Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

El Tarangu · 01-08-2020 11:08pm

Tiger20 wrote: »

...I say **** you to the authorities. Best of luck to the Murrays

I'm sure you are a nice person, but this, in a nutshell, is everything that's wrong with Ireland.

ruwithme · 01-08-2020 11:22pm

Jayus lads, would be a great shame to knock her all the same. not to mention the "wilful act brings a woeful want"

could they not move her up the road to cavan?for a few £££s we'd let them keep her upright.

Seth Brundle · 01-08-2020 11:56pm

ruwithme wrote: »

Jayus lads, would be a great shame to knock her all the same.

It's absolutely rotten looking. Far too many of those tasteless "mansions" around the country that should never have been allowed have the sod turned on them.

Tiger20 · 01-08-2020 11:56pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

I'm sure you are a nice person, but this, in a nutshell, is everything that's wrong with Ireland.

I agree wholeheartedly.....unfortunately IMO the authorities do no deserve respect. For instance, you pay property tax, but can anyone tell me what you get for that? Absolutely nothing that was not provided before. In other countries, like UK, Belguim, Spain, your bins, street cleaning, school books etc are included , but not here. When we tried to introduce the one tax that you got what you paid for, (water charge) we as a nation refuse to pay it. Use 500 litres of water, pay for 500 litres of water. Your neighbor's use 1000 litres of water, they pay for 1000 litres. Another example is the NCT, where your vehicle must meet very specific criteria re its condition, but leave the test centre and the roads you drive on do not meet any criteria or standard. Are you telling me that an N classified road is of the same standard ? You can go from a dual carriageway to a single lane to a narrow twisty road along the same road. Drive from Cork city to Bantry sometime, and believe me you would not find worse roads in third world countries. TBH, I find your post a bit condescending, that what's wrong with Ireland is people who no longer want to accept the bull**** we put up with. Imagine our revolutionary heroes that we celebrate had that attitude, that we must accept what the authorities say, just because they've the authorities. Again, my point is that if our lawmakers want our respect,, then they should enact laws that are fair, universal transpateny and applied equally. Unfortunately, my experience is that this is not the case

Seth Brundle · 01-08-2020 11:59pm

Tiger20 wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly.....unfortunately IMO the authorities do no deserve respect. For instance, you pay property tax, but can anyone tell me what you get for that? Absolutely nothing that was not provided before. In other countries, like UK, Belguim, Spain, your bins, street cleaning, school books etc are included , but not here. When we tried to introduce the one tax that you got what you paid for, (water charge) we as a nation refuse to pay it. Use 500 litres of water, pay for 500 litres of water. Your neighbor's use 1000 litres of water, they pay for 1000 litres. Another example is the NCT, where your vehicle must meet very specific criteria re its condition, but leave the test centre and the roads you drive on do not meet any criteria or standard. Are you telling me that an N classified road is of the same standard ? You can go from a dual carriageway to a single lane to a narrow twisty road along the same road. Drive from Cork city to Bantry sometime, and believe me you would not find worse roads in third world countries. TBH, I find your post a bit condescending, that what's wrong with Ireland is people who no longer want to accept the bull**** we put up with. Imagine our revolutionary heroes that we celebrate had that attitude, that we must accept what the authorities say, just because they've the authorities. Again, my point is that if our lawmakers want our respect,, then they should enact laws that are fair, universal transpateny and applied equally. Unfortunately, my experience is that this is not the case

Do tou feel better after blurting out that nonsense?

El Tarangu · 02-08-2020 12:07am

Tiger20 wrote: »

For instance, you pay property tax, but can anyone tell me what you get for that? .... In other countries, like UK, Belguim, Spain, your bins, street cleaning, school books etc are included , but not here.

I live in Belgium; this is pure invention.

You seem to be suggesting that, because planning isn't perfect in Ireland (and I'll concede that it isn't), there should be a free-for-all, and fair fecks to anyone who can get away with it. What if you decided to build some McMansion and got away with it, but then I bought the parcel of land next door and decided to open a sulpher mine or a meat rendering plant and got away with that, where would we be then?

StackSteevens · 02-08-2020 12:08am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Does the minister have the authorisation to instruct a county manager to knock an unauthorised development or sack a county manager?

I would imagine that The Minister has the authorisation to instruct a public servant to uphold the law of the land. If the public servant subsequently disobeys the Minister then that would be grounds for a disciplinary process which could end up with his or her dismissal.

02-08-2020 12:14am

Sinead Mc1 wrote: »

Thought they were untouchable.

But they've gotten away with it..?

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 12:38am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do tou feel better after blurting out that nonsense?

What's nonsense about it? Is it a fact or not that that road conditions are not consistent in this country? That laws are not applied consistently? And fairly. It seems to me what you are saying is that the problems with this country are not the problems of this country, but the people who find fault with the problems of this country

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 12:38am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do tou feel better after blurting out that nonsense?

What's nonsense about it? Is it a fact or not that that road conditions are not consistent in this country? That laws are not applied consistently? And fairly. It seems to me what you are saying is that the problems with this country are not the problems of this country, but the people who find fault with the problems of this country

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 12:39am

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Do tou feel better after blurting out that nonsense?

What's nonsense about it? Is it a fact or not that that road conditions are not consistent in this country? That laws are not applied consistently? And fairly. It seems to me what you are saying is that the problems with this country are not the problems of this country, but the people who find fault with the problems of this country.

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 12:54am

El Tarangu wrote: »

I live in Belgium; this is pure invention.

You seem to be suggesting that, because planning isn't perfect in Ireland (and I'll concede that it isn't), there should be a free-for-all, and fair fecks to anyone who can get away with it. What if you decided to build some McMansion and got away with it, but then I bought the parcel of land next door and decided to open a sulpher mine or a meat rendering plant and got away with that, where would we be then?

You live in Belguim? Tell me, do the authorities collect rubbish from households on the side of the road on a regular basis? Is that pure invention? Is the health service better or worse there? What about public transport? Or the roads? In your honest experience, are public services better there or not? All I want in this country is a "RONSEAL" public service....one that does exactly what it says it does. For instance, I recently went to a local waste centre with a sofa and single bed, paid €47 for the privilege and on my way home, what did I see only another sofa and mattress dumped on the side of the road. In response to people being allowed to build what they want, that is not what I am,saying. What I am saying is to have planning laws, but ones that are applied evenly, fairly and universally. Have plans that lay out intentions for 5,10, 15 years that have services included and that everyone can have confidence in. If you dont think what I am saying about the planning laws of this country are right, familiarise yourself with the case of the local musician in west Kerry who cant get permission for a small dwelling on what is an ancient settlement while others are granted planning for holiday homes in the same area. This is the fact of the laws of Ireland being applied unfairly and indescriminatably. But again, I make the point that the problem seems to be the people who have a problem with these laws, not the laws themselves

JustAThought · 02-08-2020 1:02am

whatever about the McMansion I agree totally about the laws being unfairly applied &
the ‘laws’ of this country being a total farce. Look at what is happening regarding Zone Z planning in the ao called protected
conservation area of St Annes Park in Dublin City Council Area, and the two fingers given to the protected stratus of tye protected trees in ‘Santry’ Park and the high court injunction protecting Malahide Castle in Fingal County Council - planning and legal protection and the ‘might’ of the law is a total joke in this country and only seems to depend on what pull
you have and how deep the taxpayer pockets who you can dig into are - regardless of what the law says against you.

El Tarangu · 02-08-2020 1:13am

Tiger20 wrote: »

You live in Belguim? Tell me, do the authorities collect rubbish from households on the side of the road on a regular basis?

They do, but it's not covered by your property tax, as you claimed; you have to pay for it (though i will concede it's not very expensive). There loads of crappy roads in Belgium also, with the roads of one region being in worse condition than those of the others, to the extent that there are loads of memes about it.

it's true that the public transport is a lot better and the hospitals are good - but these things come with a cost, I doubt that you would want to pay Belgian taxes.

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 1:27am

El Tarangu wrote: »

They do, but it's not covered by your property tax, as you claimed; you have to pay for it (though i will concede it's not very expensive). There loads of crappy roads in Belgium also, with the roads of one region being in worse condition than those of the others, to the extent that there are loads of memes about it.

it's true that the public transport is a lot better and the hospitals are good - but these things come with a cost, I doubt that you would want to pay Belgian taxes.

Pay Belgian taxes? Happily, if I got Belgian public services. As I pointed out, we get nothing for our property tax that we did not get before. I would have happily paid the water charge, because it is the one thing that you actually got to see what you paid for. Turn on your tap, theres your water. My point re planning laws, and all laws in this country, is that they are totally unfair and not applied evenly. There are many examples of this, for instance the Central Bank fmhad permission to build 16 storeys, but "someone" built 17, did they have to knock a floor? No. So, if you want a law applying to the people in this OP, then apply it to everyone

Widdensushi · 02-08-2020 1:43am

Tiger20 wrote: »

Pay Belgian taxes? Happily, if I got Belgian public services. As I pointed out, we get nothing for our property tax that we did not get before. I would have happily paid the water charge, because it is the one thing that you actually got to see what you paid for. Turn on your tap, theres your water. My point re planning laws, and all laws in this country, is that they are totally unfair and not applied evenly. There are many examples of this, for instance the Central Bank fmhad permission to build 16 storeys, but "someone" built 17, did they have to knock a floor? No. So, if you want a law applying to the people in this OP, then apply it to everyone

Rubbish, we need rules or everyone can build what they want, I am not necessarily against that but if you have rules then the people who ignore them have to take down their properties or there will be a free for all. It's an injustice to everyone who applies for planning permission that this property is still standing.

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 1:47am

Widdensushi wrote: »

Rubbish, we need rules or everyone can build what they want, I am not necessarily against that but if you have rules then the people who ignore them have to take down their properties or there will be a free for all. It's an injustice to everyone who applies for planning permission that this property is still standing.

That's my point, which you seem to miss. We need rules, but ones that are applied to everyone. Why should these people have to take down their property if the Central Bank did not have to abide by the laws and remove a floor that they had no permission for? To me, that is the injustice

s1ippy · 02-08-2020 7:06am

If everyone just did it then we could all just do it.

Fucl< da Co €o
Let's develop Mayo
Never mind the 5-0
Watch me build a gaf tho
Next we'll start in Sligo
Fill the country with ho
.
.
.
.

mes. Homes.

MaryLouMacari · 02-08-2020 7:45am

Does anyone know the reasons why the Murrays were refused planning in the first place?

2018na · 02-08-2020 8:00am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Does anyone know the reasons why the Murrays were refused planning in the first place?

Planning in Meath is a joke. Broke the Murrays hearts over a period when they legitimately applied a number of times albeit for a smaller dwelling. Around that time another builder had got retention for a massive mansion built in the wrong field and drastically bigger than any permits granted. Also this mansion is fully visible from the road whereas the Murray house is up a very quiet cul de sac. As regards knocking it what sort of a man he gonna bring machinery on site to actually knock it. Everyone is really busy and no one needs that sort of job along with the inevitable hassle it will bring the contractor. It’s also amazing it got to the stage of being totally finished without the planning authorities realizing something’s amiss no

ronivek · 02-08-2020 8:12am

Tiger20 wrote: »

There are many examples of this, for instance the Central Bank fmhad permission to build 16 storeys, but "someone" built 17, did they have to knock a floor? No. So, if you want a law applying to the people in this OP, then apply it to everyone

They spent over a million pounds reducing the height of the building because they were in breach of planning laws. At least pick a valid example if you're going to claim planning laws aren't 'applied evenly'.

lawrencesummers · 02-08-2020 8:26am

Bought farm land.
Turned down for small house.
Built bigger house
Turned down for retention.

Fcuk em.

MaryLouMacari · 02-08-2020 8:30am

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Bought farm land.
Turned down for small house.
Built bigger house
Turned down for retention.

Fcuk em.

Really depends on why they were turned down and what else was being granted around them?

ronivek · 02-08-2020 8:33am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Really depends on why they were turned down and what else was being granted around them?

It really doesn’t. They built without planning permission and they’ve been ordered to tear it down by the Supreme Court.

sydthebeat · 02-08-2020 8:38am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Really depends on why they were turned down and what else was being granted around them?

It absolutely doesn't.

They showed compete disregard for law

Cyrus · 02-08-2020 8:40am

Tiger20 wrote: »

Pay Belgian taxes? Happily, if I got Belgian public services. As I pointed out, we get nothing for our property tax that we did not get before. I would have happily paid the water charge, because it is the one thing that you actually got to see what you paid for. Turn on your tap, theres your water. My point re planning laws, and all laws in this country, is that they are totally unfair and not applied evenly. There are many examples of this, for instance the Central Bank fmhad permission to build 16 storeys, but "someone" built 17, did they have to knock a floor? No. So, if you want a law applying to the people in this OP, then apply it to everyone

You do realise that the reason we don’t have water charges is because of people with your attitude to law and order .

No system is perfect but it’s a lot better than the alternative.

MaryLouMacari · 02-08-2020 8:43am

sydthebeat wrote: »

It absolutely doesn't.

They showed compete disregard for law

Maybe for a law that wasn't being applied equally?

If you and your neighbour were both parked on double yellow lines and you were the only one clamped, would you simply pay the fee with a smile and not want to know why the other car wasn't clamped?

As I already asked, do we know why they were refused planning?

I think someone has already stated that an even bigger, more prominent house was granted planning nearby.

Yellow_Fern · 02-08-2020 8:45am

2018na wrote: »

Planning in Meath is a joke. Broke the Murrays hearts over a period when they legitimately applied a number of times albeit for a smaller dwelling. Around that time another builder had got retention for a massive mansion built in the wrong field and drastically bigger than any permits granted. Also this mansion is fully visible from the road whereas the Murray house is up a very quiet cul de sac. As regards knocking it what sort of a man he gonna bring machinery on site to actually knock it. Everyone is really busy and no one needs that sort of job along with the inevitable hassle it will bring the contractor. It’s also amazing it got to the stage of being totally finished without the planning authorities realizing something’s amiss no

A true Meath patriot

um7y1h83ge06nx · 02-08-2020 8:45am

I'm not saying they may not have a grievance but no two planning applications are the same so it's impossible to do a like for like comparison.

Irish_peppa · 02-08-2020 8:45am

Is there a streetview of the house?. If its far back from the road and or surrounded by large trees out of site out of mind i guess:pac:

sydthebeat · 02-08-2020 8:54am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Maybe for a law that wasn't being applied equally?

If you and your neighbour were both parked on double yellow lines and you were the only one clamped, would you simply pay the fee with a smile and not want to know why the other car wasn't clamped?

As I already asked, do we know why they were refused planning?

I think someone has already stated that an even bigger, more prominent house was granted planning nearby.

Check the councils website to find out what the reasons for refusal were.

Also check an bord pleanala as they also refused it.

Check the high courts ruling as to why its illegal.

And while your at that check the supreme courts ruling as to why it upheld the high courts ruling.

Or maybe you think they are all in this together as some kind of major conspiracy??

MaryLouMacari · 02-08-2020 8:58am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Check the councils website to find out what the reasons for refusal were.

Also check an bord pleanala as they also refused it.

Check the high courts ruling as to why its illegal.

And while your at that check the supreme courts ruling as to why it upheld the high courts ruling.

Or maybe you think they are all in this together as some kind of major conspiracy??

{SNIP}

Send me on the planning reference number.

sydthebeat · 02-08-2020 9:01am

dubrov · 02-08-2020 9:08am

[QUOTE=MaryLouMacari;114200524

Send me on the planning reference number.[/QUOTE]

Someone got out of bed on the wrong side this morning!

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 9:30am

ronivek wrote: »

They spent over a million pounds reducing the height of the building because they were in breach of planning laws. At least pick a valid example if you're going to claim planning laws aren't 'applied evenly'.

"They" spent over a million. Who's the they......its the taxpayer, not any individual, I dont think the taxpayer will pay to demolish this house, it will fall on the individual.

ronivek · 02-08-2020 9:49am

Tiger20 wrote: »

"They" spent over a million. Who's the they......its the taxpayer, not any individual, I dont think the taxpayer will pay to demolish this house, it will fall on the individual.

It fell to the owner to remedy; the owner in that case being the Central Bank. Precisely the same way in this case it has fallen on the owner to remedy.

The fact the Central Bank is state owned is immaterial to your point about planning laws not being applied evenly. Unless you’re trying to claim the Murray’s are receiving preferential treatment in some way?

Tiger20 · 02-08-2020 9:51am

Cyrus wrote: »

You do realise that the reason we don’t have water charges is because of people with your attitude to law and order .

No system is perfect but it’s a lot better than the alternative.

What do you know about my attitude? If you read my post I said I would happily pay, if I got the service. I supported and paid water charges, so how can it be people like me being responsible for not having them. It was actually spineless populist politicians, IMO. The point you miss which I repeat, is that I want and support laws but want them applied fairly, not on a who you know basis, and that the problems in this country seems to be people who rail against injustice. Were the speeding laws applied to everyone? A certain guard who highlighted that certain well connected people were continually flouting were getting their points wiped, happily speeding away while the rest of us drove legally. But that wasnt the problem , he was the problem. That's just one of the the sort of thing I am talking about

maestroamado · 02-08-2020 10:08am

2018na wrote: »

Planning in Meath is a joke. Broke the Murrays hearts over a period when they legitimately applied a number of times albeit for a smaller dwelling. Around that time another builder had got retention for a massive mansion built in the wrong field and drastically bigger than any permits granted. Also this mansion is fully visible from the road whereas the Murray house is up a very quiet cul de sac. As regards knocking it what sort of a man he gonna bring machinery on site to actually knock it. Everyone is really busy and no one needs that sort of job along with the inevitable hassle it will bring the contractor. It’s also amazing it got to the stage of being totally finished without the planning authorities realizing something’s amiss no

Wouldn't it be perfect for Asylum seekers and save knocking it down.
Sorry i did not mean that to be reply/quote...

listermint · 02-08-2020 10:17am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Send me on the planning reference number.

Ah so they were shopped now....

So you acknowledge they knew what they were at and did completely the wrong thing.
..gas stuff altogether.

runawaybishop · 02-08-2020 10:24am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Maybe for a law that wasn't being applied equally?

If you and your neighbour were both parked on double yellow lines and you were the only one clamped, would you simply pay the fee with a smile and not want to know why the other car wasn't clamped?

As I already asked, do we know why they were refused planning?

I think someone has already stated that an even bigger, more prominent house was granted planning nearby.

If they were turned down for planning the correct thing to do is appeal, not to fire ahead with a house double the size.

You can view their application and refusal on the Coco planning website.

Darc19 · 02-08-2020 10:28am

Would be a shame to knock it. It should be purchased by meath cc for €1 and used for the community. It would make an ideal home for people with disabilities.

The Murrays put two fingers up to the Planning laws by building something twice the size as they originally wanted.

It was a eff you, we'll ignore you and double the size.

The land they purchased was sterilized from development and its near impossible to circumvent sterilization orders which are made for good reason.

And I don't believe for one minute their appeals and apologies. They are game playing and will say anything hoping to get people to have pity.

And there is no way demolition would cost €326,000. That again is asking a firm to give as high a price as possible.

Darc19 · 02-08-2020 10:33am

MaryLouMacari wrote: »

Send me on the planning reference number.

Very easy to find a planning file from the persons name or the general area.

But land was sterilized from development and a legal document was on file to that effect.

They bought the land knowing it was agriculture land and a sterilisation order applied to it.

They gambled, they lost, and then they stuck two fingers up to everyone

Both the high court and the Supreme Court were damning of their actions

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/supreme-court-navan-couple-must-demolish-house-built-without-planning-permission

nigeldaniel · 02-08-2020 10:37am

There can be no reward for arrogance and blatant disregard for the law, as that, is a slippery slope we can not go on.
I half know of a similar situation in Kerry years ago when a bin company built mega warehouses and sheds with no permission too. They sold up the company and set up shop as a hardware depot.
Arrogance and belligerence are just sloppy acts of almost childish rebellion.
When we are adults that just does not fly.
It's a stone toss away from a chaos society.

sentient_6 · 02-08-2020 10:39am

I haven't looked at the original planning application(s) but I would be curious if they had acquired the services of a qualified civil engineer? Who's remit should have been to design a house for them that they wanted but would also get planning? And also this process should have happened before going through with buying the land?!

The original costs of this would be a fraction of what has happened since. A painful lesson learned and I have no sympathy.

micar · 02-08-2020 10:54am

2018na wrote: »

Planning in Meath is a joke. Broke the Murrays hearts over a period when they legitimately applied a number of times albeit for a smaller dwelling. Around that time another builder had got retention for a massive mansion built in the wrong field and drastically bigger than any permits granted. Also this mansion is fully visible from the road whereas the Murray house is up a very quiet cul de sac. As regards knocking it what sort of a man he gonna bring machinery on site to actually knock it. Everyone is really busy and no one needs that sort of job along with the inevitable hassle it will bring the contractor. It’s also amazing it got to the stage of being totally finished without the planning authorities realizing something’s amiss no

Do you know the Murray's?

Your post screams of this. As so, you are unable to offer an impartial opinion.

They put in planning permission. Got declined.

Went ahead and built a house twice the size as the one they had planning permission declined.

Sure it's built now, may as well let it remain in place.

Eh no.....

I'll go in a knock it down for €300k.....no bother.

The planning authorities don't go around and check that declined cases aren't proceeded with. One would expect that the result the declined planning permission is adhered to.

We'll build it giving people the impression that permission was granted and no one will be the wiser.

Allowing them to keep the house will give other carte blanche to do what ever they wish.......no point in planning laws then.

Yellow_Fern · 02-08-2020 10:57am

I am no builder but 300k sounds way off. demolition is cheap.

CrankyHaus · 02-08-2020 10:58am

If they were treated differently and unfairly by the Council then they could have judiciallly reviewed it's decision.

The fact that they didn't, despite engaging in unsuccessful litigation up to the Supreme Court, illustrates that they weren't.

StackSteevens · 02-08-2020 10:58am

2018na wrote: »

It’s also amazing it got to the stage of being totally finished without the planning authorities realizing something’s amiss no

It was built incredibly quickly, taking less than 8 months, according to this story:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-30846774.html

(It's possible that he had started to build, anticipating that he'd get PP, before the refusal was issued, so he pigheadely kept going.)

Seth Brundle · 02-08-2020 11:06am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I am no builder but 300k sounds way off. demolition is cheap.

Without knowing the site, there could be expensive reinstatement costs e.g. if it was in an NHA.

bladespin · 02-08-2020 11:10am

Widdensushi wrote: »

Rubbish, we need rules or everyone can build what they want, I am not necessarily against that but if you have rules then the people who ignore them have to take down their properties or there will be a free for all. It's an injustice to everyone who applies for planning permission that this property is still standing.

Agree but there lies the problem I think, Meath is one of the most difficult places to get planning afik they really seem to go out of their way to deny rather than engage, very discouraging, leading to the ‘feck them’ attitude.

Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

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