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Outer City Bypass

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Comments

  • #452
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Redhairedguy wrote: »
    We've fallen into the old, viciously circular trap of car vs. bike debate once more. Unfortunately, not a traffic thread can go by without this age old dispute raising its pompous head. So I'm gonna have to ask that we get this thread back on track and keep to the original topic. If I have to ask again, there shall be wooden spoon related incidents (50 shades of grey shhhhhtyle!)
    Sorry I was posting my post at the same time.
    apoeiguq3094y wrote: »
    No matter what route it uses, the fact that the bypass will provide a usable way across the river should dramatically ease traffic problems.
    Definitely. It's going to improve traffic across the county. Tuam is a nightmare due to all the galway traffic going through it. The entire N17 can get held up by one person going slow. It's a real pain for anyone doing business in Galway or Tuam.


  • #453
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Yes naturally enough it would as you are adding road capacity - but for how long is the question? and at what cost?

    Well for as long as they keep the new bypass open ....

    I think the cost can be offset against the cost of inaction - which is the loss of business to Galway due to the horrible traffic, and the environmental cost of slow moving traffic.

    I think your argument is that we are in danger of building too much road capacity, but i think that we are definitely in the situation where there isn't enough capacity crossing the river. There are no available sites to cross the river between the Quin bridge and the bay, so we must go upriver, which requires a network to connect to it.
    Zzippy wrote: »
    ...

    there should be an integrated approach which includes all modes of transport, not just a car-driven singleminded focus on a bypass. That was my point.

    I think when you move traffic off the quin bridge onto the new bypass, it will allow for the continuation of the bus corridor from westside, all along the current N6 to parkmore. This will provide a useful and reliable bus service from salthil -westside -nuig - terryland - lisbaun - ballybrit - parkmore. That would be a genuine public transport option for many people. Currently if you live in the western half of the city, but want to go the employment hubs in the east, you have to get 2 buses via eyre square - which noone wants to do.

    The solution isn't just the bypass, but I think the solution HAS to include the bypass.

    EDIT: also after the bypass, they can enforce the 50k limit on the current N6, which would make it more bike and pedestrian friendly. It must me one of the most ignored limits in the country


  • #454
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Sorry I was posting my post at the same time.

    Definitely. It's going to improve traffic across the county. Tuam is a nightmare due to all the galway traffic going through it. The entire N17 can get held up by one person going slow. It's a real pain for anyone doing business in Galway or Tuam.

    Could you be confusing the N17/N18 with the N6?


  • #455
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    apoeiguq3094y wrote: »
    I think your argument is that we are in danger of building too much road capacity, but i think that we are definitely in the situation where there isn't enough capacity crossing the river. There are no available sites to cross the river between the Quin bridge and the bay, so we must go upriver, which requires a network to connect to it.

    I think when you move traffic off the quin bridge onto the new bypass, it will allow for the continuation of the bus corridor from westside, all along the current N6 to parkmore. This will provide a useful and reliable bus service from salthil -westside -nuig - terryland - lisbaun - ballybrit - parkmore. That would be a genuine public transport option for many people. Currently if you live in the western half of the city, but want to go the employment hubs in the east, you have to get 2 buses via eyre square - which noone wants to do.

    The solution isn't just the bypass, but I think the solution HAS to include the bypass.

    EDIT: also after the bypass, they can enforce the 50k limit on the current N6, which would make it more bike and pedestrian friendly. It must me one of the most ignored limits in the country

    My argument would be how do you make the most efficient use of the existing road capacity. Single-occupant vehicle (SOV) in not efficient usage of road capacity.
    A lot of merit in your above proposal - however there was ZERO indication at the Public Consultation that this will occur with any of the proposed bypass routes.


  • #456
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Could you be confusing the N17/N18 with the N6?
    Are they not all part of the same project? They've started on the new motorway as well as far as I know.


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  • #457
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Are they not all part of the same project? They've started on the new motorway as well as far as I know.

    Nope, nothing to do with each other, aside from the fact they are both funded by the NRA, and the N17/18 will presumably take some traffic away from Galway at rush hour when it will matter.


  • #458
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Another out there notion from a councillor to avoid bypass. Loads of flaws. At least he is proactive.
    - Remove the footpaths on the QB & 3 lanes of traffic on both sides & build hanging bridges on either side for cyclists & pedestrians.

    - A slip road be made to and from the QB onto Dyke Road and a road to link onto the Headford & Tuam roads put in place.

    - A relief road for Claregalway & a link from there that would bring traffic from the west side of the city on to the M6 towards Carnmore.

    - A slip road to an underpass under the QB to be carried out in conjunction with proposed widening works by NUIG on their own underpass, and onto the N59 & a similar type exit from the N59 onto the N6/SQR.

    - Remove the Browne Roundabout. Create an underpass that would bring traffic from the Lower Newcastle Road to the Thomas Hynes Road.

    - Create a slip road off the N6 from the QB into the hospital back gate and a slip road exit from the gate towards SQR. Traffic wishing to exit the hospital to other areas can use the Cathedral side exit.

    - An underpass into Westside SC to remove traffic lights, providing freedom of movement with just one set of lights at the western side of the QB between the traffic lights at Tesco to the lights at Glen Oaks Hotel.


  • #459
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    http://connachttribune.ie/councillor-comes-up-with-alternative-to-bypass-plan-977/"

    Remove the footpaths on the QB & 3 lanes of traffic on both sides = more capacity for cars.

    - A slip road be made to and from the QB onto Dyke Road = more capacity for cars.

    - A relief road for Claregalway & a link from there = more capacity for cars.

    - A slip road to an underpass under the QB = more capacity for cars.

    - Remove the Browne Roundabout. Create an underpass = more capacity for cars.

    - Create a slip road off the N6 from the QB = more capacity for cars.

    - An underpass into Westside SC to remove traffic lights, providing freedom of movement = more capacity for cars.

    It's a cliche by now, perhaps, but as Einstein said we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.


  • #460
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    snubbleste wrote: »
    Another out there notion from a councillor to avoid bypass. Loads of flaws. At least he is proactive.
    - Remove the footpaths on the QB & 3 lanes of traffic on both sides & build hanging bridges on either side for cyclists & pedestrians.

    - A slip road be made to and from the QB onto Dyke Road and a road to link onto the Headford & Tuam roads put in place.

    - A relief road for Claregalway & a link from there that would bring traffic from the west side of the city on to the M6 towards Carnmore.

    - A slip road to an underpass under the QB to be carried out in conjunction with proposed widening works by NUIG on their own underpass, and onto the N59 & a similar type exit from the N59 onto the N6/SQR.

    - Remove the Browne Roundabout. Create an underpass that would bring traffic from the Lower Newcastle Road to the Thomas Hynes Road.

    - Create a slip road off the N6 from the QB into the hospital back gate and a slip road exit from the gate towards SQR. Traffic wishing to exit the hospital to other areas can use the Cathedral side exit.

    - An underpass into Westside SC to remove traffic lights, providing freedom of movement with just one set of lights at the western side of the QB between the traffic lights at Tesco to the lights at Glen Oaks Hotel.

    New bridges, slip roads, underpasses - sounds suspiciously like a bypass, just built where the existing N6 is.


  • #461
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It's a cliche by now, perhaps, but as Einstein said we cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.

    Not saying these proposals are the best but one thing is for sure, what we need is more capacity for cars and a lot more. Only the deluded would think otherwise.


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  • #462
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    Not saying these proposals are the best but one thing is for sure, what we need is more capacity for cars and a lot more. Only the deluded would think otherwise.

    Is that not exactly what got us into the current mess?


  • #463
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    Is that not exactly what got us into the current mess?

    No, capacity was increased in order to meet demand. Now demand has increased again so we need to increase capacity more.


  • #464
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    No, capacity was increased in order to meet demand. Now demand has increased again so we need to increase capacity more.

    Well more like the current bypass was designed in the late 1970's, the population has nearly doubled since within context of City and surrounding area's. Bad design that was out of date even before it was fully completed.


  • #465
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    No, capacity was increased in order to meet demand. Now demand has increased again so we need to increase capacity more.

    Or we could just manage demand better (eg by putting secondary schools nearer to homes and giving them bus services, and giving employers incentives to hire people living locally), and make better use of the existing capacity (remember that picture IWH posts, showing relative amounts of road-space needed for 50 people in a bus vs on cars, or bicycles).

    Even I believe we need another bridge, to provide adequate redundancy for when the Quin Bridge is out of action. But building another outer bypass yet further out than the current one will simply cause the urban sprawl to edge out towards it.


  • #466
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Or we could just manage demand better (eg by putting secondary schools nearer to homes and giving them bus services, and giving employers incentives to hire people living locally), and make better use of the existing capacity (remember that picture IWH posts, showing relative amounts of road-space needed for 50 people in a bus vs on cars, or bicycles).

    Even I believe we need another bridge, to provide adequate redundancy for when the Quin Bridge is out of action. But building another outer bypass yet further out than the current one will simply cause the urban sprawl to edge out towards it.

    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc. Also its beneficial for a lot of people to build on on their own land etc. There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    As a person who intends to return home and settle in county Galway in the next few years, being able to get into the city as easily as possible by car is something that will be vital for me.

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.


  • #467
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc. Also its beneficial for a lot of people to build on on their own land etc. There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    As a person who intends to return home and settle in county Galway in the next few years, being able to get into the city as easily as possible by car is something that will be vital for me.

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.

    This is the mad mindset that has created this car traffic mess in Galway City in the first place.


  • #468
    threeball
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭threeball


    what_traffic wrote: »
    This is the mad mindset that has created this car traffic mess in Galway City in the first place.

    No it isn't. Having a city with only a narrow passage jammed between the countries biggest lake and the Atlantic ocean coupled with absolutely zero foresight on the part of the authorities is what caused the traffic mess.

    Pigeon holing people into little pods where they don't want to live just so a bus can pick them up and drop them back from whatever job they have to do to pay the bills is not living, merely existing. People should be allowed live where they want and how they want as long as they're not infringing upon anyone else or upon areas of particular beauty or interest.


  • #469
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    what_traffic wrote: »
    This is the mad mindset that has created this car traffic mess in Galway City in the first place.

    What mad mindset? People wanting to live in a particular place?


  • #470
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Mylah Quaint Technique wrote: »
    What mad mindset? People wanting to live in a particular place?

    No obviously not. You can live anywhere you want "Mylah Quaint Technique". You just have to be willing to put up with the consequences of that action.


  • #471
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc. Also its beneficial for a lot of people to build on on their own land etc. There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    As a person who intends to return home and settle in county Galway in the next few years, being able to get into the city as easily as possible by car is something that will be vital for me.

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.

    If they only hire locals, does that mean they have to fire you if you move?

    If the new bridge isn't upriver, where is going to go. The city centre streets are already full, putting another bridge won't make much difference unless there is road capacity to bring the traffic to the bridge.

    Galway has already spralled much further out than the route of the bypass. The sprawl of houses continues as far as inverin out along the coast road.


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  • #472
    what_traffic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,002 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    threeball wrote: »
    People should be allowed live where they want and how they want as long as they're not infringing upon anyone else or upon areas of particular beauty or interest.

    And that's the crux of the problem. The proposed bypass/s are infringing upon people's home or upon areas of particular beauty or interest.


  • #473
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    Think of any other city or large town in Ireland by the coast. If you want to go from one side of the city/town to the other, you generally have a dual carriageway bridge or tunnel around the outside, and a number of large capacity routes through the city/town centres.

    E.g. the limerck tunnel, jack lynch tunnel, m50 etc. Even waterford has better bridge capacity and there's sod all on the Kilkenny side of the river.

    In Galway you can either use the QB, or else go through all the pedestrians on either Spanish parade, the market, or the tourists/students on the salmon weir bridge. We have pretty much one route that is capable of handling cross city traffic, the others are really suitable for local access only.

    The city is constrained by a lack of traffic capacity crossing the city. either we build a new bridge/tunnel (not in the city centre) or else close one side of the city and get everyone to migrate accross the river. Given the opposition to progress in Galway, i'm not convinced which would be easier.


  • #474
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc. Also its beneficial for a lot of people to build on on their own land etc. There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    As a person who intends to return home and settle in county Galway in the next few years, being able to get into the city as easily as possible by car is something that will be vital for me.

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.

    I live in one of those nice country houses and if I had it to do again I would not buy out the country for many, many reasons
    - properties are too spread out to provide proper provision of services
    - long ass commute
    - general expense of having no option but to own a car

    I always lived in the city and never owned a car until we moved out to the countryside and instead cycled everywhere.

    I look forward to when I can finally close the sale of the house I'm currently in, move back into the city and sell the car.

    As for country living being popular, its popular because of poor planning laws & controls. As those get tightened up over the next few years, its going to become less and less popular.

    All that being said, the bypass is needed if only to remove 40% of through traffic from the city and I hope they make the smart (IMHO) choice and go for the green route of something similar as this is the most future proof option as far as I can see


  • #475
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    threeball wrote: »
    People should be allowed live where they want and how they want as long as they're not infringing upon anyone else

    If your choice of home requires you to drive a car everywhere then by definition you are infringing on other people. You are infringing on other people if you expect everybody's taxes to be spent to facilitate your personal lifestyle choices.

    If you want to live in the country then you should bear the full cost of your actions.


  • #476
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,653 ✭✭✭yer man!


    I really just don't understand it when people say we don't need a bypass but need public transport options and sure that'll sort everything out! When you look at any large town or city in the UK or farther afield in Europe, nearly every single one of them have provision to get the cars away from the damn city. This includes ring roads or near passing motorways/dual carriageways. Take cambridge in the UK for example, the council there are incredibly anti-car. Parking is restricted, one way streets all over the place and speed cameras literally on every street. The reason for this is to encourage public transport and walking/cycling. This approach worked BUT only after provision to get the cars out of the city was implemented. Galway is over capacity and the public transport system is going to have to be something that evolves with demand of you want something actually sustainable rather than a massively bloated subsidised mess. By removing the car, putting it somewhere else, then start restricting the city but improving the public transport you can really build something sustainable and efficient. It's a model that's tried over and over and over and over again, it works! You'd swear we're the first city in the world with a traffic problem.


  • #477
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    what_traffic wrote: »
    No obviously not. You can live anywhere you want "Mylah Quaint Technique". You just have to be willing to put up with the consequences of that action.

    I disagree with you on two counts:

    1. People should not be, and indeed are not, free to live anywhere they want. There is a statutory planning process, which on occasion results in people being refused permission to build where they want to. And rightly so. It's just that in Ireland the planning process is, in my opinion, flawed. This has in many areas resulted in large tracts of land being ruined by that great Irish oxymoron, "bad planning". County Galway is a prime example, being one of the worst examples in the country of "measles development" caused by that very Irish virus.

    2. The people who end up living anywhere they want are not the only ones to put up with the consequences. The economic, social and environmental costs of such unsustainable development are borne by everyone. In the case of the proposed "bypass" it is farcical (and utterly typical in the Irish context) that what has been referred to in transport studies as "rural areas under strong urban pressure" are being used as a justification for a new road and bridge.


  • #478
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc. Also its beneficial for a lot of people to build on on their own land etc. There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    As a person who intends to return home and settle in county Galway in the next few years, being able to get into the city as easily as possible by car is something that will be vital for me.

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.

    So you want to live in your fantasy house, and have roads built to enable you to live wherever you want and get somewhere else quickly? What about the people currently living in real houses where they want, not too far from the city, whose real homes are under threat for a road just to facilitate people like you? Are you more important than them or something?


  • #479
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    If your choice of home requires you to drive a car everywhere then by definition you are infringing on other people. You are infringing on other people if you expect everybody's taxes to be spent to facilitate your personal lifestyle choices.

    If you want to live in the country then you should bear the full cost of your actions.

    To be fair, and I say this as someone who loves living walking distance to everywhere in the city, have you seen the prices of houses in Galway city? Even crap-heaps with negative BER ratings go for crazy money. Not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city.


  • #480
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. Country living for instance is very popular in Ireland because people want their own space, live close to family, have bigger houses (at lower cost), bigger gardens, garages etc etc.
    ...

    I have no problem with improving bus infrastructure also as it has its place but it should never be at the expense of car capacity.
    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    Not saying these proposals are the best but one thing is for sure, what we need is more capacity for cars and a lot more. Only the deluded would think otherwise.

    As is often the case with your posts, your arguments at least have the merit of being honest, my favourite example being your description of motorists as "the people that matter". You don't try to pretend, as many "bypass" acolytes do, that the primary objective is to free up road space in the city for all those motorists just dying to get out of their cars and onto bus, bike and benenwagen.

    That said, this kind of argument in favour of a "bypass" is based on nothing more than a populist ideology of corrosive individualism and mindless consumerism. It has no intellectual coherence, no strategic vision, no basis in good public policy, no decent ideas to support it, and no future. It's the sort of empty rhetoric that wins votes in the short term and helps us lose everything of real value in the long term. Bertie Ahern would love it.


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  • #481
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    Not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city.


    What is the cost of a 3/4-bed semi in the "rural" hinterland outside Galway City compared to urban and suburban areas?

    What proportion of the "rural" population would you say lives in 3/4-bed semi-detached houses?


    ________________________________________________

    Nice bit of policy-based evidence-making in today's Galway Independent. That is, if a Galway Chamber of Commerce long-sought wish-list can be regarded as a policy.

    Excerpt 1:
    An extensive Galway Chamber database of people working in and around Galway was used to solicit participants. The response rate was extremely positive and a total of 765 responses were received. The thoughtful responses of all are greatly appreciated, with many useful and insightful views being included in the comment areas. This can be considered to be a very good response and there is confidence that the answers and the views are very much reflective of those working in Galway.

    Excerpt 2:
    Linked to the long commutes is the fact that significant proportions of people across the city (River Corrib) to work every day. This traffic volume must be accommodated by just five lanes in each direction across the river. 44% of people who work on the western side of the city travel from east of the Corrib while 37% working on the eastern side are travelling from west of the Corrib. This emphasises the need for an outer bypass.

    This "research" was apparently carried out and reported with academic support from the Department of Civil Engineering in NUI Galway. I kid you not.

    If I was a lecturer, and the researchers were my students, I'd fail them and suggest a line of work more suited to their talents.


  • #482
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What is the cost of a 3/4-bed semi in the "rural" hinterland outside Galway City compared to urban and suburban areas?

    Um, a lot less? Sorry not sure what your point is, was that a rhetorical question, a cursory check on daft will let you know if not.

    Remember a lot of house buying happened during the boom, when the city was even less affordable. As they say, we are where we are.


  • #483
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I don't agree with a policy that tries to dictate to people where they should live. .... There will always be a large number of people who will want to drive to Galway to work and live elsewhere and these should be accommodated with more road capacity, while those who want to live on the west and work on the east of the city and vice versa should also have capacity provided for them to get to work quickly and easily by bypassing the city centre.

    No one's trying to dictate where any individual should live.

    But on a population basis, it's simply not feasible to allow a majority to live in one-off housing in the country side and also give them all fast car access to the city centre. Among other things, they'll all get in each other's way.

    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.


  • #484
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Your comment was that "not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city."

    If this issue is to have any bearing on the present debate, then it must be the case that (a) the same type of house costs substantially less in "rural" areas than in the city, and (b) a significant portion of the population must be living in such accommodation in rural areas.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but can you point to any evidence that supports such an assertion?


  • #485
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.


    Was that an objective of the WDR? I had no idea, tbh.


  • #486
    El_Dangeroso
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Your comment was that "not everyone has a choice to live within cycling/bussing/walking distance to work due to the high cost of housing in the city."

    If this issue is to have any bearing on the present debate, then it must be the case that (a) the same type of house costs substantially less in "rural" areas than in the city, and (b) a significant portion of the population must be living in such accommodation in rural areas.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, by the way, but can you point to any evidence that supports such an assertion?

    Not sure what evidence I could provide, only that proximity to centres of trade and enterprise is a determinant of a house price all other things being equal, I didn't think this was controversial? I suppose compare what your money will get you in claregalway or athenry vs anywhere within 5km of Spanish arch on daft if you need to see for yourself.

    I know a lot of people who bought houses in commuter towns in the boom that now bemoan their hours spent in the carpark that is Claregalway of a morning. They'd much rather live in a city suburb and spend that 2 hours a day with their kids rather than listening to drivetime radio.

    Of course some people have communities that they want to stay in but that generally doesn't lead to population growth in this area, but rather maintennence.

    I don't get why it has to be a case of forward thinking public transport strategies OR a bypass. Can't we have both?


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  • #487
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I live in one of those nice country houses and if I had it to do again I would not buy out the country for many, many reasons
    - properties are too spread out to provide proper provision of services
    - long ass commute
    - general expense of having no option but to own a car

    I always lived in the city and never owned a car until we moved out to the countryside and instead cycled everywhere.

    I look forward to when I can finally close the sale of the house I'm currently in, move back into the city and sell the car.

    As for country living being popular, its popular because of poor planning laws & controls. As those get tightened up over the next few years, its going to become less and less popular.

    All that being said, the bypass is needed if only to remove 40% of through traffic from the city and I hope they make the smart (IMHO) choice and go for the green route of something similar as this is the most future proof option as far as I can see

    It's the other way around for me. I grew up and lived in the country until my mid 20's. I'm currently living in a city (not galway) and while I do like living in the city I could never see myself settling in one and long term the country is where I plan to live, specifically in my homes area of co. Galway.
    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    If your choice of home requires you to drive a car everywhere then by definition you are infringing on other people. You are infringing on other people if you expect everybody's taxes to be spent to facilitate your personal lifestyle choices.

    If you want to live in the country then you should bear the full cost of your actions.

    What a joke, I pay road tax, vrt, vat and excise on petrol, vat on servicing, vat on tyres and all the people that are kept in jobs due to cars and running them. I'm not getting anywhere near the service that I'm paying for when it comes to roads and infrastructure.
    Zzippy wrote: »
    So you want to live in your fantasy house, and have roads built to enable you to live wherever you want and get somewhere else quickly? What about the people currently living in real houses where they want, not too far from the city, whose real homes are under threat for a road just to facilitate people like you? Are you more important than them or something?

    Most of my family and many of my friends are living in real houses in the country and I also use the roads regularly myself also as I am back around country galway regularly. I don't want to see people out out of their houses btw but something needs to be done to increase road capacity in and around the City.


  • #488
    WallyGUFC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭WallyGUFC


    When were Bothar na dTreabh and the QB built? And why don't buses cross the QB?


  • #489
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    El_Dangeroso wrote: »
    I know a lot of people who bought houses in commuter towns in the boom that now bemoan their hours spent in the carpark that is Claregalway of a morning. They'd much rather live in a city suburb and spend that 2 hours a day with their kids rather than listening to drivetime radio.

    ...

    I don't get why it has to be a case of forward thinking public transport strategies OR a bypass. Can't we have both?


    A dozen years ago we discussed the idea of living outside the city for about three minutes and dismissed it. Our choice was to live a reasonable distance from work and education. Curiously, most of our neighbours, who in general travel to the same places, use their cars for every trip. I'll bet if you surveyed them most would agree with a bypass, just not through our collective backyard.

    We could have had forward-thinking transport policies for the past 25 years, but we didn't. The reason, in my view, is that the only show in town from the late 90s was a bypass. It was to solve everything, including the consequences of decades of doing nothing effective about traffic and transportation. I've even had Garda officers tell me on more than one occasion that the answer to traffic enforcement problems is a bypass. Go figure...

    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    I pay road tax, vrt, vat and excise on petrol, vat on servicing, vat on tyres and all the people that are kept in jobs due to cars and running them. I'm not getting anywhere near the service that I'm paying for when it comes to roads and infrastructure.


    Again that's an individualistic, ideological and emotive argument for a "bypass", not a rational one. It's based on nothing more than a sense of entitlement. The "I pay tax" special pleading argument has already been addressed by none other than the European Commission: taxes and charges do not cover the external costs of private motor transport (especially in Ireland, perhaps, with our absurd levels of sprawl, populist road-building projects and EU-beating levels of car dependence?).


  • #490
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!


  • #491
    nuac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    crusier wrote: »
    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!

    They can stay east of the Corrib, admiring views of limestone pavements and bog-cotton.

    Tourists come from all around the world just to see these


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  • #492
    ?Cee?view
    Registered Users Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭?Cee?view


    nuac wrote: »

    Tourists come from all around the world just to see these

    Not to mention inward investment. Those multinationals who employ people just love the oul Galway bog cotton...


  • #493
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    A dozen years ago we discussed the idea of living outside the city for about three minutes and dismissed it. Our choice was to live a reasonable distance from work and education.

    Funnily enough my home place is in the middle nowhere relatively speaking and just over 1km from a primary school and 4km from a secondary school. If you can avoid the bad 30 mins or so of traffic in the mornings you can be in work and around the city in 30 mins or so and only 20 mins into the city at off peak times.

    I'd call that living a reasonable distance. Off course if you have an irrational hatred of using the nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible form of transport this the car and expect to be able to get buses or cycle places then of course you will have issues living in the country.


  • #494
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    crusier wrote: »
    Maybe Galway should ban tourists, those bastards come every year in their cars and clog up the city, they should be made cycle from airports and some of them have the cheek to drive across the city wanting to go to that place called Connemara where the peasants live!
    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    If you can avoid the bad 30 mins or so of traffic in the mornings you can be in work and around the city in 30 mins or so and only 20 mins into the city at off peak times.

    Comparatively few bring their cars to Ireland, I would imagine. Those coming to Galway may use rental cars, but they can also come by bus and train.

    When they arrive in Galway during the summer they will experience the well-recognised phenomenon of traffic moving more freely when the schools are off (though not during the Race Week mania, presumably).

    They may also come by bike, although they may think twice about cycling around the more cycle-hostile parts of the city, mixing with the many dangerous and erratic drivers.

    Nine years ago, Failte Ireland developed a national cycle tourism strategy, pointing to the fact that this sector was worth €50 million to the economy. They specifically excluded Galway City from their plans, mainly because the many cycle-hostile roundabouts prevented the identification of safe and convenient routes in and through the city.

    If they cycle around the city the European ones especially will find, to their surprise, that they are legally prohibited from following the most direct and convenient routes, because of the extensive one-way system designed to facilitate traffic flow and car parking. They will also notice that in stark contrast to many European cities and towns not a single metre of road in the entire city has a speed limit lower than 50 km/h.

    If the tourists choose to walk around the city, as many do, they will find that even the key routes lack pedestrian-priority crossings, because the Council prioritises motorised traffic flow along city routes and 'corridors' rather than pedestrian connectivity and permeability. They will also see numerous examples of narrow and inadequately surfaced footpaths, pedestrian-hostile wide kerb radii and other impediments to walking such as rampant illegal parking on footpaths (blithely ignored by wardens and police). They will see a small city (really a town in EU terms) strangely wedded to the car for travelling even short distances, and the Germans and Dutch among them may well wonder why the Irish own fewer cars than they do but yet have somehow collectively lost the use of their legs.


  • #495
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »

    We built roads to keep people out of the city centre: Bóthar na dTreabh and the Quin bridge and the Western Distributor Rd. But all they really did was expand the city out around them.

    In the case of Quin Bridge and Bóthar na dTreabh that isn't necessary true. The city already had been developed past them by late 70's early 80's. For example Newcastle and Tirellan (though I don't have exact development dates). In reality Bóthar na dTreabh should have crossed Terryland River and gone north of Tirellan with bridge across the Corrib north of Jordan's island (say around top of Corrib Village). Instead they pushed it through Suckeen bog.


  • #496
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Jazmin Green Straightjacket wrote: »
    nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible form of transport


    That's what all the drivers say to themselves, presumably. Of course, from this perspective traffic congestion is caused by all those other drivers, or by those nasty people who won't create more and more space for the NCCFFT.

    As for the inevitable consequences of mass dependence on NCCFFT, the desperation is growing:
    Galway delegation to travel to Europe to discuss bypass options

    A deputation from Galway is to travel to Europe to discuss proposals for a new city bypass and the option of returning to the original route which failed at planning stage. It was decided at a special meeting of the Galway County Council on Monday evening that city and county councillors, local TDs, and community representatives will meet MEPs and members of the European Commission to discuss various options.

    ...

    There is hope in some quarters that if the old application was made under Article 6.4 of The European Habitats Directive, it could be successfully advanced. According to this part of the legislation, a project may be carried out in spite of a negative assessment of a priority habitat, if it is proved prove there is no alternative, or for reasons of overriding public interest [IROPI], including those of a social or economic nature.

    And another choice quote:
    Athenry based Peter Feeney told the chamber, that as a council, this was one of the most important recommendations it would ever make. He said it was extremely important that the message went back to the Government that Galway County Council was in favour of the project. He made an impassioned case for the need for a new bypass.

    “The traffic situation in Galway is in crisis, the roads are full, the car parks are full. There is a social and family element to this, people are spending hours in their cars, leaving children in crèches, early in the morning until late evening.

    I love that bit in bold. Now we need a bypass to deal with a lack of car parking spaces! You could not make it up.

    And why is Cllr Feeney lamenting that people are spending hours in a "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible" transport environment?


  • #497
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    That's what all the drivers say to themselves, presumably. Of course, from this perspective traffic congestion is caused by all those other drivers, or by those nasty people who won't create more and more space for the NCCFFT.

    As for the inevitable consequences of mass dependence on NCCFFT, the desperation is growing:



    And another choice quote:



    I love that bit in bold. Now we need a bypass to deal with a lack of car parking spaces! You could not make it up.

    And why is Cllr Feeney lamenting that people are spending hours in a "nice, comfortable, convenient and flexible" transport environment?

    If you were around when the wheel was invented you would have objected to it!


  • #498
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    crusier wrote: »
    If you were around when the wheel was invented you would have objected to it!

    Nope. Hint: bikes have wheels, as do prams etc.

    If Galway Councillors were around when pedestrian crossings were invented, they'd still be looking for a bypass.


  • #499
    crusier
    Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭crusier


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Nope. Hint: bikes have wheels, as do prams etc.

    If Galway Councillors were around when pedestrian crossings were invented, they'd still be looking for a bypass.

    I know bikes and prams have wheels but you wouldn't have had the foresight to see the value they would be to you!!!


  • #500
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    You're clutching at straws now, like those Councillors heading off to Europe, cap in hand... :)


  • #501
    apoeiguq3094y
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭apoeiguq3094y


    WallyGUFC wrote: »
    When were Bothar na dTreabh and the QB built? And why don't buses cross the QB?

    During morning /evening traffic you could walk faster than the traffic on these stretches. No point having buses sitting in that traffic.

    There isn't enough space to add in bus lanes.


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