RTÉ to cease DAB broadcasting

ford fiesta · 14-11-2019 8:53am

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Sadly this formula was tried once before when the multi-city licence station was originally granted to 4FM (later rebranded to "Classic Hits". 4FM was very similar to BBC Radio 2 in it's early days and had a licence to broadcast to the Dublin commuter belt as well as Cork, Limerick, Galway and Clare.

Today the station known as: "Classic Hits" bears little or no resemblance to it's earlier incarnation as 4FM.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/veterans-back-on-the-airwaves-as-4fm-launches-85562.html

4FM had to make money though and that format didn't. RTE Gold is not meant to make money.

hustlergraham · 14-11-2019 12:08pm

Jonathan1990 wrote: »

Will Ireland still receive any British DAB stations anywhere in the country?

Eh we don't! Unless your on high ground with good weather conditions.

14-11-2019 12:28pm

hustlergraham wrote: »

Eh we don't! Unless your on high ground with good weather conditions.

Or live within range of a Nordie transmitter such as Brougher! I lived in an area of Sligo where I could pick up everything from that tx,TV,FM radio and DAB!

AwaitYourReply · 14-11-2019 5:06pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

4FM had to make money though and that format didn't. RTE Gold is not meant to make money.

I realise why 4FM had to change format - just surprised that when most stations launch with a concept, the initial style format & programme schedule rarely survives for long if at all. I think it comes down to poor market research in advance of station launches as it has happened numerous times.

Some radio station names that have evolved over the years include:

Century Radio > Century 100 > Century FM (closed November, 1991)

Radio South > Cork's 96FM

Radio Ireland > Today fm

4FM > Classic Hits 4FM > Classic Hits

RTE Radio 2 >Radio 2FM > 2FM > RTÉ 2fm

2RN > Radió Éireann > RTÉ Radio > RTÉ Radio 1

I was aware that RTÉ Gold would never have been granted it's digital-only licence if it had run advertising on that station given RTÉ's dominance in the market and objections from the commercial independent radio sector. I do not know if by closing other radio services if it helps RTÉ's case in obtaining permission to allow advertising on GOLD if was given a reprieve from closure in 2020. The BAI has allowed a lot of dumbing down on stations like the former 4FM so maybe RTÉ should remind them about these things in the interests of meeting their obligations.

Lord Nelson · 14-11-2019 5:46pm

Unfortunately it's a familiar trend in Ireland, change the station name to create the illusion of something new but continue to pump out more of the same old sh*te.
On the question of the viability of a DAB, a quick observation. The EU have determined that all new cars sold across Europe must be capable of receiving services in any EU country, i.e.: FM, DAB, etc. In Ireland there are circa 120,000 new cars sold per annum along with nearly 80,000 imported second hand cars from the UK. Effectively, over a five year period there could be up to 1 million DAB enabled vehicles on the road. Whether this will help drive (pun intended!) interest is of course questionable and will largely depend on how the broadcast sector respond. The BAI will undoubtedly kick the can down the road and set up a committee to look into setting up a committee to look into it and then do nothing as per usual.

Declan A Walsh · 14-11-2019 10:36pm

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I realise why 4FM had to change format - just surprised that when most stations launch with a concept, the initial style format & programme schedule rarely survives for long if at all. I think it comes down to poor market research in advance of station launches as it has happened numerous times.

Some radio station names that have evolved over the years include:

Century Radio > Century 100 > Century FM (closed November, 1991)

Radio South > Cork's 96FM

Radio Ireland > Today fm

4FM > Classic Hits 4FM > Classic Hits

RTE Radio 2 >Radio 2FM > 2FM > RTÉ 2fm

2RN > Radió Éireann > RTÉ Radio > RTÉ Radio 1

I was aware that RTÉ Gold would never have been granted it's digital-only licence if it had run advertising on that station given RTÉ's dominance in the market and objections from the commercial independent radio sector. I do not know if by closing other radio services if it helps RTÉ's case in obtaining permission to allow advertising on GOLD if was given a reprieve from closure in 2020. The BAI has allowed a lot of dumbing down on stations like the former 4FM so maybe RTÉ should remind them about these things in the interests of meeting their obligations.

More name changes:

Phantom FM > TXFM (closed October 2016)

Capital Radio > Rock104 > FM104

Classic Hits 98FM > 98FM > Dublin's 98 > 98FM

Lite FM > Q102

Dublin's Country 106.8 > Dublin's Country Mix 106.8 > Sunshine 106.8

Anna Livia > Dublin City FM

Dublin South Community Radio > Dublin South FM

In relation to Classic Hits, formerly 4FM, its remit is the over 45s, so there is a lot of flexibility in terms of the type of music it plays, and does not have to stick to the "oldies".

I think replacing 2FM with RTE Gold would make a lot more sense than continuing with 2FM and discontinuing RTE Gold altogether.

Pete Best · 14-11-2019 11:09pm

Here in Northern Ireland, we have 62 stations in the greater Belfast area, with probably more stations in the new year when Capital Radio, and others, switch to DAB+.

Even outside greater Belfast there’s a choice of at least 40 odd stations with Digital One province wide after a long wait, although some areas remain problematic for DAB. South Down for example, I would imagine.

For DAB to succeed in the ROI it needs to have a similar set up, especially now RTÉ have thrown in the towel. There’s no reason why DAB can’t work down south, given the population size compared to the north.

Commercial radio in the ROI only became a reality after the numerous pirates of the early 1980’s, but that was 20 odd years after radio revolution of the mid 60’s on mainland U.K. Something like that needs to happen with DAB in the ROI in order to get the licensing authorities to wise up.

Hopefully, the new pirate multiplexes will prompt someone to take action, but I doubt it.

Given the recent recession and the severe E.U. austerity measures, I suppose DAB radio is the least of their worries.

Former Former · 15-11-2019 12:16am

Pete Best wrote: »

Here in Northern Ireland, we have 62 stations in the greater Belfast area, with probably more stations in the new year when Capital Radio, and others, switch to DAB+.

Even outside greater Belfast there’s a choice of at least 40 odd stations with Digital One province wide after a long wait, although some areas remain problematic for DAB. South Down for example, I would imagine.

For DAB to succeed in the ROI it needs to have a similar set up, especially now RTÉ have thrown in the towel. There’s no reason why DAB can’t work down south, given the population size compared to the north.

Commercial radio in the ROI only became a reality after the numerous pirates of the early 1980’s, but that was 20 odd years after radio revolution of the mid 60’s on mainland U.K. Something like that needs to happen with DAB in the ROI in order to get the licensing authorities to wise up.

Hopefully, the new pirate multiplexes will prompt someone to take action, but I doubt it.

Given the recent recession and the severe E.U. austerity measures, I suppose DAB radio is the least of their worries.

You're not comparing like with like.

DAB in the North leverages the enormous commercial radio sector in the UK, the almost infinite resources of the BBC and the brand awareness of DAB that has been built up through ad campaigns in the UK. Of those 62 stations, how many are native to the North?

The North got to where it is by default. The economy of scale of the UK is the reason for it. The Republic doesn't have that and never will.

AwaitYourReply · 15-11-2019 12:19am

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

More name changes:

Phantom FM > TXFM (closed October 2016)

Capital Radio > Rock104 > FM104

Classic Hits 98FM > 98FM > Dublin's 98 > 98FM

Lite FM > Q102

Dublin's Country 106.8 > Dublin's Country Mix 106.8 > Sunshine 106.8

Anna Livia > Dublin City FM

Dublin South Community Radio > Dublin South FM

In relation to Classic Hits, formerly 4FM, its remit is the over 45s, so there is a lot of flexibility in terms of the type of music it plays, and does not have to stick to the "oldies".

I think replacing 2FM with RTE Gold would make a lot more sense than continuing with 2FM and discontinuing RTE Gold altogether.

I presume even if the powers that be at RTÉ shared our views on 2fm being retired in favour of RTÉ Gold continuing on FM after RTÉ's DAB network closure, it would still require prior permission from the B.A.I./Dept. of Communications? I don't think RTÉ alone can make such decisions. Even when RTÉ had a monopoly on Radio & TV broadcasting, they used have to obtain approval in advance from the Minister for Communications of the day to make any such changes such as end of transmission time on RTÉ Radio 1, RTÉ Radio 2, RTÉ RnaG, RTÉ FM3 Music, RTÉ Cork Local Radio.

Funnily enough RTÉ tv seemed more liberal if they were showing a late film on Hallowe'en, Christmas/New Year's, Easter or at weekends even in those days but radio was always more strict.

ford fiesta · 15-11-2019 8:35pm

maybe there is hope yet for RTE Digital radio stations.

Remember 2 years ago, RTE News Now channel on TV was going to be axed...and that didn't happen !!

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/rte-to-axe-tv-news-channel-as-services-hit-by-financial-woes-36393796.html

AwaitYourReply · 16-11-2019 12:16am

ford fiesta wrote: »

maybe there is hope yet for RTE Digital radio stations.

Remember 2 years ago, RTE News Now channel on TV was going to be axed...and that didn't happen !!

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/rte-to-axe-tv-news-channel-as-services-hit-by-financial-woes-36393796.html

This is true and I also remember the initial announcement regarding RTÉ News Now which has not been specifically mentioned in the current cuts proposed.

My concern is that station management have been all over the place flying kites and blaming government which is only part of the problem if one considers that there is enough pressure on the tax payer to pay more taxes as it is. Ireland has an ongoing crisis in Health, Water/waste, Housing crisis, Switching from fossil fuels to renewable to reduce CO2 emissions of face massive fines etc; Brexit uncertainty, threat to Ireland's 12.5% Corporation Tax policy and so on etc;

RTÉ station management needed to be realistic about changes in the sector many years ago. RTÉ News Now channel had potential when it first appeared on our screens however; after all these years it cannot afford to exist as they are unable to run commercial advertising on the channel as far as I know. Any major Irish event carried on RTÉ News Now will usually be simulcast with RTÉ One anyway which is pointless. I would much rather we had less services done really well rather than lots of tv/radio stations showing repeat after repeat and the same promotions played over and over again. RTÉ is spreading itself to thin and needs to get back to core values and better quality output.

Whenever I go through Virgin Media One, Virgin Media Two & Virgin Media Three they are repeating far too much which makes a joke of they having +1 time-shift channels as the same material is shown far too much. I would prefer that our public service broadcaster, RTÉ adopts a different approach which means some services axed, others tweaked and while that undoubtedly involves pain on RTÉ staff & sub-contractors however; every media organisation has had to make difficult choices in order to stay relevant and provide a stable service for the years ahead. Ireland needs a strong and healthy RTÉ into the future but I think it cannot do that unless it implements some difficult changes asap. I hope they succeed in this very challenging environment and things are not going to get any easier if they kick the can down the road for much longer.

Former Former · 16-11-2019 12:58am

ford fiesta wrote: »

maybe there is hope yet for RTE Digital radio stations.

Remember 2 years ago, RTE News Now channel on TV was going to be axed...and that didn't happen !!

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/rte-to-axe-tv-news-channel-as-services-hit-by-financial-woes-36393796.html

That was never announced by RTE though? It was a rumour

rogue-entity · 16-11-2019 1:13am

plodder wrote: »

Multicast IP will eventually fix that problem, I believe.

The BBC has done some good research in this area, but quite a lot of work is needed to develop all the required technical standards, particularly on the client side.

I agree it is technically possible, I suspect this is how IPTV providers operate at present. Yet as Multicast IPs are not routable over the public internet, it would be up to ISPs to provide the platform and it still makes them gatekeepers.

Former Former wrote: »

...the bandwidth and speed of mobile networks here will be many multiples of what it is now.

This is true but at present it is more than ample compared with the bandwidth available to the transmitting server and the restrictions that imposes.

Zird wrote: »

There's an independent youth licence for every region of the country, Beat, Spin south west west, I Radio.

Brought to you in part, by ABC Power 104 :P

Lord Nelson wrote: »

The BAI will undoubtedly kick the can down the road and set up a committee to look into setting up a committee to look into it and then do nothing as per usual.

The BAI should probably have their remit scaled back, have the ability and willpower to face down the interests of commercial broadcasters and confine themselves to ensuring that broadcasters operate within the terms of their licence.

At present, it appears that they are a victim of regulatory capture and the irony is that the status quo will drive radio to a death in this country.

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 11:47am

I wonder how many of the people who are against RTE making any of the proposed cuts and who want RTE to roll dab out to every parish in the country would be willing to pay a licence fee of €700 or €800 a year?

lengon · 16-11-2019 1:55pm

Zird wrote: »

There's an independent youth licence for every region of the country, Beat, Spin south west west, I Radio.

Yes but where are the local stations for jazz, sport, musicals and other formats all of which would be possible with DAB?

Ursus Horribilis · 16-11-2019 4:02pm

lengon wrote: »

Yes but where are the local stations for jazz, sport, musicals and other formats all of which would be possible with DAB?

Would they be though? What sort of audience size would they need to break even?

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 4:18pm

Ireland is way too small to sustain a UK style dab setup. In the uk, Freeview has 70 odd channels but here saorview has only 6 channels and since the rebrand of the TV3 stations, Virgin 1, 2 & 3 are pretty much like the one channel, often having shows like judge Rinder on at the same time. Even if a nationwide dab network was rolled out in the Celtic tiger years, all it would have today is a relay of everything on FM + UCB, Radio Maria and Raidio Ri ra.

Former Former · 16-11-2019 4:40pm

lengon wrote: »

Yes but where are the local stations for jazz, sport, musicals and other formats all of which would be possible with DAB?

We already have exactly as many of these as the market wants.

end of the road · 16-11-2019 4:57pm

there is no actual market in ireland though.

Infoanon · 16-11-2019 5:06pm

Former Former wrote: »

We already have exactly as many of these as the market wants.

And as many that can survive financially under the current regulations and constraints.

L1011 · 16-11-2019 5:40pm

Zird wrote: »

There's an independent youth licence for every region of the country, Beat, Spin south west west, I Radio.

Except, obscurely, Wicklow. Can receive iRadio or Beat in most of it but nobody is actually franchised for it.

Ursus Horribilis · 16-11-2019 5:48pm

I can't see how a load of new DAB channels could be financially viable. I'm as frustrated as anyone that the choice of music stations on FM is so poor outside of Dublin. But I'm not sure how many more stations such a small market could realistically support. TXFM didn't last and it was a niche station. All that DAB would do now is split the audience and eat into a pie that is already shrinking.

end of the road · 16-11-2019 6:11pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I can't see how a load of new DAB channels could be financially viable. I'm as frustrated as anyone that the choice of music stations on FM is so poor outside of Dublin. But I'm not sure how many more stations such a small market could realistically support. TXFM didn't last and it was a niche station. All that DAB would do now is split the audience and eat into a pie that is already shrinking.

yes but that wouldn't be a problem, that is how the market should be working, new stations eating into the audience and advertising, and what survives survives.
if we do still end up with the same as what we have, well at least then that will be the market actually deciding, which is how it needs to be.
while it's easy to use tx fm as an example as to why small scale stations definitely won't survive, it is not really a workable argument because it was expected to operate under the same model as a full service local radio station, a highly regulated, high cost model, for which any small station was never going to survive.

Ursus Horribilis · 16-11-2019 7:23pm

The time for rolling out DAB and giving it any sort of chance to be viable has long since passed. The sweet spot would have been in the early-mid 2000s when there was money sloshing around. More importantly, most people didn't have broadband, 4G, smartphones, Internet radio, smart speakers etc. Now, most people can easily access music and radio stations from anywhere in the world. My car has Android Auto in it and I can listen to online radio stations without any trouble at all. I'm currently trying out the GoMo network which costs a tenner a month.

DAB, I'm afraid, is a "nice to have" rather than something realistic and viable. Even if the stations weren't over-regulated, they'd struggle to stay afloat. The market is too small and too fragmented.

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 7:26pm

end of the road wrote: »

yes but that wouldn't be a problem, that is how the market should be working, new stations eating into the audience and advertising, and what survives survives.
if we do still end up with the same as what we have, well at least then that will be the market actually deciding, which is how it needs to be.
while it's easy to use tx fm as an example as to why small scale stations definitely won't survive, it is not really a workable argument because it was expected to operate under the same model as a full service local radio station, a highly regulated, high cost model, for which any small station was never going to survive.

The argument of course against that is that it would lead to more job losses and automaton across the board.

plodder · 16-11-2019 7:55pm

rogue-entity wrote: »

I agree it is technically possible, I suspect this is how IPTV providers operate at present. Yet as Multicast IPs are not routable over the public internet, it would be up to ISPs to provide the platform and it still makes them gatekeepers.

True, the general use cases that (say) the RTE player fits are a long way out, though will eventually happen in my opinion.

But, we were talking about a replacement for DAB broadcast radio. So, that would involve a very small subset of the public internet, including (regulated) mobile ISPs operating here, delivering content that is also being sent from here.

Which is why I surmised that future regulation in the mobile ISP space could include a requirement to deliver (source specific) multicast traffic on a neutral basis, which is all that is needed for this kind of broadcast replacement and is much easier for ISPs to handle than the original more general form of IP multicast.

end of the road · 16-11-2019 8:16pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

The time for rolling out DAB and giving it any sort of chance to be viable has long since passed. The sweet spot would have been in the early-mid 2000s when there was money sloshing around. More importantly, most people didn't have broadband, 4G, smartphones, Internet radio, smart speakers etc. Now, most people can easily access music and radio stations from anywhere in the world. My car has Android Auto in it and I can listen to online radio stations without any trouble at all. I'm currently trying out the GoMo network which costs a tenner a month.

DAB, I'm afraid, is a "nice to have" rather than something realistic and viable. Even if the stations weren't over-regulated, they'd struggle to stay afloat. The market is too small and too fragmented.

dab is a separate argument to market liberalisation though.
to be fair the market apparently being to small and to fragmented for niche operators is not something that can be said with certainty, as the current system doesn't allow for low cost operation. it's only once we engage in liberalisation that the market can decide whether that actually is the case or not, as the constraints will be removed.

Foxy wolf wrote: »

The argument of course against that is that it would lead to more job losses and automaton across the board.

that is quite likely coming long term anyway, along with creeping networking.
automation is going to come to a lot of industries as times go on, the best that can be done is preparations as to how we deal with the job losses.

Ursus Horribilis · 16-11-2019 8:20pm

How many listeners would you see a viable station needing to have?

rogue-entity · 16-11-2019 8:25pm

lengon wrote: »

Yes but where are the local stations for jazz, sport, musicals and other formats all of which would be possible with DAB?

That is a question you should be asking the BAI - it is entirely and squarely upon their heads.

However, the short answer is: Forced to stream online or operate on an unlicensed basis.

Former Former wrote: »

We already have exactly as many of these as the market wants.

There was a market in the mid 90s for a youth-oriented station but non existed, save for a pirate broadcaster that operated in spite of repeated raids. It was only that the lack of such a service became an election issue, that the powers that be decided that there was a market for such a service and the rest is history.

When Zenith Classic Rock broadcast on FM, it gained a good following. There could not be found a licence to give to them to operate on a full-time basis yet they could find a licence (and frequency) for Spirit and later a community station - we don't have a market - we have a cartel.

We've been down this road before more than 20 years ago:

Tony Allen wrote:

Tonight at 6 O'Clock sees what could be the end of the most exciting period in the history of broadcasting in Ireland when Radio Nova goes off the air.
Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of people in this country want the right to choose what station they listen to, those in power still deny that right.
There are many ways you can show your support: telephone your TD at Dail Eireann, write to your TD; remember you don't need to put a stamp on the envelope, and, tonight at 6 O'Clock come to the Headquarters of Radio Nova at 19 Herbert Street and show your solidarity. If you can't get to Herbert Street then at 6 O'Clock, blow your car horn and blow it long and loud.
The answer is in your hands, don't let us down.

SimonMaher · 16-11-2019 8:36pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I can't see how a load of new DAB channels could be financially viable. I'm as frustrated as anyone that the choice of music stations on FM is so poor outside of Dublin. But I'm not sure how many more stations such a small market could realistically support. TXFM didn't last and it was a niche station. All that DAB would do now is split the audience and eat into a pie that is already shrinking.

I'm staying out of this debate as much as possible because it melts my brain and more importantly because there are peoples actual real life jobs involved but I'm just going to touch really briefly on a couple of bits:

1) I don't buy the fragmenting a shrinking pie argument for one second. Interestingly, in the UK where there are hundreds of extra stations of all sizes from niche DAB on a Minmux to national brands launched in the last 10 years, radio listening has remained stable and revenue has grown year on year. Pretty much the opposite of what has happened here.

2) Nor do I buy the "market can't sustain" argument. What are people basing this on? Presumably the line of argument is based around stations operating on a scale which may have suited to 2002 rather than 2019? Business models change to suit changing market conditions all the time. Why on earth should or would radio be any different?

3) Final one is from experience. Don't presume that just because an operator says they are stopping a platform that they actually will and don't presume that the platform will die as a result. Strangely enough, I think that recent events (including the arrival of FreeDab) might actually be the spark that will speed the development of DAB here. It might work, it might not but that is no reason not to try surely?

Simon
8Radio.com

end of the road · 16-11-2019 8:40pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

How many listeners would you see a viable station needing to have?

we don't currently have a radio market, or the ability for stations to determine their business model, so it's not possible to say with certainty what such a number would be.
only upon such conditions being allowed to exist, would we be able to see the actual necessary costs of running a station, for which we could then truely gauge.
there would be no point in me plucking figures out of thin air.

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 8:41pm

The reality is the general public wouldn't support new services by listening. The original 4fm should have been a massive success, particularly in Dublin.

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 8:46pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

I'm staying out of this debate as much as possible because it melts my brain and more importantly because there are peoples actual real life jobs involved but I'm just going to touch really briefly on a couple of bits:

1) I don't buy the fragmenting a shrinking pie argument for one second. Interestingly, in the UK where there are hundreds of extra stations of all sizes from niche DAB on a Minmux to national brands launched in the last 10 years, radio listening has remained stable and revenue has grown year on year. Pretty much the opposite of what has happened here.

2) Nor do I buy the "market can't sustain" argument. What are people basing this on? Presumably the line of argument is based around stations operating on a scale which may have suited to 2002 rather than 2019? Business models change to suit changing market conditions all the time. Why on earth should or would radio be any different?

3) Final one is from experience. Don't presume that just because an operator says they are stopping a platform that they actually will and don't presume that the platform will die as a result. Strangely enough, I think that recent events (including the arrival of FreeDab) might actually be the spark that will speed the development of DAB here. It might work, it might not but that is no reason not to try surely?

Simon
8Radio.com

There has been a consequence tho to radio deregulation in the UK. Local independent stations have been completely destroyed

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 8:56pm

Imagine if Galway bay FM, Midwest, Clare FM, ocean etc were replaced by a relay of 98fm from Dublin and if 98fm then slashed staff and used more and more automation. Well that's exactly the equivalent of what's actually happened to local radio in Britian.

lengon · 16-11-2019 9:09pm

Former Former wrote: »

We already have exactly as many of these as the market wants.

How do you know?

end of the road · 16-11-2019 9:11pm

Foxy wolf wrote: »

The reality is the general public wouldn't support new services by listening. The original 4fm should have been a massive success, particularly in Dublin.

it's not necessarely the reality in general.
it is under the existing model yes, but under a low cost model, then things may indeed be very very different, but we won't know until we actually give it a try.
4fm and it's history is certainly an interesting discussion of it's own, but realistically it probably was always going to end up as it did, even if it was a massive success.
all the presenters it had would have added up to quite the cost i would imagine alone.

Foxy wolf wrote: »

There has been a consequence tho to radio deregulation in the UK. Local independent stations have been completely destroyed

some of those local stations were going to go anyway.
the mistake made in the uk was that they didn't just let stations close and let new operators apply for the licenses.
instead they allowed national brands via the back door just to keep stations on air hense there is the mess of multiple relays of the same thing.

Former Former · 16-11-2019 9:41pm

lengon wrote: »

How do you know?

If anyone wants to argue with me that there is sufficient interest for a radio station broadcasting jazz to be commercially viable in Ireland, then I honestly wouldn't know how to respond to that. Or musicals?? Come on.

lengon · 16-11-2019 10:04pm

Former Former wrote: »

If anyone wants to argue with me that there is sufficient interest for a radio station broadcasting jazz to be commercially viable in Ireland, then I honestly wouldn't know how to respond to that. Or musicals?? Come on.

It depends what the costs are and in the UK the low-cost minimuxes allow community stations to broadcast. I mentioned musicals as just an example but since you took me up on that I'd reply by saying that there is one such station on a county multiplex and one of the largest radio groups, Bauer, is opening another next week on the London one.

Whenever an organisation tries to prevent competition it puts forward the argument that there's no room in the market.

SimonMaher · 16-11-2019 10:14pm

The reason I (try to) stay out of these debates is that we seem to go around in endless circles talking about platforms (whether that's DAB or FM or Online or whatever) when all that really matters is providing radio that people want to hear. Whether "people" is a few thousand for a Jazz station or an Indie station or a 70s station or a hundred thousand for a CHR station or whatever really doesn't matter.

Put simply, if I know that my realistic potential audience is (for example) 10,000 then I build my business model around that. If my potential revenue for those 10,000 listeners (across whatever platforms!) is (for example) 200k a year then, as with any other business in the world, I have to make sure my costs are 199,999 maximum. I get a small business that survives and the listeners get the content they want. This ain't rocket science lads.

If we produce compelling radio (for large or small audiences) then people will (or won't!) tune in and that's how business works. "Commercial Viability" in the way that it is used by the protectionists in an industry that is slowly strangling itself in Ireland is an utter red herring that, up to now, has been unquestioningly accepted as "fact".

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf · 16-11-2019 10:24pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

The reason I (try to) stay out of these debates is that we seem to go around in endless circles talking about platforms (whether that's DAB or FM or Online or whatever) when all that really matters is providing radio that people want to hear. Whether "people" is a few thousand for a Jazz station or an Indie station or a 70s station or a hundred thousand for a CHR station or whatever really doesn't matter.

Put simply, if I know that my realistic potential audience is (for example) 10,000 then I build my business model around that. If my potential revenue for those 10,000 listeners (across whatever platforms!) is (for example) 200k a year then, as with any other business in the world, I have to make sure my costs are 199,999 maximum. I get a small business that survives and the listeners get the content they want. This ain't rocket science lads.

If we produce compelling radio (for large or small audiences) then people will (or won't!) tune in and that's how business works. "Commercial Viability" in the way that it is used by the protectionists in an industry that is slowly strangling itself in Ireland is an utter red herring that, up to now, has been unquestioningly accepted as "fact".

Simon
8Radio.com

Ok, but who is going to pay for the rollout of dab to every every town, city, parish, highway and byway of the country?

SimonMaher · 17-11-2019 12:26am

Foxy wolf wrote: »

Ok, but who is going to pay for the rollout of dab to every every town, city, parish, highway and byway of the country?

Back to the same point again. This excludes any obligations that RTE may have in terms of coverage (present or future).

Private MUX holders would presumably tailor their DAB offering to reach the maximum amount of customers at the minimum possible cost. So, they will pay to reach the large/medium population centres, motorways etc and anywhere else they are obliged by licence to cover. If they can make a go of that and pick up the required customers to pay for it, then we're good to go. If they can't, then they won't.

What exactly are we afraid of here?

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf · 17-11-2019 1:09am

Boards posters certainly wouldn't be happy unless dab matched FM coverage

francie81 · 17-11-2019 3:24am

Start with scrapping 2FM first the world can live without the likes of beeber whining in the ears all day.

Former Former · 17-11-2019 10:01am

SimonMaher wrote: »

Back to the same point again. This excludes any obligations that RTE may have in terms of coverage (present or future).

Private MUX holders would presumably tailor their DAB offering to reach the maximum amount of customers at the minimum possible cost. So, they will pay to reach the large/medium population centres, motorways etc and anywhere else they are obliged by licence to cover. If they can make a go of that and pick up the required customers to pay for it, then we're good to go. If they can't, then they won't.

What exactly are we afraid of here?

Simon
8Radio.com

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

lengon · 17-11-2019 10:26am

Former Former wrote: »

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

Foxy wolf · 17-11-2019 10:34am

lengon wrote: »

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

No other countries have death notices on the radio either. Comparing Ireland's radio landscape to another is pointless.

Former Former · 17-11-2019 10:58am

lengon wrote: »

So what is it about Ireland that it can't do what so many other countries can?

I guess it depends on the country but generally a combination of market forces (population and population density) and government decisions to push a switchover. We have neither: the first is never going to happen and the ship has sailed on the second, rightly or wrongly.

The other issue is that other DAB networks predate the absolute behemoth that is mobile internet. If these other countries were starting from scratch in 2020, would they still go with DAB?

SimonMaher · 17-11-2019 11:31am

Former Former wrote: »

We're not afraid of anything. We're talking about the realistic prospects of any of this actually happening. If it does happen, well that's awesome.

You're talking about "private MUX holders" - that's the big unknown, who's going to pony up the cash to a) build a national network, b) educate the public that it exists and c) convince them that DAB is so good that it's worth buying new hardware.

That's a LOT of money before you've even got one listener.

So then you ask, what sort of service is going to attract enough listeners to give me a return? It can't be niche services with a tiny audience.

I just can't see how it is going to happen.

Let's make this one really straightforward then.

Former Former, do you honestly believe that if DAB Multiplex Licences covering the major urban areas were offered in the morning that nobody would apply?

Former raised the point so that's why I'm asking him directly but the same question also goes to the other (generally newly registered) users who have been posting about it in the absolutist way that only the internet allows

Simon
8Radio.com

Foxy wolf · 17-11-2019 11:56am

The CEO of radio Nova recently came out of the woodwork pretending to care about DAB when he refused the opportunity to Broadcast his 3 stations on DAB in cork for 50 quid a week last year.

Former Former · 17-11-2019 1:26pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

Let's make this one really straightforward then.

Former Former, do you honestly believe that if DAB Multiplex Licences covering the major urban areas were offered in the morning that nobody would apply?

Former raised the point so that's why I'm asking him directly but the same question also goes to the other (generally newly registered) users who have been posting about it in the absolutist way that only the internet allows

Simon
8Radio.com

I believe people would apply for licences, yes. I don't think I've ever said no one would apply.

The point is that a multiplex is a tiny, tiny fraction of what is required to make DAB viable.

RTÉ to cease DAB broadcasting

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