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Leaving Cert 2021

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  • 06-07-2020 3:51pm
    #1
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭


    What sort of accommodations/ amendments would you like to see made for the class of 2021 to make up for the loss in face to face teaching time? Or does anyone feel there’s no need?

    If any changes to the exams are going to be made, I’d really like to know about it in September and not have it brought in later when I have a part of the course covered that I could have left out.

    I’d like to see more choice on certain sections of my exam papers, so that 1 topic could be left out entirely. Choice on the paper would make an even playing field rather than eliminating a topic that some may have covered.

    Who should I be writing to about this? I don’t know is it a union issue, since it’s for the benefit of students rather than teachers.


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    #2
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,130 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Are they not all in the same boat?


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    #3
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    spurious wrote: »
    Are they not all in the same boat?

    Yes, more or less. But some may have had issues with online learning, so they have catching up to do next year.

    I don’t see any harm in giving a bit of choice/more choice on exam papers so that they can leave a topic out.


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    #4
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Random sample wrote: »
    Yes, more or less. But some may have had issues with online learning, so they have catching up to do next year.

    I don’t see any harm in giving a bit of choice/more choice on exam papers so that they can leave a topic out.

    Initially I would have said choice, but that could push a lot of students into hgher grades... skew the curve and all that.


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    #5
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    I really don't think they're all in the same boat. Many schools did full on classes all day following their timetable, while others disappeared off the side of the world, but most were probably somewhere in the middle.

    They're not all equal though, never were to begin with either.


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    #6
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    I really don't think they're all in the same boat. Many schools did full on classes all day following their timetable, while others disappeared off the side of the world, but most were probably somewhere in the middle.

    They're not all equal though, never were to begin with either.

    The effectiveness of live classes without proper training of teachers and students is also questionable. Effective live teaching online requires a lot of preparation from the teacher and it also requires high levels of self directed participation. If anyone has watched/participated in a webinar they will be aware of the pitfalls of 'live classes'. At the same time obviously there were some teachers who were exceptional and some students were excellent at participating.


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    #7
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    You shouldn’t be leaving stuff out anyway, if it’s on the course.

    I’m predicting that when the department of finance sees how much was saved by not having any exams this year, we’ve going to start hearing a lot of “didn’t predicted grades work great last year though”.
    Hopefully, litigation will balance out that saving, but I imagine it won’t.


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    #8
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    RealJohn wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be leaving stuff out anyway, if it’s on the course.

    I’m predicting that when the department of finance sees how much was saved by not having any exams this year, we’ve going to start hearing a lot of “didn’t predicted grades work great last year though”.
    Hopefully, litigation will balance out that saving, but I imagine it won’t.

    What becomes of the State Examinations Commission then if predicted grades become more common place? A much more scaled down version focused just on Junior Cycle?


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    #9
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Random sample


    RealJohn wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be leaving stuff out anyway, if it’s on the course.

    I’m predicting that when the department of finance sees how much was saved by not having any exams this year, we’ve going to start hearing a lot of “didn’t predicted grades work great last year though”.
    Hopefully, litigation will balance out that saving, but I imagine it won’t.

    The alternative this year will be to rush through topics, I don’t think that’s a superior option.

    I don’t think this will be the end of the leaving cert.


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    #10
    lmullen
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭lmullen


    Ag Science has a project that should have started early in 5th year but we didn't get the brief till Christmas. CPD wasn't provided until March - I assume some teachers did not get their CPD due to Lockdown. Students taking this subject have effectively missed out on a year for their project so this needs to be amended in some way.


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    #11
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    It would be easy enough to put one extra poet on the English exam paper, which would mean that if a class had only four poets covered they would still be ok for the exam. This would free up some time next year. Maybe put all three comparative modes on the paper too? This would also free up a little time. Something similar could probably happen with other subjects. Put extra questions on the exam paper so there's more choice.

    I don't think for one moment that all students are in the same boat. Broadly speaking the gaps that already existed were widened. Students that come from homes were education is supported were at an even greater advantage than they would usually be. If they came from homes with the resources to provide laptops for each of their children, or where parents did a little bit of hovering to make sure work was being done they were at a huge advantage. Some of my 5th years began working full time in Dunnes as soon as the schools closed and didn't engage at all with online learning. Communication from their parents suggests the opportunity to earn extra money for the household was too important to pass up.


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    #12
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    RealJohn wrote: »
    You shouldn’t be leaving stuff out anyway, if it’s on the course.

    That's just not practical in reality though. In HL English you need to cover 30 poems to be mathematically safe for the exam (6 poems by 5 poets.) On the course are 80 poems (10 poems by 8 poets). They only answer on one poet in the exam.
    No class would thank you for covering all the material. It doesn't make sense to spend all that time on poetry when it's a smallish section of the paper. (Prescribed poetry is 50 marks out of 400.) I usually do 6 poets and try to cover 8 poems each, but only if there's time.
    This is why it makes sense to add an extra poetry Q to the paper. It would mean less time spent on something that's not going to be asked in the exam.


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    #13
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    What becomes of the State Examinations Commission then if predicted grades become more common place? A much more scaled down version focused just on Junior Cycle?

    Just to be clear, we are not having a system of "predicted grades" this year. We are having calculated grades, based on school predictions and previous years' performances in actual exams. That cannot be repeated, unless we are happy that a school's results in a particular subject would be based in perpetuity on their 2017-2019 results.


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    #14
    joeharte123
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭joeharte123


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    Just to be clear, we are not having a system of "predicted grades" this year. We are having calculated grades, based on school predictions and previous years' performances in actual exams. That cannot be repeated, unless we are happy that a school's results in a particular subject would be based in perpetuity on their 2017-2019 results.

    True. This won’t happen again. If it was to continue to happen you'll have students ultimately receiving higher grades based on the school they have attended rather than merit of their individual work.


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    #15
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    Just to be clear, we are not having a system of "predicted grades" this year. We are having calculated grades, based on school predictions and previous years' performances in actual exams. That cannot be repeated, unless we are happy that a school's results in a particular subject would be based in perpetuity on their 2017-2019 results.

    What calculations did you use to arrive at the grade?


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    #16
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    Treppen wrote: »
    What calculations did you use to arrive at the grade?

    Teachers did the predicting. The DES are doing the subsequent calculating. That's why they are called calculated grades.


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    #17
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    Teachers did the predicting. The DES are doing the subsequent calculating. That's why they are called calculated grades.

    Is every grade calculated by the DES?


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    #18
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    Treppen wrote: »
    Is every grade calculated by the DES?

    Every result is part of the calculation process. Clearly many results will change grade during the calculation process. Some results may change marks but not change grades. There will probably be some that don't even change marks - but even these results will be part of the calculation process and will have an effect on the determination of other results.

    My points are that (a) they are called calculated grades, not predicted grades and - much more importantly - (b) the nature of the calculations (comparisons with the results of previous years' actual exam results) are such that this process can't simply be repeated forever more. What is your point?


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    #19
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    Every result is part of the calculation process. Clearly many results will change grade during the calculation process. Some results may change marks but not change grades. There will probably be some that don't even change marks - but even these results will be part of the calculation process and will have an effect on the determination of other results.

    My points are that (a) they are called calculated grades, not predicted grades and - much more importantly - (b) the nature of the calculations (comparisons with the results of previous years' actual exam results) are such that this process can't simply be repeated forever more. What is your point?

    My point is that they are NOT calculated grades, despite what they are being called. Calculated grade terminology was cooked up to lend credence to the process.


    Unless you consider this process valid:

    Predicted Grade + Zero Change = Calculated Grade

    Or

    Predicted Grade + Change because of some other students grade in 2019,2018,2017 = Calculated Grade

    I agree that this process won't be repeated again... although I'll reserve judgement for a couple of years.


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    #20
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    Treppen wrote: »
    My point is that they are NOT calculated grades, despite what they are being called. Calculated grade terminology was cooked up to lend credence to the process.


    Unless you consider this process valid:

    Predicted Grade + Zero Change = Calculated Grade

    Or

    Predicted Grade + Change because of some other students grade in 2019,2018,2017 = Calculated Grade

    I agree that this process won't be repeated again... although I'll reserve judgement for a couple of years.

    I never said it was valid. But it is calculated.


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    #21
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    I never said it was valid. But it is calculated.

    I'm not asking if you ever said it was valid.

    I'm asking do you now think this [below] is a valid presentation of 'calculated' grades.

    Predicted Grade + Zero Change = Calculated Grade

    Or

    Predicted Grade + Change because of some other students grade in 2019,2018,2017 = Calculated Grade


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    #22
    Purefrank128
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Purefrank128


    Treppen wrote: »
    I'm not asking if you ever said it was valid.

    I'm asking do you now think this [below] is a valid presentation of 'calculated' grades.

    Predicted Grade + Zero Change = Calculated Grade

    Or

    Predicted Grade + Change because of some other students grade in 2019,2018,2017 = Calculated Grade

    No, I don't. The change can be because of others students grades in 2020, both in the same school and/or in the country. The calculated grade can even take notice of JC results if they justify apparent anomalies. All of this was explained.

    I'm not saying that it's a good system, or a valid one, or that I like it. I think LC exams should have happened. But the system, even by your own analysis above, is one rooted in additions and subtractions, i.e. calculations. I don't know (or really care) how sophisticated those calculations are, but that's what it is.


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    #23
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,566 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Purefrank128 wrote: »
    No, I don't. The change can be because of others students grades in 2020, both in the same school and/or in the country. The calculated grade can even take notice of JC results if they justify apparent anomalies. All of this was explained.

    I'm not saying that it's a good system, or a valid one, or that I like it. I think LC exams should have happened. But the system, even by your own analysis above, is one rooted in additions and subtractions, i.e. calculations. I don't know (or really care) how sophisticated those calculations are, but that's what it is.

    Well I agree that it's not a good system.
    My point is that the extra bit in the 'formula for calculated grades' is pure bull5hit and doesn't give a fair grade (Mainly because we just can't predict the future). It's as fantastical as Minority Report.
    I will never use the word calculated because it attempts to lend credence to the process, which is no more there than if we called it predicted grades.
    Maybe it's a once off.


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    #24
    Bobtheman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    A lot of kids in my school didn't have proper access to IT. Then I didn't have proper training or guidance from the state or my school. I know many schools just went with zoom despite the risks involved.
    Thus I'd be in favour of extra classes for 6th years that are paid for and mandatory. They don't have to be excessive. Say once a week. Dump some croke park hours if needed.
    However I'm also aware that a lot of kids just couldn't be arsed getting involved once schools closed .
    The substitution money should be used and schools allowed some flexibility. Each school can judge if they need them.


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