WTLP new EU emission test

Mc-BigE · 22-08-2018 3:55pm #1

Ive search on boards and i cant find existing threads about WLTP for petrol/diesel cars , only in the EV section.
WLTP (Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure)
which means all cars sold new in Ireland from Sep 18 must have been tested to this new test, which is more than likely showing a bigger CO2 figure then before.

So when you go to most dealers website they mention WLTP, but most don't give the new figure yet (open to correction), and infact some give the old figure and give you a warning that if you order the car now (Aug 2018) , the WLTP figure "might" be different to the figure stated.

This is all very mysterious, as surely all the manufactures must have the new figure by now, this info will determine how much VRT/Motor tax you pay, so this info should be disclosed before purchase.

Also regarding Motortax, will the CO2 bands stay the same as they are now or will the government realign them to suit the revised figures?

Details on the test can be seen in the link below

http://wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/

edited: just reading through that article i posted above and the section about taxation interested me:

"The European Commission should make clear to member states that the shift to WLTP should not negatively impact vehicle taxation by increasing costs for consumers.
National governments should also adapt their taxation systems, since WLTP will result in a higher CO2 value for the one and same vehicle compared to NEDC. If they fail to do so, the introduction of the new test procedure will increase the financial burden on consumers."

so will the irish government have a new CO2 pre 2019 figure and CO2 post 2019 figure ( 2008 all over again) for motor tax?

http://wltpfacts.eu/wltp-how-much-car-tax/

ofcork · 22-08-2018 5:23pm

Ive only heard BMW advertising that all their models are compliant with WTLP.

R.O.R · 22-08-2018 5:33pm

Most of the manufacturers are struggling with WLTP and still haven't released their post WLTP pricing.

From the top of my head:
BMW
Volvo
Ford

Are now publishing new vehicle pricing with their new Co2 emissions.

JLR have very recently released all their pricing, but I don't think it's up on the websites yet.

Only new models within the VAG group, that were designed to meet WLTP (A7 may be the only one) are currently available to order as they have been certified for WLTP. No factory orders have been accepted by Audi/VW/SEAT/Skoda for the past few months and have only been selling from stock on the ground.

I suspect there may be some realignments on the VRT/Road Tax bands in the budget at the start of October, to lessen the impact of WLTP on the pricing.

It's all a very, very big mess at the moment.

Henry Ford III · 23-08-2018 8:14am

This sounds like a small bit of a pending disaster tbh, and it's only weeks away.

There'll be uproar if car prices go up significantly because if it.

R.O.R · 23-08-2018 9:00am

OSI wrote: »

Have you seen it yet R.O.R? I had only heard on the grapevine that Disco prices were going to see a 10k rise, be interested to see if that bore true.

Not full pricing - only aware as I had an F-Type on order which was produced after WLTP and had a significant price increase. Only sent pricing on that and that pricing is up on our system now.

ELM327 · 23-08-2018 9:10am

I mean it would make sense as VRT is emissions based and now the emissions figure has changed upwards that VRT and motor tax will rise.
I can't see how the comment above that member states should ensure no financial penalty can be achieved, without changes to the motor tax and VRT thresholds. This would be a bad step to take with the looming EU emissions fines.

CJhaughey · 23-08-2018 9:36am

As it stands with the current system there are 57 different bands for tax rates, the system is very unwieldy as it stands and is grossly unfair with regard to pre and post 08 cars which were the same Co2 emissions.
The sensible thing to do here would be to take an average for all the vehicles in a given tax class and apply that as the tax so average all the tax rates in Co2 and CC systems and average them out.
I doubt that will happen because it made a mess of the 08 scenario and this will be an even bigger mess than that if implemented poorly.

zilog_jones · 23-08-2018 10:39am

I know the Prius WLTP figures have been published earlier this year:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-toyota-prius-co2-figures-push-it-over-congestion-charge-exemption-zone

15" wheels: 70 -> 78 g/km CO2, 94 -> 83.1 MPG
17" wheels: 76 -> 82 g/km CO2, 87? -> 78.5 MPG
Plug-in: 22 -> 28 g/km CO2

I still don't think those fuel economy figures are realistic, compared to the US EPA's 62 MPG (imperial) which is totally achievable in the real world. Toyota are still advertising the complete bullshítty NEDC 282 MPG for the Plug-in - couldn't find WLTP figures for that (160 MPG combined according to US EPA).

mikeecho · 23-08-2018 3:06pm

I'm a firm believer that we should have flat rates of motor tax.
A petrol, be it 1L or 5L .. €x
Diesel €y, electric €z, commercial, vintage etc etc.

It's like the tv licence.. doesn't matter if you have a 14" or 65" .. it's the same price.

mikeecho · 23-08-2018 3:10pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

I know the Prius WLTP figures have been published earlier this year:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-toyota-prius-co2-figures-push-it-over-congestion-charge-exemption-zone

15" wheels: 70 -> 78 g/km CO2, 94 -> 83.1 MPG
17" wheels: 76 -> 82 g/km CO2, 87? -> 78.5 MPG
Plug-in: 22 -> 28 g/km CO2

I still don't think those fuel economy figures are realistic, compared to the US EPA's 62 MPG (imperial) which is totally achievable in the real world. Toyota are still advertising the complete bullshítty NEDC 282 MPG for the Plug-in - couldn't find WLTP figures for that (160 MPG combined according to US EPA).

Just read this, and what came to mind was.. how long before Car manufacturers start offering cars with small steel wheels that will provide a lower co2 reading, then offer larger alloys as an aftermarket item though the dealership once the sale has been competed.

R.O.R · 23-08-2018 3:16pm

mikeecho wrote: »

Just read this, and what came to mind was.. how long before Car manufacturers start offering cars with small steel wheels that will provide a lower co2 reading, then offer larger alloys as an aftermarket item though the dealership once the sale has been competed.

The full WLTP regulations that come in to force in 2020 (maybe later) will put a stop to that. Every option fitted by manufacturer or dealer will have a knock on effect on the Co2 figures.

One of my supplies said they are already having to get customers to sign waivers when after market tow bars are fitted at the dealership. Waiver says something along the lines of "we are aware that the Tow Bar may affect the Co2 rating of the vehicle".

Mc-BigE · 23-08-2018 3:23pm

this all sounds like we're now going to have 3 different tax bands for private cars

engine CC based cars 1989 to 2008
CO2 based cars 2008 to 2018
CO2 (WTLP) based cars 2018 onwards

I seriously doubt the revenue will allow you to tax say a 2017 UK import , imported in 2019 at the new bands (TAX & VRT), as they will loose money

that's assuming the revenue re-align the co2 bands to suit the new WLTP Figures

Mc-BigE · 23-08-2018 3:27pm

R.O.R wrote: »

The full WLTP regulations that come in to force in 2020 (maybe later) will put a stop to that. Every option fitted by manufacturer or dealer will have a knock on effect on the Co2 figures.

One of my supplies said they are already having to get customers to sign waivers when after market tow bars are fitted at the dealership. Waiver says something along the lines of "we are aware that the Tow Bar may affect the Co2 rating of the vehicle".

this all sounds crazy to me.

Casati · 30-08-2018 10:40am

This WLTP seems to be a mess, manufacturers don’t seem to know what bands cars will fall into and have halted production, also many are not able to provide pricing yet for Jan reg. Who will order a new car without knowing the pricing- not anybody who ordered a petrol car in 2007 for delivery in Jan 2008 anyway

This is going to be another massive hit to car sales, especially if prices rise for 2019’s due to higher CO2 bands, seems really amazing that the industry is not ahead of the game

I see BMW are stating that cars are now WLTP tested and have changed vrt bands as a result but many others have disclaimers in new prices eg the VW family, Ford, Hyundai

Be v surprised if the govt introduce a new band of vrt and tax rates too if cars are seen as producing more co2 (even if the actual amount is the same the optics will rule govt direction I’m sure)

Eric Cartman · 30-08-2018 10:56am

This is just like the EURO6 thing all over again 'set unreasonable limits and rather than conform , Everyone cheats'
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 11:01am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

...Everyone cheats...

Apart from VAG, who got fined megabucks, who else got fingered for cheating?

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 30-08-2018 11:04am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Apart from VAG, who got fined megabucks, who else got fingered for cheating?

Fiat/Chrysler/Jeep, Nissan, Renault, Mercedes, Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, BMW etc etc. Everyone basically.

DaveyDave · 30-08-2018 11:05am

The previous test wasn't realistic at all so anything close to daily driving is going to be a big change. Most of us know you aren't going to get 90mpg out of a Prius and it's not our fault the test took so long to get updated.

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but it's going to be bad for Ireland because everything is so expensive here. Can't wait for VRT to go up. My A3 band Golf is already 39% tax.

Cue the government increasing taxes to makeup for the lack of car sales. On top of the increased VAT rate, USC, PRSI going up, property tax, sugar tax etc.

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 11:10am

OSI wrote: »

You ask this continuously in these threads, and every time you're provided with information. Yet you keep asking it, why?

I don't recall being provided with any information.

Can you provide details of comparable fines and compensation?

Eric Cartman · 30-08-2018 11:14am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Apart from VAG, who got fined megabucks, who else got fingered for cheating?

VDO , Bosch and Denso all made provisions in their ECU's to allow this to happen, so everyone played the game

ELM327 · 30-08-2018 11:55am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

VDO , Bosch and Denso all made provisions in their ECU's to allow this to happen, so everyone played the game

No one else got disciplined though, right?

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 12:36pm

Seems to be the case as far as I can see. I'm looking forward to the often posted evidence mentioned by OSI earlier though.

ELM327 · 30-08-2018 1:39pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Seems to be the case as far as I can see. I'm looking forward to the often posted evidence mentioned by OSI earlier though.

I mean I stand to be corrected on this but I have not read any other actions against any other non-VAG companies

Some top brass in the US for VAG were given jail time AFAIR, who else was given jail time?

username?! · 30-08-2018 2:22pm

This all sounds like a disaster lads. Of course the consumer will take the big hit here and we will see higher prices and tax rates.

ELM327 · 30-08-2018 2:29pm

username?! wrote: »

This all sounds like a disaster lads. Of course the consumer will take the big hit here and we will see higher prices and tax rates.

But if it's accurate taxation as opposed to the fanciful current stats (current tax is based on faked emissions that are not achievable) what reason is there to complain?

If I had my way, motor tax for the year would be set at the NCT by the actual emissions produced by the car. You have cases where an 08 car is still taxed on the emissions from 08, even though it could have done 400k km since then.

zilog_jones · 30-08-2018 2:49pm

The NCT doesn't test for CO2 or NOx...

ELM327 · 30-08-2018 2:51pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

The NCT doesn't test for CO2 or NOx...

I wasn't aware that it doesnt. If it doesnt then it should. How do people "fail on emissions"

username?! · 30-08-2018 2:55pm

ELM327 wrote: »

But if it's accurate taxation as opposed to the fanciful current stats (current tax is based on faked emissions that are not achievable) what reason is there to complain?

If I had my way, motor tax for the year would be set at the NCT by the actual emissions produced by the car. You have cases where an 08 car is still taxed on the emissions from 08, even though it could have done 400k km since then.

Reason to complain is that we might have 3 tax systems.

Casati · 30-08-2018 2:56pm

ELM327 wrote: »

But if it's accurate taxation as opposed to the fanciful current stats (current tax is based on faked emissions that are not achievable) what reason is there to complain?

If I had my way, motor tax for the year would be set at the NCT by the actual emissions produced by the car. You have cases where an 08 car is still taxed on the emissions from 08, even though it could have done 400k km since then.

It could hurt new sales next year if we see big jumps, not only in vrt but also annual tax and make 2018 cars inc 2018 more valuable, kind of the opposite to 2008... we could see cars made in 2019 worth less than a 2018 if the tax increase is significant !!

Eg if a car with co2 of 139 was reclassified as 156 it would move from 280 tax to 570 per annum.

I’ve no idea is the movement in bands could be so major mind you so the net impact mightn’t be anything like this

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 2:58pm

ELM327 wrote:

But if it's accurate taxation as opposed to the fanciful current stats (current tax is based on faked emissions that are not achievable) what reason is there to complain?

Nobody likes paying more tax.

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 3:00pm

Casati wrote:

It could hurt new sales next year if we see big jumps, not only in vrt but also annual tax and make 2018 cars inc 2018 more valuable, kind of the opposite to 2008... we could see cars made in 2019 worth less than a 2018 if the tax increase is significant !!

I agree. I've a new car due on Saturday ðŸ˜

ELM327 · 30-08-2018 3:03pm

Casati wrote: »

It could hurt new sales next year if we see big jumps, not only in vrt but also annual tax and make 2018 cars inc 2018 more valuable, kind of the opposite to 2008... we could see cars made in 2019 worth less than a 2018 if the tax increase is significant !!

Eg if a car with co2 of 139 was reclassified as 156 it would move from 280 tax to 570 per annum.

I’ve no idea is the movement in bands could be so major mind you so the net impact mightn’t be anything like this

So, there's precedent for it is what you're saying?

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Nobody likes paying more tax.

Of course, but if you've been dodging it now based on a methodology that everyone and their dog knew was a fudge you can't complain IMO

RedorDead · 30-08-2018 3:06pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This sounds like a small bit of a pending disaster tbh, and it's only weeks away.

There'll be uproar if car prices go up significantly because if it.

The EU says the aim of all this is to ensure more realistic emission readings that reflect RDE (real world driving) but should be introduced at no extra cost to the consumer.

Good luck with that! Especially in Ireland where a 1g increase in CO2 in the higher up bands can lead to a price increase of nearly €5000.

It will lead to mass confusion for consumers next year.

To summarise:

NEDC cars can be registered up until 31/08/2019 if derogated by manufacturers correctly. These would be cars built before end of May 2018.

Newer cars from Sep 1st onwards have to be measured on NEDC 2.0 values which are a sort of halfway house measurement of Co2 values - somewhere between the NEDC values and the new much higher WLTP values.

So for example if a car had say a Co2 value of 138 back in 2017. From Sep 2018 under NEDC 2.0 it might go to 145 but from Jan 2020 when only WLTP Co2 values are permitted it will go as high as 180 bringing the new car taxation from 19% to 30%. Realistically think Manufacturers and Governments are going to fund all that? No chance!

Henry Ford III · 30-08-2018 3:50pm

They need to reduce VRT etc so it's revenue neutral. Can't see that happening though. A couple of thousand Euro on new car prices will definitely have an effect on sales.

Casati · 30-08-2018 4:08pm

RedorDead wrote: »

The EU says the aim of all this is to ensure more realistic emission readings that reflect RDE (real world driving) but should be introduced at no extra cost to the consumer.

Good luck with that! Especially in Ireland where a 1g increase in CO2 in the higher up bands can lead to a price increase of nearly €5000.

It will lead to mass confusion for consumers next year.

To summarise:

NEDC cars can be registered up until 31/08/2019 if derogated by manufacturers correctly.

These would be cars built before end of May 2018.

Newer cars from Sep 1st onwards have to be measured on NEDC 2.0 values which are a sort of halfway house measurement of Co2 values - somewhere between the NEDC values and the new much higher WLTP values.

So for example if a car had say a Co2 value of 138 back in 2017. From Sep 2018 under NEDC 2.0 it might go to 145 but from Jan 2020 when only WLTP Co2 values are permitted it will go as high as 180 bringing the new car taxation from 19% to 30%. Realistically think Manufacturers and Governments are going to fund all that? No chance!

So NEDC 2.0 will be in impact for any new car you order now for delivery next year, and we won’t actually see the WLTP implementation for another year after that? If revenue tries to neutralize things then we’d need a new tax system for 2019 and another new one for 2020!

R.O.R · 30-08-2018 4:18pm

There's some cars, produced between certain dates, that have to be registered by the end of this month, so if you are looking for a new car, head to a dealer tomorrow, or this evening if you don't want a demo!

Casati · 30-08-2018 6:22pm

R.O.R wrote: »

There's some cars, produced between certain dates, that have to be registered by the end of this month, so if you are looking for a new car, head to a dealer tomorrow, or this evening if you don't want a demo!

If they are not registered what’s happens- ie will the vrt rise dramatically?

R.O.R · 30-08-2018 7:47pm

Casati wrote: »

If they are not registered what’s happens- ie will the vrt rise dramatically?

They can't be registered, so there will be quite a few ex. Demo models available in September.

mikeecho · 30-08-2018 10:30pm

Maybe we'll end up going back to the cc valuation of motor tax, but one rate for petrol and another for diesel.

Time and Budget 2019 will tell.
(Budget will probably happen in October)

Widdensushi · 30-08-2018 10:35pm

mikeecho wrote: »

Maybe we'll end up going back to the cc valuation of motor tax, but one rate for petrol and another for diesel.

Time and Budget 2019 will tell.
(Budget will probably happen in October)

No

mikeecho · 30-08-2018 10:49pm

Widdensushi wrote: »

No

No, that doesn't suit me
No, it will remain the same
No, a new different system will be created for new cars.
No, a 3rd tax system will be introduced
No, I haven't a clue
No, the budget won't be in October
No, I don't want more peas
No, cos that's what Ulster says.

Can you clarify ?... No ?

ELM327 · 31-08-2018 7:44am

Nissan Ireland guy on news talk this morning calling for the banning of "imported dirty diesels from the UK as they don't meet Euro 6C".
Well newsflash, not many cars sold 6-18months old (like most imports) do anyway!!
And there was a certain hilarity about the head of an Irish motor company wanting to ban the sale of UK sourced cars.

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 31-08-2018 8:00am

mikeecho wrote: »

Maybe we'll end up going back to the cc valuation of motor tax, but one rate for petrol and another for diesel.

Time and Budget 2019 will tell.
(Budget will probably happen in October)

Probably? It will happen on October 9th...

grogi · 31-08-2018 8:16am

R.O.R wrote: »

The full WLTP regulations that come in to force in 2020 (maybe later) will put a stop to that. Every option fitted by manufacturer or dealer will have a knock on effect on the Co2 figures.

One of my supplies said they are already having to get customers to sign waivers when after market tow bars are fitted at the dealership. Waiver says something along the lines of "we are aware that the Tow Bar may affect the Co2 rating of the vehicle".

Fitted after. Customer buys car, leaves and comes next day to get replacement wheels...

Henry Ford III · 31-08-2018 8:24am

I can see an ass humping coming for new car prices.

grogi · 31-08-2018 8:42am

RedorDead wrote: »

Good luck with that! Especially in Ireland where a 1g increase in CO2 in the higher up bands can lead to a price increase of nearly €5000.

How did you calculate that?! The biggest VRT increase is 4% (exp. from B2 to C).

If 4% is €5000, the pre-vrt price would have to be €125000. While technically possible, I think that it really is not really that worried-some for the buyer in that territory.

Realistically we'll see increase of 1% - which will be €500 or even less.

Casati · 31-08-2018 11:33am

grogi wrote: »

How did you calculate that?! The biggest VRT increase is 4% (exp. from B2 to C).

If 4% is €5000, the pre-vrt price would have to be €125000. While technically possible, I think that it really is not really that worried-some for the buyer in that territory.

Realistically we'll see increase of 1% - which will be €500 or even less.

We might see some cars jumping more than one band, eg my example of a car that is 139 moving to 156 which would see vrt move from 19% to 27% - say on something like a Kia Sorento this could add 5k to the price of the car. Hopefully most cars only move one band, I guess we will find out from next month onwards

RedorDead · 04-09-2018 4:51pm

grogi wrote: »

How did you calculate that?! The biggest VRT increase is 4% (exp. from B2 to C).

If 4% is €5000, the pre-vrt price would have to be €125000. While technically possible, I think that it really is not really that worried-some for the buyer in that territory.

Realistically we'll see increase of 1% - which will be €500 or even less.

Audi SQ7 is a very good example. Currently sits on 190g (E) and is priced at €122,000 - a 1g increase moves it from 30% VRT to 34% VRT (F) - an increase of €4500. Stick a few options on - metallic and a pack and you are at €5,000.

DaveyDave · 20-10-2018 9:23am

Haven't seen many posting results of the new WTLP testing, don't know if there's many available. This is the newest thread I could find. VW Ireland don't have data for many cars, pulled the info from the German site. No GTI or R, will be interested to see how bad they are.

Just browsing randomly:

VW T-Roc 1.6 diesel, 6 speed manual:
Fuel consumption - combined: 4.30 l/100km
CO2: 113 g/km (17% VRT)

Consumption Combined 5.40 l/100km
CO2: 141.00 g/km (23% VRT)

Touareg 231hp
Fuel consumption - combined: 6.60 l/100km
CO2: 173 g/km (30% VRT)

Consumption Combined: 8.00 l/100km
CO2: 210.00 g/km (34% VRT)

Golf 1.0 TSI DSG (110hp vs 115hp WTLP)
Fuel consumption: 4.90 l/100km
CO2: 110 g/km (16% VRT)

Consumption Combined: 6.1 l/100km
CO2: 138.0 g/km (19% VRT)

grogi · 20-10-2018 10:08am

DaveyDave wrote: »

Haven't seen many posting results of the new WTLP testing, don't know if there's many available. This is the newest thread I could find. VW Ireland don't have data for many cars, pulled the info from the German site. No GTI or R, will be interested to see how bad they are.

Just browsing randomly:

VW T-Roc 1.6 diesel, 6 speed manual:
Fuel consumption - combined: 4.30 l/100km
CO2: 113 g/km (17% VRT)

Consumption Combined 5.40 l/100km
CO2: 141.00 g/km (23% VRT)

Touareg 231hp
Fuel consumption - combined: 6.60 l/100km
CO2: 173 g/km (30% VRT)

Consumption Combined: 8.00 l/100km
CO2: 210.00 g/km (34% VRT)

Golf 1.0 TSI DSG (110hp vs 115hp WTLP)
Fuel consumption: 4.90 l/100km
CO2: 110 g/km (16% VRT)

Consumption Combined: 6.1 l/100km
CO2: 138.0 g/km (19% VRT)

Petrol VRT seems impacted less than diesels... Good...

DaveyDave · 20-10-2018 10:39am

grogi wrote: »

Petrol VRT seems impacted less than diesels... Good...

Diesel sales down 20% compared to last year, at least we're still fairly consistently getting back to petrol but still only 41% vs 71% back in 2007.

I was just comparing manual vs DSG and it's quite surprising...

1.0 TSI
Manual
4,7 l/100km -> 5,6 l/100km
106 g/km -> 126,0 g/km

DSG
4,8 l/100km -> 6,1 l/100km
109 g/km -> 138,0 g/km

WTLP new EU emission test

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