Energy infrastructure

gjim · 04-10-2020 4:24pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

It won't be low cost forever, remember the treasury are losing a huge amount of tax revenue from declining petrol and diesel use, no government can take that lying down. if EV uptake is as fast as hoped we can expect to see taxes levied on night-time charging or maybe a tax paid per km driven. At the end of the day you'll be on the hook in some way, no such thing as a free lunch.

Taxes on petrol and diesel account for less than 3% of the government budget. It would only require a fairly insignificant bump in taxes elsewhere to make up the loss. In the context of making the country energy independent, carbon free, emissions free and providing almost zero energy cost general transportation, it would be an absolute bargain.

Markcheese · 04-10-2020 10:24pm

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese · 04-10-2020 10:25pm

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese · 04-10-2020 10:25pm

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese · 04-10-2020 10:28pm

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese · 04-10-2020 10:28pm

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

afatbollix · 04-10-2020 11:12pm

The UK went to value of the car at purchase point a couple of years ago for setting the tax level.

That will be what will happen I'd say.

Markcheese · 05-10-2020 12:13am

afatbollix wrote: »

The UK went to value of the car at purchase point a couple of years ago for setting the tax level.

That will be what will happen I'd say.

Fairly equitable really ,
In the uk the road tax drops to a flat rate after so many years of a vehicles life , which keeps up the second hand value ( and keeps vehicles maintained and not scrapped ...)
Anyone want to hazzard a guess as to what the annual road tax would be on a fairly standard id3 / leaf priced vehicle , if you had to include the taxes and excuse that would have been paid had it been an ICE vehicle ...

tom1ie · 06-10-2020 11:06am

Sam Russell wrote: »

If battery powered cars become ubiquitous, those very batteries could be used as backup storage for the grid. We need a feed-in tariff so that microgenerators can be harnessed by the grid and local storage can also take pressure off the grid when needed. Using 20% to 30% of the battery stored energy will make little difference to the owner in most cases, but cumulatively would be huge for the network in times of shortage when the wind does not blow.

The feed-in tariff would need to be highly intelligent in order to work. This would allow domestic users to allow depletion of their stored energy at a premium price, and replenished at a lower price. [I would anticipate that the difference in price would be less than 10% to 15% but would be an attractive proposition to many by reducing the energy bill].

Yep, they could be the alternative to pumped storage eg turlough hill.

The only problem is the existing distribution network may struggle to physically carry the ampage required to charge all the cars at night.
Also if the cars are charged at night, that takes care of the excess electricity that is being created, the person that owns the car then gets up and drives to work and back thus using the majority of the excess electricity that was created the previous night.
When they get home at 6 they turn on the cooker, shower, heating, lights and plug in the car (to feed back into the grid whatever they haven’t used), would the amount in the evs battery even cover the amount they are using in the house?
If not the idea wouldn’t work as the ev would have to be a net exporter at peak demand to cover the overall need.

riddlinrussell · 06-10-2020 11:30am

tom1ie wrote: »

Yep, they could be the alternative to pumped storage eg turlough hill.

The only problem is the existing distribution network may struggle to physically carry the ampage required to charge all the cars at night.
Also if the cars are charged at night, that takes care of the excess electricity that is being created, the person that owns the car then gets up and drives to work and back thus using the majority of the excess electricity that was created the previous night.
When they get home at 6 they turn on the cooker, shower, heating, lights and plug in the car (to feed back into the grid whatever they haven’t used), would the amount in the evs battery even cover the amount they are using in the house?
If not the idea wouldn’t work as the ev would have to be a net exporter at peak demand to cover the overall need.

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

Sam Russell · 06-10-2020 11:52am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

In this day and age, having smart technology is not really a problem.

There is the day to day cycle of energy demand and supply where, as you say, charge EV overnight, dive to work, charge at work, drive home, use excess charge to help match peak, and so on.

Then there is the weather variation where the renewables do not arrive because there is a high pressure zone over Ireland just sitting there for days. Then if that happens in November, we have below zero temperatures, and no wind.

Obviously, these types of scenarios need to be catered for, but EV batteries are a significant resource that should be built into the grid, but a feed in tariff needs to be applied, and a very intelligent tariff that causes users to modify their behaviour in a significant way to even out supply and demand.

Now that requires not just smart meters but smart users.

riddlinrussell · 06-10-2020 12:05pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In this day and age, having smart technology is not really a problem.

There is the day to day cycle of energy demand and supply where, as you say, charge EV overnight, dive to work, charge at work, drive home, use excess charge to help match peak, and so on.

Then there is the weather variation where the renewables do not arrive because there is a high pressure zone over Ireland just sitting there for days. Then if that happens in November, we have below zero temperatures, and no wind.

Obviously, these types of scenarios need to be catered for, but EV batteries are a significant resource that should be built into the grid, but a feed in tariff needs to be applied, and a very intelligent tariff that causes users to modify their behaviour in a significant way to even out supply and demand.

Now that requires not just smart meters but smart users.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the technology didn't exist, more that it needs to be something ESB are looking into very seriously. Smart Users aren't 'strictly' required, the system just needs to be good at advertising when they can save/make the most money (when their battery is most useful to the grid)

Sam Russell · 06-10-2020 12:08pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the technology didn't exist, more that it needs to be something ESB are looking into very seriously. Smart Users aren't 'strictly' required, the system just needs to be good at advertising when they can save/make the most money (when their battery is most useful to the grid)

That is where the smart user comes in.

Most users do not switch suppliers to avail of lower prices, so now you expect the same users to modify their behaviour to save money.

riddlinrussell · 06-10-2020 12:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is where the smart user comes in.

Most users do not switch suppliers to avail of lower prices, so now you expect the same users to modify their behaviour to save money.

I'm not sure if the development of smart energy users strictly fits the definition of Infrastructure... I'm hoping education would be the fix there...

Sam Russell · 06-10-2020 12:16pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I'm not sure if the development of smart energy users strictly fits the definition of Infrastructure... I'm hoping education would be the fix there...

I would think it is equivalent to water conservation by users. Now that definitely affects infrastructure.

cgcsb · 06-10-2020 6:05pm

A switch to combining gas and better storage in one plant could be another carbon saving. The ramp up time of gas could be covered by batteries.

tom1ie · 06-10-2020 7:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A switch to combining gas and better storage in one plant could be another carbon saving. The ramp up time of gas could be covered by batteries.

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

cgcsb · 06-10-2020 7:39pm

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable

Well..Ok. I mean nobody is talking about 100% renewable electricity. At the minute we have a lofty goal of 70% by 2030.

Sam Russell · 06-10-2020 7:42pm

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

There is the proposed interconnector to France. That would be a nuclear source for the most part.

Pete_Cavan · 06-10-2020 7:48pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

How would charging at work work? Your employer would need to deduct the cost of electricity used from your wages or it is a BIK and subject to tax.

A similar scenario is that people store what they generate and use it themselves as and when they need it. PV and battery means people would charge a battery during the day and use it to charge their EV at night. There is already a grant for domestic batteries. With widespread EVs, there would likely still be plenty of demand for power from the grid over night. Its easier than a constantly changing due to multiple factors FIT, the more successful it is it could undermine commercial producers and make electricity more expensive. I can't see how it would be economical for anyone but the customer to allow people buy electricity cheap at night and have them selling into the grid for more during the day. How reliable would micro producers be and how fast would they react when needed?

tom1ie · 06-10-2020 8:06pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is the proposed interconnector to France. That would be a nuclear source for the most part.

Yeah the Celtic interconnector.
We have uk nuclear getting imported here via the other interconnectors anyway.

medoc · 07-10-2020 1:01pm

Offaly Battery storage plant due to be energised by December.

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/579091/enormous-150m-energy-project-in-offaly-at-an-advanced-stage.html

bk · 07-10-2020 3:03pm

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

There are proposals to use carbon capture storage (CCS) technology to allow gas stations to be continue to be used, but to get to net zero emissions by capturing and storing the released carbon from the plants.

I remain open minded on it, but after the BS of "clean coal" and "clean diesel", I remain sceptical.

bk · 07-10-2020 3:06pm

BTW another very interesting potential storage technology is liquid air storage. They claim that it has capacities and costs in line with pumped hydro, but without the need for specific geography.

tom1ie · 07-10-2020 6:28pm

bk wrote: »

BTW another very interesting potential storage technology is liquid air storage. They claim that it has capacities and costs in line with pumped hydro, but without the need for specific geography.

Never heard of this.
Something along the lines of compressing the air and making it more energy dense (thus converting into liquid) using the excess renewable energy when available, and then the reverse when electricity is needed?

gjim · 07-10-2020 11:18pm

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

It's not really the big problem it seems.

The LCOE measures the full cost of producing electricity - the capital cost, fuel cost, operating/maintenance costs, decommissioning costs, etc.

On this basis wind and solar already beat the traditional generation methods for most places on the planet. Also since renewables are relatively new to the scene and are in a growth phase, it's likely that there are more efficiencies/technical improvement coming down the road while I imagine the mature generation technologies have little room for improvement. The fall in price of PV panels and LI batteries over the last decade is simply incredible.

The important point is that the cost advantages of renewables is significant enough that you can simply over-provision production. For example - again using LCOE - the cheapest on-shore wind is under a third the price of the cheapest nuclear. So even if you have to leave the turbines idle for 65% of the time, you're still ahead over the lifetime of a wind farm vs that of a coal burning or nuclear power station.

But in actually fact you probably won't need to turn off the turbines - if you can even get 1c or 2c per KWh retail for the power it'll make sense to keep them running so the obvious thing would be to charge the national fleet of battery powered vehicles at such times.

So yeah gas will be in the mix for the foreseeable future but its overall contribution to electricity production will become very small. I'd hope for something like under 20%.

Perfection is the enemy of progress as they say. Deciding we have to plan for 100% renewables would be crazy in my opinion when there is a relatively straightforward and economic path to somewhere around 80% renewable. This would still be an amazing achievement given that 95% of the country's electricity was produced by burning oil, gas, coal or peat just 15 years ago.

Sam Russell · 08-10-2020 8:22am

gjim wrote: »

It's not really the big problem it seems.

......
So yeah gas will be in the mix for the foreseeable future but its overall contribution to electricity production will become very small. I'd hope for something like under 20%.

Perfection is the enemy of progress as they say. Deciding we have to plan for 100% renewables would be crazy in my opinion when there is a relatively straightforward and economic path to somewhere around 80% renewable. This would still be an amazing achievement given that 95% of the country's electricity was produced by burning oil, gas, coal or peat just 15 years ago.

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

tom1ie · 08-10-2020 9:07am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

I really do see hydrogen or as (I think it was bk?) said liquid air being the storage future.
Evs are a great idea for storage but you still have to distribute the electricity to the evs via the distribution lv network which may not be able to handle a massive amount of evs charging at the same time.

If the excess electricity generated is kept on the transmission network and stored commercially in the form of hydrogen or liquid air, you get rid of that issue.

bk · 08-10-2020 9:46am

tom1ie wrote: »

Never heard of this.
Something along the lines of compressing the air and making it more energy dense (thus converting into liquid) using the excess renewable energy when available, and then the reverse when electricity is needed?

Yep, pretty much it, interesting video on it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1Nuk3_t_4

gjim · 08-10-2020 11:04am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

I agree on renewable sources of gas but it's not there yet.

Not sure about wave and tide - the idea has been on the go for a century by now and it's still always been just promising.

While it's interesting to hear about future and potential technical/engineering developments in the area, I also worry that such talk creates an impression that we're slightly helpless at the moment until some big technology breakthrough arrives. The opposite is the case - we don't have to wait to build for a carbon-free (or nearly free) energy future.

The tools are already there: develop and over-provision on-shore wind generation. It's unsightly in the countryside but it's the most economic for Ireland. It will mean a big excess of generation capacity but that capacity is not completely wasted if you actively encourage the adoption of BEVs. There may also be a market for excess electricity abroad via interconnectors. Turn off dirty power generation sources as soon as is possible except for combined cycle gas. Ensure a competitive supply of natural gas.

None of this effort will be wasted if there's a big breakthrough in the next decades in grid scale storage or other renewable sources.

gjim · 08-10-2020 11:23am

tom1ie wrote: »

I really do see hydrogen or as (I think it was bk?) said liquid air being the storage future.
Evs are a great idea for storage but you still have to distribute the electricity to the evs via the distribution lv network which may not be able to handle a massive amount of evs charging at the same time.

If the excess electricity generated is kept on the transmission network and stored commercially in the form of hydrogen or liquid air, you get rid of that issue.

Yeah but you'll only be charging your EV during off-peak periods when by definition the transmission network will siting idle.

Agree if we switched 100% to BEVs there's no way the network could handle simultaneous charging. Back-of-fag-packet calculation: peak dispatchable electricity for the island is about 10GW so charging 130GWh worth of batteries (2.7m vehicles with a 50KWh battery each) is not feasible even assuming the network isn't a bottleneck.

But we could certainly cope with having 10% of vehicles BEV in the next 5 or max 10 years and while that is going on the network should be simultaneously improved/developed.

Sam Russell · 08-10-2020 11:33am

tom1ie wrote: »

I really do see hydrogen or as (I think it was bk?) said liquid air being the storage future.

I was talking about hydrogen as a fuel to be used added to natural gas. It could also be used in a fuel cell to generate electricity, though the technology is not there yet.

Evs are a great idea for storage but you still have to distribute the electricity to the evs via the distribution lv network which may not be able to handle a massive amount of evs charging at the same time.

This is where the smart meter comes into its own. Not only should it be able to match supply to demand, it should also be able to balance the grid. A flexible feed in tariff would help by allowing some users to be aggressive in maximising cost savings while others might prefer to be certain in maximising availability.

If the excess electricity generated is kept on the transmission network and stored commercially in the form of hydrogen or liquid air, you get rid of that issue.

It can also be kept in domestic batteries in the form of purpose storage or using the ev batteries.

Think how much telecommunications and computers have advanced in the last 50 years, and the changes that might happen in the next 50 years or even the next twenty years. We will see changes we cannot even imagine now.

tom1ie · 08-10-2020 11:38am

gjim wrote: »

I agree on renewable sources of gas but it's not there yet.

Not sure about wave and tide - the idea has been on the go for a century by now and it's still always been just promising.

While it's interesting to hear about future and potential technical/engineering developments in the area, I also worry that such talk creates an impression that we're slightly helpless at the moment until some big technology breakthrough arrives. The opposite is the case - we don't have to wait to build for a carbon-free (or nearly free) energy future.

The tools are already there: develop and over-provision on-shore wind generation. It's unsightly in the countryside but it's the most economic for Ireland. It will mean a big excess of generation capacity but that capacity is not completely wasted if you actively encourage the adoption of BEVs. There may also be a market for excess electricity abroad via interconnectors. Turn off dirty power generation sources as soon as is possible except for combined cycle gas. Ensure a competitive supply of natural gas.

None of this effort will be wasted if there's a big breakthrough in the next decades in grid scale storage or other renewable sources.

Problem is, when that massive excess of renewables stops (ie wind stops blowing) you need generating plants that can ramp up insanely quickly to cover the demand or you release the energy stored or you use the interconnectors.
We don’t have adequate storage at the moment.
We keep gas generating stations on spinning reserve for this very reason.
The interconnectors are grand as long as there is excess to be got at that particular time from a neighbouring country and as long as they don’t ramp up the price which they’d be entitled to do under supply and demand.

So until we get the storage aspect sorted we are kinda stuck a bit.

bk · 08-10-2020 12:36pm

gjim wrote: »

Agree if we switched 100% to BEVs there's no way the network could handle simultaneous charging. Back-of-fag-packet calculation: peak dispatchable electricity for the island is about 10GW so charging 130GWh worth of batteries (2.7m vehicles with a 50KWh battery each) is not feasible even assuming the network isn't a bottleneck.

Keep in mind that most people would never need to fully charge their battery every night.

On average cars only travel 50km per day in Ireland (2016) *

So on average you are looking at most cars only needing to topup by about 10KWh per night, rather then 50KWh.

Add to that smart meters to help balance that charging out. So you could have one group of cars get their 10KWh between midnight and 2am, the next group between 2am and 4am, etc.

So you'd be more looking at 27GWh spread over 12 hours, so about 2.25GWh used. Relatively doable with even our current capacity.

* Of course there will be outliers like travelling sales people, etc. But from the grid perspective that doesn't really matter as they would be balanced out by cars that might even go without any use some days, or just doing the school run.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was talking about hydrogen as a fuel to be used added to natural gas. It could also be used in a fuel cell to generate electricity, though the technology is not there yet.

If using Hydrogen to generate power for the grid, then you just "burn" it in gas turbines. An advantage that you can re-use the existing gas turbines and also mix hydrogen and natural gas in them at different percentages depending on availability and power demand.

tom1ie · 09-10-2020 5:31pm

bk wrote: »

Keep in mind that most people would never need to fully charge their battery every night.

On average cars only travel 50km per day in Ireland (2016) *

So on average you are looking at most cars only needing to topup by about 10KWh per night, rather then 50KWh.

Add to that smart meters to help balance that charging out. So you could have one group of cars get their 10KWh between midnight and 2am, the next group between 2am and 4am, etc.

So you'd be more looking at 27GWh spread over 12 hours, so about 2.25GWh used. Relatively doable with even our current capacity.

* Of course there will be outliers like travelling sales people, etc. But from the grid perspective that doesn't really matter as they would be balanced out by cars that might even go without any use some days, or just doing the school run.

If using Hydrogen to generate power for the grid, then you just "burn" it in gas turbines. An advantage that you can re-use the existing gas turbines and also mix hydrogen and natural gas in them at different percentages depending on availability and power demand.

I would say the outliers such as sales people wouldn’t be driving evs anyway as the range isn’t there unless your willing to pay 40k plus for a Tesla.

Markcheese · 11-10-2020 9:37am

tom1ie wrote: »

I would say the outliers such as sales people wouldn’t be driving evs anyway as the range isn’t there unless your willing to pay 40k plus for a Tesla.

I'm not sure about that , there's the ioniq and niro ,and the long range leaf , all under 40k ( expensive but less than 40 k ) , and when you add in tiny fuel and maintenance costs and no BIK, I reckon sales reps will probably start heading en mass before the rest of the public do ...

tom1ie · 11-10-2020 10:27am

Markcheese wrote: »

I'm not sure about that , there's the ioniq and niro ,and the long range leaf , all under 40k ( expensive but less than 40 k ) , and when you add in tiny fuel and maintenance costs and no BIK, I reckon sales reps will probably start heading en mass before the rest of the public do ...

All of those cars would only have a range of max 200k in worse case scenario though no? (Winter, 120kph driving etc)

Anyway sorry I’m bringing this off topic I think.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2020 12:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A switch to combining gas and better storage in one plant could be another carbon saving. The ramp up time of gas could be covered by batteries.

Major wear and tear on turbines is stopping and starting and they are very quick to respond when they are already spinning. And yes there's a 10MW battery up north.

Eirgrid Operational Constraints
Page 5 - 2. Operating Reserve Requirements times
5 seconds Primary 15 Seconds Secondary 90 seconds Tertiary 1 5 minutes Tertiary 2 20 minutes.

Batteries would have to compete with the inertia of big spinning turbines. Open Circuit Gas Turbine operate at about 2/3rd's full capacity so they can be ramped up in seconds. Pumped storage in pumping mode can be turned off to shed demand. Interconnectors. And ramping up steam plant.

And for grid stability there's a good few generators that have to be on regionally so there's extra capacity at times of low demand.

Apogee · 04-11-2020 12:33pm

Irish Times wrote:

Belfast is set to receive Ireland’s first hydrogen-powered double-decker buses in coming weeks using fuel coming from wind energy generated in nearby north Antrim. The initiative is the first “green hydrogen” project on the island of Ireland and the first step to decarbonise Northern Ireland’s public transport by 2040, according to Mark Welsh, energy services manager with Energia, which is generating the hydrogen at its wind farm near Ballymena.

Green hydrogen is produced by using renewable electricity to power electrolyser technology that splits the hydrogen from water molecules. Energia’s electrolyser produces hydrogen on location, where it is stored in trailers before being transported to a new refuelling station in Belfast and it will soon fuel buses developed by Wrightbus for Translink, the transport operator in the city.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-first-green-hydrogen-project-to-come-on-stream-in-weeks-1.4399291

tom1ie · 04-11-2020 1:48pm

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-first-green-hydrogen-project-to-come-on-stream-in-weeks-1.4399291

This is great news.
Potentially this hydrogen was manufactured at off peak electricity times when we had an excess of capacity on the grid.
Conceivably the hydrogen could be converted back into electricity to match demand?

Markcheese · 04-11-2020 7:09pm

tom1ie wrote: »

This is great news.
Potentially this hydrogen was manufactured at off peak electricity times when we had an excess of capacity on the grid.
Conceivably the hydrogen could be converted back into electricity to match demand?

Conceivably ... But if you go to the trouble of buying and installing an electrolizer, you'll probably want to run it as much as possible , peak ,off peak ,to match demand .
otherwise,if you want to use off peak power predominantly, you'd have to install 2 or 3 times the capacity , at 2 or 3 times the capital cost ...

gjim · 05-11-2020 8:58am

Talking of novel technologies, there's an interesting alternative to hydrogen which I hadn't heard of before which involves burning iron powder - there's no carbon involved in the process, in fact there's no exhaust gas at all. The burned powder can be regenerated using a process like electrolysis.

Here's a story about a pilot in a Dutch brewery: https://newatlas.com/energy/bavarian-brewery-carbon-free-renewable-iron-fuel/

It suffers the same poor round-trip efficiency as generating hydrogen with electrolysis but has some interesting advantages. It solves the biggest issue with hydrogen - where storage and transport is expensive, potentially dangerous and requires complex engineering. You can move this stuff around in a wheelbarrow. Also it's claimed, it should be relatively easy to retro-fit existing coal burning power stations.

tom1ie · 05-11-2020 12:58pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Conceivably ... But if you go to the trouble of buying and installing an electrolizer, you'll probably want to run it as much as possible , peak ,off peak ,to match demand .
otherwise,if you want to use off peak power predominantly, you'd have to install 2 or 3 times the capacity , at 2 or 3 times the capital cost ...

Well I suppose the question is if we are massively increasing our capacity of renewable energy to get to as close as possible to 100%, there will be a huge amount of time when supply outstrips demand.
Therefore that excess supply has to go somewhere so why not into creating hydrogen that can fuel the hgv fleet or be transformed back into electricity if that need should arise at peak time.

loyatemu · 05-11-2020 1:04pm

it was discussed elsewhere (on the Transport forum in the context of hydrogen powered buses vs battery powered) that converting electricity to Hydrogen is pretty inefficient compared to storing it in batteries - something like 25% efficiency vs 80% for batteries. On that basis it would only make sense to use spare capacity.

tom1ie · 05-11-2020 1:11pm

loyatemu wrote: »

it was discussed elsewhere (on the Transport forum in the context of hydrogen powered buses vs battery powered) that converting electricity to Hydrogen is pretty inefficient compared to storing it in batteries - something like 25% efficiency vs 80% for batteries. On that basis it would only make sense to use spare capacity.

Yes which is what I’m advocating.
Why waste the spare electrons at non peak times, when we can convert them into hydrogen and Power the hgv fleet or convert back to electricity at peak demand.
Although gjim mentions iron powder instead of hydrogen which sounds interesting/safer!

Sam Russell · 05-11-2020 2:09pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Yes which is what I’m advocating.
Why waste the spare electrons at non peak times, when we can convert them into hydrogen and Power the hgv fleet or convert back to electricity at peak demand.
Although gjim mentions iron powder instead of hydrogen which sounds interesting/safer!

Pumped storage is 80% efficient, and rapidly changes from storage to generation. We have a plant that is in operation for nearly 50 years, and has run without any problems. It is high cost to build though.

Batteries have a limited life and would only be good if they can be recycled/regenerated efficiently. At the present time, no one is talking about regenerating batteries.

riddlinrussell · 05-11-2020 2:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Pumped storage is 80% efficient, and rapidly changes from storage to generation. We have a plant that is in operation for nearly 50 years, and has run without any problems. It is high cost to build though.

Batteries have a limited life and would only be good if they can be recycled/regenerated efficiently. At the present time, no one is talking about regenerating batteries.

Also with environmental legislation would be nearly impossible to build another...

magicbastarder · 05-11-2020 2:41pm

how is the hydrogen 'burned' on the bus? fuel cells? i think i read that fuel cells have to operate around 400-500C and are best suited to constant demand scenarios?

riddlinrussell · 05-11-2020 2:49pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

how is the hydrogen 'burned' on the bus? fuel cells? i think i read that fuel cells have to operate around 400-500C and are best suited to constant demand scenarios?

These (according to the Wrightbus literature) are Ballard Fuel Cells, which are PEM Fuel Cells, what that means in terms of operation I don't know, but I would imagine they are well suited to a bus operation, seems to be used by VanHool and a few other manufacturers also

Sam Russell · 05-11-2020 2:56pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Pumped storage is 80% efficient, and rapidly changes from storage to generation. We have a plant that is in operation for nearly 50 years, and has run without any problems. It is high cost to build though.

Batteries have a limited life and would only be good if they can be recycled/regenerated efficiently. At the present time, no one is talking about regenerating batteries.

Also with environmental legislation would be nearly impossible to build another...

I wonder if they used the sea as the lower lake, would they gain from high tide - pump up, and at low tide - generate, thus gaining the difference in potential energy.

I am not sure if there is a suitable granite mountain beside the sea.

Energy infrastructure

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