted and assumptions and driving there own agendas

Just seen your post now MJ , 50 a load is a far sounder deal for what zerograzing is. Id agree with your comments based on october/november and that cows benefit far more from the high dmd silage, complements the grazed grass far better too. Yeah I think it would be a good route to go down next year maybe do multicut silage off outfarm instead of zgrazing. Might do a small bit during a drought but other than that I think the high quality bales could be a better shout. Bought a bale shear this year too so bales are no extra hassle once they are in the yard. Holstein/freisian cows on farm here and id be of the same consideration youll get back what you put into them and more in the line of high quality silage/meal , cows on 2kg/day throughout year here but going to up that next year especially for early lactation/breeding and vary it for summer then , teagascs model is not a one size fits all , more than one way to milk a cow and for fragmented farms I think stocking the milking platform at 4/5 cows to the ha and buffer feed is the way to go until they try stop us at that too.

mahoney_j · 26-12-2020 5:00pm

Mf310 wrote: »

I take it your not a dairy farmer bass, I actually wouldnt agree with your comments at all. Contractor takes no longer than 45 minutes from leaving his yard to being back in his yard after my load id be of the thinking the 75€ is money for jam. If i bought my own machine itd only take 30 minutes out of my day to go for a load and tractor is already here mostly idle at back end of year anyway. and I have the convenience of doing it when I want to , before it begins to rain rather than him coming after it has poured rain or him coming 10 minutes before I go to start milking. I agree that il be doing more loads with my own machine and if I had my own machine id probably even stock the farm higher maybe up to 6 cows/ha on the milking platform and be going with it even more so .

Planning to up stocking levels yes but I never said the business cant stand the cost of paying for contracting, I just feel id make more money by cutting him out of it and maximise my profits here. Its a business we are in after all. There is surplus grass being cut here all throughout the summer which is hardship , im of the thinking its far easier manage a highly stocked farm rather than taking paddocks out here and there every week. Its also very easy to buffer feed when set up right. I wouldnt actually call any dairy farmer an idiot to be zerograzing or feeding meal?

See another comment there not to be chasing marginal milk. Is a bit of buffer feeding in the spring and autumn marginal milk? Questionable. Regardless there is going to be buffer feeding needed to be done in the shoulders of the year , some of the most profitable dairy farms are the ones stocked at 4/ha and over.

Buffer fed cows right to mid June this year with high quality bales butterfats proteins all up in previous years despite what you’d read about silage killing proteins and affecting clean outs

Markcheese · 26-12-2020 5:49pm

Anyone using a baler to zero graze ? https://youtu.be/i6mWOA0u9hI

You'd need to mow first obviously , but the same kit would do during summer for baling , the bale trolly on the back would allow you carry 4 bales off the field at once , wether you carry them home on the rig ,or put them on a bale trailer ..

Zero grazing

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