United Ireland Poll - please vote

15-12-2021 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324679#Comment_118324679

So NI would leave the United Kingdom of GB and NI and join what would effectively be a United Republic of Ireland and NI ?

Why ? Why would we not want to be part of the natural island country we live on ? Why would we want to repeat the mistake of the United Kingdom just as its starting to dismantle ? Why would we continue with an artificial division ? The UK is a failed entity, created to support the British Empire, and since the British Empire is no longer a thing, the United Kingdom loses its' raison d'être. It is a legacy construct without a purpose. And NI is a failed state which is an unfortunate by-product of the UK.

I would also ask Nationalists to remember that btw - NI Unionists are merely continuing what has been passed down to them through generations, the real evil party in this is in London. It is only from distance, whether physical or time, that the failure of the UK will be apparent. When you are in it, and are used to it, it's maybe a lot harder to spot that failure, and certainly to admit that the construct you have clinged to for your lifetime is in fact a failure. Sort of like finding out in your 40s that Santa ... etc, etc.

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324644#Comment_118324644

I asked for you to show me these posts hence "citation needed". Otherwise it's just your usual made up nonsense.

BluePlanet · 15-12-2021 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324644#Comment_118324644

The reason the population of Unionists will diminish rapidly after a UI is because the very concept of Unionism, will have no future here anymore.

There exists no constitutional path toward 1) dissolving the RoI and 2) join the UK. None whatsoever. Neither is there a constitutional path to secede from RoI.

It may not be that people actually repatriate, some will but most will not. What will happen, is the Unionist identity will cease to have meaning, and will be quietly dropped by the majority of Protestants or that tribe, within NI in due course.

Identity is complex concept in general and I like to think of it as a Venn diagram of concepts, tribes, labels and just mental paradigms like: Protestant, British, Unionist, Civil Servant, Husband, Father, Newry local, Man U, Linfield and on and on.

The Unionist label in this example, will quietly get dropped by more and more people year by year.

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324679#Comment_118324679

This middle ground you speak of is so large and all encompassing that given they've somehow managed to stay quiet about their will for a federal republic, you'd have to think some or all of what you've just stated here is just abject bollócks.

Care to show us evidence of this groundswell of support for a Federal Republic?

You've a lot of citations to establish, best get cracking.

Fionn1952 · 15-12-2021 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324808#Comment_118324808

I'd imagine support for a federal Republic would have even less support than Blanch's previous independent NI solution (which despite his constant attempts to attach to the NI identity has only ever had support among hardline Loyalists and has barely ever crept into double digit support, languishing in low single figures ever since).

Despite Blanch's attempts to portray APNI's explicit agnosticism on the border question as supporting NI independence, it is currently supported by precisely zero political parties. Given that Blanch thinks this is a reasonable solution preferred by moderates (like the UDA, who wanted NI independence), it is entirely unsurprising that he thinks a solution like a federal Ireland (which doesn't have enough support to even statistically register) is reasonable.

Essentially Blanch does an awful lot of talking on behalf of, 'the middle ground' in NI, despite blatantly obviously having the square root of f*ck all exposure to the actual middle ground in NI.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324769#Comment_118324769

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/is-it-time-to-revisit-the-idea-of-a-federal-ireland-1.1998276

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25513014

https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/it-is-finally-time-for-a-federal-union-in-ireland?lang=fr

You would think I was reinventing the wheel by some of the silly responses.

A federal island is one of many possible solutions in a discussion on the future of this island. Those who want to keep their heads in the sand and ignore the options are welcome to do so.

Brucie Bonus · 15-12-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324183#Comment_118324183

No we all don't. One view is a UI. That needs to be accepted. Its not a UI but kinda not. If it doesn't happen yet so be it. If it does its a UI with no apologies or caveats.

It seems we should be open to all eventualities except a UI.

Brucie Bonus · 15-12-2021 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324679#Comment_118324679

Reminds of the time lads went over to London to discuss Irish independence and came back with partition.

Nothing sectarian or exclusionary about democracy. No matter how you try to spin your bias.

BluePlanet · 15-12-2021 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325782#Comment_118325782

That is hilarious blanch.

Your first link is a suggestion of Conor Cruise O'Brien, the Anglo Irish fool that opposed the GFA.

The 2nd link draws it's inspiration from Eire Nua, the very document you recently cited as comedic!

An interesting example of how a federal united Ireland could look like was presented by Sinn Féin in 1971 in Éire Nua (New Ireland).

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326147#Comment_118326147

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Ireland_Forum#Report

The idea has been on the table for a long time and was one of the options considered by the New Ireland Forum in 1984. That one also looked at joint sovereignty as well, another idea dissed by the so-called experts on here.

Lads, you need to wake up, the third minority in the North won't sign up for the dream of a single united Ireland. Alternative options will come on the table if you want some kind of united Ireland.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326115#Comment_118326115

Yes, one view is a united Ireland. Within Northern Ireland that is the view of a diminishing minority, hence the need to look at the other options seriously.

BluePlanet · 15-12-2021 4:20pm

You sneer at the low support for a UI, yet there is far, far more support for that than your Eire Nua-Lite (federal ireland) idea.

But hey, knock yourself out.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 4:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326208#Comment_118326208

Compromises never have support at the outset, that is the nature of them.

The reality is that a united Ireland of a single State is further away than ever with support dwindling in the North. With the people of the South being determined to hold on to their flags and anthems and way of like, the only options for movement towards a united Ireland are joint sovereignty or a federal island.

BluePlanet · 15-12-2021 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326244#Comment_118326244

I disagree. And infact i'm coming round to holding on the flag. While i am totally open to changing the flag, doing so would require a Constitutional amendment. Since a UI is already assumed within the Constitution, the most simple constitutional method of a UI, is literally to just allow NI vote for one.

So long as we keep the flag, no constitutional referendum here in the south is required. If true, that simplifies things a lot. Consent here for a UI can be expressed as simple matter of a majority TD's in the Dail.

Your Eire Nua-lite proposal, has to muster not just support in NI, but also in the RoI. It's a non runner and you know it.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 5:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326304#Comment_118326304

Yes, the most simple constitutional method of a UI would be for the North to just simply vote for one. However, and this is the realistic viewpoint, with support for nationalist parties remaining below 40% and ebbing away, the constituency that would simply vote for a united Ireland is getting smaller and smaller. As I keep saying, the challenge is to find something that the middle who like the Northern Irish identity will vote for.

eire4 · 15-12-2021 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324162#Comment_118324162

I would say you were very clear. You sounded like Trump with your "many people have told me" line and then you asked why not change the name of the country. As I said before no need IMHO the name of the country is Ireland in English and Eire in Irish and is fine as is IMHO.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326614#Comment_118326614

And that is your opinion, and you are entitled to hold it. I am also entitled to hold the opinion that that kind of exclusionary nationalist approach will not lead to a united Ireland and that if people want a united Ireland, they are going to have to compromise in a lot of ways, including possibly in relation to the name.

BluePlanet · 15-12-2021 5:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326571#Comment_118326571

Nationalist parties hold 46% of NI Assembly seats, so where are you getting below 40%?

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326640#Comment_118326640

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Northern_Ireland_Assembly_election

2017 Assembly elections: 39.8%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Northern_Ireland_local_elections

2019 Local elections: 36.33%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_Northern_Ireland

2019 General election: 37.7%

eire4 · 15-12-2021 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326631#Comment_118326631

Love that post just a brilliant bit of trolling, certainly gave me a good laugh. Starting out by saying I am entitled to my opinion. In this case that the name of Ireland/Eire as fine as is and then you turn around and say my opinion is an "exclusionary nationalist approach". So apparently even though I am entitled to my own opinion it is not acceptable hence the pejorative. I would posit your pejorative towards my contention that Ireland/Eire as the country's name is fine as is is in fact projection on your part at least when it comes to the word "exclusionary".

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 6:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326780#Comment_118326780

Your opinion is your opinion, if others feel a certain way about it, what is wrong with that?

eire4 · 15-12-2021 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326968#Comment_118326968

You start out by saying I am entitled to my opinion. In this case that the name of Ireland/Eire as fine as is and then you turn around and say my opinion is an "exclusionary nationalist approach". So apparently even though I am entitled to my own opinion it is not acceptable hence the pejorative. I would posit your pejorative towards my contention that Ireland/Eire as the country's name is fine as is is in fact projection on your part at least when it comes to the word "exclusionary".

I simply pointed out what your post was IMHO.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327005#Comment_118327005

"Exclusionary nationalist" is a descriptor similar to "partitionist" and "belligerent unionist" which are common enough around here.

If you think exclusionary nationalist is a pejorative label, then stop posting opinions that are exclusionary nationalist in content.

eire4 · 15-12-2021 7:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327081#Comment_118327081

Well as I said:

You start out by saying I am entitled to my opinion. In this case that the name of Ireland/Eire as fine as is and then you turn around and say my opinion is an "exclusionary nationalist approach". So apparently even though I am entitled to my own opinion it is not acceptable hence the pejorative. I would posit your pejorative towards my contention that Ireland/Eire as the country's name is fine as is is in fact projection on your part at least when it comes to the word "exclusionary".

I am again simply pointing out what your post was IMHO. Now it seems your going a step further and saying I should only post opinions that you do not find in your opinion to be pejorative. In this case you say you find my contention that the name of Ireland/Eire is fine as is for a reunified Ireland is pejorative and as such because of your opinion that I should not post this ergo I am not entitled to express my opinion.

Again I would very much say some projection on your part there especially with the word "exclusionary".

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326175#Comment_118326175

Why aren't you taking a UI seriously may I ask if pie in the sky fringe ideas are worthy of more attention?

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326631#Comment_118326631

Please explain how "Ireland" is exclusionary?

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327081#Comment_118327081

Please define "exclusionary nationalist"?

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327171#Comment_118327171

You are not understanding me. You are perfectly free to post any opinion you like. If I deem that opinion to be exclusionary nationalist, I am entitled to voice that opinion. If you get upset at my reasonable opinion, and don't want to be called exclusionary nationalist, you can choose not to post that opinion.

The point is, feel free to post any opinion you like, but others are also free to tell you what they think of your opinion. That doesn't stop you or prevent you from posting it.

blanch152 · 15-12-2021 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327209#Comment_118327209

Examples of exclusionary nationalists would be Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Sinn Fein etc.

They define their nationalism in a narrow way that is exclusionary and offensive to others.

eire4 · 15-12-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327217#Comment_118327217

Brilliant and credit where its due more classic trolling there. Really gave me a good laugh.

As I said:

You start out by saying I am entitled to my opinion. In this case that the name of Ireland/Eire as fine as is and then you turn around and say my opinion is an "exclusionary nationalist approach". So apparently even though I am entitled to my own opinion it is not acceptable hence the pejorative. I would posit your pejorative towards my contention that Ireland/Eire as the country's name is fine as is is in fact projection on your part at least when it comes to the word "exclusionary".

I am again simply pointing out what your post was IMHO.

BonnieSituation · 15-12-2021 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327224#Comment_118327224

You accused posters of being "exclusionary Nationalists" though...you sure about that? Care to explain who and how they are so?

Junkyard Tom · 15-12-2021 8:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324776#Comment_118324776

I would also ask Nationalists to remember that btw - NI Unionists are merely continuing what has been passed down to them through generations

Absolutely. I think a large aspect of constructing a United people in Ireland will be giving each other a break on our respective histories. We cannot change the past but we can certainly shape the future together.

FrancieBrady · 15-12-2021 8:46pm

When you are having to come up with stratagem after stratagem to deny one particular aspiration (that has already been democratically decided upon) then it is you who are being 'exclusionary' blanch.

All you are doing on this thread is desperately trying to find veto's for unionist and partitionist aspirations.

Brucie Bonus · 15-12-2021 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326175#Comment_118326175

No need. Those interested in it can put it forward. Those seeking a UI don't need to. People know what they want and vote accordingly.

You are attempting to vilify people for wanting a UI. Suggesting they need near a full majority and be open to not really wanting a UI. You don't make the same conclusions about any other view. Its just the UI you have a problem with.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327473#Comment_118327473

Not going there and falling into that trap. I would say that certain posts have displayed an exclusionary nationalist ideology or worldview and leave it at that. And, before you ask, not going to go back and resurrect examples.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327635#Comment_118327635

Those seeking a UI are speaking to a diminishing minority.

Not villifying them for seeking that, more pity I suppose.

Those who seek change have to justify it, they also have to be open to critical examination of their proposal and its possibility of success.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327535#Comment_118327535

Not at all, a united Ireland as you envisage it will never happen. All I am doing is putting forward alternatives that might work.

Harryd225 · 16-12-2021 12:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118287723#Comment_118287723

Not true, Britain threatened ''immediate and terrible war'' if the Irish didn't go along with the treaty so anyone advocating against the treaty was the equivalent of invading the North by fighting against British rule in it's entirety.

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328768#Comment_118328768

Not going there?

You made the accusations. The onus is on you to back them up or retract them.

You're not very good at this debate/discussion game are you?

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328780#Comment_118328780

Those seeking a Federal state or re-joining the UK are speaking to a non-existent minority [sic].

Why should we entertain anything you say on that basis?

FrancieBrady · 16-12-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328806#Comment_118328806

You just 'excluded' me there totally unaware of yourself. 😁

All you are doing is voiding/excluding the aspirations of your boogeymen and women.

My 'vision' includes everyone who wants to be a democrat living on this island and also includes those whom I oppose ideologically. I have adhered to the terms of the GFA like many in the north and expect those who voted for it to do the same.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:37am

n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328852#Comment_118328852

Never said I was seeking a federal state or re-joining the UK. I am happy with the status quo.

However, those of you in the diminishing minority in the North would be much better off designing a more inclusive united Ireland if you have any hope of succeeding. The timeframe is diminishing though, another couple of generations and nobody will be looking for a united Ireland.

BonnieSituation · 16-12-2021 12:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328896#Comment_118328896

Never said I was seeking a federal state or re-joining the UK. I am happy with the status quo.

You're exhausting.

Are you suggesting that we should take advice from you about inclusiveness?

---

Let me know when you find those examples of posts that I requested. Cheers.

Brucie Bonus · 16-12-2021 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328780#Comment_118328780

Its obvious you only have a problem with anyone seeking a UI.

You want those people to be open to changing from a UI to some as yet unspecified ideas for a third option. You've gone so far as to claim you "feel pity". Seems to me you are more worried.

People want what they want. They might not get it. Thats democracy.

Its like people going to vote for FG in a general election and you telling them to think about voting for Renua because FG aren't looking like winners. Nonsense.

16-12-2021 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118326631#Comment_118326631

There will be compromise, but not in something as fundamental as name and (imo) flag. The simple example I always think of is the rule that primary (I think) school teachers need to have a qualification in Irish. Practically, in a UI that is going to have to be removed / postponed / whatever because you're going to have thousands of teachers in what is now NI that cannot legally teach. There will be other scenarios like that which will require compromise from Ireland to accommodate us on practical grounds that we will arrive at and deal with one by one.

Your view that the name of the country might need to change is a really good indication of why detail cannot be worked out before a referendum, because the process would include everything and would literally be neverending.

16-12-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118327217#Comment_118327217

"The point is, feel free to post any opinion you like"

Aye, up to a point, but you need to have a bit of sense along with it. For example if I go on a board and say I really enjoyed black ink spaghetti you can't just comment a reply that I'm racist. Your views need to be grounded in some sort of logic and basic sense.

blanch152 · 16-12-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330196#Comment_118330196

How could I have a problem with anyone seeking a UI, when it is something I would want in the longer term? It would mean I had a problem with myself.

I am happy enough with the status quo, but if the communities up North can show that they can reject the sectarian extremism of the DUP and SF, and we can move to a united Ireland where Britishness and Northern Irishness get the respect and acknowledgement they deserve, then who wouldn't be happy with that?

The type of united Ireland that you seek doesn't have that, and doesn't have a chance of succeeding, based as it is on a philosophy of exclusionary nationalism. If we ever get a united Ireland, it will be a lot closer to the type of united Ireland that I have talked about. It is a pity I am unlikely to be around to say I told you so.

BluePlanet · 16-12-2021 12:53pm

A big problem with blanch's suggestion of a Federated Ireland, Joint Sovereignty or any other 3rd option is that it's not part of the GFA.

The GFA specifically refers to a United Ireland, and that is what the referendum will be about.

Blanch doesn't have a constitutional path to a 3rd option, which means his view point is outside the GFA.

Brucie Bonus · 16-12-2021 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330273#Comment_118330273

You claim to want it but also want to change how we get a UI and what it might mean. You are consistently highly critical of people seeking a UI, which is fine, but at least own it.

I am happy enough with the status quo.

I mean come on.

You can respect and acknowledge other nations and their citizenry in your country. We all do it all the time.

Why people want or don't want a UI is not for you to judge on behalf of everyone seeking a UI.

Voting for party A over party B is exclusionary going by your speak. You only use that argument when speaking about a UI not those seeking to keep things as is or any of your third options.

A UI will be a country called Ireland with all its provinces intact. No apologies and no buts.

Just Some Young Lad · 16-12-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118328768#Comment_118328768

Just because you feel like a post was from an exclusionary nationalist ideology or worldview does not mean that the person is an exclusionary nationalist. In school I spoke French, but I am not French?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion. Knowing when you can do something and when you should do something is the difference between being smart and being wise...

United Ireland Poll - please vote

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