Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

22-11-2019 4:21pm

FrannoFan wrote: »

How is toner on the bench a waste? Like should be starting ahead of Fardy or do you think away games in France the Heineken cup is the time to play 20 year old second rows?

This season? Absolutely.

This is probably Fardy's last season and we've no idea how much longer Dev is playing for. I'd much prefer we started exposing some of the depth we've been building in the second row.

We either do it this year in a controlled manner, or we're forced into it within the next two seasons. It's good to see both Deegan and Doris get starts during the pools but we've to bring another player capable of starting a game like this through in the second row fairly pronto.

22-11-2019 4:36pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its away in france against the french league leaders.....

of course we're going to focus on set piece and pressure.
thats a basic template on how to play away in europe against good teams.

hopefully by the time the bech are released we will be enough ahead thats the status quo continues.

That to me is a bench for closing out a game, not chasing a score. If we're ahead on the scoreboard we'll keep Lyon throwing to their line out between their 22 and half way. Wash rinse repeat, Toner will disrupt the odd one.

Clegg wrote: »

Kelleher is the real deal, isn't he? He's leapfrogged Byrne and Tracy despite having a fraction of the caps. Cronin won't find it easy to regain his place when he returns from injury.

Terrible time for Cronin to get injured. At 33 he's probably only another year or two but his absence has left a big gap for Kelleher to run through and he's making the most of it.

Be an interesting battle when Cronin is back. Very timely for Leinster and Ireland - the Scannell v Kelleher rows should be fun!

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 5:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That to me is a bench for closing out a game, not chasing a score. If we're ahead on the scoreboard we'll keep Lyon throwing to their line out between their 22 and half way. Wash rinse repeat, Toner will disrupt the odd one.

Terrible time for Cronin to get injured. At 33 he's probably only another year or two but his absence has left a big gap for Kelleher to run through and he's making the most of it.

Be an interesting battle when Cronin is back. Very timely for Leinster and Ireland - the Scannell v Kelleher rows should be fun!

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

The Lost Sheep · 22-11-2019 5:27pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

22-11-2019 5:39pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is it a row? Scannell has never even pushed Best for a starting role, if Kelleher continues as is he should be starter....the question would be Cronin v Scannell on bench

This is some straight up bizarre logic.

Aside from that, there's not much doubt now that Kelleher should be making a 6N squad, and I think his start here is a big statement in how the Leinster management trust him.

kingofthekong · 22-11-2019 5:41pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

Scannel has been bang average, wouldnt start for any other six nations team. Kelleher has shown far more promise then Scannell has ever shown in the last 3 years.

I think you 'will only happen to some players' line is a slight dig at people overrating Leinster players? may not be may be regarding under age players being ovrhyped....nonetheless I think a Munster bias has you placing Scannell in the 2 jersey for Ireland

Faugheen · 22-11-2019 5:45pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

‘If Kelleher continues as he is’ being the key phrase here.

He’s the form hooker by a mile at the moment and if he can pass the test he faces tomorrow then why shouldn’t he be considered?

I’ve never seen Niall Scannell as a long-term solution to hooker (or Cronin for that matter). Both of them have flattered to deceive more often than not and if Kelleher is outperforming them at the top club level then why not?

This is coming from someone who said we needed to wait and see how he gets on in Europe before we talk about it only a couple of weeks ago.

Tomorrow and Saints away (if he plays) will be massive tests for him.

22-11-2019 5:48pm

Scannell has been a weird one. He started 2 tests down in Aus in the summer of 2018 where Ireland played some excellent stuff and obviously won the series. That should have been a clear enough signal he was ready to step up. I can't say I've watched every minute of him but he either wasn't given another proper chance in green (it became irrelevant how badly some players played for Ireland - they were starting no matter what) or his form might have dipped, he had some competition at Munster from Marshall and I think he had a few wobbles such as that game against Racing where he had a bit of a meltdown at the lineout. I think he's a decent option and he's not old for a front row at all.

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 5:48pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that is seriously overestimating Kelleher(which only happen to some players.....).
Kelleher is far from starter or near being it. Scannell is still that bit ahead for me based on what he can do.
Scannell hasn't got past best and may have got more game time if best wasnt captain/so strong as team leader and Cronin offered something so different off bench.

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

Why do we think that suddenly Scannell or Cronin are going to massively improve since the WC?

Would it not be better to keep one of Scannel/Cronin in squad. Probably Scannell and invest in Kelleher and maybe another young hooker?

PS I did mention if he continues as he is......

The Lost Sheep · 22-11-2019 5:50pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Scannel has been bang average, wouldnt start for any other six nations team. Kelleher has shown far more promise then Scannell has ever shown in the last 3 years.

I think you 'will only happen to some players' line is a slight dig at people overrating Leinster players? may not be may be regarding under age players being ovrhyped....nonetheless I think a Munster bias has you placing Scannell in the 2 jersey for Ireland

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 5:53pm

Discussion should be moved to Ireland thread......not part of Leinster thread

22-11-2019 5:56pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

Why do we think that suddenly Scannell or Cronin are going to massively improve since the WC?

He's 27. That is an eternity away from being 30 as a rugby player, especially in a position where our last start just retired at age 37, so stop being so disingenuous.

Secondly, whether he pushed Best or not is irrelevant to the question as to whether he's the best option now in the instance that Best has retired.

aloooof · 22-11-2019 6:00pm

Wesley Hissing Devil wrote: »

Scannell has been a weird one. He started 2 tests down in Aus in the summer of 2018 where Ireland played some excellent stuff and obviously won the series. That should have been a clear enough signal he was ready to step up.

The weird thing about that was that Scannell wasn't even in the squad initially until Best got injured. I think Herring played fairly poorly in the first Test and Scannell went on to start the final 2 Tests, which we won.

Imo, given the circumstances, that probably tells us more about how little Schmidt rated Cronin than how much he rated Scannell.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Scannell is nearly 30 now and he has never pushed Best to start. Cronin either by the way

He's only 27!

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 6:04pm

Ok I thought he was 28 going on 29.....but still discussion for Ireland thread

kingofthekong · 22-11-2019 6:17pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth..

AdamD · 22-11-2019 6:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not sure how I feel about that team selection.

Not much impact on the bench so we will go hard out of the blocks and then shut the game down in the last 20.

People seem to have a notion that impact off the bench has to be based purely on athletic dynamism. Doesn't really add up. If we have either an attacking or defensive line out at the end of the game, either to contest in the air, attack or defend a maul, you take Toner every single time over an athletic 'impact' sub. Similarly you need lads who can actually scrum too.

Squidgy Black · 22-11-2019 6:30pm

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

I'd love to see him get into camp for the summer tour. I think the 6N is probably a bit soon, we really need to see how he gets on as the season progresses.

Him starting over Byrne and Tracy isn't exactly a massive feat, I think it's been fairly clear that neither are the option for Leinster, Tracy in particular who looked like his was going to take over from Strauss and Cronin when he broke into the scene and picked up his handful of Ireland caps, but he couldn't be further from that point in his career now.

I do think he'll be pressing for a spot against the likes of Scannell and Herring eventually, but I think he's not 100% there yet and a couple of big performances in Europe (and if he can keep Cronin on the bench) will certainly help his case.

salmocab · 22-11-2019 6:34pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

I'd love to see him get into camp for the summer tour. I think the 6N is probably a bit soon, we really need to see how he gets on as the season progresses.

Him starting over Byrne and Tracy isn't exactly a massive feat, I think it's been fairly clear that neither are the option for Leinster, Tracy in particular who looked like his was going to take over from Strauss and Cronin when he broke into the scene and picked up his handful of Ireland caps, but he couldn't be further from that point in his career now.

I do think he'll be pressing for a spot against the likes of Scannell and Herring eventually, but I think he's not 100% there yet and a couple of big performances in Europe (and if he can keep Cronin on the bench) will certainly help his case.

What happened was after the WC everyone was keen to throw the baby out with the bath water, we needed fresh blood and when Kelleher started well lots were calling for him to go straight into the Irish team, I’m actually not so sure it was blue tinted as much as a back lash against the green tinted establishment.

The Lost Sheep · 22-11-2019 6:57pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth..

The irony of this. There is an extreme blue tint to so so many views on kelleher.
Its nonsense to say scannell had only ever been bang average.
We see it all the time here with leinster posters who are majority here. This is nothing to do with Munster.

aloooof · 22-11-2019 6:59pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Hasnt shown more progress then others? what exactly have you been watching? Scannell has never looked anything better than bang average. As I said already he wouldnt start for any other six nations team..

Your massively overatting Munster players by that standard then.

If your bar for Ireland is as low as 7th best hooker in the six nations should start for Ireland then thats fairly sad.

A lot of Leinsters young players are better then their Munster counterparts as much as that might hurt a Munster fanboy but its the truth.

I don't wish to speak for The Lost Sheep, but clearly his bar for starting Ireland hooker is the best Irish qualified hooker. (Wherever they rank among the other 6N's hookers is irrelevant, they're not available to us).

You happen to think the best option is Kelleher. The Lost Sheep happens to think it's Scannell. And that's fine, there's a discussion to be had there.

But you simply stating opinion as fact doesn't make it so.

Out of interest, to try and move the discussion along, what areas do you think Kelleher is better at? What areas do you think Scannell is better at?

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 7:01pm

Guys, I was just answering a post.....we have gone off into an Ireland discussion so maybe move to Ireland thread. A Kelleher v Scannell conversation has nothing to do with Leinster

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 7:10pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I do think there's a bit of blue tinted glasses about Kelleher, and I'll admit I'm guilty of it myself, but he does look like a superb prospect.

It's the Leinster thread, of course you expect blue tinted glasses.....

Like on Munster thread with them going on abut Mathewson been the best 9 in Ireland :P

I didn't see that comment turning into a big debate.....

connemara man · 22-11-2019 7:13pm

Enough of the provincial stirring, Tinted glasses baiting nonsense

Cards will get handed out!

22-11-2019 7:32pm

connemara man wrote: »

Enough of the provincial stirring, Tinted glasses baiting nonsense

Cards will get handed out!

I'm not going to lie, I fully intended for this to happen

salmocab · 22-11-2019 7:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not going to lie, I fully intended for this to happen

Your like a Bond villain

Squidgy Black · 22-11-2019 7:36pm

aloooof wrote: »

Out of interest, to try and move the discussion along, what areas do you think Kelleher is better at? What areas do you think Scannell is better at?

So far Kelleher's been pretty clinical in the loose, 7 tries in 6 games this season. His throws have been fairly on point too, the Leinster lineout has been functioning fairly well (granted he's throwing to Toner quite often but still).

Shefwedfan · 22-11-2019 7:40pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

So far Kelleher's been pretty clinical in the loose, 7 tries in 6 games this season. His throws have been fairly on point too, the Leinster lineout has been functioning fairly well (granted he's throwing to Toner quite often but still).

Plenty of hookers have thrown to Toner and missed him :P

Clegg · 22-11-2019 11:34pm

Always nervous about away games in France. They're difficult fixtures no matter what. But I think Leinster get sucked in to the game the home side wants to play too often. We regularly undrperform in France. But beat Lyon tomorrow and the pool is ours, I think.

typhoony · 23-11-2019 12:24am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

irony of this post. Kelleher has 8 appearances for Leinster. Scored few tries but has not at all shown more progress than others.
It is both. Leinster players are being overhyped and any young player who does well in a few games gets pushed by far too many here to immediately be promoted to higher level. Steady on.

he could have at least another 8 appearances for Leinster before the 6 nations starts, if he continues to play well and Leinster keep winning I can't see how he's not the No.1 choice for Ireland. remember there was no stand-out competition to Best at least not until Best's form dipped in the last year

prawnsambo · 23-11-2019 5:20pm

Who's the Scottish commentator who keeps calling Furlong 'Tag'?

connachta · 23-11-2019 5:36pm

I don't get who's this new centre called James Ryan who made 2 huge breathrough this day...

kingofthekong · 23-11-2019 5:41pm

Luke mcgrath doesnt half make some dumb errors

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 5:42pm

JGP get a smack from someone ?

Burkie1203 · 23-11-2019 5:42pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

JGP get a smack from someone ?

In the warm up apparently

Squidgy Black · 23-11-2019 6:13pm

Kearney and McGrath have to be replaced by Larmour/JGP. We're just completely underwhelming in attack at the moment, and neither are contributing in comparison to their competition.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 6:21pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Kearney and McGrath have to be replaced by Larmour/JGP. We're just completely underwhelming in attack at the moment, and neither are contributing in comparison to their competition.

I agree

McGrath has a nightmare, Kearney just looked poor

Our attack is good, stupid mistakes all over the place.....Lyon made it difficult as well....

Clegg · 23-11-2019 6:30pm

I'm delighted with that result. We always struggle in France, so to come away with a win against the league leaders is an achievement.

The performance is a different story. There were a few very good performances in there and in general our defensive structure was excellent. But similar to last week we have away too many penalties and invited pressure on ourselves. We also blew a few great try scoring opportunities through individual errors.

Good result, but we need a big improvement to beat Northampton away. Win that and I think the group is sealed.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 6:44pm

I watched bits of Northampton, really Treviso should have won and even the last play the ref was totally against them.....

If we can sort out some of the errors I think we can win over in Northampton

Clegg · 23-11-2019 7:10pm

Had a look at the stats for the game.

VDF is down for the most tackles with 22 completed. To put that into context, Deegan has the next most with 14. VDF is just stupidly competitive.

baas baa · 23-11-2019 7:11pm

VDF was motm hands down, horror show minute from Ringrose toward the end.

PhlegmyMoses · 23-11-2019 7:16pm

Clegg wrote: »

Had a look at the stats for the game.

VDF is down for the most tackles with 22 completed. To put that into context, Deegan has the next most with 14. VDF is just stupidly competitive.

There was a bit of talking about him being underpowered and all the things he can't do at the WC, even though I thought he was one of our better players. But in Leinster colours he shows a great running game, offloading, hits so many rucks and makes so many tackles. Maybe with a new Irish coach it might play to his strengths more because he is not the guy to make metres in an attritional game by trucking it up the middle and asking him to do that is pointless.

23-11-2019 7:31pm

Don't think McGrath and Kearney were as poor as being made out. Both players bore a good deal of pressure from the way Lyon were playing.

Excellent Leinster performance. Lyon were up for this game but they took 20 minutes to acclimatise to the speed and width Leinster put on the ball.

I feel we learned form Toulouse away last year and tightened up a little more despite looking the better team in possession.

Provided we keep the squad reasonably healthy I think we can 6/6 this pool and having watched Northampton earlier I think we've possibly gotten the toughest fixture out of the way. No guarantees but If I was going to make a bet at this point I'd back Leinster to clean sweep the pool.

baas baa · 23-11-2019 7:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Don't think McGrath and Kearney were as poor as being made out. Both players bore a good deal of pressure from the way Lyon were playing.

Excellent Leinster performance. Lyon were up for this game but they took 20 minutes to acclimatise to the speed and width Leinster put on the ball.

I feel we learned form Toulouse away last year and tightened up a little more despite looking the better team in possession.

Provided we keep the squad reasonably healthy I think we can 6/6 this pool and having watched Northampton earlier I think we've possibly gotten the toughest fixture out of the way. No guarantees but If I was going to make a bet at this point I'd back Leinster to clean sweep the pool.

McGrath's kicking was excellent, but in other facets he's just too inconsistent and has regressed the past year IMO. Kearney did what Kearney does, will never be enough for some but I'm sure Cullen and Lancaster got exactly what they wanted.

Shefwedfan · 23-11-2019 8:06pm

baas baa wrote: »

McGrath's kicking was excellent, but in other facets he's just too inconsistent and has regressed the past year IMO. Kearney did what Kearney does, will never be enough for some but I'm sure Cullen and Lancaster got exactly what they wanted.

I’m a huge Kearney and McGrath fan but I don’t think either will be happy with that display

McGrath made a mess a few times when Leinster had control of the ball. I know Lyon tried to make a mess of breakdown which he done ok with but needs to step it up.....the Lyon 9 was a lot better all day and that doesn’t happen much

Kearney had a couple of errors as well, both players I think had poor games by their standards

Kearney lack of passing was really shown up a few times when we had a potential attacking option and he ran straight into contact

baas baa · 23-11-2019 9:02pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I’m a huge Kearney and McGrath fan but I don’t think either will be happy with that display

McGrath made a mess a few times when Leinster had control of the ball. I know Lyon tried to make a mess of breakdown which he done ok with but needs to step it up.....the Lyon 9 was a lot better all day and that doesn’t happen much

Kearney had a couple of errors as well, both players I think had poor games by their standards

Kearney lack of passing was really shown up a few times when we had a potential attacking option and he ran straight into contact

Attacking wise we know what we get from Kearney at this stage, he's not going to miraculously develop a passing game, we conceded 6 points which is in part down to having a FB who doesn't give up easy territory, prefect against a big pack on a heavy pitch in France. One moment stood out for me which maybe coloured my perception a bit, there was a Lyon kick through near the touchline which with an inexperienced or indecisive FB could've caused trouble but Kearney swept it up and managed to keep in play and the danger was cleared, they're the moments that keep Kearney in the side on days like today.

23-11-2019 9:05pm

baas baa wrote: »

Attacking wise we know what we get from Kearney at this stage, he's not going to miraculously develop a passing game, we conceded 6 points which is in part down to having a FB who doesn't give up easy territory, prefect against a big pack on a heavy pitch in France. One moment stood out for me which maybe coloured my perception a bit, there was a Lyon kick through near the touchline which with an inexperienced or indecisive FB could've caused trouble but Kearney swept it up and managed to keep in play and the danger was cleared, they're the moments that keep Kearney in the side on days like today.

Without being a world class tackler like his brother, Kearney brings a composure to defensive 15 play that has been central to the success of some of the teams he's been in.

In some ways watching the way Ringrose plays - I can't help but feel he'd be an incredible 15. I'd be far more interested seeing him slot in there than Henshaw.

Clegg · 23-11-2019 9:05pm

Watched Leinster's first try again. VDF's work on the charge down and regather was sensational, but there were other great contributions as well. Ryan's after receiving the offload from VdF. VdF's clearout at the subsequent ruck. Deegan's little floated pass to the wing over the head of a Lyon player to keep the move going. And Ruddock's good latch to help Deegan over the line. It was an excellent team try.

baas baa · 23-11-2019 9:16pm

Clegg wrote: »

Watched Leinster's first try again. VDF's work on the charge down and regather was sensational, but there were other great contributions as well. Ryan's after receiving the offload from VdF. VdF's clearout at the subsequent ruck. Deegan's little floated pass to the wing over the head of a Lyon player to keep the move going. And Ruddock's good latch to help Deegan over the line. It was an excellent team try.

There were numerous clearouts from VDF that made my go "wow". His ability to get low and explode into the guy competing for the ball is something else, must be great for McGrath seeing the 7 Jersey in front of him as he's running toward a tackled player.

23-11-2019 9:17pm

Clegg wrote: »

Watched Leinster's first try again. VDF's work on the charge down and regather was sensational, but there were other great contributions as well. Ryan's after receiving the offload from VdF. VdF's clearout at the subsequent ruck. Deegan's little floated pass to the wing over the head of a Lyon player to keep the move going. And Ruddock's good latch to help Deegan over the line. It was an excellent team try.

If we can get Leavy back playing rugby - we've a very formidable starting backrow in Leavy, VDF, Ruddock. And some genuine talent coming through behind them. For all the talk of Kelleher, I was really impressed by Deegan this afternoon.

23-11-2019 9:18pm

baas baa wrote: »

His ability to get low and explode into the guy

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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