Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

Stheno · 21-12-2015 1:53am

connemara man wrote: »

How long after a try can a ref call back a TMO? Just saw Dan Biggar get stopped during his run up for a conversion. That seems far too late.

Think it's two minutes for the conversion to be taken?

connemara man · 21-12-2015 1:54am

Stheno wrote: »

Think it's two minutes for the conversion to be taken?

No he didn't penalise for taking too long. He stopped Biggar while taking the conversion to check a TMO

Stheno · 21-12-2015 1:54am

connemara man wrote: »

No he didn't penalise for taking too long. He stopped Biggar while taking the conversion to check a TMO

Yeah but there is a time limit in which they can do that.

connemara man · 21-12-2015 1:56am

Stheno wrote: »

Yeah but there is a time limit in which they can do that.

Really? I thought it was when the conversion was being taken.

Stheno · 21-12-2015 2:00am

connemara man wrote: »

Really? I thought it was when the conversion was being taken.

I *think* that the kicker has a certain time to take the conversion, and prior to that the ref can stop it

If they physically hit the ball, they can't

sydthebeat · 21-12-2015 9:22am

the kicker has 60 seconds for a penalty, 90 for a conversion.

but....

in the biggar case, the ref wanted to check the grounding of the try after he (or the tmo, i dont know) saw a replay.

once a conversion is taken, he cannot go back and review the try so he blew the whistle just before biggar kicked the ball.

farcical really

ThisRegard · 21-12-2015 10:32am

I thought there was a minimum length for the in goal area, what was the story with the one at Leicester's ground? Looked quite short, and I'm sure I've seen what look like short ones at other grounds too.

sydthebeat · 21-12-2015 10:57am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I thought there was a minimum length for the in goal area, what was the story with the one at Leicester's ground? Looked quite short, and I'm sure I've seen what look like short ones at other grounds too.

technically no, but min 6 m is recommended

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=1&language=EN

preferably 10 m

max 22 m

ThisRegard · 21-12-2015 11:04am

Yeah, that's the diagram I checked before posting, so it's just advisory rather than law. I would have thought it makes sense for it to standardised and be law, how often do you see tries scored after a sprint and a dive to tap a loose ball down before it goes dead. In a short goal area you could feel cheated not having that extra bit of distance to do so.

connemara man · 21-12-2015 11:10am

sydthebeat wrote: »

the kicker has 60 seconds for a penalty, 90 for a conversion.

but....

in the biggar case, the ref wanted to check the grounding of the try after he (or the tmo, i dont know) saw a replay.

once a conversion is taken, he cannot go back and review the try so he blew the whistle just before biggar kicked the ball.

farcical really

It's ridiculous it should be changed to when kicker is in the process of kicking, ie same as when the opposing team can go for a charge down. The game has restarted by then.

Losty Dublin · 21-12-2015 11:12am

In all my years I don't think I've ever seen an In-Goal that's 10 metres long. The In Goal of the back pitch in Donnybrook was even wedged shaped!

JPNelsforearm · 21-12-2015 11:56am

Question, if a player is tackled, goes down to a knee as he trys to break through, not fully brought to deck. Can the jackler go in for the ball and have no obligation to release/rebind if the ballcarrier hits the deck?

Losty Dublin · 21-12-2015 11:58am

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Question, if a player is tackled, goes down to a knee as he trys to break through, not fully brought to deck. Can the jackler go in for the ball and have no obligation to release?

Once you are brought down to your knee you are considered to be tackled and you must release.

Hagz · 10-01-2016 5:21pm

When a penalty is given for the defence straying offside from a line-out before the ball has gone 15, where is the mark?

Losty Dublin · 10-01-2016 5:38pm

Hagz wrote: »

When a penalty is given for the defence straying offside from a line-out before the ball has gone 15, where is the mark?

If they stray offside while the lineout is taking place, the penalty is taken on the 15 metre line parallel to where the offside line was.

wp_rathead · 08-02-2016 11:16pm

Just looking at the law book and tad confused over one aspect of the choke tackle

Now we know "When the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place."
We also know if "If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground'"

So lets pretend opposition holding player up, no ball carrying teammate binds and the player manages to get knee down
Now this is where I'm a tad confused- as "Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers." - so as far as I can tell the player has no obligation to release the player who was tackled ?

However the player who is "brought to ground" has to release the ball and we know "No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it."

So if ball carrier gets knee to ground can ref penalise opposition under the "no player may prevent the tackle player from releasing the ball"?

Nermal · 08-02-2016 11:46pm

Chargedown by Ireland that Rhys Priestland kicked out of the Welsh in-goal - I'm hearing if he touched it down it would be a drop out.

But that doesn't sound right to me, I don't think a chargedown is considered playing at the ball - I would have thought that's effectively defense bringing possession into in-goal and touching down which would be a 5m scrum.

Who's right?

Losty Dublin · 08-02-2016 11:51pm

A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

Should the player in possession of the ball go to ground the maul is over, the tackle laws apply and the onus to release comes into play, both on the tackled and tackler. A player need not end up on the ground with the tackled player to complete a tackle; see Horgan at 20 seconds in for an example of same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edxDBi5f26U

wp_rathead wrote: »

Just looking at the law book and tad confused over one aspect of the choke tackle

Now we know "When the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place."
We also know if "If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground'"

So lets pretend opposition holding player up, no ball carrying teammate binds and the player manages to get knee down
Now this is where I'm a tad confused- as "Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers." - so as far as I can tell the player has no obligation to release the player who was tackled ?

However the player who is "brought to ground" has to release the ball and we know "No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it."

So if ball carrier gets knee to ground can ref penalise opposition under the "no player may prevent the tackle player from releasing the ball"?

wp_rathead · 08-02-2016 11:59pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

oh ya im grand with that bit:)

Should the player in possession of the ball go to ground the maul is over, the tackle laws apply and the onus to release comes into play, both on the tackled and tackler. A player need not end up on the ground with the tackled player to complete a tackle; see Horgan at 20 seconds in for an example of same.

see this is where I am confused
Law Book states:

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

So how come it says here if you "are not tackler" but you have to release the player like you were a tackler?

Losty Dublin · 09-02-2016 1:20am

wp_rathead wrote: »

Law Book states:
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.

So how come it says here if you "are not tackler" but you have to release the player like you were a tackler?

In essence you can't play a player who is on the ground. You may take the ball from a player who is on the ground after a tackle but you can't play them and you can't hinder their effort to release or to pass the ball away or their effort to get to their feet if they weren't held in the tackle.

wp_rathead · 09-02-2016 1:34am

thanks, this is what confused me
So would a decent defense of the poorly named "choke tackle" be to get a knee to the ground and then the opposition player could be penalised as they "prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it"?

Losty Dublin · 09-02-2016 1:56am

wp_rathead wrote: »

thanks, this is what confused me
So would a decent defense of the poorly named "choke tackle" be to get a knee to the ground and then the opposition player could be penalised as they "prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it"?

You can try but it's unlikely to happen. The beauty of the choke tackle is that it is very hard to deal if you fall foul to it. When formed it's nigh impossible for the team in possession to drive the maul forward to try and win a scrum, it's nigh impossible to collapse a choke tackle legally or otherwise in order to try and turn it into a ruck and it's nigh impossible to retain possession by ripping out the ball to try and keep possession. In a way it's a perfect tactic as it's very very difficult to defend against once it's utilised.

Edit. Having read your post again we need to consider that there is an onus to on the ball carrier to release the ball when grounded as well as the tacler. It's also illegal to collapse a maul.

shrapnel222 · 09-02-2016 11:23am

Nermal wrote: »

Chargedown by Ireland that Rhys Priestland kicked out of the Welsh in-goal - I'm hearing if he touched it down it would be a drop out.

But that doesn't sound right to me, I don't think a chargedown is considered playing at the ball - I would have thought that's effectively defense bringing possession into in-goal and touching down which would be a 5m scrum.

Who's right?

the ball has come off Toner, and as he was the last person to touch it, Priestland could have grounded the ball for a 22 drop out. Same if the ball goes into touch after a chargedown, the kicking team get the throw in as last person to touch the ball was the blocker.

Chargedown isn't considered playing the ball in the sense that the ref won't call a knock on against you, however you are still the last person to touch the ball.

sydthebeat · 09-02-2016 1:11pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A choke tackle is misleadingly named as it's actually a maul and not a tackle. For two opposing players standing and challenging for the ball to become a maul a third player from either team has to arrive and bind in.

not technically correct

the two opposing players standing, as you refer to, have to be joined by one of the ball carriers team mates to form a maul

there could be 15 defenders around the ball carrier holding him up, but thats not a maul.

degsie · 09-02-2016 8:31pm

Might be a silly question but what do the players generally 'chant' in a scrum just after the ref says "set"? Sounds like a count?

The Lost Sheep · 09-02-2016 10:12pm

degsie wrote: »

Might be a silly question but what do the players generally 'chant' in a scrum just after the ref says "set"? Sounds like a count?

All teams will have different calls. Its all about the timing of the hit and getting that right. It will be a command just to help with timing and helping attempt to win possession

Steve · 13-02-2016 3:13am

When does a moving maul become a ruck? or can it?

Was confused in Leinster Zebre when what appeared to be a maul fell or was collapsed and opponent on the 'wrong /offside' side of the new ruck picked the ball and ran. Neither ref or linesman flagged it although it was clearly in their sight.

The Lost Sheep · 13-02-2016 11:22am

Steve wrote: »

When does a moving maul become a ruck? or can it?

Was confused in Leinster Zebre when what appeared to be a maul fell or was collapsed and opponent on the 'wrong /offside' side of the new ruck picked the ball and ran. Neither ref or linesman flagged it although it was clearly in their sight.

A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck

shrapnel222 · 13-02-2016 12:55pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck

worth adding that the ball needs to come out cleanly and immediately.

meathstevie · 15-03-2016 12:07am

pickarooney wrote: »

I was sure I read somewhere that the lineout their did not need to be completely straight just as long as it was in the corridor after travelling five metres but I can't find it again.

Completely straight is sometimes not easy to achieve due to for example wind. Especially at amateur level most refs would be quite happy to see a "contestable" ball thrown as in the non throwing team had a reasonable chance to win the ball. When I referee a game for example and the hooker throws a crooked line out ball to his team's disadvantage I would play advantage.

Dave_The_Sheep · 01-04-2016 10:51am

Interesting one there, I didn't know that you had to be in control of the ball to have it be in touch, but just touching it doesn't count.

phog · 06-09-2016 10:45am

This might be of some interest - a look at the new laws

sydthebeat · 06-09-2016 11:03am

i also enjoyed reading this from the same site

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2016/03/20/the-scrum-through-the-decades/

dregin · 11-09-2016 3:45pm

JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?

Akrasia · 12-09-2016 11:31am

dregin wrote: »

JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?

I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure

dregin · 12-09-2016 2:17pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure

He asked the TMO to look at it and the TMO said it was fine. Play went on and a few minutes later the stadium screen was showing the replay in slow motion - that was when he asked to see it himself. It allows the local production company to influence the ref.

The Lost Sheep · 12-09-2016 2:25pm

dregin wrote: »

JP Doyle just saw the wigglesworth trip on the big screen in the stadium at Exeter V Saracens WELL after he'd asked the TMO if it was OK and he said there wWs no penalty. Doyle went back and gave Wigglesworth yellow... I thought the ref wasn't allowed to be influenced by the stadium screens?

They are allowed use the big screens to aid their decisions

Akrasia wrote: »

I've seen Nigel Owens asking the TMO to put a certain angle on the screen so he can get a second look at an incident rather than wait for the TMO to review all the angles.

Maybe it's not strictly by the laws of the game, but it's common sense if a referee already suspects something but just wants a second look to be sure

It is by regs. Refs can use big screen to decide themselves or go to TMO for their decision

dregin · 13-09-2016 7:00pm

Grand. Cheers.

gaius c · 15-09-2016 7:46pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A maul ends successfully(can become a ruck) when the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul, the ball is on the ground, the ball is on or over the goal line. So when a maul goes to ground/falls and is in the field of play it can become a ruck

A maul can never become a ruck. You're thinking of a collapsed maul which is refereed differently. Opposition players are not obliged to roll away for instance.

gaius c · 15-09-2016 7:49pm

phog wrote: »

This might be of some interest - a look at the new laws

The maul ones are straightforward enough. The ruck ones will be interesting seeing as the human torpedo clearout has become de rigueur at most levels of the game now.

Losty Dublin · 16-09-2016 8:59pm

gaius c wrote: »

A maul can never become a ruck. You're thinking of a collapsed maul which is refereed differently. Opposition players are not obliged to roll away for instance.

Huh???

A ruck can't become a maul yeah but a maul can become a ruck.

All it takes is for the ball to be on the ground and for at least one player from each team to bind over the ball from a successfully ended maul. This can happen from a rip or from the ball carrier letting go of the ball and it going to ground or from the ball carrier legally going to ground. In the good old days, it was a common tactic for teams to let go of a ball mid maul in other to let it become a lawful ruck.

pickarooney · 19-09-2016 10:29am

A player can pick and go from a ruck while a team mate binds on, forming a maul.

Losty Dublin · 19-09-2016 10:56am

pickarooney wrote: »

A player can pick and go from a ruck while a team mate binds on, forming a maul.

Not in Law, no. Once a player picks up and passes or runs with the ball then the ruck is successfully over. What they may do is to try and form a new maul from open play which is what you've described here but I know what you mean.

gaius c · 19-09-2016 11:59am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Huh??? A ruck can't become a maul yeah but a maul can become a ruck.

All it takes is for the ball to be on the ground and for at least one player from each team to bind over the ball from a successfully ended maul. This can happen from a rip or from the ball carrier letting go of the ball and it going to ground or from the ball carrier legally going to ground. In the good old days, it was a common tactic for teams to let go of a ball mid maul in other to let it become a lawful ruck.

Nope. Law 17.5.
Once the ball is on the ground, the maul is over.

The fact that you might get a ruck from this is incidental and players often misunderstand this.

Losty Dublin · 19-09-2016 7:32pm

gaius c wrote: »

Nope. Law 17.5.
Once the ball is on the ground, the maul is over.

The fact that you might get a ruck from this is incidental and players often misunderstand this.

Nobody is claiming that the ruck is part of the maul. Yes it's two different aspects of the game which are covered by two distinct laws but it is incorrect to say that it can't and doesn't happen that a maul can lawfully becomes a ruck.

gaius c · 19-09-2016 9:11pm

The maul ends.
The ruck forms.
One does not "become" the other any more than a pass "becomes" a knock on.

sydthebeat · 19-09-2016 9:16pm

gaius c wrote: »

The maul ends.
The ruck forms.
One does not "become" the other any more than a pass "becomes" a knock on.

go back to view the original question.....

When does a moving maul become a ruck? or can it?

thats why posters have referred to one act "becoming" others.

mfceiling · 24-09-2016 10:17am

Player kicks a penalty. Misses. Opponent attempting to catch it in the dead ball area knocks it on. Is it counted as a knock on and therefore a 5m scrum to the other team?

The Lost Sheep · 24-09-2016 5:49pm

mfceiling wrote: »

Player kicks a penalty. Misses. Opponent attempting to catch it in the dead ball area knocks it on. Is it counted as a knock on and therefore a 5m scrum to the other team?

Yes.

sydthebeat · 25-09-2016 12:41am

From a kick at goal, ball hits post and comes back into field of play, bounces back over the bar.

Score or no?

Any difference if a penalty or conversion?

Rugby 101 - Know your rucks from your mauls!

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