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How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?
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Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away
You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?0 -
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spaceCreated wrote: »Do you just sue the same phrase over and over again? So every other health service can get by with far far far far less admins than we do.... yet we definitely can't cut any seems to be what you're saying? When did I say that the UK had too many admin staff, i think it funny that the NHS can and does manage with a fraction of admin staff than the hse does. This is a good indication of where our priorities lie https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html
Can you stick with the topic that was discussed as per the cardiac care and address those issues before brining in another bag of worms. I'd like to see you address the other arguments by me or anyone else...
I have stuck with the argument and I have addressed the points.
Others brought up the same old myths hence why I said ‘ah that old Chestnut’.
The NHS doesn’t have ‘a fraction’ of the admin staff that we have. Read the kings fund doc again and you’ll see that they are severely under represented in that area. You’ll also see how incredibly different it is to measure admin/management staff. You can say non-clinical of course but you’ll accept that there are w range of jobs needing doing - charts, filing, ict, hr etc. It’s the biggest organisation in the country by far. It’s in every facet of life from cradle to grave in every twin city and parish, employs the most people, spends the most money than any government department. Across all healthy and social care services.
You probably don’t know but the NHS does not include social care - so there’s one very good reason as to why there is less admin staff in the NHS. So keep going with the myth but it’s not true. Wards need more clerks, consultants need more clerical staff, nursing management need more clerical staff, there’s more foi staff needed, more ict staff needed, more hr staff needed.
Is there room for improvement - too right there is. Is ther me waste - to right there is. But is there too many non-clinical staff - no, just not in the right place.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?
Have I got this right. You think that Ireland needs an international airport in Belfast, one in Connaught (knock), one in Leinster and four in Munster (Shannon, Kerry, cork and Waterford).0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »You can rest assured,if it was galway...theyd work to keep airport open (indeed the kerry has one too)
And there would be no talk of downgrading hospideals or putting tolls on existing roads going there....how is that?
Where is all this talk of tolling the M9?
Do the government favour Galway airport? If they do then why is it closed? Sure they dont need one either as Shannon is so close.
Kerry is a tourist hotspot, an airport would be viable there. Unfortunately Waterford isnt as big as a draw as Kerry. That isnt the governments fault.
There is a toll on the motorway to Galway from Dublin.0 -
No I don’t work in the HG.
You can’t compare staff to bed ratios as there is a wide variety of services, expertises and clinical/non-clinical staff. Cork is the only hospital in the country with every speciality. It has always been a regional hospital. Waterford is a general hospital. They don’t have the same services.
Is there discrepancies across the country - of course there is. UHL have a quarter less docs and half the number of HSCPs pro rata when compared to Beaumont, for the same catchment area as Beaumont and quarter less the beds. But Beaumont have twice the average length of stay. I can sing you a song from every hospital in every part of the country. The answer is that we need a national response to health which means a strategic plan of what services and what staff should go where, based on a finite budget. Someone is gonna ‘lose out’ as they see it. They can ‘fight’ for local services but the HSE has to provide a national service and that is extremely challenging as I hope you would agree. Especially with competing interests, single issue agendas and political interference. All with the continuing problem that people won’t pay more for services or accept that some services will move and will be better for it.
I made comment earlier on cancer centres of excellence. Where’s all the noise now? So many lives have been saved. Does Waterford want a service back that cannot provide the same outcomes for its citizens.
I don’t know what is happening with no new urology referrals. It appears as simple as getting through the backlog. But I do know that there’s no one in a room plotting to downgrade a hospital. Can I ask - why do you think they want to downgrade the hospital? What is the nefarious reason?
The RHA will be a positive step. It’s essentially back to the Integrated Service Area of Prof Drumm era in 2008 which was abandoned because the docs wanted the hospital groupings to align with the universities. News flash - not all clinical staff are angels. Some are out for themselves.
UHW is a constituent hopsital of the group. The group is tasked with implementing the service plan as laid out by government ie gov policy. No group - or hospital - or any public service really has the control over finances and services that you think.
Sure wasn’t the group lead front and centre with Waterford colleagues, and others, on the first report on cardiac services. Doesn’t sound like an attempt to downgrade the service. Seems like your argument is gone with that point.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/top-consultants-reject-south-east-cardiac-services-report-35061854.html
Thanks for your well reasoned response.
I absolutely agreed, there should be a national plan based on facts and needs. I have a problem when there’s political interference in reports used to formulate national plans. I also have a problem with politicians changing the hospital groups in effect to dismantle Waterford as a very effective centre of excellence for cancer and cardiology among other services.
Mary Roche had enormous foresight when she emerged from the meeting on changing the hospital groups in 2011. Many of her worries have come to pass in the 8 years since: http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.com/2012/11/notes-from-wrh-meeting-tonight-11112.html?m=1
Regarding cancer treatment, Waterford was a great cancer unit, there’s a link to the hiqa report on Mary’s blog. It should have remained the centre of excellence for the region for 500,000 people.
The main difference here is that cardiac care is time critical. Patients from the southeast cannot get to an open Cath Lab within the required 90 minutes from the cardiac events. The critical mass exists in the region to support a cardiac centre in Waterford and the case is clear for it. This is why the top cardiologists rejected the report as you mentioned in your link.0 -
JimWinters wrote: »Thanks for your well reasoned response.
I absolutely agreed, there should be a national plan based on facts and needs. I have a problem when there’s political interference in reports used to formulate national plans. I also have a problem with politicians changing the hospital groups in effect to dismantle Waterford as a very effective centre of excellence for cancer and cardiology among other services.
Mary Roche had enormous foresight when she emerged from the meeting on changing the hospital groups in 2011. Many of her worries have come to pass in the 8 years since: http://cllrmaryroche.blogspot.com/2012/11/notes-from-wrh-meeting-tonight-11112.html?m=1
Regarding cancer treatment, Waterford was a great cancer unit, there’s a link to the hiqa report on Mary’s blog. It should have remained the centre of excellence for the region for 500,000 people.
The main difference here is that cardiac care is time critical. Patients from the southeast cannot get to an open Cath Lab within the required 90 minutes from the cardiac events. The critical mass exists in the region to support a cardiac centre in Waterford and the case is clear for it. This is why the top cardiologists rejected the report as you mentioned in your link.
We’ll have to wait for the DoH report which is due soon. I don’t doubt that all cath labs should be 24/7 - but that might mean making Corks bigger and having ambulance/air ambulance services to reduce time.
This is also not a ‘Waterford’ thing. This year government will have to decide where the national trauma centre will be. Everyone of the main four dublin hospitals, and probably other hospitals will lose out. Burns may leave sjh, spine may leave Mater, neurosurg may leave Beaumont. But patients will get better care of they are managed in the right place with the right service.
Dublin doesn’t need 9 EDs - it needs one.
All of this does not mean we need less beds, we don’t we need more. But we don’t need more specialities in every hospital - we need to address the specific areas in specific places - like two trauma centreA in Ireland, and the common stuff everywhere, regard and Cardioreap, and the medium stuff in a few places (cath lab, cancer services etc). All with a workforce plan for all staff - clinical and non-clinical.0 -
barneystinson wrote: »It's shocking to see someone with such a sesquipedalian way of posting (and who is so happy to lower themselves to impugning others' posting based on minor errors), display such a glaring gap in their knowledge...
You keep saying "inferiority complex" but the context you're using it in makes it pretty clear you actually mean "persecution complex"... :pac:
I'm putting it down to your superiority complex. :rolleyes:
Fantastic word!!!! I’m gonna use that. Never use a big word when a diminutive one would suffice.
Yes, I think you’re correct that I mean ‘persecution complex’ But I’ll argue that you need an inferiority complex first before you get a persecution complex.
It’s not a superiority complex - I get frustrated by all this single issue, regional focussed commentary. There is no one out to get waterford. The world is bigger than Waterford.
There just seems to be this collective inferiority complex / persecution complex among Waterford people that I find interesting but frustrating.
Mortality rates are within norms - if it better in Waterford than in other counties.
https://statbank.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp0 -
Have I got this right. You think that Ireland needs an international airport in Belfast, one in Connaught (knock), one in Leinster and four in Munster (Shannon, Kerry, cork and Waterford).
Waterford barely tallies as Munster proper it would serve the south Leinster area mainly plus east Waterford.
SNN, cork, Kerry aren’t especially viable and are always struggling. One more centrally located airport would have made sense but as usual in Munster everyone had to have their own0 -
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alta stare wrote: »An airport in Waterford is not viable hence why the idea of one never really got anywhere. It takes an hour and twenty to get from Waterford City to Dublin Airport. Less from Kilkenny and Wexford. No way an airport will ever be successful here.
No more or less than any of the others. If Waterford had a fully functional airport you’d get a lot of people south of Naas that would use it for the convenience factor and choice. That would work both ways0 -
alta stare wrote: »I cant see them ever tolling the M9. They will just tax us working people as it is far less hassle than investing in a motorway toll.
I hope not too but it would be sold as an easy “green win”, raising revenue and also Taxing “polluters”. Would also save on maintenance costs which currently come from national coffers0 -
Not as hostile as Waterford is to everyone else.
For some reason, notions of having a university in a small city, in a small country, and two cath-labs that are not required.
It’s either a massive inferiority complex or a massive superiority complex. I can’t figure it out.
Why don’t you do some research on the topics you mention and how they affect Waterford instead of making stupid posts, you’ll be able to figure it out then.0 -
Why don’t you do some research on the topics you mention and how they affect Waterford instead of making stupid posts, you’ll be able to figure it out then.
Ah, I just won’t bother to go there instead. Just like a university won’t be there, a second cath lab, and an international airport.0 -
Waterford barely tallies as Munster proper it would serve the south Leinster area mainly plus east Waterford.
SNN, cork, Kerry aren’t especially viable and are always struggling. One more centrally located airport would have made sense but as usual in Munster everyone had to have their own
Mad!!! So Waterford is now ‘barely’ in Munster. Does this affect Waterfords place in the Munster hurling championship, or just international air travel.
But you’ve confirmed - you do think that Munster needs 4 international airports. And ireland needs 7 in total.0 -
Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?
While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.
I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.
Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?
Remembering some of the things that happened in the past, some of them under Micheál Martin it is hard not to be concerned about what this government is going to do to Waterford. There was even a mention in Micheál Martin’s speech of restructuring education. Restructuring is a loaded term for Waterford when you have no minister and a Cork Taoiseach and minister for public expenditure.
On a positive note, as Varadkar is now minister for enterprise, trade and employment there may be a push to get new FDI in Waterford in an attempt to win back a FG seat in Waterford. That is how Genzyme came to Waterford. Mary Harney was trying to win a seat in Waterford for the Progressive Democrats when she was minister for enterprise, trade and employment and surprise surprise a big multinational pharma company appeared as if by magic.0 -
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Mad!!! So Waterford is now ‘barely’ in Munster. Does this affect Waterfords place in the Munster hurling championship, or just international air travel.
But you’ve confirmed - you do think that Munster needs 4 international airports. And ireland needs 7 in total.
I’m not from Waterford but yes it’s on a limb geographically. Could easily be stuck in with Leinster, no one would notice the difference. That’s the hinterland Waterford is part of.
That’s exactly what I’d didn’t say- sorry, I said cork, SNN and kerry should have all built in one central location like Mallow0 -
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No I don’t work in the HG.
You can’t compare staff to bed ratios as there is a wide variety of services, expertises and clinical/non-clinical staff. Cork is the only hospital in the country with every speciality. It has always been a regional hospital. Waterford is a general hospital. They don’t have the same services.
Is there discrepancies across the country - of course there is. UHL have a quarter less docs and half the number of HSCPs pro rata when compared to Beaumont, for the same catchment area as Beaumont and quarter less the beds. But Beaumont have twice the average length of stay. I can sing you a song from every hospital in every part of the country. The answer is that we need a national response to health which means a strategic plan of what services and what staff should go where, based on a finite budget. Someone is gonna ‘lose out’ as they see it. They can ‘fight’ for local services but the HSE has to provide a national service and that is extremely challenging as I hope you would agree. Especially with competing interests, single issue agendas and political interference. All with the continuing problem that people won’t pay more for services or accept that some services will move and will be better for it.
I made comment earlier on cancer centres of excellence. Where’s all the noise now? So many lives have been saved. Does Waterford want a service back that cannot provide the same outcomes for its citizens.
I don’t know what is happening with no new urology referrals. It appears as simple as getting through the backlog. But I do know that there’s no one in a room plotting to downgrade a hospital. Can I ask - why do you think they want to downgrade the hospital? What is the nefarious reason?
The RHA will be a positive step. It’s essentially back to the Integrated Service Area of Prof Drumm era in 2008 which was abandoned because the docs wanted the hospital groupings to align with the universities. News flash - not all clinical staff are angels. Some are out for themselves.
UHW is a constituent hopsital of the group. The group is tasked with implementing the service plan as laid out by government ie gov policy. No group - or hospital - or any public service really has the control over finances and services that you think.
Sure wasn’t the group lead front and centre with Waterford colleagues, and others, on the first report on cardiac services. Doesn’t sound like an attempt to downgrade the service. Seems like your argument is gone with that point.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/top-consultants-reject-south-east-cardiac-services-report-35061854.html
You're clearly trying to change subject/move goalposts or whatever, a lot of the campaign for cancer treatment somewhere in the southeast came before there was a motorway and it was a regular outcome that if you wanted to eba t home you ghot to make the lovely trip to one of the dublin hospitals which would take roughly 4-6 hours and then get the lovely treatment and another 4-6 hours travel home when you were able to make the trip. This of course affected outcomes but hey who cares about the suffering of those people and their families because "some people are losers".0 -
Clearly a five year old has got hold of a laptop somewhere.
I'm inclined to agree with the poster! Talk has been going on for years in regard to all of these and yet we're still talking! In another 20 years we'll still be talking about the North Quays and a bridge across the Suir!
Yes I would love an airport in Waterford with options! I would love a university for the city with all the possibilities that it could bring in improving the city financially!0 -
That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.
I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.
The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.
But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.
Clearly you have no idea about the numbers of patients requiring thrombectomy in the South East,- the refusal to build a second lab was a sop to Cork as thay had lost their North Kerry catchment to Limerick - thanks to the investment in PCI services in Limerick.
The problem for UHW and the second Cath lab is Cork , as it will not be viable.0 -
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Again, there is no ‘downgrade’ of ardkeen. It’s tin hat stuff to think that not getting an unsafe service is a downgrade.
And more inferiority complex. Not getting university status is not a personal attack on Waterford.
Loosing urology services pretty soon as well, surgeons not given theatre time so are moving on..0 -
For some reason, notions of having a university in a small city, in a small country, and two cath-labs that are not required.
It’s either a massive inferiority complex or a massive superiority complex. I can’t figure it out.
So in response to this comment. It’s not an inferiority complex when the politically disenfranchised people of Waterford have no faith in their own politicians. Our neighbours have stronger representation and have had ministerial positions to our detriment.
In some cases they have been better advocates for bigger slices of the pie for their own constituencies. On other fronts, they have proactively blocked Waterford from progressing, changed the terms of reports to suit them, ignored reports that don’t suit them and adopted plans that further their goals of stagnating Waterford. If you need examples I can provide many in terms of the Cath Lab, WIT and the boundary extension that would have made Waterford a 5 seat constituency. This last one is tantamount to gerrymandering!0 -
Our local esteemed government TD and new taoiseach
https://mobile.twitter.com/247cathlab/status/1276931244123709440/photo/10 -
No more or less than any of the others. If Waterford had a fully functional airport you’d get a lot of people south of Naas that would use it for the convenience factor and choice. That would work both ways
They wont now,that its openly speculated,the government wants to toll the M90 -
The second cath lab is in the program for government.0
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No more or less than any of the others. If Waterford had a fully functional airport you’d get a lot of people south of Naas that would use it for the convenience factor and choice. That would work both ways
There was one here and it did not work for many reasons with the price being one of them. They were too expensive to fly out from.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »They wont now,that its openly speculated,the government wants to toll the M9
Can you please show as to where you are seeing this? And which government are you referring to? Hardly this new one now sure they are only in place a few days and i doubt one of their main priorities was to toll the M9...we have worse things to be worrying about.0 -
Some load of nonsense from the usual online/social media in regards the Cath Lab. Know of several companies we deal with who have tendered for the job to construct the 2nd Cath Lab. The award of tender i think is due this week or next.
Also, i don't care if there is no Minister from the South East or the West as long most relevant/strongest people are put in the departments for what's best for the country as a whole. We need to get away from the whole geographical/gender appointment scenario.0 -
Some load of nonsense from the usual online/social media in regards the Cath Lab. Know of several companies we deal with who have tendered for the job to construct the 2nd Cath Lab. The award of tender i think is due this week or next.
Also, i don't care if there is no Minister from the South East or the West as long most relevant/strongest people are put in the departments for what's best for the country as a whole. We need to get away from the whole geographical/gender appointment scenario.
My understanding is that pre tender discussions and pre-qualification are nearing completion or have been just completed, but that actual tender to construct second cath lab has not been issued. Presumably that will happen shortly after which there will be several months discussion/delay before tender is awarded.
We might all agree in an ideal world that the best ministerial candidate should be put in place but Irish politics mixed with local influences is still not there yet.0 -
Mad!!! So Waterford is now ‘barely’ in Munster. Does this affect Waterfords place in the Munster hurling championship, or just international air travel.
But you’ve confirmed - you do think that Munster needs 4 international airports. And ireland needs 7 in total.
high road has hit upon something that probably informs the way the state, successive government thinks about investment. We're in Munster by dint of history and a line drawn on a map but geographically as part of the southeast we're clearly more Leinster than Munster. Trouble is we're at the wrong end! So the big decisions are in favour of Cork with respect to Munster/South and with greater Dublin with respect to Leinster/South. Wexford/Waterford/Kilkenny to some shared extent are told to go swing.0 -
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spaceCreated wrote: »Do you just sue the same phrase over and over again? So every other health service can get by with far far far far less admins than we do.... yet we definitely can't cut any seems to be what you're saying? When did I say that the UK had too many admin staff, i think it funny that the NHS can and does manage with a fraction of admin staff than the hse does. This is a good indication of where our priorities lie https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html
Can you stick with the topic that was discussed as per the cardiac care and address those issues before brining in another bag of worms. I'd like to see you address the other arguments by me or anyone else...
No worse then you repeating "HSE less efficient than NHS" without bothering to consider why?
Back Office tends to be relatively fixed. So Admin staff. Not all of it, but lots are like for example the HPRA which have zero relationship to the size of population - it's literally a fixed cost.
Front office tends to be variable based on demand. So "front end workers" go up and down based on demand.
Your fixed costs in the NHS are divided against 66 Million people in the UK vs nearly 5 million in Ireland. It's called economies of scale. If someone wants to propose merging the Irish System with the NHS (a bit like the RNLI) I'd be ok with discussing it. But cheap talk about the HSE having more admin just for the craic is damaging to be frank for everyone.
That also ignores for example the increasing use of non-nursing staff to let highly trained nursing staff focus on their job rather than administration.
It's cheap gutter journalism supported by a useless senator.0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0629/1150234-cabinet-first-meeting-dublin-castle/Taoiseach Micheál Martin has said a new jobs stimulus programme is likely to be ready by mid July. The initiative will involve Government departments looking at "shovel ready" projects that could create employment.
This will be a great test of the new government and will it actually support Waterford as a regional city or just write about it in its PFG. Will it just re-announce the funding already committed to for the north quays project, new mortuary or new cath lab by the last government. Or will there actually be something new. If there is not a strong financial commitment to the north quays project in light of what is in the PFG about developing regional cities, specifically naming Waterford, and the fact the north quays is shovel ready and an economic stimulus just waiting to happen. Then it will just confirm what I and many others fear that the new government is just a Dublin and Cork government.0 -
My understanding is that pre tender discussions and pre-qualification are nearing completion or have been just completed, but that actual tender to construct second cath lab has not been issued. Presumably that will happen shortly after which there will be several months discussion/delay before tender is awarded.
We might all agree in an ideal world that the best ministerial candidate should be put in place but Irish politics mixed with local influences is still not there yet.
Pre tender discussions and pre-qualification have being completed with all parties. The full tender has also being submitted to the qualified candidates including full BQ and specifications and returned. 2 Contractors i've spoken to are keen and awaiting a decision within the next few weeks.0 -
It's likely that any Government committment to funding the bridge and relocation of the station is purely down to a significant commitment from the developers to commence construction. The question will be asked why construction has not commenced, tenders issued, detailed design completed, etc, etc. They will not be interested in listening to waffle or grand statements. There will need to be some significant indication that the North Quays proposal is viable and the developers are committed to proceeding.https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0629/1150234-cabinet-first-meeting-dublin-castle/
This will be a great test of the new government and will it actually support Waterford as a regional city or just write about it in its PFG. Will it just re-announce the funding already committed to for the north quays project, new mortuary or new cath lab by the last government. Or will there actually be something new. If there is not a strong financial commitment to the north quays project in light of what is in the PFG about developing regional cities, specifically naming Waterford, and the fact the north quays is shovel ready and an economic stimulus just waiting to happen. Then it will just confirm what I and many others fear that the new government is just a Dublin and Cork government.
Realistically is the retail scheme viable? Are the apartments viable? Are offices viable going forward? New retail and office developments internationally and nationally are currently not proceeding and I can't see how the North Quays is any different. Generally no apartment scheme proceeds until they are purchased by a REIT.
Why would you invest in a bridge first if the development it purports to facilitate is not going ahead or is financially viable?0 -
It's likely that any Government committment to funding the bridge and relocation of the station is purely down to a significant commitment from the developers to commence construction. The question will be asked why construction has not commenced, tenders issued, detailed design completed, etc, etc. They will not be interested in listening to waffle or grand statements. There will need to be some significant indication that the North Quays proposal is viable and the developers are committed to proceeding.
Realistically is the retail scheme viable? Are the apartments viable? Are offices viable going forward? New retail and office developments internationally and nationally are currently not proceeding and I can't see how the North Quays is any different. Generally no apartment scheme proceeds until they are purchased by a REIT.
Why would you invest in a bridge first if the development it purports to facilitate is not going ahead or is financially viable?
The train station is a dangerous disaster as is.the pedestrian bridge will reduce vehicles need to block up the south quays, it increases attractiveness of taking the train too, it also connects with the new train station location and 2 greenways. Questioning the validity of a pedestrian bridge pretty much anywhere but especially at the north quays location shows how little you know about the site.0 -
Waterford barely tallies as Munster proper it would serve the south Leinster area mainly plus east Waterford.
SNN, cork, Kerry aren’t especially viable and are always struggling. One more centrally located airport would have made sense but as usual in Munster everyone had to have their own
Interesting that you make the point about a centrally located Airport, do you think any consideration was given to the location of Waterford Airport in the context of it being a regional airport for the South East?
As an outsider looking in, I hear Waterford people declare it the capital of the South East but I don't see anything that demonstrates much consideration of the needs of the region when planning infrastructure apart from counting the population of the south east when demanding something for Waterford. I certainly don't get the impression that people in Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny or South Tipp look at Waterford as their regional capital.
Taking the Airport as an example, it couldn't have been situated in a more inaccessible place in Waterford when it comes to access from the rest of the south east region. Access has been improved with the new Suir Bridge and ring road but in reality, the airport was dead before that opened. Had it been somewhere around Granny, it may have drawn in more passengers from the region but the local Waterford / Kilkenny politics could never have let that happen.
All that said, I like Waterford and have family there. As a city, its core is probably bigger than Galway without even taking into consideration the North Quays, it has huge potential to regenerate and grow where as there's little room in Galway for anything other than suburbs.0 -
I know the site very well and fair enough with those points but the reasoning and economic justification up to this point has been that it will facilitate a very significant private sector investment.Max Powers wrote: »The train station is a dangerous disaster as is.the pedestrian bridge will reduce vehicles need to block up the south quays, it increases attractiveness of taking the train too, it also connects with the new train station location and 2 greenways. Questioning the validity of a pedestrian bridge pretty much anywhere but especially at the north quays location shows how little you know about the site.
If they can stand on their own merits so be it but if the North Quays does not go ahead it will have little to do with the bridge or the train station.0 -
It's likely that any Government committment to funding the bridge and relocation of the station is purely down to a significant commitment from the developers to commence construction. The question will be asked why construction has not commenced, tenders issued, detailed design completed, etc, etc. They will not be interested in listening to waffle or grand statements. There will need to be some significant indication that the North Quays proposal is viable and the developers are committed to proceeding.
Realistically is the retail scheme viable? Are the apartments viable? Are offices viable going forward? New retail and office developments internationally and nationally are currently not proceeding and I can't see how the North Quays is any different. Generally no apartment scheme proceeds until they are purchased by a REIT.
Why would you invest in a bridge first if the development it purports to facilitate is not going ahead or is financially viable?
This clearly shows you know nothing about the north quays project. The government funding committed so far is for infrastructural works like the pedestrian bridge etc. It is not dependent on any developer or commitment. It is to facilitate the development of the north quays, it is separate to any development. I have heard Michael Walsh say this a number of times. Also, the train station is long sense unfit for purpose and really not related to the north quays project, it needs to be done anyway. If the government is not going to fund infrastructural improvements to allow for private developments now or in the future if the current plan does not work out for some reason then what the hell is the point of national government and paying tax at all!
Construction has not commenced because they have not gotten the final planning permission yet, it is due in mid July. Detailed design was completed last year. Some tenders have been issued and work started if you care to look at the site. There has been significant work done on the viability of the project.
On the global economic terms it is not clear what will happen, it depends on how the pandemic pans out. With that said it is not the end of the world economy, things will recover. Also, I don’t buy this thing of there will be a greatly reduced need for office space as people have gotten a taste for home working. The vast majority of people would rather be out of the house.0 -
alias no.9 wrote: »Interesting that you make the point about a centrally located Airport, do you think any consideration was given to the location of Waterford Airport in the context of it being a regional airport for the South East?
As an outsider looking in, I hear Waterford people declare it the capital of the South East but I don't see anything that demonstrates much consideration of the needs of the region when planning infrastructure apart from counting the population of the south east when demanding something for Waterford. I certainly don't get the impression that people in Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny or South Tipp look at Waterford as their regional capital.
Taking the Airport as an example, it couldn't have been situated in a more inaccessible place in Waterford when it comes to access from the rest of the south east region. Access has been improved with the new Suir Bridge and ring road but in reality, the airport was dead before that opened. Had it been somewhere around Granny, it may have drawn in more passengers from the region but the local Waterford / Kilkenny politics could never have let that happen.
All that said, I like Waterford and have family there. As a city, its core is probably bigger than Galway without even taking into consideration the North Quays, it has huge potential to regenerate and grow where as there's little room in Galway for anything other than suburbs.
I've a similar view really. It makes me think of the arrangement of leagues in sport. Ask any team what the fairest, most logical league format is and they'll always give an answer that by sheer chance has the top league expanded down far enough to include them, but not include any teams below them.
Similarly a lot of people reckon centralising things in Dublin is wrong, and everything should be regionalised and subdivided into a more local level. Nothing objectively wrong with that, but it seems the drive for regionalising stops once it reaches their level, and they feel everything in a given region should be focused on one city.
I spend a lot of time in Wexford, and while obviously there's a connection from proximity to Waterford, I certainly don't get the same impression you see presented in this forum that Waterford is their regional capital and the focal point of their economy, education, transport etc. I've certainly never heard anyone say "Waterford should get X or Y as that would benefit us".
Now don't take that to mean I'm arguing against investment in Waterford or arguing that Waterford should or shouldn't get X Y or Z. My argument is simply that it's not right to use the entire populations of Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny and South Tipperary as justification for building things in Waterford city.0 -
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No worse then you repeating "HSE less efficient than NHS" without bothering to consider why?
Back Office tends to be relatively fixed. So Admin staff. Not all of it, but lots are like for example the HPRA which have zero relationship to the size of population - it's literally a fixed cost.
Front office tends to be variable based on demand. So "front end workers" go up and down based on demand.
Your fixed costs in the NHS are divided against 66 Million people in the UK vs nearly 5 million in Ireland. It's called economies of scale. If someone wants to propose merging the Irish System with the NHS (a bit like the RNLI) I'd be ok with discussing it. But cheap talk about the HSE having more admin just for the craic is damaging to be frank for everyone.
That also ignores for example the increasing use of non-nursing staff to let highly trained nursing staff focus on their job rather than administration.
It's cheap gutter journalism supported by a useless senator.
Only in ireland would we make sure we definitely have enough admin staff doing very little when we have a massive shortage of nurses, doctors, beds and facilities. Yes the staff costs are too high for Ireland and I understand basic leaving cert business. No I'm not having the craic, a genuine discussion needs to be had to whether we place higher emphasis on recruiting doctors and nurses or admin staff with the funding we give health. Also I've never heard of public staff numbers going down due to cuts.0 -
alias no.9 wrote: »Interesting that you make the point about a centrally located Airport, do you think any consideration was given to the location of Waterford Airport in the context of it being a regional airport for the South East?
As an outsider looking in, I hear Waterford people declare it the capital of the South East but I don't see anything that demonstrates much consideration of the needs of the region when planning infrastructure apart from counting the population of the south east when demanding something for Waterford. I certainly don't get the impression that people in Wexford, Carlow, Kilkenny or South Tipp look at Waterford as their regional capital.
Taking the Airport as an example, it couldn't have been situated in a more inaccessible place in Waterford when it comes to access from the rest of the south east region. Access has been improved with the new Suir Bridge and ring road but in reality, the airport was dead before that opened. Had it been somewhere around Granny, it may have drawn in more passengers from the region but the local Waterford / Kilkenny politics could never have let that happen.
All that said, I like Waterford and have family there. As a city, its core is probably bigger than Galway without even taking into consideration the North Quays, it has huge potential to regenerate and grow where as there's little room in Galway for anything other than suburbs.
You're definitely right about people not seeing it as a regional capital which is very damaging for the region. I know a lot of kilkenny, wexford and tipp. people who have goine to the Wit and stayed. Pretty much everyone I know who went to the wit and work in waterford wouldn't be staying in the south east unless the wit had been there. I also know quite a few people who went to uni outside of the region and are never going to come back.
Theres a massive brain drain going on and part of developing the region is to make sure there is a third level education facility that can improve the region economically so it does become somewhere people will stay. The south east as a region is caught in a vicous circle where a lot of businesses will not locate here because there aren't enough graduates or existing employees to recruit.
I'd be surprised that there would be any business firms like state street or bny or tech firms like redhat, or even vhi located in the south east if wit wasn't here. We are missing massive opportunities for companies to locate not just here because they're looking at Ireland, but it might draw in some companies that think dublin, cork, limerick and galway are far too expensive for office space.
Genuinely I think the opportunity for Waterford as well as Kilkenny and Wexford to grow are going to be wasted, the brain drain will likely continue and it will eventually become a region that becomes a burden on the rest of Ireland. A relatively small investment now in third level education would likely offer massive benefits for both the region and country as a whole by eliminating the future burden.0 -
Have to agree with the previous poster about the airport. It is in the wrong location and somewhere like slieverue or kilmacow would make it more attractive to sell as an airport for the south east.
However of all the issues facing the south east (north Quays, 24/7 cardiac care, University status) I think the airport issue is of the least importance.
For me the university issue is most important. A University in WIT (not this stupid Technical University nonsense) will help attract companies to not only Waterford but also Wexford, Clonmel and Kilkenny. This can help decrease the south east regions unemployment rate of 6.9%, the highest by far of any region in the country and stop the brain drain from the south east to Dublin and Cork.0 -
The late Nicky fewer told me that Kilmacow was actively considered but was rejected because of Tory Hill, so I would not be going into political flights (excuse me) of fancy or conspiracy theories..
As one poster has already said, access to the airport is very easy now, but this is 35 years after Ryanair started there. I understand that the current plans for the airport were based on aircraft maintenance and charter business? Anyone who follows Waterford Aviation page on FB can see that the airport is used extensively by private planes large and small. Its a vital regional resource in that respect alone and the runway deserves to be extended, for very small money, on that basis.0 -
I know the site very well and fair enough with those points but the reasoning and economic justification up to this point has been that it will facilitate a very significant private sector investment.
If they can stand on their own merits so be it but if the North Quays does not go ahead it will have little to do with the bridge or the train station.
the bridge and train station has everything to do with the site and the private investment, you wouldn't build there unless there was decent access, in order for decent access to be in place, a pedestrian bridge is needed.0 -
spaceCreated wrote: »Only in ireland would we make sure we definitely have enough admin staff doing very little when we have a massive shortage of nurses, doctors, beds and facilities. Yes the staff costs are too high for Ireland and I understand basic leaving cert business. No I'm not having the craic, a genuine discussion needs to be had to whether we place higher emphasis on recruiting doctors and nurses or admin staff with the funding we give health. Also I've never heard of public staff numbers going down due to cuts.
That's a meaningless sentence. And you ain't starting a genuine discussion when you come out with bald statements completely out of context. I note you didn't engage on why NHS might spend less on administration as a proportion. If we are going to play silly stats I can confidently say Ireland spends a lot less than the NHS on admin in real numbers.0 -
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The point was only that commercial viability for the North Quays in relation to the retail element, offices and residential is likely to be severely tested over the next number of years and Government decisions will have little impact on that. So even if the bridge and station are moved which by all accounts they need to anyway it may not matter at all to the viability of the development.Max Powers wrote: »the bridge and train station has everything to do with the site and the private investment, you wouldn't build there unless there was decent access, in order for decent access to be in place, a pedestrian bridge is needed.0 -
The point was only that commercial viability for the North Quays in relation to the retail element, offices and residential is likely to be severely tested over the next number of years and Government decisions will have little impact on that. So even if the bridge and station are moved which by all accounts they need to anyway it may not matter at all to the viability of the development.
there is plenty demand for residential, that has been covered extensively over the last few years and covid will not affect the need for housing. retail and office might be temporarily down but will return, the investors were confident, there is already well published locally interest in offices there. The investors have retail investments worldwide so they know what they are at on that front. The hotel apparently has an occupier too. Honestly rebs, you started of by questioning the need for pedestrian bridge and train station move, I don't think you know enough about the site, the investors, Waterford, the whole background of the site, what is planned and what has happened so far to be commenting in an informed manner.0 -
That has been the problem in Ireland for the last number of years plenty of demand for residential but it is simply not commercially viable to construct. Look I won't comment on the rest and I wish the developers all the best and let's hope the Council get the funding for the bridges and I never intended to question the need for the bridge only to state that it won't be the Governments fault if this development doesn't go ahead in a thread with the title "How hostile will the new government be for Waterford" . It is a very difficult commercial investment environment at the moment. In most places in Ireland now we have significant amounts of vacant offices, retail units and centers and hotels that are not re-opening and other hotel projects that are mothballed.Max Powers wrote: »there is plenty demand for residential, that has been covered extensively over the last few years and covid will not affect the need for housing. retail and office might be temporarily down but will return, the investors were confident, there is already well published locally interest in offices there. The investors have retail investments worldwide so they know what they are at on that front. The hotel apparently has an occupier too. Honestly rebs, you started of by questioning the need for pedestrian bridge and train station move, I don't think you know enough about the site, the investors, Waterford, the whole background of the site, what is planned and what has happened so far to be commenting in an informed manner.0 -
That has been the problem in Ireland for the last number of years plenty of demand for residential but it is simply not commercially viable to construct. Look I won't comment on the rest and I wish the developers all the best and let's hope the Council get the funding for the bridges and I never intended to question the need for the bridge only to state that it won't be the Governments fault if this development doesn't go ahead in a thread with the title "How hostile will the new government be for Waterford" . It is a very difficult commercial investment environment at the moment. In most places in Ireland now we have significant amounts of vacant offices, retail units and centers and hotels that are not re-opening and other hotel projects that are mothballed.
Agree, it has gotten a more difficult environment, Waterford is looking for the government to step up with money for bridge and train station , both needed and justified. The government can provide these badly needed things (no one else can) and kick start something bigger to boot.0 -
Max Powers wrote:Agree, it has gotten a more difficult environment, Waterford is looking for the government to step up with money for bridge and train station , both needed and justified. The government can provide these badly needed things (no one else can) and kick start something bigger to boot.
Hopefully they stick to their current plan of borrowing to kick start things, and throw a few quid our way0 -
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