We need to adopt a no-commute culture

beejee · 12-12-2019 6:28pm

Another "great interrupter" tells us of the advantages less commuting.

If you and your like didn't "interrupt", aka destroy, normal social expectancies, maybe people would be able to afford housing closer to work and wouldn't have to live in a "Dublin commuter town" like fecking kerry.

Globalisation is the drug, the I.T. bro's are the drug makers, and the politicians/media are the propaganda. Two-faced bs.

Ever notice how EVERYTHING these people suggest always leads to having less? Less ownership, less stability, less accountability, less responsibility, less rights, less individuality, less identity. All you need is the right publicist to twist it into a "positive".

The convenience of working from home? Easier to replace with someone else, anywhere, soon.

Destroy, have people adapt to lower expectation, destroy further, have them adapt to even lower expectation.

And so on.

_Kaiser_ · 12-12-2019 6:32pm

I work from home at least 1 day a week - increasingly now 2 - and at this point could never go back to working full time in an office.

It's not suitable for every company, or indeed every role in that company, but I work in IT and my colleagues are based primarily offshore anyway. I don't manage anyone directly and my day is generally made up of conference calls, respondiing to emails, IM conversations, or dealing with escalations or requests via those three methods.

I could literally do it anywhere on the planet and so for me it's perfect. The alternative is a 60 minute each way commute and a significant diesel bill at the end of the week.

But, I don't take the piss either. I have converted one of the bedrooms to a home office with a proper desk, dual screens, docking station, keyboard etc just as I'd have in the office (mostly because it makes my life much easier too). I generally log on earlier than I would if I Was commuting, and work to the same time. I don't sit watching The Chase re-runs for the day and because of the nature of the job, I get more done without face to face interruptions.

It's not for everyone though. I'm very independent anyway and quite comfortable with my own company. As most of my mates are living all over the place anyway, we rarely meet up in person, and if I was commuting I wouldn't be home early enough in the evenings to do much anyway - at least this way I can get other stuff done if I need to as well.

It's become an essential for me when I consider job offers. That and flexible start/finish times as that does help with the commute too.

road_high · 12-12-2019 6:32pm

I think if you can have a mic of home working and office then that’s more ideal. Also have to remember for the vast majority of work it simply isn’t possible to work from home. Not everyone is in an office based role

BDI · 12-12-2019 6:36pm

I’d have a serious amount of air conditioning and plumbing if I worked from home. Toilets, radiators and fan coil units on every spare piece of wall and ceiling. I don’t know how I could afford to pay myself though.

Probably not a great business model.

beejee · 12-12-2019 6:38pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I work from home at least 1 day a week - increasingly now 2 - and at this point could never go back to working full time in an office.

It's not suitable for every company, or indeed every role in that company, but I work in IT and my colleagues are based primarily offshore anyway. I don't manage anyone directly and my day is generally made up of conference calls, respondiing to emails, IM conversations, or dealing with escalations or requests via those three methods.

I could literally do it anywhere on the planet and so for me it's perfect. The alternative is a 60 minute each way commute and a significant diesel bill at the end of the week.

But, I don't take the piss either. I have converted one of the bedrooms to a home office with a proper desk, dual screens, docking station, keyboard etc just as I'd have in the office (mostly because it makes my life much easier too). I generally log on earlier than I would if I Was commuting, and work to the same time. I don't sit watching The Chase re-runs for the day and because of the nature of the job, I get more done without face to face interruptions.

It's not for everyone though. I'm very independent anyway and quite comfortable with my own company. As most of my mates are living all over the place anyway, we rarely meet up in person, and if I was commuting I wouldn't be home early enough in the evenings to do much anyway - at least this way I can get other stuff done if I need to as well.

It's become an essential for me when I consider job offers. That and flexible start/finish times as that does help with the commute too.

As per my post above, you may find that your "replaceability" will increase the less of a physical entity you become.

You can do your job from anywhere in the world? Great!

But if someone can do it much, much cheaper, from anywhere in the world... It's not rocket science behind these tech-driven ideas, it's very clear where the incentive lies. More profit, less expenditure. As always!

_Kaiser_ · 12-12-2019 6:43pm

beejee wrote: »

As per my post above, you may find that your "replaceability" will increase the less of a physical entity you become.

You can do your job from anywhere in the world? Great!

But if someone can do it much, much cheaper, from anywhere in the world... It's not rocket science behind these tech-driven ideas, it's very clear where the incentive lies. More profit, less expenditure. As always!

If that's going to happen, it'll happen regardless of whether I'm sitting where I am now at my home office setup, or in a building an hour away.

My colleagues and managers are abroad anyway. My role doesn't require onsite presence as a primary factor anyway. My role is primarily oversight of offshore (and some local) teams but not day to day people management of those groups.

It's also a senior role and so mobility and flexibility is a must anyway. I don't mind working a bit longer, or keeping an eye on a project over a weekend because when I need the flexibility in return it's available to me - as for example tomorrow when I'll be away for agood part of the day for my little lad's school play, but not expected to take it as AL either.

ArnoldJRimmer · 12-12-2019 6:44pm

beejee wrote: »

As per my post above, you may find that your "replaceability" will increase the less of a physical entity you become.

You can do your job from anywhere in the world? Great!

But if someone can do it much, much cheaper, from anywhere in the world... It's not rocket science behind these tech-driven ideas, it's very clear where the incentive lies. More profit, less expenditure. As always!

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that companies are doing this solely for their employees benefit. But at the moment, it can be mutually beneficial for both employer and employee

And when it comes to finding ways of cutting costs, but do you honestly think that they won't find another way of moving your job if it suits them? This is the equivalent of the person in the office who refuses to cede control of anything they do, or train anyone else up on their tasks, in order to 'keep themselves indispensable.' Never works in the long run. Keeping yourself in a miserable commute is not going to change any long term plans for that company

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 12-12-2019 6:52pm

Strumms wrote: »

You have to be rigid, when the boss says ... “ is it ok if I contact you tonight if ? “... your answer... “well I’m going to a concert, not going to be able to hear ya”... for you and your colleagues...DONT get dragged into this ‘always contactable on call’ crap...

Flexibility is better than rigidity, in my view.

If you're willing to answer some email at home, or take a occasional evening/weekend call, your boss won't mind as much if you have to make a personal call from work or leave early to run an errand or collect a child from school.

And I say this from the perspective of having managed a large team myself. Far too many employees expect flexibility for personal phone calls, errands, sick children, getting the car serviced, etc., but then complain if they have to give one minute back outside 9-5.

The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street. If you want flexibility, you have to be willing to be flexible in return.

Assetbacked · 12-12-2019 7:09pm

I am more introverted as a person and would probably refuse a job if it was in an open plan environment unless there was the option to work from home in order to balance the forced social aspect of open plan. Right now, I have a certain level of freedom to come and go though it is rather restricted. What I mean by this is being able to avoid small talk and interacting with colleagues - I arrive to work either well before or well after nine, do not take lunch at the same time as others and avoid the lift - all to ensure as minimal small talk interactions as possible.

For me flexibility is ensuring I can manage my own day as efficiently as possible to work and do the small extra curricular tasks I like to tend to outside of work. In terms of commuting, I live close to the office on purpose as it is wasted time and you do not usually get paid for travelling to work. I would be more productive to be at home working rather than in the office on the basis that it optimises my time usage in a day by giving me more freedom to manage other aspects of my life. Additionally, it would facilitate cheaper rent and also open up more attractive locations to live as commuting would not be an issue. For this I would be grateful and reward my employer by offering loyalty, appreciation and hard work from my home office.

Ipso · 12-12-2019 7:23pm

beejee wrote: »

Another "great interrupter" tells us of the advantages less commuting.

If you and your like didn't "interrupt", aka destroy, normal social expectancies, maybe people would be able to afford housing closer to work and wouldn't have to live in a "Dublin commuter town" like fecking kerry.

Globalisation is the drug, the I.T. bro's are the drug makers, and the politicians/media are the propaganda. Two-faced bs.

Ever notice how EVERYTHING these people suggest always leads to having less? Less ownership, less stability, less accountability, less responsibility, less rights, less individuality, less identity. All you need is the right publicist to twist it into a "positive".

The convenience of working from home? Easier to replace with someone else, anywhere, soon.

Destroy, have people adapt to lower expectation, destroy further, have them adapt to even lower expectation.

And so on.

With a bit of luck their day is coming.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/say-goodbye-millennial-urban-lifestyle/599839/

Strumms · 12-12-2019 7:28pm

Rayden Hollow Hanger wrote: »

Flexibility is better than rigidity, in my view.

If you're willing to answer some email at home, or take a occasional evening/weekend call, your boss won't mind as much if you have to make a personal call from work or leave early to run an errand or collect a child from school.

And I say this from the perspective of having managed a large team myself. Far too many employees expect flexibility for personal phone calls, errands, sick children, getting the car serviced, etc., but then complain if they have to give one minute back outside 9-5.

The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street. If you want flexibility, you have to be willing to be flexible in return.

Flexibility is great when it’s a TWO way street... again in my last job it had worked like that for a number of years very successfully but that change in management saw their appetite for flexibility from their employees behalf grow significantly to the point we were almost ‘on call’ without being payed to be... yet we needed a dig out with a slightly earlier finish once in a blue moon we are getting... “ok but what can you do in return, I need someone to cover the full Saturday shift after you come back...”. My reply was ... “ instead of thinking what I CAN do think that I’ve DONE THREE Saturdays out of last six, short notice, you were stuck, I was there”.... “ok I’ll get back to you” :rolleyes:

scamalert · 12-12-2019 7:46pm

well speaking just for IT field ireland does fall behing masively given we already have good BB in most towns places etc, yet look at any IT job and its in back arse of dublin where you need a cark,train and walking to get to place, and yet even starting roles could easily be run over intranet or wan to do most tasks.

as theres good few jobs that offer work from home or remote but usually qualifications experience required is ridicilous, and some companies did make that leap but would agree everything could be done on any pc with some tweaks for security and customer wouldnt have a clue if its in Dublin or other side of the globe with 1-2 days a week meeting catch up which again could be done over skype or the likes to conference in, but sadly IT isnt only industry thus small percentage as to many physical jobs that commuting is the only way.

kippy · 12-12-2019 7:53pm

beejee wrote: »

Another "great interrupter" tells us of the advantages less commuting.

If you and your like didn't "interrupt", aka destroy, normal social expectancies, maybe people would be able to afford housing closer to work and wouldn't have to live in a "Dublin commuter town" like fecking kerry.

Globalisation is the drug, the I.T. bro's are the drug makers, and the politicians/media are the propaganda. Two-faced bs.

Ever notice how EVERYTHING these people suggest always leads to having less? Less ownership, less stability, less accountability, less responsibility, less rights, less individuality, less identity. All you need is the right publicist to twist it into a "positive".

The convenience of working from home? Easier to replace with someone else, anywhere, soon.

Destroy, have people adapt to lower expectation, destroy further, have them adapt to even lower expectation.

And so on.

Would ya prefer we revert back to the 1800's or even the 1980's?

It's a very cynical view you have there.

Mrs OBumble · 12-12-2019 8:03pm

seamus wrote: »

Parents being at home during the day limits the amount of childcare required. Stops this nightmare of dropping kids off at 6am and picking them up at 7pm.

Agree with you on everything but this. If a person is genuinely working at home, then they can not be doing childcare at the same time.

But there's an aspect not considered yet, which is how new employees learn and develop. Working from home doing something you know how to do is fine.

But if you've got to do something you don't know how to do - or even worse something you think you know but don't - that's quite different.

Can you imagine a graduate, fresh out of college and in their first job, working from home?

And to answer another point from pages ago: public service jobs aren't rare. Many, many workers need to be in the office to serve customers.

Strumms · 13-12-2019 12:52pm

In the late 80’s before the internet and PCs my friends mother worked from home doing payroll for a very large company, she had an old payroll adding machine that looked like something off the ark, but if things were kicking off with the kids misbehaving, her trying to work, watching the dinner in the oven and prepping everything else that goes with it... she’d be loosing the head... understandably.

Why you’d want that... work / personal life gots to be separated.

jam_mac_jam · 13-12-2019 1:45pm

You still use childcare, but you gain the commuting time. So if you leave at eight now you might be able to drop them to school and start work. You could gain two hours a day or more for some people.

arctictree · 13-12-2019 1:55pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You still use childcare, but you gain the commuting time. So if you leave at eight now you might be able to drop them to school and start work. You could gain two hours a day or more for some people.

Much easier when you have older kids. Like from around 6 upwards. I work from home and anytime the kids are sick, they can just stay at home, no childminder needed. Now, babies/toddlers would be totally different!

PauloMN · 13-12-2019 2:20pm

I've been working from home for the best part of 15 years now. I think it's definitely getting more popular, and it's certainly becoming more practical from a technology perspective with decent broadband.

I think to make it work, you need these elements:
- Suitable work (some jobs more suited to it than others)
- Trust, if you can't trust someone to do their job, you have bigger issues that are nothing to do with remote working
- Daily communications with wider team whether in the office or remote
- Agreement on communications methods (Slack, Hangout, Skype etc.) so that people can contact each other quickly regardless of where they are
- Balance between remote and work (I'd be in the office for 2 days per week normally)
- Kids need to be old enough to appreciate the situation, you can't work from home and mind babies, toddlers or young kids.

Benefits are to both the employee and employer. Obvious benefits to the employee are cutting down the commute, being around for kids when they come home from school etc., reducing or cutting out reliance on child-minders. Call me old-fashioned, but I definitely think there's something nice about parents being at home when the kids come back from school, even if you're working.

For those working across timezones it makes a lot of sense. Going on calls with west coast US at 5pm when you've been in since 7am isn't good if you've a commute home starting at 6pm in town - working from home means you can work around that. That benefits everyone.

I can't believe the negatively towards it from some quarters, it's a no-brainer for me, and like some others here, I wouldn't consider a job that offered zero WFH possibility. More people are getting used to it, so employers will need to consider offering it as standard otherwise they could lose good potential employees.

Lillyfae · 13-12-2019 2:21pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Of course I can evaluate what they are doing. I don't need to babysit them as they are all very good at their jobs. A bit of guidance or support rather then sitting on their backs.
You may need to revaluate your staff if that's needed. Also I don't need my manager around to do work, I am not a child.

People find this very difficult to understand. If a manager works in a company with a wfh culture, they won’t hire someone they can’t trust to independently work from home.

I’m lucky that there’s such a culture at my company that was well established before I started. I would do 1 or 2 out of 4 days a week from home. I purposely plan telcons, or work that I need a high level of concentration for on those days. Some of my colleagues do more than half their week from home, some none at all. We are all highly specialized in our fields. It allows our employer to search further afield than within a small radius of the physical office for specialized workers, providing flex desks for up to 3 people to share rather than 3 separate work spaces, reduces the carbon footprint which improves our environmental impact.

Of course there are departments where people need to be onsite all the time by nature of the work and those who work entirely remotely. I have a 30 minute face to face meeting with my manager every week to discuss what’s going on so I know what’s coming up, if there’s anything else I can take on or if I need support with something. I know what my work is, she doesn’t assign it, it’s determined by demands of the company and the direction I want to take with my career. My colleagues have similar relationships with their work and managers.

I could probably work in a company closer by or that pays more, but this flexibility is worth way more than that to me which is why I place a higher value on it. It means that my child is in the crèche for 8 hours, rather than 8 hours plus commute. It means that if I’m a bit under the weather I can log in from bed rather than feeling rubbish at my desk or calling in sick, ditto for if my child is sick. I can do a load of washing during the day, or make an appointment with the hairdresser or have a massage during office hours because I can or have already made up that time elsewhere.

I’m an adult, have been to university and proven my ability to work independently long before I got to my current position- I have established that I don’t require a babysitter.

seamus · 13-12-2019 2:30pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Agree with you on everything but this. If a person is genuinely working at home, then they can not be doing childcare at the same time.

As jam_mac_jam says, it's mostly about the commute time. Get up at 8, feed and dress the kids, walk down to the creche, back home to start working, knock off at five and wander down and collect them.

If you have two parents working, then one could start work at 7am while other drops off at the creche for 10am. Then the first parent picks the child up at 4pm. Limits the cost to the parents and the stress of the pick up and drop-off.

moycullen14 · 16-12-2019 11:10am

As others have said, it's all about the commute. If the office was next door, I'd never work from home. At busy times, it can take me over an hour each way (that's for a 25 minutes commute with no traffic). Never mind that 2 hours a day in the car costs a lot of money.

Two days a week at home is fine. Maybe I would stretch it to 3 but I wouldn't like to do it full time - think I'd go stir crazy.

There is a real financial incentive for employees in saved commute costs. In order to speed up adoption, some financial incentive for employers would be great.

Of course, WFH isn't suitable for everyone but everyone benefits if a significant % of people can do it.

arctictree · 16-12-2019 11:36am

I've been working from home now for over a decade, in the middle of Wicklow. Its not for everyone though and really depends on the work you do. Sure beats sitting on the N11 for 3 hours a day anyway!

riclad · 16-12-2019 3:02pm

It will be more viable if theres wide avaidability of fast broadband in rural area,s .
Maybe companys do not think its, secure if there,s customer data being
acessed from someone,s house,
Some people would prefer to go to work than be at home alone all day long.
Big companys change slowly.
Theres 1000,s of people who work from home in america ,
, making video,s for youtube, or twitch .
Its good for the environment ,less traffic and less pollution .

ELM327 · 16-12-2019 3:11pm

We have unlimited work from home in my team
Generally I would use it 1-2 days a month, if that.

I enjoy it as a perk but would not like it every day.
However I'd love to have 2 WFH days and 3 office days a week - except I commute with the mrs who does not have WFH in her team

seamus · 16-12-2019 3:19pm

moycullen14 wrote: »

As others have said, it's all about the commute. If the office was next door, I'd never work from home.

I honestly don't think I've ever heard someone say, "Yeah, I work from the kitchen table every day and it's grand".

Maybe if you live alone or something it can work. But a dedicated workspace is essential. Even if it's the corner of a sitting room and the room is off limits during the day, you need a dedicated "I am working" box where people are told that you strictly need to be left alone and where you have headspace to get stuff done, and where you can just sit down and start, you don't have to clean up or rearrange the place to get comfortable.

If I had a spare room I could work from or a cosy room in the garden, I'd be all over the home working thing.

B_ecke_r · 16-12-2019 4:05pm

WFH 2 days a week and it would need a big incentive @ next job to give it up

arctictree · 16-12-2019 4:38pm

seamus wrote: »

I honestly don't think I've ever heard someone say, "Yeah, I work from the kitchen table every day and it's grand".

Maybe if you live alone or something it can work. But a dedicated workspace is essential. Even if it's the corner of a sitting room and the room is off limits during the day, you need a dedicated "I am working" box where people are told that you strictly need to be left alone and where you have headspace to get stuff done, and where you can just sit down and start, you don't have to clean up or rearrange the place to get comfortable.

If I had a spare room I could work from or a cosy room in the garden, I'd be all over the home working thing.

Exactly this. I've worked remotely for years but the one common thing is having my own office space. At the moment I'm in a pimped up garden shed. Its lovely and comfortable and very private.

cameltoe86 · 16-12-2019 4:57pm

New to this thread/newish to boards.I walk to work any day it doesn't piss rain heavy. Takes about 25-30 minutes. Freshens up the head before work and I avoid the stress of sitting in traffic. When I have to drive it still takes about 15 minutes some days as traffic in my area is so bad. Im lucky in that I am so close to work. Having wfh in previous jobs I find there is too many distractions and I get nothing done. Also never have a proper desk (find kitchen tables just dont work) and I often end up in front of the tv which of course means I get nothing done. So I would choose going in to work all day long over being at home.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 16-12-2019 5:23pm

seamus wrote: »

I honestly don't think I've ever heard someone say, "Yeah, I work from the kitchen table every day and it's grand".

Maybe if you live alone or something it can work. But a dedicated workspace is essential. Even if it's the corner of a sitting room and the room is off limits during the day, you need a dedicated "I am working" box where people are told that you strictly need to be left alone and where you have headspace to get stuff done, and where you can just sit down and start, you don't have to clean up or rearrange the place to get comfortable.

If I had a spare room I could work from or a cosy room in the garden, I'd be all over the home working thing.

Well, this highlights that for most people in the early part of their career, working from home can’t really happen. Most people have to do the house-sharing for a while, sometimes a significant amount of time. Numerous people working from home in a houseshare would not work.

And in a scenario where only one housemate might work from home, there’s the awkward situation of bills being pushed up by the at-home housemate.

Raconteuse · 16-12-2019 6:48pm

My brother used to use his box room as an office when he set up his business. As soon as he was able to rent an office space though, he was out the door. Didn't like work and home being the same place. But it was handy financially as a means to an end.

I think it's a great idea for those who would like to do it though. There's something not right about most working people leaving and going at the same time, and all the stress that comes with it. I see people saying they get nothing done and end up watching TV etc but there are jobs where that just isn't an option, where there are targets, clients/customers to deal with etc. It should be encouraged where it would work out well.

I prefer getting up and heading, but that's because I have a 15-minute drive and ample parking. The only times I ever worked from home were during Ophelia and The Beast, and I must say it was quite pleasant. But for me personally, the novelty would wear off.

simongurnick · 16-12-2019 6:52pm

Work from home and i enjoy it. Go the office the odd day but you couldnt pay me to do a daily commute. Will continue to look for roles that off this flexibilty moving forward.

BeerWolf · 16-12-2019 7:10pm

Ah hah... ah hah... ah ha ha ha ha HAH!

Not everyone has the luxury of public transport that's nearby, OP, such as those in rural areas.

Honestly, do people that come up with such ideas forget there's a world outside the city?

And how about all these "Climate Change!!" crap stop targeting common Joe to make change, when they're an absolute minor contributor compared to the Industrial (Including power plants) and Logistics sector. How about you bug them instead, eh?

c.p.w.g.w · 16-12-2019 7:20pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Neither of them are in the city?

Isn't Facebook next to the bord gais theatre

Ush1 · 16-12-2019 7:28pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Isn't Facebook next to the bord gais theatre

They moved to Ballsbridge.

Raconteuse · 17-12-2019 12:00pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Is there not a risk of increasing social isolation, though? It all sounds great but this idea of encouraging more people to spend less time around others would probably have its own set of consequences.

True. A friend of mine worked from home for a couple of years and didn't mind it but then he changed jobs to one with no work from home opportunities, and he is actually so much happier.

If it doesn't affect someone's mental well-being though, it's good to have the option imo.

17-12-2019 12:14pm

I'm in bed with the flu and working from home.

The joys of a sysadmin..

Salty · 17-12-2019 12:45pm

I recently started working from home one day a week. I've done two days this week owing to the icy roads in my locality.

I spend up to 3 hours a day commuting when I drive to work (dreaded tunnel and N40 in Cork anyone?) and I have felt a marked increase in my general health and wellbeing since cutting down on even just one day of this madness.

I have no problem getting my work done, I can understand why it wouldn't be for everyone.

We need to adopt a no-commute culture

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