Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

lbj666 · 30-09-2020 7:34pm

We've the dilemma of trying to fill 2 rooms in our house share, well the landlord really but we've a vested interest. Double at 750 and box room in 650 in Dublin 4 very nice location near the strand. Its a really nice house with tonnes of room, and looks a little bit cheaper than other places in the area are asking. My thoughts are we should be ok given that its a bit cheaper, tonnes of room to work from home and the move from to a nicer area would be appealing. It seems pokey apartments city centre are struggling.

Am i being naive?

redarmyblues · 30-09-2020 7:49pm

Vieira82 wrote: »

there's no need of a VPN at all. All you need is an Irish Address, how will anyone in revenue check if x, y and z employee was not in that shack in Longford working from home? Doubt they could go and check all the internal logins to systems by employees of any company and if that is even legal or in the legislation? Seems like a gap to me. If there's legislation on this then I stand corrected.

If you claim to be tax resident or domiciled in Ireland, Revenue can ask for documentary proof by writing to the Longford shack and requesting ESB, Bill, Rent book, bank statements etc. The Children's allowance and other DSP sections regularly write to clients at their provided address and ask them to return witnessed and signed forms. Furthermore if the FANGS says FANGSerf must be in ROI, the BIG BROTHER department of the relevant company will be able to find out whether by the simple expedient of tracking the company phone of the FANGSerf or texting the personal phone without using +353 in phone number or whatever. Anybody who has worked for these organisations will tell you who always feel under surveillance.

salonfire · 30-09-2020 7:53pm

There's surely other ways the company could ask you to confirm you are in Ireland as well like randomly asking to send in a photo of today's paper or an in-date carton of milk.

Ozark707 · 30-09-2020 7:56pm

lbj666 wrote: »

We've the dilemma of trying to fill 2 rooms in our house share, well the landlord really but we've a vested interest. Double at 750 and box room in 650 in Dublin 4 very nice location near the strand. Its a really nice house with tonnes of room, and looks a little bit cheaper than other places in the area are asking. My thoughts are we should be ok given that its a bit cheaper, tonnes of room to work from home and the move from to a nicer area would be appealing. It seems pokey apartments city centre are struggling.

Am i being naive?

I have seen rooms in D4 having to reduce the rent recently. I think it is a good idea going in slightly under market rate as you are likely to get more replies thus allowing you to select who you want, as opposed to keeping it high and getting a smaller number of replies thus reducing your choice. I made this mistake many years ago and thoroughly regretted it within 2 days of the new person moving in.

LawBoy2018 · 30-09-2020 7:57pm

awec wrote: »

Yes.

There are the obvious tax issues for the individual, as they are neither tax compliant in Ireland nor in the country they are living in. There are obvious tax implications for the employer.

There are also legal implications for the employer. Depending on your job, if you are based in another country, even within the EU, then your employer may have to restrict you from doing certain tasks, working on certain projects or accessing particular data.

This notion that you can just stick on a VPN and sure nobody will really care is properly stupid stuff.

Hook it to my veins.

Pelezico · 30-09-2020 9:06pm

redarmyblues wrote: »

If you claim to be tax resident or domiciled in Ireland, Revenue can ask for documentary proof by writing to the Longford shack and requesting ESB, Bill, Rent book, bank statements etc. The Children's allowance and other DSP sections regularly write to clients at their provided address and ask them to return witnessed and signed forms. Furthermore if the FANGS says FANGSerf must be in ROI, the BIG BROTHER department of the relevant company will be able to find out whether by the simple expedient of tracking the company phone of the FANGSerf or texting the personal phone without using +353 in phone number or whatever. Anybody who has worked for these organisations will tell you who always feel under surveillance.

People can move to another country for several months without it impacting their residence. I believe it is six months but am not absolutely sure.

Assetbacked · 30-09-2020 9:30pm

Pelezico wrote: »

People can move to another country for several months without it impacting their residence. I believe it is six months but am not absolutely sure.

Without being a tax expert, I assume there are different rules for the MNC and for the employees regarding tax residency.

I'm not sure whether there is a benefit to the Revenue to punish companies and employees who pay tax in Ireland. The issue might arise from other countries who feel a company or employee is tax resident in their country so should be taxed there.

Timing belt · 30-09-2020 9:39pm

Assetbacked wrote: »

Without being a tax expert, I assume there are different rules for the MNC and for the employees regarding tax residency.

I'm not sure whether there is a benefit to the Revenue to punish companies and employees who pay tax in Ireland. The issue might arise from other countries who feel a company or employee is tax resident in their country so should be taxed there.

You are correct... if an employee is living in a different country then the company need to comply with the laws in that country as it can be argued that a branch has been set up and therefore making the company liable to tax or a fine for a breach of regulation.

The issue is not really about the individual’s tax (although that could be an issue for the individual). There are lots of countries in Europe that would love a chunk of the MNC’s tax and this opens the door for it.

Mr Hindley · 01-10-2020 8:46am

So, er, back to actual rents... This came up yesterday, 2-bed house in Foxrock for 1900, and the owner crying out for a deal. There's no way that would have been offer on that price even a month ago, I reckon.

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-rent/foxrock/hedgerows-foxrock-village-foxrock-dublin-2071690/?utm_campaign=property_alert_email_residential_to_let&utm_medium=email&ea=1&utm_source=property_alert

awec · 01-10-2020 9:12am

Assetbacked wrote: »

Without being a tax expert, I assume there are different rules for the MNC and for the employees regarding tax residency.

I'm not sure whether there is a benefit to the Revenue to punish companies and employees who pay tax in Ireland. The issue might arise from other countries who feel a company or employee is tax resident in their country so should be taxed there.

The companies can get R+D tax benefits for work done in Ireland. If the person doing the work is not in Ireland, they can no longer get those tax benefits.

The_Conductor · 01-10-2020 9:17am

awec wrote: »

The companies can get R+D tax benefits for work done in Ireland. If the person doing the work is not in Ireland, they can no longer get those tax benefits.

Those benefits are even more generous in many other EU countries- which is why despite high headline corporation tax rates in Spain, Portugal, Greece and France- their effective rates of taxation are very often lower than Ireland. This is despite France etc kicking and screaming over Ireland's 12.5% corporation tax rate. Its nuts- but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

France is among the most stark of examples.

awec · 01-10-2020 9:20am

The_Conductor wrote: »

Those benefits are even more generous in many other EU countries- which is why despite high headline corporation tax rates in Spain, Portugal, Greece and France- their effective rates of taxation are very often lower than Ireland. This is despite France etc kicking and screaming over Ireland's 12.5% corporation tax rate. Its nuts- but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

France is among the most stark of examples.

It is an extensive, costly and quite frankly total pain in the arse process to claim the tax benefits for R+D. It takes ages, and it requires a lot of documentation including details on all employees who contributed to the work you are claiming against. It is such a pain in the arse that the consultancy firms like KPMG etc actually offer it as a service, where they will come in and help fill in the documentation by meeting with the employees. It can take multiple iterations back and forth, and takes many, many months. Eventually it'll be presented to Revenue for review.

It would not be viable to have to claim those credits in multiple countries for a given project. It would take forever.

Melanchthon · 01-10-2020 10:30am

The_Conductor wrote: »

Those benefits are even more generous in many other EU countries- which is why despite high headline corporation tax rates in Spain, Portugal, Greece and France- their effective rates of taxation are very often lower than Ireland. This is despite France etc kicking and screaming over Ireland's 12.5% corporation tax rate. Its nuts- but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

France is among the most stark of examples.

Costs a lot to have French employees and they are very inflexible/have a huge amount of protections. Multinationals might end up moving staff out of dublin but it won't be to business unfriendly France.

timetogo1 · 01-10-2020 10:38am

Melanchthon wrote: »

Costs a lot to have French employees and they are very inflexible/have a huge amount of protections. Multinationals might end up moving staff out of dublin but it won't be to business unfriendly France.

That's a good point. I worked in a company where some staff were hired in Dublin and then were based in France for a while. They sued to be treated under French employment law and won. Later, one Christmas, when the company was giving bonuses they were giving us One4All vouchers as they're tax free in Ireland. They weren't tax free in France. So the French staff wanted more bonus so they'd get the same amount tax free. So our company gave up on the vouchers and just paid everybody the same through payroll.

No company is going to want that head ache with people spread in multiple countries.

01-10-2020 10:39am

Mr Hindley wrote: »

So, er, back to actual rents... This came up yesterday, 2-bed house in Foxrock for 1900, and the owner crying out for a deal. There's no way that would have been offer on that price even a month ago, I reckon.

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/houses-for-rent/foxrock/hedgerows-foxrock-village-foxrock-dublin-2071690/?utm_campaign=property_alert_email_residential_to_let&utm_medium=email&ea=1&utm_source=property_alert

BER rating D1.

Ozark707 · 01-10-2020 11:29am

Deleted User wrote: »

BER rating D1.

Still seems expensive for what you are getting.

jr1543 · 01-10-2020 1:40pm

Timing belt wrote: »

You are correct... if an employee is living in a different country then the company need to comply with the laws in that country as it can be argued that a branch has been set up and therefore making the company liable to tax or a fine for a breach of regulation.

The issue is not really about the individual’s tax (although that could be an issue for the individual). There are lots of countries in Europe that would love a chunk of the MNC’s tax and this opens the door for it.

This can't be right if you want to login for a few days from elsewhere inside EU.
I understand this being the case if it is for long period but not for 1 week.
That would be unsustainable to control, report, review and what not, even to forbid as well.
Surely thats the reason why a lot of companies are allowing people to do it for a short period atm.

Mr Hindley · 01-10-2020 1:59pm

jr1543 wrote: »

This can't be right if you want to login for a few days from elsewhere inside EU.
I understand this being the case if it is for long period but not for 1 week.
That would be unsustainable to control, report, review and what not, even to forbid as well.
Surely thats the reason why a lot of companies are allowing people to do it for a short period atm.

Might it be a question of tax residency - as long as you spend at least 6 months or more in Ireland in a given tax year, then you're resident in Ireland for both tax and employment law purposes. But if you spend longer than 6 months abroad in a tax year, that's when the complications kick in, which is why the MNCs are now laying down the law? That's a bit of a guess on my part, though.

Timing belt · 01-10-2020 4:10pm

jr1543 wrote: »

This can't be right if you want to login for a few days from elsewhere inside EU.
I understand this being the case if it is for long period but not for 1 week.
That would be unsustainable to control, report, review and what not, even to forbid as well.
Surely thats the reason why a lot of companies are allowing people to do it for a short period atm.

It depends on what the job is and whether it is regulated. Certain roles in the finance sector can’t sell from a foreign location even if they are over on business for one day.

Claw Hammer · 01-10-2020 4:52pm

Mr Hindley wrote: »

Might it be a question of tax residency - as long as you spend at least 6 months or more in Ireland in a given tax year, then you're resident in Ireland for both tax and employment law purposes. But if you spend longer than 6 months abroad in a tax year, that's when the complications kick in, which is why the MNCs are now laying down the law? That's a bit of a guess on my part, though.

The 6 months provisions deal with individuals and their place of tax residency. The issue for the major employers is about where the work is being done not what the tax residency of their staff is.

brisan · 01-10-2020 5:13pm

Pelezico wrote: »

People can move to another country for several months without it impacting their residence. I believe it is six months but am not absolutely sure.

I think to be tax resident you must spend 183 days in Ireland ,or maybe to be not tax resident you must spend more than 183 days outside the country
However if your company says you must be permanently domiciled in Ireland I do not think you have any say in the matter

Yyhhuuu · 01-10-2020 10:59pm

brisan wrote: »

I think to be tax resident you must spend 183 days in Ireland ,or maybe to be not tax resident you must spend more than 183 days outside the country
However if your company says you must be permanently domiciled in Ireland I do not think you have any say in the matter

Don't confuse Domicile with tax residency. Domicile of Origin i.e. the Domicile you are born with -the Domicile of your father, is quite difficult to alter.

Dav010 · 03-10-2020 8:26am

Interesting article.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/housing-crisis-will-become-a-monster-unless-the-state-kills-it-now-1.4369551?mode=amp

cgcsb · 05-10-2020 9:16pm

Couldn't help but notice there's still a few, what I call 'comedy ads' up on daft. Pure arm chancing sort of stuff that you can only laugh at. This one's a hum dinger. You pay €700pm for a studio (possibly not a bad studio, hard to tell without pics) but you can only be there Monday to Friday. Presumably because someone else lives there the rest of the time ðŸ˜‚ these folks are in dire need of a 'market correction' and I hope it does happen.

https://touch.daft.ie/for-rent/studio-apartment-phibsboro-phibsborough-co-dublin/2592978

Hubertj · 05-10-2020 9:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Couldn't help but notice there's still a few, what I call 'comedy ads' up on daft. Pure arm chancing sort of stuff that you can only laugh at. This one's a hum dinger. You pay €700pm for a studio (possibly not a bad studio, hard to tell without pics) but you can only be there Monday to Friday. Presumably because someone else lives there the rest of the time &#55357;&#56834; these folks are in dire need of a 'market correction' and I hope it does happen.

https://touch.daft.ie/for-rent/studio-apartment-phibsboro-phibsborough-co-dublin/2592978

What is it - a room at the back of someone’s garden? Sounds like they don’t really want to rent it but will if some sucker will pay that!?!

Dav010 · 05-10-2020 9:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Couldn't help but notice there's still a few, what I call 'comedy ads' up on daft. Pure arm chancing sort of stuff that you can only laugh at. This one's a hum dinger. You pay €700pm for a studio (possibly not a bad studio, hard to tell without pics) but you can only be there Monday to Friday. Presumably because someone else lives there the rest of the time ðŸ˜‚ these folks are in dire need of a 'market correction' and I hope it does happen.

https://touch.daft.ie/for-rent/studio-apartment-phibsboro-phibsborough-co-dublin/2592978

Did you read the ad?

LawBoy2018 · 05-10-2020 9:59pm

I can't believe the amount of money I'm saving in lockdown, living at home. Realistically, I can't see rents reducing longterm until there's a substantial increase in supply, which is years away. Fingers crossed remote working becomes a thing permanently.

cgcsb · 05-10-2020 10:14pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Did you read the ad?

Yes

Dav010 · 05-10-2020 10:46pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes

It’s a studio apartment in someone’s house. €700 per month in Dublin 7, including utilities, and looks like a nice place. Some people don’t want to stay weekends, and if they find a place that costs half what it might cost for 7 days, everyone is a winner.

Isn’t that pretty close to Grangegorman Campus?

cgcsb · 06-10-2020 9:52am

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s a studio apartment in someone’s house. €700 per month in Dublin 7, including utilities, and looks like a nice place. Some people don’t want to stay weekends, and if they find a place that costs half what it might cost for 7 days, everyone is a winner.

Isn’t that pretty close to Grangegorman Campus?

So you basically couldn't even keep your personal things there because some stranger would be routing around in them. No way to live and an absolutely unreasonable condition. It isn't half the price of nearby studios.

Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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