tefl or tesol in china

Mr. Loverman · 21-12-2012 5:38am

China really is a big step down. You're going to be shocked...

Beijing has a better nightlife, but Shanghai is probably the nicest city in China apart from Hong Kong and Macau. Shanghai actually is quite nice.

Beijing is poor and a little backwards (it's where all the uneducated farmers types go to find work -- sorry if that sounds bad) so it presents challenges which aren't as common in Shanghai. But it is interesting and a total mind f*ck. Be aware many expats cannot handle Beijing. Most just complain about the place.

If I were you I'd pick Shanghai. More English speakers, more European (parts feel unbelievably European), and you can have the full blown China experience if you want.

Both cities can be as cheap or as expensive as you want. I live a complete western lifestyle in Beijing so I spend a lot.

Lanaier · 29-12-2012 12:36pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If I were you I'd pick Shanghai. More English speakers, more European (parts feel unbelievably European),

I hate to be "that guy" but if those are good points about a city in Asia then why not just go to Europe?

Also, if my memory serves 12k was definitely above average for someone starting in Beijing with no prior experience.

Maybe times have changed.

Mr. Loverman · 29-12-2012 1:59pm

I know what you're saying about Shanghai having a European vibe, but in reality most people come to Asia all excited thinking they're going to live an Asian lifestyle, but after a while they realise they'd rather have at most a part-time Asian lifestyle. Having Western comforts definitely makes emigration easier.

Even though Shanghai has lots of European architecture and shops, you are still in China.

Lots of people start on less than 12k in Beijing, but that's because they are underselling themselves. Everyone I know who demanded more than 12k got it. Chinese school cannot get English teachers. My friend asked for 15k and got it. No prior experience!

Oranage2 · 24-02-2013 1:29pm

Does any one know anything about DD Dragon English School in Hangzhou City, also whats the city like?

Oranage2 · 26-02-2013 1:13pm

Also what type of questions do they ask you in a skype interview.

Mr. Loverman · 26-02-2013 2:27pm

Hangzhou is nice by Chinese standards. One of the nicer places in the country.

You already meet the requirements for a job: white, native English speaker, and presumably you have a degree.

The want to be sure you will commit, will stay in China, have no bad habits (tell them you don't drink!)... basically you have the job unless you come across as a total freak.

How package are they offering?

Oranage2 · 27-02-2013 7:29am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Hangzhou is nice by Chinese standards. One of the nicer places in the country.

You already meet the requirements for a job: white, native English speaker, and presumably you have a degree.

The want to be sure you will commit, will stay in China, have no bad habits (tell them you don't drink!)... basically you have the job unless you come across as a total freak.

How package are they offering?

Cheers for that man.

The details of our School are listed below:

1.The students ages range from about 3-14.
2.Every class has a maximum of 15 students.
3.You only teach 25hours a week
4.We offer a free furnished single apartment. （The apartment includes: a bedroom, a living room, a bathroom , a Kitchen, a microwave, a refrigerator ,some furniture etc. Attached is a sample of the apartment.)
5.All curricula and teaching materials are provided
6.We will apply for your working visa etc.

All positions at DD Dragon include:

1. a salary of RMB9,000 per month
2. overtime pay for teaching more than 25 hours per week
3. free apartment
4. one week of paid vacation
5. a contract completion bonus
6. one year contract

What you think of that?

Mr. Loverman · 27-02-2013 1:12pm

Excluding the apartment you would get about double that in Beijing.

Hangzhou is not a cheap city (it's where rich Chinese party) so the salary is a little low perhaps... but it's not a terrible deal at all.

Can they actually get you a work visa? Or is it a business visa?

Oranage2 · 27-02-2013 1:55pm

its says business visa in the contract. what's the difference between them.

Mr. Loverman · 02-03-2013 5:52pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

its says business visa in the contract. what's the difference between them.

This means the company aren't legally allowed hire foreigners, so you would be working there illegally.

If the police raided the school, you could get in trouble.

Lots of people teach English using business visas and have no problems (because they've never been caught), but you need to be aware you are working using a dodgy visa.

Oranage2 · 03-03-2013 11:42am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

This means the company aren't legally allowed hire foreigners, so you would be working there illegally.

If the police raided the school, you could get in trouble.

Lots of people teach English using business visas and have no problems (because they've never been caught), but you need to be aware you are working using a dodgy visa.

From what I Googled they seem a little cowboy. I'll see how the interview goes and play it by ear.

Mr. Loverman · 03-03-2013 12:11pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

From what I Googled they seem a little cowboy. I'll see how the interview goes and play it by ear.

Once you have a business visa and are in China, it's very easy to change jobs. But be aware it is very difficult to change a business visa to a work permit. You would be better off working using a tourist visa as these can be changed into work permits.

If I were you I would tell them you don't want the apartment. This means you will get a higher wage and can leave the job without the risk of becoming homeless. You can stay in a hostel for the first week or two when you arrive while you look for accommodation. I recommend you use couchsurfing.org to meet people who can help you with this.

Oranage2 · 03-03-2013 12:43pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Once you have a business visa and are in China, it's very easy to change jobs. But be aware it is very difficult to change a business visa to a work permit. You would be better off working using a tourist visa as these can be changed into work permits.

If I were you I would tell them you don't want the apartment. This means you will get a higher wage and can leave the job without the risk of becoming homeless. You can stay in a hostel for the first week or two when you arrive while you look for accommodation. I recommend you use couchsurfing.org to meet people who can help you with this.

cool I'll try push for more money alright. how serious do they take breaking a contract?

Mr. Loverman · 03-03-2013 12:51pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

cool I'll try push for more money alright. how serious do they take breaking a contract?

The fact that you are just using a business visa (no experts certificate required, no degree required, no residency permit, etc.) means you can just walk. Their only punishment would be withholding wages.

They will probably do something sneaky like withhold half of your first months wage or something as a deposit you get back at the end of your contract.

Why don't you just come to China on a tourist visa and get a job here?

Oranage2 · 03-03-2013 1:21pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The fact that you are just using a business visa (no experts certificate required, no degree required, no residency permit, etc.) means you can just walk. Their only punishment would be withholding wages.

They will probably do something sneaky like withhold half of your first months wage or something as a deposit you get back at the end of your contract.

Why don't you just come to China on a tourist visa and get a job here?

Yeah that's what Im planning, just I wanted to sus it out a bit, I'm flying to Hong Kong Tuesday.

how long a tourist visa can I get for China and how long does it take to get one from Hong Kong if you know. also what city is best to look for, after a bit of research I think shanghai probably is what looks best, any suggestions yourself?

Mr. Loverman · 03-03-2013 2:11pm

You are not guaranteed to get a tourist visa in HK! I know of people who have been refused a visa recently, although you can pay an agency (shady...) to get you one, but it is expensive.

You can get a job anywhere, so just pick a city you like the sounds of...

Oranage2 · 04-03-2013 8:18am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You are not guaranteed to get a tourist visa in HK! I know of people who have been refused a visa recently, although you can pay an agency (shady...) to get you one, but it is expensive.

You can get a job anywhere, so just pick a city you like the sounds of...

Oh I didnt know that but I did get a chinese visa in Hong kong about ten years ago so not sure if that makes a difference.

Whats the best thing to do for finding a job. Just look online or the local paper listings?

Also how expensive is china compared to other places in say south east asia like thailand or vietnam?

Mr. Loverman · 04-03-2013 1:31pm

Regarding the visa, you'll be fine. Worst case scenario you pay a dodgy agency...

There are jobs everywhere. Use the local expat websites (e.g. thebeijinger.com) or dave's ESL cafe, etc.

China is quite expensive compared to Vietnam etc., but it depends entirely on your lifestyle. I live nearly 100% western... same prices as Ireland. Maybe more expensive actually...

Oranage2 · 11-03-2013 1:31pm

ha yeah, looking for accomadation in shenzhen and its not cheap alright, got my visa so gonna head there tomorrow or the next day, cheers man for all the help

Draper666 · 05-04-2013 7:42am

Was thinking of heading over to Yangshuo in South meself to learn here http://www.omeida.com.cn/Meals/ and get a job I was in China a while back and have a few mates from what I have seen its pretty easy to get business visas and look for work and that but some people say its really strict . Any ideas on Yangshuo?

Podgerz · 13-04-2013 3:56pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

Cheers for that man.

The details of our School are listed below:

1.The students ages range from about 3-14.
2.Every class has a maximum of 15 students.
3.You only teach 25hours a week
4.We offer a free furnished single apartment. （The apartment includes: a bedroom, a living room, a bathroom , a Kitchen, a microwave, a refrigerator ,some furniture etc. Attached is a sample of the apartment.)
5.All curricula and teaching materials are provided
6.We will apply for your working visa etc.

All positions at DD Dragon include:

1. a salary of RMB9,000 per month
2. overtime pay for teaching more than 25 hours per week
3. free apartment
4. one week of paid vacation
5. a contract completion bonus
6. one year contract

What you think of that?

I was also looking at this position, is there many Irish in the area?

Oranage2 · 14-04-2013 9:46pm

Podgerz wrote: »

I was also looking at this position, is there many Irish in the area?

I took a different job in the end.

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:15am

Draper666 wrote: »

Was thinking of heading over to Yangshuo in South meself to learn here http://www.omeida.com.cn/Meals/ and get a job I was in China a while back and have a few mates from what I have seen its pretty easy to get business visas and look for work and that but some people say its really strict . Any ideas on Yangshuo?

Hi Draper,

You want to earn and learn in China? If that is the case it is not allowed.

You can study with an x visa or work with a z visa.

SS

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:20am

do not come to china to work on a business visa or f visa. The school must be able to organise a z visa or go elsewhere . you will get deported.

SS

9 k is too low for Hangzhou when they are so desperate for white native english speakers with ba's . there are indian, spanish. french and german nationals teaching english in hangzhou the schools are that desperate.

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:24am

Oranage2 wrote: »

Cheers for that man.

The details of our School are listed below:

1.The students ages range from about 3-14.
2.Every class has a maximum of 15 students.
3.You only teach 25hours a week
4.We offer a free furnished single apartment. （The apartment includes: a bedroom, a living room, a bathroom , a Kitchen, a microwave, a refrigerator ,some furniture etc. Attached is a sample of the apartment.)
5.All curricula and teaching materials are provided
6.We will apply for your working visa etc.

All positions at DD Dragon include:

1. a salary of RMB9,000 per month
2. overtime pay for teaching more than 25 hours per week
3. free apartment
4. one week of paid vacation
5. a contract completion bonus
6. one year contract

What you think of that?

25 hours or units a week (usually 40 minutes) does this include office hours?

do not teach in a school on an f visa , if you get caught you will be deported and fined. there have been 3 cases this month in around hangzhou this month.

ss

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:37am

salary way too low

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:43am

go to costa unlike starbucks at least they pay their share of tax without going through the morally corrupt tax avoidance.

simonsez · 13-05-2013 9:58am

Funglegunk wrote: »

Really? Most schools I know strictly only hire native English speakers, giving preference to Canadians and Americans (one Irish lad was told to tell the parents of the kids that he was Canadian).

I agree with funglegunk's observation.
North American White Male/Female graduates with celta/tesol are usually the holy grail for teaching English in schools in China. Then UK passport holders.
We can only base this on extensive research we carried out over a five year period with one of the top insititutes of education in Shanghai . Mind you the research was only carried out in 200 schools based in Chengdu, Xi'an Hangzhou, Fuyang (Anhui), Changchun and Shanghai. How representative is this research of all mainland China, remains to be seen. More conclusive research will be carried out in due course.

SS

ss:)

Oranage2 · 13-05-2013 12:40pm

simonsez wrote: »

25 hours or units a week (usually 40 minutes) does this include office hours?

do not teach in a school on an f visa , if you get caught you will be deported and fined. there have been 3 cases this month in around hangzhou this month.

ss

Cheers for the info, I took a different job in the end though.

Tramps Like Us · 20-08-2013 1:04am

What exactly are "office hours"? What do you do?

Mr. Loverman · 20-08-2013 7:03am

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

What exactly are "office hours"? What do you do?

Frequently it means lesson planning, correcting homework.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 9:13am

warofthebutton wrote: »

I'm thinking of going to China to do the whole teaching thing, I already have my TEFL course in the bag. I was wondering if any1 here has had any experience with the English First company? they seem to have 90% of the job postings..
Im looking at Dalian and Hangzhou,
Any help would be greatly appreciated you heroes

Oh god, EF...

I worked for those clowns for a year; absolute bedlam, poorly organised, poor salary, antisocial working days, sometimes poor conditions in the schools, erratic training, absolutely no disciplining the children, moving up is more 'who you know' than 'what you know'.

If you really, really wanted to cut your teeth at the teaching racket in China, you could try them, but you'd be a better man than me if you stayed more than a year.

Avoid then, try Wall Street, Shane English, Web English instead. Those others have their negatives, too, but not nearly as bad at English First.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 9:15am

Oranage2 wrote: »

All positions at DD Dragon include:

1. a salary of RMB9,000 per month
2. overtime pay for teaching more than 25 hours per week
3. free apartment
4. one week of paid vacation
5. a contract completion bonus
6. one year contract

What you think of that?

Poor salary, especially after it's taxed.
Nobody ever really gets paid overtime. The claim forms can be off-putting.
One week out of one year isn't much, to be honest.

R.D. aka MR.D · 29-08-2013 7:28am

Has anyone who has applied lately and gone over got any idea how long the whole process takes?

Do I have to visit the Chinese embassy in Dublin?

I'm in the USA right now and would only like to visit home for 2 weeks before heading to China ideally. Does this seem realistic?

Lanaier · 29-08-2013 11:48am

Just wanted to chime in and say that even as someone who is not an English Teacher I have heard many horror stories about English First.

Avoid if possible.

Finding a school with interests in the students rather than just their parents money will be a chore if I recall.

Good luck!

Caonima · 29-08-2013 12:56pm

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Has anyone who has applied lately and gone over got any idea how long the whole process takes?

Do I have to visit the Chinese embassy in Dublin?

I'm in the USA right now and would only like to visit home for 2 weeks before heading to China ideally. Does this seem realistic?

Yeah, you'll need to make a brief visit to the Chinese embassy to arrange a temporary visa before you go over. Pretty quick and painless; a friend just went there last week, only took him a week or so. You might want to get the ball rolling before you fly home, though.

R.D. aka MR.D · 17-09-2013 9:38pm

Has anyone got any advice on salary negotiations?

My boyfriend and I got offered a job but we would really like 1000rmb more a month. The school said explicitly that the salary was non-negotiable.

From being in Korea, I know that sometimes what is said isn't always to be taken as the last word.

Do you think this is similar in China?

Any idea on how to proceed would be really appreciated!

Mr. Loverman · 18-09-2013 2:33am

What is the salary?
Which city?
How many hours a week?
What type of teaching?
What is your experience?
What is your education?

We need more details to give proper advice.

R.D. aka MR.D · 18-09-2013 3:09am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What is the salary?
Which city?
How many hours a week?
What type of teaching?
What is your experience?
What is your education?

We need more details to give proper advice.

I was asking more about the typical Chinese business attitude as I am unfamiliar with it. The school has said explicitly that the salary is non negotiable.
If it was an Irish company then I would take that as the case but if it was Korea, for example, then I would know it was perfectly acceptable to ask for more money despite them saying it was 'non-negotiable'.

But the offer is:

10000RMB per month + a housing allowance
35hours total- 25 teaching
Hangzhou
Teaching kids

I have experience and a CELTA.

There are some issues with the contract that aren't deal breakers but an extra 1000RMB a month would make life a little easier.

Any advice is appreciated.

Mr. Loverman · 18-09-2013 1:43pm

They tried that "non-negotiable" thing in my current job. I told them no problem, I don't want the job. They backed down and I got everything I want.

Remember as an English teacher YOU have all the power. Schools cannot get staff.

Caonima · 28-09-2013 8:22am

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

I have experience and a CELTA.

There are some issues with the contract that aren't deal breakers but an extra 1000RMB a month would make life a little easier.

Any advice is appreciated.

CELTA and experience.... then 10,000 is waaaaaaay too low for you.

Plus, I've never had a good experience with those non-negotiable salary places; usually a bit low-rent and/or shady.

There's loads of great places to work in Hangzhou - keep looking. Failing that, across the road to Shanghai.

ArphaRima · 28-09-2013 3:18pm

I want to put salary negotiations in China into perspective.

They are at the tail end (IMHO) of a boom the likes of which mankind has never seen. They are desperate for QUALIFIED applicants and education is supremely important. In a country with no pensions, the (only) child is their main pension/insurance policy.
Salary inflation is out of control by all accounts. You will be doing yourself a disservice if you don't haggle and indeed haggle hard.

I've just come out of contract renewal negotiations in Shanghai where we walked out 4 times over a number of weeks. we secured a 20% increase and extra month a year paid leave from what was strictly "non-negotiable". Be genuinely prepared to walk.

Good luck.

R.D. aka MR.D · 28-09-2013 8:38pm

We ended up negotiating and getting more. We were applying as a couple and there are some factors that mean that we wanted to be there as soon as possible so we probably could have held out for more but time is of the essence.

So hopefully, I'll be in Hangzhou by November. It's hard to know how long the visa process will take. The school is going to get the invitation documents but warned us it will be delayed because of the holiday.

ArphaRima · 29-09-2013 8:57am

Congrats on the job.
Well given Caonima (nice nick..) said it was pretty low I would start looking immediately for a new job and the salary levels available elsewhere.

Contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on in China(for either party), and everyone knows it. You can always demand your worth when you are settled, but again have a plan B and be willing to do it.

Caonima · 01-10-2013 6:13pm

fluffer wrote: »

... I would start looking immediately for a new job and the salary levels available elsewhere.....

Best advice on this thread so far.

The whole Hangzhou, Shanghai, Suzhou, Nanjing area is a hotbed for good jobs, so I'm pretty sure that poster will land on her feet. 10,000 for someone with a CELTA is having a laugh, to be honest. She should be getting 50% more than that, at least. Sounds like the school just want butts on seats, for want of a better term.

And you're right about the salary negotiations. Something that always puts it into perspective for me is how ayis (the housecleaners) negotiate a higher salary or a pay increase - they threaten to quit.

04-10-2013 10:01am

simonsez wrote: »

I agree with funglegunk's observation.
North American White Male/Female graduates with celta/tesol are usually the holy grail for teaching English in schools in China. Then UK passport holders.
We can only base this on extensive research we carried out over a five year period with one of the top insititutes of education in Shanghai . Mind you the research was only carried out in 200 schools based in Chengdu, Xi'an Hangzhou, Fuyang (Anhui), Changchun and Shanghai. How representative is this research of all mainland China, remains to be seen. More conclusive research will be carried out in due course.

SS
ss:)

I would love to see this extensive research as I've been working in Xian for the last 4.5 years... There are way too many statements floating around about teaching in China based on "extensive research"...

04-10-2013 10:03am

If anyone needs work in Xian, you can pm me. I know a rather good school looking for FTs, and best of all, no children. Haha.

ArphaRima · 04-10-2013 11:53am

Something that always puts it into perspective for me is how ayis (the housecleaners) negotiate a higher salary or a pay increase - they threaten to quit.

I had that. Often they just don't come back from national holidays, but mine at least asked for a 35% pay increase or she'd quit at the end of the week.

I offered 15%, with a pay review in a year. She declined so I took the apartment key from her immediately (security reasons) paid her until the end of the week and then got a new ayi in at the (laowai)market rate, plus 15%.

Her face was priceless. She thought she had another weak laowai. I had the new ayi in the next day and she knows what happened to the last one!

R.D. aka MR.D · 12-11-2013 5:47pm

Has anyone who has gotten there z visa from the embassy in dublin recently been asked for their health check?

I have mine but i forgot the original in the USA because i thought i wouldn't need it. I'm just getting a bit worried.

Ahhhhh its grand · 17-11-2013 5:10am

Don't worry, you won't be asked for it. I haven't been to the Dublin embassy in 18 months, but 2 friends of mine came over into China in August and were worried about the same thing. They left it late and didn't have the money or time to get a health check in Dublin. Fact is, they didn't need it. And neither did I, you get one here. To put your mind at ease just ring the embassy and ask them exactly what you need to bring to apply for a Z visa. That's what I did. I doubt it's changed it the last couple of months.

For the embassy you need your passport, the application forms, and invitation letter and a work permit...as far as I remember. Bring them in, they will then tell you to come back on a certain day to collect your passport with your visa. When you collect it you have to bring a postal order for the cost of the visa, which is about 40/50 euro.

tefl or tesol in china

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