Enforcing a determination order

Graces7 · 20-08-2018 9:47am

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this question.
Threshold have allegedly told a tenant living in a family members property to overhold until they find other suitable accommodation. Would a call recording of an individual in threshold giving that 'advise' be enough proof?

I had help from threshold when my previous tenancy went sideways. AT NO TIME was I advised to overhold, or to use the deposit as last month's rent etc, They were punctilious. There was the question of the lease and they contacted the agent and gave alternatives that were accepted by both sides.
Threshold were totally above board and legal when I was tempted to take short cuts .

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 20-08-2018 10:19am

I was also very particular in how I worded my query, hence why I said 'allegedly'.

"Do not move until you have somewhere else to live" ...sure sounds like telling the tenant to overhold.

Graces7 wrote: »

I had help from threshold when my previous tenancy went sideways. AT NO TIME was I advised to overhold, or to use the deposit as last month's rent etc, They were punctilious. There was the question of the lease and they contacted the agent and gave alternatives that were accepted by both sides.
Threshold were totally above board and legal when I was tempted to take short cuts .

Fian · 20-08-2018 11:16am

DubCount wrote: »

I have never figured out why non-payment of rent is not treated as theft and the subject of a criminal charge. Maybe the treat of a criminal conviction might focus the minds of squatting tenants.

We did away with debtors prisons long ago. It is not a crime to be unable to repay a debt.

If a person dishonestly signed a lease with an intention not to pay the rent (rather than an intention to pay but a subsequent inability to do so) that would constitute an offence:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/6/enacted/en/html

Of course it would be practically impossible to prove the required intent beyond a reasonable doubt.

DubCount · 20-08-2018 4:53pm

Fian wrote: »

We did away with debtors prisons long ago. It is not a crime to be unable to repay a debt.

If a person dishonestly signed a lease with an intention not to pay the rent (rather than an intention to pay but a subsequent inability to do so) that would constitute an offence:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/act/50/section/6/enacted/en/html

Of course it would be practically impossible to prove the required intent beyond a reasonable doubt.

I did not suggest debtor prisons. We have mechanisms to deal with bankrupt individuals that dont involve prison. I have no issue with that.

However, using a service without the intention to pay for it is theft in my view. Its no different from taking goods without the intention to pay. If you are caught, saying "I cant afford the good/service" should not be a defense.

The tenant in OP's post will eventually be evicted. What system do we have to ensure that they do not move on to another tenancy, keep their nose clean for 6 months, and then milk some other LL for a free ride?

Inability to pay a debt is one thing, milking the system should be criminal IMHO.

3DataModem · 20-08-2018 5:06pm

Good luck OP, whatever action you take.

My tenant of 10 years is leaving next year, after which time it’s short term / holiday letting only for me, and the reason is the risk of strategic overholding / underpaying.

Graces7 · 20-08-2018 5:12pm

Sienna Putrid Bird wrote: »

I was also very particular in how I worded my query, hence why I said 'allegedly'.

"Do not move until you have somewhere else to live" ...sure sounds like telling the tenant to overhold.

Yes I noticed your great punctilious care.

I find that wording open to interpretation when taken out of context. Depends on the rest of the talk? Do they mean withholding rent? Moving before the notice is up?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 20-08-2018 5:29pm

Staying in the property after notice period but continuing to pay rent.

Graces7 wrote: »

Yes I noticed your great punctilious care.

I find that wording open to interpretation when taken out of context. Depends on the rest of the talk? Do they mean withholding rent? Moving before the notice is up?

cherrypick · 20-08-2018 8:44pm

handlemaster wrote: »

The RTB are all for the tenant. So much so they love to publise there cases against landlords. I have yet to see them chase à tenant for unpaid rent

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

Baby01032012 · 20-08-2018 10:00pm

cherrypick wrote: »

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

It works both ways. There are far greater laws in favor of the tenant than are loopholes for a landlord to screw the tenant. There’s guidance now for refurbishment which makes it more difficult to use that as a reason to increase rent over the 4% it’s still subjective though and open to interpretation and up to the tenant to challenge. If no once challenges then there’s no precedent to go by.

the_syco · 21-08-2018 11:37pm

cherrypick wrote: »

Yeah cause paying 1.5K for one bedroom or 2K for a ****hole and evicting tenants with a fake refurbishment is cool.

You wanted rent caps, you got rent caps. This is the result of rent caps.

utmbuilder · 23-08-2018 12:46am

it's made the way the little ****e bags from etoll can come take your car with ballifs by turning a 12 euro debt to thousands yet you can't pursue large sums for rent after the fact.

Owlet · 23-08-2018 6:52am

Does anyone know how straightforward it is to track someone down after they leave the property (assuming they don't leave you a forwarding address!). I will pursue our tenant for the money until the day I die. Will I have to employ a private detective or something?

Baby01032012 · 23-08-2018 8:11am

Do you have their valid IDs, PPS could track through HSE etc. do you have valid references to track through employer etc

Owlet · 23-08-2018 8:15am

We have a PPS number and copy of photo ID I believe - will have to ask the letting agent for copies of information originally provided when he took up the lease. I don't believe he is still employed unfortunately.

Baby01032012 · 23-08-2018 8:19am

Owlet wrote: »

We have a PPS number and copy of photo ID I believe - will have to ask the letting agent for copies of information originally provided when he took up the lease. I don't believe he is still employed unfortunately.

Get everything agent got and check them yourself. I did that and found everything to be false and even most basic check by agent would have identified this. I’ve a case about to come before the courts against the letting agent. However I did loose €10k due to tenant non payment and overholding.

Owlet · 23-08-2018 8:22am

That's very interesting. On what grounds are you taking action against the letting agent? Won't they just say they acted in good faith and did their best with false info?

Baby01032012 · 23-08-2018 8:27am

They could say that, that’s a risk. The level of checks though was very poor. Took me 10 mins to confirm work and previous accommodation weren’t real. Barrister is pretty confident. I’m prepared to take the hit if I loose. Principles cost money

Owlet · 23-08-2018 8:31am

I ask because I discovered within 5 minutes of googling that the tenant had a criminal conviction for possessing drugs which we never knew about. We clearly would never have rented to someone with a criminal record. I cannot believe the letting agent didnt pick it up. Wondering if we might have similar grounds for action.

DubCount · 23-08-2018 8:32am

Owlet wrote: »

Does anyone know how straightforward it is to track someone down after they leave the property (assuming they don't leave you a forwarding address!). I will pursue our tenant for the money until the day I die. Will I have to employ a private detective or something?

I understand the sentiment, but consider the cost vs benefit. Time/effort/legal costs etc. will probably make the collection of the money impossible or impractical. There is some chance the tenant may have moved from Ireland altogether, and even if you track them down and bring them to court, the award will be based on their ability to pay, and you could be decades getting your money back.

Its an unfair system, its wrong, but the rules of the game dictate the way you play the game.

Owlet · 23-08-2018 8:34am

I appreciate that. And I expect I will calm down and make peace with it in time. But for now I am focussed on retribution and understanding my options!

Baby01032012 · 23-08-2018 8:51am

Owlet wrote: »

I ask because I discovered within 5 minutes of googling that the tenant had a criminal conviction for possessing drugs which we never knew about. We clearly would never have rented to someone with a criminal record. I cannot believe the letting agent didnt pick it up. Wondering if we might have similar grounds for action.

That may beyond the expectation of what an agent should find out but if a basic google search turned that up maybe. My agent had work reference with paper head from well known company with address in wrong location and misspelt, only mobile number, no reg address directors or companies office no. Accommodation I google which was a detention center for asylum seekers.

Owlet · 23-08-2018 9:03am

Very interesting. Many thanks.

Owlet · 23-08-2018 9:03am

Very interesting. Many thanks.

handlemaster · 23-08-2018 5:42pm

Owlet wrote: »

I appreciate that. And I expect I will calm down and make peace with it in time. But for now I am focussed on retribution and understanding my options!

Good on you. I think you can get an order against social welfare payments. Check Facebook. . Linkedin etc

utmbuilder · 25-08-2018 3:04am

total random here but I read some case where a person was served via Facebook

sounded extremely nuts to me but it appears to have happened

Owlet · 27-09-2018 2:29pm

Hi all - a quick update. We have a solicitor and a court date (late October). I ended up finding the solicitor by asking the RTB for a copy of their panel of solicitors and then phoning round a few local ones. Would recommend others take this approach if you don't already have a solicitor.

Unfortunately it seems likely the judge will give the tenant a stay of execution to find a new place, and this can be up to a month, which I find absolutely outrageous given that the tenant is 100% scumbag and there are no extenuating circumstances. But anyway, looks like we should have the place back in our hands by early December which is all we want at this stage.

Claw Hammer · 27-09-2018 3:31pm

Owlet wrote: »

Hi all - a quick update. We have a solicitor and a court date (late October). I ended up finding the solicitor by asking the RTB for a copy of their panel of solicitors and then phoning round a few local ones. Would recommend others take this approach if you don't already have a solicitor.

Unfortunately it seems likely the judge will give the tenant a stay of execution to find a new place, and this can be up to a month, which I find absolutely outrageous given that the tenant is 100% scumbag and there are no extenuating circumstances. But anyway, looks like we should have the place back in our hands by early December which is all we want at this stage.

That is assuming that the case is not adjourned in October. Even after the expiry of a court order you may need to get the sheriff. I wouldn't be holding my reath waiting for early December.

Owlet · 27-09-2018 3:39pm

Why would the case be adjourned if it is so clear cut?

Is the sherriff quite quick or is that not the case?

Carlos Orange · 27-09-2018 4:04pm

Owlet wrote: »

Why would the case be adjourned if it is so clear cut?

Thanks for the update. It's interesting to see how these things play out.

If the case is so straight forward [and I'm sure it is] why do you expect the tenant to get a month to find a new place? The tenant has had the best part of six months to find a new place by the sounds of it [7k behind 2 months before the court date]. I presume your solicitor has advised you the stay of execution is likely. When do they think you will have the place back in your hands?

Owlet · 27-09-2018 5:06pm

The solicitor just said that given the current political climate around homelessness the judge would likely give a stay of execution of up to 28 days, but he didn't see any problems with our case at all. I was just curious why the previous poster seemed to think there was an even worse case scenario out there! This is all new to us. We will certainly ask the solicitor to push for the shortest stay of execution possible.

Carlos Orange · 27-09-2018 5:32pm

28 days after the court day is edging into a Christmas time frame. That seems like something people might make a song and dance about.
Anyway,best of luck.

Owlet · 27-09-2018 6:09pm

The tenant already has a criminal conviction (which we only recently found out about) and a judgement against him (again, recent). No partner. No kids. It's hardly a sob story.

Graces7 · 28-09-2018 4:21pm

splinter65 wrote: »

The advice Threshold give is not unlawful. And there are still some appalling landlords who have a special place reserved for them in hell who need to be reeled in.

Thank you and you echo what I have often said from my own experiences with landlords. Threshold are sound. legal and supportive

True their advice supports tenants but that does not make it unlawful. They uphold the law so maybe it is the law you object to?

Claw Hammer · 28-09-2018 4:27pm

Owlet wrote: »

Why would the case be adjourned if it is so clear cut?

Is the sherriff quite quick or is that not the case?

Quite often, o the first day in court the Respondent asks for time to put in a replying affidavit. Also the judges put back any contested application to a day they have time to hear them. Your case may well be listed with 50-100 other items of business and the judge will only deal with a fraction of them on the day.

utmbuilder · 29-09-2018 2:02am

it's unlikely they will show to court, so it will probally be the sheriff's after the court hearing

bit of luck tennant will do a legger before then

feel your pain ignore it if possible try keep on top of bills,

Owlet · 23-10-2018 7:30pm

We won our court case. Tenant didn't show up. Tenant instructed to pay us €10000 plus legal fees and vacate in 14 days. Now need to obtain court order (another 7 day wait for that apparently!) then serve the tenant again, which is when the 14 days starts ticking. The bureaucracy and slow pace of everything is exasperating but we are limping forward. It is really taking a toll on us mentally and financially. Thank you to everyone for your support here.

massy086 · 23-10-2018 7:45pm

Owlet wrote: »

We won our court case. Tenant didn't show up. Tenant instructed to pay us €10000 plus legal fees and vacate in 14 days. Now need to obtain court order (another 7 day wait for that apparently!) then serve the tenant again, which is when the 14 days starts ticking. The bureaucracy and slow pace of everything is exasperating but we are limping forward. It is really taking a toll on us mentally and financially. Thank you to everyone for your support here.

You should really call liveline as all you hear in the media is high rents and bad greedy landlords.when your case is so comon now a days it's disgusting how the LL is treated.

MarkR · 23-10-2018 7:52pm

10k, but will you see any of it?

Owlet · 23-10-2018 7:53pm

MarkR wrote: »

10k, but will you see any of it?

Almost certainly not. The main thing is to get the property back in our hands.

airy fairy · 23-10-2018 8:23pm

Owlet wrote: »

Almost certainly not. The main thing is to get the property back in our hands.

Exactly.
We were owed €15k and tenant was ordered to pay us. Never seen it.
But we got our property back.
Property left in a state of disrepair, but got it back.
It's heartbreaking.

Owlet · 23-10-2018 8:35pm

airy fairy wrote: »

Exactly.
We were owed €15k and tenant was ordered to pay us. Never seen it.
But we got our property back.
Property left in a state of disrepair, but got it back.
It's heartbreaking.

Did you have to use the sheriff to gain access in the end? If so how long did that take?

airy fairy · 23-10-2018 8:55pm

Owlet wrote: »

Did you have to use the sheriff to gain access in the end? If so how long did that take?

No, thankfully.
But my barrister said that if there sheriff was appointed, then it would take a matter of 48hrs or so.

Owlet · 23-10-2018 9:12pm

airy fairy wrote: »

No, thankfully.
But my barrister said that if there sheriff was appointed, then it would take a matter of 48hrs or so.

Thanks so much. Good to know.

machalla · 24-10-2018 9:31am

Owlet wrote: »

Thanks so much. Good to know.

I'm curious, how much is all of this costing you financially? 7k at least in arrears if not more now. Legal fees on top of that.

utmbuilder · 25-10-2018 1:11am

id be petty certain that person has probally done a legger or is in the process of doing so in coming days

when you get access, likely to just be filthy. renting is a bad investment get out of the market

Owlet · 11-12-2018 9:42pm

Good evening

I thought I would update this post to let you all know the good news - we regained possession of the property last week.

This has been one of the most stressful experiences of my life. Thank you to everyone who has provided practical and moral support on this board!

Just to recap on our experience:
Last year - tenant pays rent late every month
April 2018 - tenant stops paying rent completely and tells us we will have to take him to court to get the property back
April to December - tenant does not show up to RTB hearing or appeal the decision, tenant does not show up to court or appeal decision, tenant manages to evade being served for a couple of weeks, tenant is in the house the first time we try to change locks but then we are able to gain access the following day. Also during this time the tenant confirmed he doesn't live at the property full time and only uses it as a pied a terre 'when I am in Dublin'. Another highlight was when some moron in the district court wrote down the wrong amount we were owed on the court order, then went on sick leave for two weeks, and it took me going in person to the court and bursting into tears with my baby in my arms to convince them to sort it out (which they then did within a couple of hours).
December 2018 - Locksmith and I gain access to property late one night while tenant is out. If we weren't able to do this then we would have had to get the Sheriff involved and they told me they wouldn't be able to do it until mid January.

So, in a case with ZERO extenuating circumstances and in which the tenant did not engage AT ALL with the legal process it has taken us 8 months to regain possession. We are at the very minimum €15k out of pocket and we will never see a penny of that.

As expected the property is in a fairly terrible state so we will lose more money doing it up again. (Anyone know a cheap and quick carpet fitter in Dublin???)

However, the main thing is that we did it legally and we have the keys back in our hands and that feels fabulous.

Thank you again everyone.

3DataModem · 11-12-2018 9:49pm

Well done. Sorry you had to go through that. Thanks for sharing.

Squatter · 11-12-2018 10:25pm

Delighted for you, Owlet. Would I be right to assume that not a single member of the Irish media has contacted you and asked to write up your story?

Baby01032012 · 11-12-2018 10:32pm

Well done Owlet. Thankfully you have some piece of mind coming up to Christmas. Sounds like as is the situation in this country you had no support from any state support despite being forced to go through the rtb and you had to personally bring this to the courts. Sorry for your trouble.

He should be named and shamed so no one else gets caught by him. Speaking in jest though as I know doing so would be illegal.

Alkers · 11-12-2018 11:35pm

Is there no mechanism to persue the Tennant for owed rent?

Enforcing a determination order

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