School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

Rosita · 06-08-2020 11:48pm

treade1 wrote: »

What's the solution.

The solution was to impose severe lockdown, make the airport a rigorously secure environment with actual proper followed up quarantining, properly secure nursing homes, have a pervasive and rigorous testing and tracing regime, and get to zero cases.

The timing was bad for Ireland as a sh*t government at the end of its time could not believe that they could suddenly just stand in front of a microphone with a pre-prepared speech reading out what the Doctors had told them and they were regarded as doing a great job. This created a lack of focus and a failure to really press on with too much self-congratulation too quickly.

It is probably too late for that solution now and we'll have to live with the consequences of constant outbreaks for years.

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 12:25pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

I reckon we will be back fow a few weeks and then it will all change again.
The mandatory wearing of masks might help those figures in a week or two but the way we are going does not really inspire confidence.

The problem with so many asymptomatic is spreaders are spreading without any knowledge of it. Masks will be here to stay for a long time unfortunately.

Do you really think so ? I hope though plans are being put in place for proper online learning. Though sometimes with kids you can give them access to a laptop and they won't collect it or have access and won't use it. I don't think the constant bleating of the media about student stress helps either.

ShamoBuc · 07-08-2020 12:36pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Do you really think so ? I hope though plans are being put in place for proper online learning. Though sometimes with kids you can give them access to a laptop and they won't collect it or have access and won't use it. I don't think the constant bleating of the media about student stress helps either.

I really do.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0807/1157805-coronavirus-global/

They were the first of the 16 German districts to go back. It doesn't bode well.

The numbers today could well be a wake up call. Added to the situation in the Midlands and what is going to happen there.
What the r rate will be in 2 or 2 weeks time will be very interesting.

combat14 · 07-08-2020 12:43pm

hard to see midlands schools opening if lockdown introduced..

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 12:58pm

Rosita wrote: »

The solution was to impose severe lockdown, make the airport a rigorously secure environment with actual proper followed up quarantining, properly secure nursing homes, have a pervasive and rigorous testing and tracing regime, and get to zero cases.

The timing was bad for Ireland as a sh*t government at the end of its time could not believe that they could suddenly just stand in front of a microphone with a pre-prepared speech reading out what the Doctors had told them and they were regarded as doing a great job. This created a lack of focus and a failure to really press on with too much self-congratulation too quickly.

It is probably too late for that solution now and we'll have to live with the consequences of constant outbreaks for years.

I think you might be a bit alarmist. Hopefully a vaccine will be in place in about six months.I think the government in March does deserve some credit for following advice at the time . Look at what happened in the UK.
However I agree fully with you on airports. What is the point of having a green list when you can fly outside it?
However the airlines need financial support. About 1500 jobs with 1500 families are now on the line for aer lingus.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 1:07pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think you might be a bit alarmist. Hopefully a vaccine will be in place in about six months.I think the government in March does deserve some credit for following advice at the time . Look at what happened in the UK.
However I agree fully with you on airports. What is the point of having a green list when you can fly outside it?
However the airlines need financial support. About 1500 jobs with 1500 families are now on the line for aer lingus.

Private companies that didn't give a toss when the times were good, happy to rip off their customers. I'd much rather see the governments money invested in public infrastructure, education, housing and health. It's not a bottomless pit. Hopefully Irish people now see how under funded education is in this country and the issue with large class sizes.

Leftwaffe · 07-08-2020 1:07pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think you might be a bit alarmist. Hopefully a vaccine will be in place in about six months.I think the government in March does deserve some credit for following advice at the time . Look at what happened in the UK.
However I agree fully with you on airports. What is the point of having a green list when you can fly outside it?
However the airlines need financial support. About 1500 jobs with 1500 families are now on the line for aer lingus.

Yeah Aer Lingus is about to kick the bucket altogether. A vaccine will be along but from all the stuff I’ve read and listened to, it doesn’t necessarily mean the end of this at all. At least quickly. Going a bit off topic but how long the antibody response from these vaccines are remain to be seen. There’s talk to booster shots, etc.

Anyway, I starting to think a zero Covid island should have been the objective from a long time back. When cases were so low weeks ago, a short sharp 2/3 week lockdown with effective quarantines at ports and airports, it was easily achievable and still is. In relation to schools, this is a sign of what is to come:

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0807/1157805-coronavirus-global/

The virus doesn’t care about borders, it doesn’t take the weekend off, 9 euro meals don’t deter it and not wearing face mask Will help it spread. Schools will be no different.

Loafing Oaf · 07-08-2020 1:13pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Anyway, I starting to think a zero Covid island should have been the objective from a long time back. When cases were so low weeks ago, a short sharp 2/3 week lockdown with effective quarantines at ports and airports, it was easily achievable and still is.

How do we deal with our open back door in the North though?

KrustyBurger · 07-08-2020 1:37pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

How do we deal with our open back door in the North though?

Therein lies the rub. If we were able to adopt an all island approach with a short sharp shock approach, no flights in, mandatory quarantine etc we could have the whole island up and running. Won't happen obviously.

Rosita · 07-08-2020 3:08pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think you might be a bit alarmist. Hopefully a vaccine will be in place in about six months.I think the government in March does deserve some credit for following advice at the time . Look at what happened in the UK.
However I agree fully with you on airports. What is the point of having a green list when you can fly outside it?
However the airlines need financial support. About 1500 jobs with 1500 families are now on the line for aer lingus.

Not alarmist at all. Simply stating that yeah the government followed advice (how much credit do they need for that?!) but failed to act in areas which required real decision making. They failed to get a proper efficient and quick contact tracing and testing regime in place and the airports were utterly porous throughout. Italian rugby supporters allowed in just when it was kicking off. People still flying to Belfast from infected areas and being bussed to Kerry in July/August. Mad stuff. That's a simple statement of fact and not remotely alarmist.

Rosita · 07-08-2020 3:12pm

[quote="Redordeadqwwer;114243674

Anyway, I starting to think a zero Covid island should have been the objective from a long time back. When cases were so low weeks ago, a short sharp 2/3 week lockdown with effective quarantines at ports and airports, it was easily achievable and still is.[/quote]

It was achievable but unfortunately the need to open the schools now means a sharp lockdown won't happen. There was s real chance in recent times though.

am_zarathustra · 07-08-2020 3:15pm

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Yeah Aer Lingus is about to kick the bucket altogether. A vaccine will be along but from all the stuff I’ve read and listened to, it doesn’t necessarily mean the end of this at all. At least quickly. Going a bit off topic but how long the antibody response from these vaccines are remain to be seen. There’s talk to booster shots, etc.

Anyway, I starting to think a zero Covid island should have been the objective from a long time back. When cases were so low weeks ago, a short sharp 2/3 week lockdown with effective quarantines at ports and airports, it was easily achievable and still is. In relation to schools, this is a sign of what is to come:

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0807/1157805-coronavirus-global/

The virus doesn’t care about borders, it doesn’t take the weekend off, 9 euro meals don’t deter it and not wearing face mask Will help it spread. Schools will be no different.

It's not a type of vaccine we've ever successfully managed to bring to market before. In theory its much safer but in trials before coronavirus there were serious issues with memory t cells and long term antibody response. There are companies working on live attenuated and other more traditional vaccines too but the Moderna vaccine is the most progressed currently. I'd be optimistic in saying that maybe healthcare workers will have access to a vaccine withing 12 months, all going well but the general public is more likely to be 18 months even with scaling up of manufacturing.

I suppose it's about managing expectations too, it's a proof reading virus so, all things being equal with similar viruses, we should have a vaccine but the shorter term candidates are still very experimental so it might be anywhere from 18months to 3/4 years depending

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 3:53pm

You can say every company made it good while times were good. Airlines a pretty competitive business. I would not be dismissive of any job losses from the perch of the public sector. These are real people with families. Same for a lot of other companies.
That doesn't mean I'm against a total ban on flights from affected areas and it should be All Ireland.
As to Italy rugby fans. That's the past. Can't undo that.
I wouldn't fuss over FG poll ratings. No election due plus we have a tough winter ahead off us.
Housing and health will be bad as ever come January.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 6:17pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

You can say every company made it good while times were good. Airlines a pretty competitive business. I would not be dismissive of any job losses from the perch of the public sector. These are real people with families. Same for a lot of other companies.
That doesn't mean I'm against a total ban on flights from affected areas and it should be All Ireland.
As to Italy rugby fans. That's the past. Can't undo that.
I wouldn't fuss over FG poll ratings. No election due plus we have a tough winter ahead off us.
Housing and health will be bad as ever come January.

I don't wish job losses on any individual but they were privatised. We don't bail out poor people so I don't see why we should bail out rich companies. IAG had profits of around 3 billion last year and want a hand out from the Irish government. Do me a favour....

If AL go under, then they go under. They've had years to sort out their business model.

Mardy Bum · 07-08-2020 6:28pm

bren2001 wrote: »

I don't wish job losses on any individual but they were privatised. We don't bail out poor people so I don't see why we should bail out rich companies. IAG had profits of around 3 billion last year and want a hand out from the Irish government. Do me a favour....

If AL go under, then they go under. They've had years to sort out their business model.

Ironically, these failed CEOs are more influential in directing education policy than actual teachers.

deiseindublin · 07-08-2020 6:33pm

in typical DES fashion, Friday evening, 6pm..............
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0049_2020.pdf

mirrorwall14 · 07-08-2020 7:28pm

For any non-COVID-19 illness, following the necessary period of self-isolation, the terms and conditions of the Sick Leave Scheme apply.

So am I right to read that as the initial period until the test is not sick leave officially but if it’s negative and you are still off it is? So if you have a symptom, come off work and wait for test but it’s negative and you immediately return there is no impact on your sick leave?

deiseindublin · 07-08-2020 8:06pm

That's my reading of it.

Blondini · 07-08-2020 8:08pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

in typical DES fashion, Friday evening, 6pm..............
https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0049_2020.pdf

Very high risk/cocooning staff catered for but just 'high risk' staff have no special provision effectively.

Harsh enough.

deiseindublin · 07-08-2020 8:29pm

Am I correct in thinking that for third level, high risk staff were catered for?

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 8:38pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that for third level, high risk staff were catered for?

Well, they can work from home if possible but if not then just "take extra care basically.

Staff who fall into the ‘very high risk’ group should follow the public health advice on cocooning while staff who fall into the ‘high risk’ group should work from home. If working from home is not possible, such staff must take extra care in the workplace to adhere to physical distancing requirements and hand hygiene.

cwboy · 07-08-2020 9:08pm

Any idea on the most comfortable face shield/visor for all day use in school?

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 9:24pm

What happens if you just have a cold and would normally go to work with that ?
What happens when you are told to self isolate because you were in contact with someone who has it? Does that count towards sick leave??

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:31pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

What happens if you just have a cold and would normally go to work with that ?
What happens when you are told to self isolate because you were in contact with someone who has it? Does that count towards sick leave??

Well you need to isolate with cold symptoms and get tested. So that will be under this special leave. I suppose if you test negative then you can go back to work if symptoms are mild.

If you are told to isolate as a close contact pending testing, then it is the special leave too.

Icyseanfitz · 07-08-2020 9:33pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

Well you need to isolate with cold symptoms and get tested. So that will be under this special leave. I suppose if you test negative then you can go back to work if symptoms are mild.

If you are told to isolate as a close contact pending testing, then it is the special leave too.

i can imagine some of the students i work with would be quite anxious and upset if i was around them coughing or with a cold, even if i got the all clear. Its going to be though going this year

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 9:37pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

Well you need to isolate with cold symptoms and get tested. So that will be under this special leave. I suppose if you test negative then you can go back to work if symptoms are mild.

If you are told to isolate as a close contact pending testing, then it is the special leave too.

But after all that - you test negative what happens to the days you were out ?

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 9:38pm

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

i can imagine some of the students i work with would be quite anxious and upset if i was around them coughing or with a cold, even if i got the all clear. Its going to be though going this year

That's what your normal sick leave is for. You shouldn't be in work if you're sick.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:38pm

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

i can imagine some of the students i work with would be quite anxious and upset if i was around them coughing or with a cold, even if i got the all clear. Its going to be though going this year

Yes, it would feel weird, and I could understand the paranoia. I think I would be a bit paranoid myself. But at that stage it would be subject to the normal sick leave provisions, and most people wouldn't be able to use up self certified leave on a mild cold, and may not even have any of that leave left to use. And I can't see a doctor signing off someone for a cold with a negative Covid test.

khalessi · 07-08-2020 9:38pm

cwboy wrote: »

Any idea on the most comfortable face shield/visor for all day use in school?

I got 2 of these comfortable enough but face visors are not enough on their own as they can still let in droplets.

https://www.paperassist.ie/protective-face-shields/most-popular-pa-protective-face-shields/

Postgrad10 · 07-08-2020 9:40pm

Visor and face covering needed.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:40pm

bren2001 wrote: »

That's what your normal sick leave is for. You shouldn't be in work if you're sick.

No gp will sign you off for a mild cold. HSE advice (pre Covid) is that it's fine to go to work or school with a cold.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 9:42pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

No gp will sign you off for a mild cold. HSE advice (pre Covid) is that it's fine to go to work or school with a cold.

If you're coughing and sneezing, any doctor will sign you off. Mine certainly would have no issue.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:44pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

But after all that - you test negative what happens to the days you were out ?

If you were out awaiting a test then it's still the special leave even if the test is subsequently negative.

Rosita · 07-08-2020 9:45pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

No gp will sign you off for a mild cold. HSE advice (pre Covid) is that it's fine to go to work or school with a cold.

They'd have to establish it was a mild cold first. Bear in mind that many of the cases in Kildare in the last day or two were asymptomatic. Not sure doctors will be encouraged to take chances.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:45pm

bren2001 wrote: »

If you're coughing and sneezing, any doctor will sign you off. Mine certainly would have no issue.

Certainly not in my experience.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:46pm

Rosita wrote: »

They'd have to establish it was a mild cold first. Bear in mind that many of the cases in Kildare in the last day or two were asymptomatic. Not sure doctors will be encouraged to take chances.

We're talking about after a negative test.

Absolutely no chances should be taken with any sort of symptoms before testing.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 9:49pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

Certainly not in my experience.

I'd go looking for a new GP then. If your sick, your GP should be giving you a cert.

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

We're talking about after a negative test.

Absolutely no chances should be taken with any sort of symptoms before testing.

Its a bit of a moot point, by the time you get your test and results, the worst of the cold should be over and you'd be back in work.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 9:51pm

bren2001 wrote: »

I'd go looking for a new GP then. If your sick, your GP should be giving you a cert.

Its a bit of a moot point, by the time you get your test and results, the worst of the cold should be over and you'd be back in work.

I would disagree that a good gp should sign you off for a mild cold. I don't think I would respect my gp if he did tbh.

Yes, worst of the cold should be gone by the test result. Nobody said otherwise - we were talking about still having mild symptoms.

wirelessdude01 · 07-08-2020 9:54pm

Personally think that all school staff should be tested once a week. Asymptomatic is a huge issue. Would go a lot of the way to providing some semblance of assurance to everyone.

deiseindublin · 07-08-2020 9:55pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

What happens if you just have a cold and would normally go to work with that ?
What happens when you are told to self isolate because you were in contact with someone who has it? Does that count towards sick leave??

I'd say it's up to the doctor to sign the forms at end of circular.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 9:56pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

I would disagree that a good gp should sign you off for a mild cold. I don't think I would respect my gp if he did tbh.

Yes, worst of the cold should be gone by the test result. Nobody said otherwise - we were talking about still having mild symptoms.

Any self respecting GP should sign you off if you're still infectious. You can make other people sick and hence are not fit for work. Your sick and should be given time to recover.

I think any other mentality is crazy and that I'm probably in the minority. Sick people should not be in work until they are recovered.

km79 · 07-08-2020 9:57pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

What happens if you just have a cold and would normally go to work with that ?

There is probably a lesson in this for everyone

deiseindublin · 07-08-2020 10:00pm

bren2001 wrote: »

If you're coughing and sneezing, any doctor will sign you off. Mine certainly would have no issue.

My Doc wouldn't tbh, very slow to give a cert, and that is speaking as someone who has looked for one twice in 20 years. Said yes once and other time he told me that his professional opinion was that I was fit to work (wiht tonsillitis and no voice.....).

khalessi · 07-08-2020 10:02pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

My Doc wouldn't tbh, very slow to give a cert, and that is speaking as someone who has looked for one twice in 20 years. Said yes once and other time he told me that his professional opinion was that I was fit to work (wiht tonsillitis and no voice.....).

Was reading an article today I think in Independent where gps said they would be too busy and overrun that we should go to Medmark.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-08-2020 10:03pm

bren2001 wrote: »

Any self respecting GP should sign you off if you're still infectious. You can make other people sick and hence are not fit for work. Your sick and should be given time to recover.

I think any other mentality is crazy and that I'm probably in the minority. Sick people should not be in work until they are recovered.

A lot of people would be off for months at a time then, with illnesses that HSE advise it's fine to go to work with (obviously not without Covid test in current times) and explicitly state no need to see a gp. There are many people who suffer sneezing and coughing symptoms on an ongoing or very frequent basis for a variety of reasons.

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 10:04pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

My Doc wouldn't tbh, very slow to give a cert, and that is speaking as someone who has looked for one twice in 20 years. Said yes once and other time he told me that his professional opinion was that I was fit to work (wiht tonsillitis and no voice.....).

That's crazy. I'd find a new GP. They are a service I pay for. I expect them to look after my health and if they are not signing me off work, then they are not providing the service I want.

Just to be very clear, I've never got a cert but my family have quite easily. I worked from home with COVID at the very start. I'm not one who takes time off lightly.

amacca · 07-08-2020 10:05pm

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Visor and face covering needed.

is it official the visor is required along with a facemask or is the above just your opinion of what should be required?

bren2001 · 07-08-2020 10:08pm

Simeon Mysterious Minibike wrote: »

A lot of people would be off for months at a time then, with illnesses that HSE advise it's fine to go to work with (obviously not without Covid test in current times) and explicitly state no need to see a gp. There are many people who suffer sneezing and coughing symptoms on an ongoing or very frequent basis for a variety of reasons.

Not all sneezes and coughs warrant being off work. However, I have no issue with people who are sick not being forced to work. There is a distinct difference between someone with long term issues and someone with a cold.

Bobtheman · 07-08-2020 10:14pm

km79 wrote: »

There is probably a lesson in this for everyone

What do you mean? Don't go ?

km79 · 07-08-2020 10:25pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

What do you mean? Don't go ?

That many of us have gone to work sick too often (even before the prohibitive sick leave changes ) . I was certainly guilty of this on too many occasions.
This lead to others becoming sick etc etc

There is a lesson for everyone in this . If those who are genuinely sick stayed at home (and were not penalized for doing so ) it would probably reduce the overall sick leave bill
But there are those that will abuse it I guess and this is part of the problem

School reopenings -current plan WAS McHugh's plan

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