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The Ethics of PUA

12467…11

Comments

  • #152
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Like I said, I'm only really speaking for myself here. I've never exactly been 'in tune' with your average woman (or your average human being tbh :pac:). I'm the type to have things all equal - if I'm interested I'll go up to a guy, if he's interested then he's more than welcome to come up to me, no waiting between texts or whatever else 'normal' people do. I've never had a relationship that had any kind of power play, even in the beginning - only ever organic beginnings. So it could be true for some women, sure - but my dislike of PUA is because it's just scary to know that there are these manipulation manuals out there and that there's a higher chance now that the person who comes up to me may not be genuine than there was before (obviously there were dishonest people beforehand, but now the section of them who were too socially inept to get anywhere have a handy guide).

    It could be just something I'm hypersensitive to though due to my past, even outside of romance I am terrified of being manipulated. I'm really not sure if my reaction to it/reason for my reaction to it is standard. No other women seem to be replying to the thread either so I guess we'll never know. :pac:

    Honestly I've never seen a relationship where one person didn't hold more power than the other. Maybe you were in power so you just tell yourself it was equal to feel better about yourself?:pac:

    It's like all those hippy communes that tried to remove power systems from their societies. They all failed because in a group of people some will be stronger than others and they will exert this power with out even realizing it. So I'm not calling you a liar about your relationship but at the same time I don't believe you.


  • #153
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Well, I just know that if I was using a bunch of canned lines/manipulation tactics on someone I would feel really guilty for manipulating them and basically making them out to be a fool, that's all.
    Yea okay but I really don't think the guys view it that way so I doubt they feel bad about it.

    Also you say your scared of being manipulated but really so is everyone. In fact I'd say men are far more likely to be manipulated by a woman than the other way around so I do agree with Wolfe that this switches the power structure. Those who benefit by the current system aren't going to like a change which takes away their power.


  • #154
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Honestly I've never seen a relationship where one person didn't hold more power than the other. Maybe you were in power so you just tell yourself it was equal to feel better about yourself?:pac:

    It's like all those hippy communes that tried to remove power systems from their societies. They all failed because in a group of people some will be stronger than others and they will exert this power with out even realizing it. So I'm not calling you a liar about your relationship but at the same time I don't believe you.

    Well, you can believe what you want, but like.. there just wasn't. We just enjoyed each other's company, never tried to engineer a reaction from each other or anything.. it just never worked like that. I'm a direct, honest person with no filter and they were the same type of people. There was no power play, we just saw each other as equals. I find it impossible to believe that that's really that strange.


  • #155
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    liah wrote: »
    Like I said, I'm only really speaking for myself here. I've never exactly been 'in tune' with your average woman (or your average human being tbh :pac:). I'm the type to have things all equal - if I'm interested I'll go up to a guy, if he's interested then he's more than welcome to come up to me, no waiting between texts or whatever else 'normal' people do. I've never had a relationship that had any kind of power play, even in the beginning - only ever organic beginnings. So it could be true for some women, sure - but my dislike of PUA is because it's just scary to know that there are these manipulation manuals out there and that there's a higher chance now that the person who comes up to me may not be genuine than there was before (obviously there were dishonest people beforehand, but now the section of them who were too socially inept to get anywhere have a handy guide).

    It could be just something I'm hypersensitive to though due to my past, even outside of romance I am terrified of being manipulated. I'm really not sure if my reaction to it/reason for my reaction to it is standard. No other women seem to be replying to the thread either so I guess we'll never know. :pac:
    I thought some posters would come along and vilify it utterly and we would have a thread of "down with that sort of thing!" Thankfully that hasn't happened.

    I've a question, see my little story there, what do you think of that? Was he wrong to do that? He manipulated the situation and reversed the roles. If he had have been honest and straightforward he would have been shot down before he had 2 sentences out.


  • #156
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Well, you can believe what you want, but like.. there just wasn't. We just enjoyed each other's company, never tried to engineer a reaction from each other or anything.. it just never worked like that. I'm a direct, honest person with no filter and they were the same type of people. There was no power play, we just saw each other as equals. I find it impossible to believe that that's really that strange.
    I'm not talking about conscious manipulation. Just because you weren't aware of it doesn't mean it wasn't there.


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  • #157
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    I still take issue with the idea of 'manipulation' as implied here. See also: 'deception'.

    To put it into perspective: every man who does not approach a woman and say the words "I would like to have sex with you tonight and possibly continue into a relationship if we both still like each other in the morning," is being both deceptive and manipulative. He is not stating his full intentions up front and trying to alter a situation to suit an end means. But, at the same time, this plan of action would never, ever, EVER work on ANY woman (well...maybe some...but not the kind you'd want it to...)

    So you have to accept that a small amount of leeway is NECESSARY for any copulation to take place. Otherwise the world would end because breeding would become impossible.

    liah, I feel bad for you. I genuinely do. I've been in your shoes trying to defend myself against tons of people MANY times before.

    But I firmly believe the reason you have ended up in this spot is because you've made massively sweeping statements about a lifestyle that you admit you don't fully understand. Calling it creepy, manipulative and deceptive and then refusing, point blank, to do any more homework on the matter.

    The simple reality is that the intentions of pick-up, in its raw form, are as pure as day: to get guys' women. To breed. To continue the earth's cycle. To eventually find love and meaningful relationships. Simple.

    What you have a problem with is fair and I actually agree with you on many points. Some use it for manipulative purposes but they are manipulative people anyway and would likely find another means of achieving the same end if this material didn't exist. Some 'gurus' use it to con innocent, naive guys out of thousands of euros. Some use it just to convince themselves they are experts despite never actually practising what they preach (in the community the term for them is KJs: Keyboard Jockeys). And so on.

    The practise itself is sound, though. You are not more, or admittedly less, likely to encounter a manipulative, deceitful man because this information is out there (they'd try and manipulate you either way). You are, however, more likely to encounter a guy who you previously wouldn't have given time of day to because he has taken steps to make himself appear on your radar now.

    That's the simple reality of this. And if you don't believe me then try this: no woman I have ever been with, and told about PUA (I'm generally quite forthcoming and honest about this), has EVER left or been turned off after I told them. Beforehand, some admitted to have pre-conceived notions about PUAs, but when they saw it in practise through me realised that it was actually a positive step. When some of them saw me helping guys and aiding them in making massive personal jumps, they often asked to help themselves because it was so inspiring to see.

    In short, sometimes what you read or hear about through the wire doesn't give you the full story. While I don't expect you to change your views entirely based on this post or topic, I hope you can leave this discussion with a new sense that maybe your pre-conceived notions were more down to lack of full information than the truth.


  • #158
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I thought some posters would come along and vilify it utterly and we would have a thread of "down with that sort of thing!" Thankfully that hasn't happened.

    I've a question, see my little story there, what do you think of that? Was he wrong to do that? He manipulated the situation and reversed the roles. If he had have been honest and straightforward he would have been shot down before he had 2 sentences out.

    All I know is, if I had been the girl and found out that that's what he had done to get my attention, I would not want to have anything to do with him, because I'm not interested in people who think that way, and I'm not interested in people who feel they're entitled to manipulate people.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I certainly wouldn't want it to be done to me.


  • #159
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    leggo wrote: »
    liah, I feel bad for you. I genuinely do. I've been in your shoes trying to defend myself against tons of people MANY times before.

    I don't need your pity. I just want you to leave me alone like I asked you to do a few times now and I'd like you to respect the fact that I don't want to repeat myself any longer.

    The rest of your post has already been addressed many times so I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of it.


  • #160
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    All I know is, if I had been the girl and found out that that's what he had done to get my attention, I would not want to have anything to do with him, because I'm not interested in people who think that way, and I'm not interested in people who feel they're entitled to manipulate people.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I certainly wouldn't want it to be done to me.
    But the guy who can do it naturally is entitled to manipulate people?


  • #161
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    liah wrote: »
    All I know is, if I had been the girl and found out that that's what he had done to get my attention, I would not want to have anything to do with him, because I'm not interested in people who think that way, and I'm not interested in people who feel they're entitled to manipulate people.

    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I certainly wouldn't want it to be done to me.
    Why? You aren't interested in guys who would go to all that trouble just to talk to you?

    Tbh it sounds like he wouldn't need to do any of it to you anyway as you seem straightforward enough, but that's a rarity.


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  • #162
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    But the guy who can do it naturally is entitled to manipulate people?

    Tbh I probably still wouldn't appreciate the 'tactic,' if he was thinking of it as a tactic.


  • #163
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    You are, however, more likely to encounter a guy who you previously wouldn't have given time of day to because he has taken steps to make himself appear on your radar now.

    You mean it gets the "nice guys" of the "where are all the nice guys?" fame to actually stop standing on the sidelines, ignored and alone, to go and meet and get to talk to women?


  • #164
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    liah wrote: »
    Tbh I probably still wouldn't appreciate the 'tactic,' if he was thinking of it as a tactic.
    Is "I'm going to chat this girl up" not a tactic?


  • #165
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Why? You aren't interested in guys who would go to all that trouble just to talk to you?

    Tbh it sounds like he wouldn't need to do any of it to you anyway as you seem straightforward enough, but that's a rarity.
    I think how that group of girls reacted has anything to do with being straight forward. people can't control who they're attracted to and what that guy did made him more attractive and I'm willing to bet it would also work on Liah.

    People are more attracted to people who are well liked by others. By getting control of a group like that you are showing social skills which are attractive. You are also showing power and influence both of which make you more attractive.

    Making yourself centre of attention in a non-obvious way is also going to make you attractive for the simple fact they are paying more attention to you. They can't find you attractive if they aren't paying you any attention so basically all this guy did was gain attention. Anyone who wants to win someone over is going to have to at least get their attention somehow, I'm not sure how this makes him a bad guy. I also don't see how it's only fine for guys who can do it naturally.

    It would be like not being allowed to study for a test because if you're not naturally smart enough then tough sh1t. By putting in the effort to learn this stuff the guys is showing motivation and ambition.


  • #166
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    liah wrote: »
    I don't need your pity. I just want you to leave me alone like I asked you to do a few times now and I'd like you to respect the fact that I don't want to repeat myself any longer.

    The rest of your post has already been addressed many times so I'm not going to bother replying to the rest of it.

    You haven't actually addressed any of the above points. The only interaction we have had has involved you screaming that I was being disrespectful (even after I clearly stated that I wasn't intending to be and apologised if you had taken it that way) and saying I don't want to repeat myself.

    You won't have to repeat yourself if you just offer up a plausible counterpoint instead of SAYING you don't want to repeat yourself.

    But, hey, it's a nice cop out and excuse to avoid the fact that the problem here is clearly with your own personal hang-ups and not PUA itself. I wish you good luck in your continued case of denial!


  • #167
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You mean it gets the "nice guys" of the "where are all the nice guys?" fame to actually stop standing on the sidelines, ignored and alone, to go and meet and get to talk to women?

    I'm also more likely to encounter a formerly socially inept dishonest person. The problem is, I'm not going to be able to tell the difference, because they're going to be using the same material.

    I'd like it if a guy just approached me and said hello instead of going to some extravagant strategy to try and get my attention, and from what I've heard a lot of girls are more or less the same way.

    I get teaching how to carry conversations forward, how to respond according to what someone says, etc. But it's the intricate strategies and canned lines behind it that are off-putting. They bother me less when they come naturally to a person, because I know they're not intentionally being manipulating, they don't have the mindset of "if I do x+y I'll get z result". It doesn't seem as predatory, and it doesn't seem as dehumanizing.


  • #168
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Tbh I probably still wouldn't appreciate the 'tactic,' if he was thinking of it as a tactic.
    If someone doesn't have any friends they are going to have to come
    up with a tactic to make friends. What's wrong with that?

    I think that just because you never have to put effort into these things you are unfairly judging those who do.


  • #169
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    liah wrote: »
    I'm also more likely to encounter a formerly socially inept dishonest person. The problem is, I'm not going to be able to tell the difference, because they're going to be using the same material.

    I'd like it if a guy just approached me and said hello instead of going to some extravagant strategy to try and get my attention, and from what I've heard a lot of girls are more or less the same way.

    I get teaching how to carry conversations forward, how to respond according to what someone says, etc. But it's the intricate strategies and canned lines behind it that are off-putting. They bother me less when they come naturally to a person, because I know they're not intentionally being manipulating, they don't have the mindset of "if I do x+y I'll get z result". It doesn't seem as predatory, and it doesn't seem as dehumanizing.
    So whats a guy to do? Come over and say "hello, I want to have sex with you" Obviously not.

    In reality, if you are socially awkward or shy, simply walking up to the majority of women and saying hello ain't gonna get you anywhere. That may work if you are attractive or have high social status.

    You have a big hang up on "canned" stuff. Its simply stuff to say. "Can I buy you a drink" is canned.


    Seriously, telling someone to just go up to women and say hello aint gonna get him anywhere, he needs something to say, awkward silence, red face, why look ladies, we have a weirdo.


  • #170
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You mean it gets the "nice guys" of the "where are all the nice guys?" fame to actually stop standing on the sidelines, ignored and alone, to go and meet and get to talk to women?

    It's one positive upside from this. Gives them an ability to actually turn the niceness they are lauded for into something with a backbone that can attract women romantically and sexually.

    In reality, though, the 'nice guys' we speak of are more likely to be 'weak' guys. They are nice because they are pushovers out of fear of rejection. Fear of rejection leads to fear of trying and so on...

    Of course, the flipside is that it can make the sociopathic more sociopathic by giving them a step-by-step guide. But, as I said, the common denominator there is that they WERE sociopathic to begin with. The nature of that condition is that they would have found an alternative route anyway.

    What I love about this, though, is: who is to say that just because you play video games you can't pull a model? Or because you're a blogger/programmer/other-typical-nerdy-job-or-hobby that the hot blonde promo girls are out of your reach? These stereotypes often confine us to a certain sector of society and block us from experiencing the richness and fullness that comes with a life lived in variety. Pick-up helps to break those barriers down while improving quality of life (for BOTH sexes) along the way. :)


  • #171
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    I'd like it if a guy just approached me and said hello instead of going to some extravagant strategy to try and get my attention, and from what I've heard a lot of girls are more or less the same way.
    I'm sorry but this goes back to why you should never listen to a woman on how to pick up women.:D

    If a guy goes up to and says hello he will be like every other guy who guys up to and says hello. It's the guys who stand out like in wolfe tones story who will actually get the girl so why in gods name wouldn't you do that instead of just saying hello.

    If you do just say hello you get accused of being boring btw.


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  • #172
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    You have a big hang up on "canned" stuff. Its simply stuff to say. "Can I buy you a drink" is canned.
    Exactly. Most people have canned questions they ask like where are you from or whatever.
    Seriously, telling someone to just go up to women and say hello aint gonna get him anywhere, he needs something to say, awkward silence, red face, why look ladies, we have a weirdo.
    This is the truth.:D

    At best you will be considered boring at worst she's going back to her mates to warn them off you where as the guy in your story basically has her mates pushing her into him.

    Now which would I rather?:D


  • #173
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    If someone doesn't have any friends they are going to have to come
    up with a tactic to make friends. What's wrong with that?

    I think that just because you never have to put effort into these things you are unfairly judging those who do.

    It's the intent behind the tactic.
    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    So whats a guy to do? Come over and say "hello, I want to have sex with you" Obviously not.

    In reality, if you are socially awkward or shy, simply walking up to the majority of women and saying hello ain't gonna get you anywhere. That may work if you are attractive or have high social status.

    You have a big hang up on "canned" stuff. Its simply stuff to say. "Can I buy you a drink" is canned.


    Seriously, telling someone to just go up to women and say hello aint gonna get him anywhere, he needs something to say, awkward silence, red face, why look ladies, we have a weirdo.

    I'd prefer that because at least I would know straight away he's not the type of person I want to have sex with, because he only sees me as something to have sex with and has no interest in the fact that I'm a person. And I'd probably have a little more respect for him being straightforward, even if he's not the kind of guy I'd want to sleep with.

    I'd be open to something more along the lines of "Hello, you seem interesting, I want to get to know you and maybe we could see where it goes," if it was actually genuine, and he actually did want to get to know me a little more, and it still includes the "see where it goes" for the sex option. E.g. spend the night drinking and if you like each other then sex can happen. But I'm not going to **** someone who's ONLY goal is sex with me.

    I would just be utterly mortified to find out that I'd been sitting there chatting away to a lad all night, thinking he actually, you know, saw me as a person, and was listening to me or interested in what I had to say, then realizing afterward that our entire night was scripted and he only just wanted a hole to put his dick into.

    Also, I already said:
    I get teaching how to carry conversations forward, how to respond according to what someone says, etc.

    That I don't have a problem with.


  • #174
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    It's the intent behind the tactic.
    Yea okay I'm sorry to break it to you but if a guy approached you in a nightclub it's because he wants to have sex with you. Yes I'm speaking on behalf of all guys and I don't care because anyone who denies this is a liar trying to look like a "nice" guy.
    I'd prefer that because at least I would know straight away he's not the type of person I want to have sex with, because he only sees me as something to have sex with and has no interest in the fact that I'm a person. And I'd probably have a little more respect for him being straightforward, even if he's not the kind of guy I'd want to sleep with.
    Respect or a shag? Hmm I wonder which one I'd prefer.:D Honestly people don't go to nightclubs to get to know people.
    I'd be open to something more along the lines of "Hello, you seem interesting, I want to get to know you and maybe we could see where it goes," if it was actually genuine, and he actually did want to get to know me a little more, and it still includes the "see where it goes" for the sex option. E.g. spend the night drinking and if you like each other then sex can happen. But I'm not going to **** someone who's ONLY goal is sex with me.
    This isn't an insult aimed at you but just at anyone in a nightclub. There is absolutely nothing about you that makes you look interesting that someone would want to talk to you. If someone likes the look of you in a nightclub it's for one reason only. Outside of nightclubs things can be different but you are sounding extremely naive if you think any guy who says that in a nightclub means it.
    I would just be utterly mortified to find out that I'd been sitting there chatting away to a lad all night, thinking he actually, you know, saw me as a person, and was listening to me or interested in what I had to say - rather than realizing afterword that our entire night was scripted and he only just wanted a hole to put his dick into.
    Yea okay maybe it is harsh on some girls but tbh I just don't think most girls are as naive as you. They know the score and if their up for a ONS who cares?


  • #175
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Yea okay I'm sorry to break it to you but if a guy approached you in a nightclub it's because he wants to have sex with you. Yes I'm speaking on behalf of all guys and I don't care because anyone who denies this is a liar trying to look like a "nice" guy.

    Then I guess I'll just stop dating guys. I find that really depressing.
    Respect or a shag? Hmm I wonder which one I'd prefer.:D Honestly people don't go to nightclubs to get to know people.

    This isn't restricted to nightclubs.
    This isn't an insult aimed at you but just at anyone in a nightclub. There is absolutely nothing about you that makes you look interesting that someone would want to talk to you. If someone likes the look of you in a nightclub it's for one reason only. Outside of nightclubs things can be different but you are sounding extremely naive if you think any guy who says that in a nightclub means it.

    This isn't restricted to nightclubs.
    Yea okay maybe it is harsh on some girls but tbh I just don't think most girls are as naive as you. They know the score and if their up for a ONS who cares?

    I've had ONS before. I probably did get played, I don't know. I hope I wasn't but according to you all men only want sex and don't actually give a crap about the woman they're having sex with so I guess there's not much hope.

    Either way, I'm done dating guys after this thread tbqfh. Utterly bleak.


  • #176
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I had a big reply typed out, was basically the same as sugerhighs!

    Just on this bit though...
    I would just be utterly mortified to find out that I'd been sitting there chatting away to a lad all night, thinking he actually, you know, saw me as a person, and was listening to me or interested in what I had to say - rather than realizing afterword that our entire night was scripted and he only just wanted a hole to put his dick into.
    He may very well be interested in you, but has used PUA in order to get to talk to you whereas normally he would have been shot down straight away and you wouldn't get to talk to him!

    PUA can help the genuine nice guy get his foot in the door.


  • #177
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,408 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    SugarHigh wrote: »


    Yea okay maybe it is harsh on some girls but tbh I just don't think most girls are as naive as you. They know the score and if their up for a ONS who cares?

    If she's up for an ONS there would be no need for this PUA bull**** in the first place.


  • #178
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    liah wrote: »
    Then I guess I'll just stop dating guys. I find that really depressing.

    Why else would a guy approach you in a nightclub besides the fact that he is sexually attracted to you? Its not like he knows you, literally all he has to go on is your looks. Why would you approach a guy in a club, you know nothing about him. How would he look "interesting" Do you mean "hot" and that you would like to get to know him better?





    I've had ONS before. I probably did get played, I don't know. I hope I wasn't but according to you all men only want sex and don't actually give a crap about the woman they're having sex with so I guess there's not much hope.

    Either way, I'm done dating guys after this thread tbqfh. Utterly bleak.

    Talk about an overreaction.


  • #179
    Red Hand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    liah wrote: »
    I'd be open to something more along the lines of "Hello, you seem interesting, I want to get to know you and maybe we could see where it goes," if it was actually genuine, and he actually did want to get to know me a little more, and it still includes the "see where it goes" for the sex option.

    Only a minority of people could manage saying that without coming across as creepy or making the other person uncomfortable. So the guy sees a girl, comes up to her and says "You seem interesting" etc etc.

    What exactly is "interesting" about her? He doesn't know squat about her if she is a complete stranger, which kind of makes the "interesting" spiel invalid. You can only know if someone is interesting if you have already spoken to them a bit...saying it to a complete stranger seems out of place...and implies that it is just another canned line.

    BTW, that just struck me while I was reading the thread. I've never heard of PUAs before. Interesting thread.


  • #180
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Liah, what do you suggest that the disastrously unsuccessful with women man does then?


    Walking up and saying hello wont work.


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  • #181
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    Either way, I'm done dating guys after this thread tbqfh. Utterly bleak.
    Uh oh.:D

    Seriously though what I said applies mainly to trying to pick up girls in a nightclub that's what I was talking about.

    I'm sure there are guys who genuinely want to get to know women just not in nightclubs. I'm not claiming I'm one of them, I'm not but I've already said I'm quite immature and retarded so don't base too much off what some aspie on the internet says.:D

    I do think however once a guy meets the right girl he would quickly change, I've never met a girl who I had anything emotional for other than wanting sex but that will probably change.


  • #182
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    And thats why nightclubs suck!


  • #183
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    If she's up for an ONS there would be no need for this PUA bull**** in the first place.
    Nonsense because that's how you get her. It's the PUA that impresses her. Read Wolfe Tones story it's the type of story that makes guys get into this stuff. I'm gonna start looking into it.:D


  • #184
    Waking-Dreams
    Closed Accounts Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Waking-Dreams


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Low confidence in a man is pretty much crippling in terms of finding a partner but in a woman it can even be seen as cute. If a guy with low confidence sits in the corner of a pub no one is going to approach him but the woman will still have men coming up to her. She really doesn't have to do anything active socially to be successful socially but if a guy is passive socially he will become isolated.
    Wow, this thread had progressed a bit since earlier today. I’ve added my 2 cents worth and am happy to leave it at that but I just wanted to make this one last point in regard the above quote.

    Yes men’s crippling low confidence will not help them in finding the kind of girl they’ll really like to date (who isn’t a shy female version of themselves) BUT there is a fair trade-off here in which men don’t need to look like Brad Pitt in order to be attractive to women. Lots of short, balding men have turned up to the PUA seminars convinced their lack of success is due to their looks when after some light grooming, a new wardrobe and the personality change (from the learning), they found themselves having more success.

    On the other hand, lads tend to evaluate women mainly on their looks first and foremost and factor the rest of her in afterwards. So the socially shy girl won’t be getting that much attention from guys if she’s also not so good looking. It is a trade-off. Men work on their confidence (with appearance not being such a big deal as they think it is) and women have to look “physically attractive” (and just not be too neurotic and/or irrational) and both sexes are seemingly happy.

    Anyways, PUA is just a new face on a very, very old game. Yeah, I appreciate that some women might be repulsed by the idea that men are running game on them, rehashing old lines to elicit a certain response but this behaviour has always been present. Go back 40 years to bars and clubs and guys were up to the same old tricks. That’s the mating ritual and our species has been entwined in this complex dance for thousands of years. Who knows what the playing field will be like in say another 40 years when women have adapted to all these new techniques and heard every single guy try to start a conversation with “Hey, let me get your opinion on something…”

    There are some great tips in the material it has to be said, which references more than just cheesy pick-up lines that happened to work on drunken college girls but proper academic research on human cultures and evolutionary biology/psychology.

    When you see what many of this stuff is inspired by: The Selfish Gene {Richard Dawkins}; The Mating Mind {Geoffrey Miller}; The Dangerous Passion {David Buss}; The Red Queen {Matt Ridley}; Sperm Wars {Robin Baker} it’s hard to refute that there is a great deal of thought behind it all, albeit re-packaged into hip trendy language making it marketable to guys who may never have read a science book.

    I definitely think some of this material has saved many young men from a life of quiet desperation and in many an extreme case, saved them from a potential suicide due to severe social isolation and low self-worth.

    Great thread Liah, fair play to all your effort in keeping up with the barrage of posters. :D


  • #185
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »
    Only a minority of people could manage saying that without coming across as creepy or making the other person uncomfortable. So the guy sees a girl, comes up to her and says "You seem interesting" etc etc.

    What exactly is "interesting" about her? He doesn't know squat about her if she is a complete stranger, which kind of makes the "interesting" spiel invalid. You can only know if someone is interesting if you have already spoken to them a bit...saying it to a complete stranger seems out of place...and implies that it is just another canned line.

    BTW, that just struck me while I was reading the thread. I've never heard of PUAs before. Interesting thread.

    Poor phrasing, I meant something more along the lines of "I'd like to get to know you a little better." Just something that would indicate he's not only in it for the ride. My point is I don't want to date or sleep with the kind of guy who just wants sex from a girl, but I would one who also wants to find out something about her and enjoy her company.


  • #186
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Waking-Dreams I agree with everything you say but I think it's easier for a girl to be good looking than for a guy to become confident and have good social skills. The guy actually has to be good at lots of things to get the girl she just has to be good looking. He needs to be clever,funny, still attractive but not as much as women and good conversation skills.

    For a woman to be good looking she needs to be slim and be able to buy fake tan and make up. Being slim isn't that hard and you can learn how to do make up by walking into brown thomas. The guy really has to work at being good with women.


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  • #187
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056292870


    Keep an eye on that thread, its of relevance to this topic.


  • #188
    Red Hand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    liah wrote: »
    Poor phrasing, I meant something more along the lines of "I'd like to get to know you a little better." Just something that would indicate he's not only in it for the ride. My point is I don't want to date or sleep with the kind of guy who just wants sex from a girl, but I would one who also wants to find out something about her and enjoy her company.

    Well, from what I see, even saying something like to an Irish girl and not having her give him a glassy smile in return, would be restricted to the fellow who has oodles of charm. Where it doesn't really matter what he will say so long as it strikes up a conversation.

    From what I see, most people get talking by being in close proximity to each other (smoking areas), a throwaway comment ("Busy in here, eh?") or being a friend of a friend of a friend.

    The minority who have charm can say a lot of things without the person they are talking to becoming uncomfortable...even saying things like "I'd like to get to know you a little better." From what I can see, these PUAs are trying to replicate this in a formula (which to me is quite funny. Maybe it gets them results, but personally, I would be shame faced and embarressed trying to do canned spiel)


  • #189
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    liah wrote: »
    I'm also more likely to encounter a formerly socially inept dishonest person. The problem is, I'm not going to be able to tell the difference, because they're going to be using the same material.

    You see this is just fundamentally untrue. Girls spot it all the time. Have a read through how much excuse making there is in this whole PUA stuff for when it doesn't work. "If after you do x and y, she doesn't do z, walk away she is just a bitch, or she is just a or b or c". Because of course it can't be that the girl can see through you like a fucking window... This is a product people are presenting in a lot of cases, have a look at how littered with adds some of the sites are. The claim that it is fool proof is laughable. Some of the reasons put forward by some of the 'big names' in this stuff for girls not buying it remind me of that used car salesmen in an episode of The Simpsons trying to tell Homer the bullet holes in his car were "speed holes... makes the car go faster". Lots of total bullsh1t flows freely throughout the whole thing.

    Don't believe the hype. That just isn't directed to Liah btw, Wolf and co too.

    I think I mentioned earlier on in the thread that a guy I lived with first introduced me to this stuff. Had it all printed off, sorted in a colour coded folder and all, split into sections, cross referenced, the lot. I read a good chunk of it and said to myself "well, yes...obviously...and?", because it was such 'instinctual' stuff to me, I figured everyone did it in the way that dogs sniff each others asses. But there was also a lot where I read it and thought to myself "ohh please please please don't tell me xxxx(room mate) is going to try this when we are out in public together...not in front of actual people".

    (Now maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe heavily intoxicated North American girls in skanky grease clubs cease being human for some reason and react accordingly. There's a chance of that, and maybe that stuff would work on them.)

    ...and he did. ...and the girls that didn't respond in the 'right way' read:shot him down with a big wing mounted 50mm cannon, well there was obviously something wrong with them.

    Bless...

    Now don't get me wrong. The guy went from being terrified to talk to girls to being able to chat away and throw his hat in the ring without quite as much fear of rejection, and the PUA stuff was the reason for that. I just kind of wish he hadn't bought into all of it hook line and sinker. It did him out of a chance with far more women than he was able to realise and gave me a whole new row of wrinkles from cringing so much on a night out with him.


  • #190
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Gotta say lads this has been a pretty revealing and interesting thread for me and it's certainly helped me get a better perspective on the reasons why guys get into PUA and the way it's actually used. I suppose I've been watching too much How I Met Your Mother to have given it a fair shake.

    I do think it's concerning and I am still paranoid about falling prey to someone who's 'using it for evil,' so to speak. But all I can do is do my best to be aware of the material that's being used and trust my instincts on sussing people out. I don't know where all my paranoia has built from lately - there really is no reason for it, I've never had a lad treat me poorly (well.. not THAT poorly..). I suppose the dynamic of boards has gotten into my head a little, a lot of men on boards have a habit of reinforcing some really, really unpleasant 'facts' about men (they only want sex, all men cheat, all that matters to a guy is how she looks, etc etc etc - you know the kind of thing) and this thread's making me realize I should probably really go outside sometime soon :pac:

    I do want to say that I hope any guys who are using PUA are aware that they need to take the objectification/dehumanization with a pinch of salt. This stuff makes it too easy to compartmentalize and I think it can be potentially damaging to legitimately nice guys if they take it too far. I see a lot of flashes of that and it's fairly alarming, not only because I'm afraid I'll be their target, but because it's not a nice path for someone to start going down.


  • #191
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    strobe wrote: »
    You see this is just fundamentally untrue. Girls spot it all the time. Have a read through how much excuse making there is in this whole PUA stuff for when it doesn't work. "If after you do x and y, she doesn't do z, walk away she is just a bitch, or she is just a or b or c". Because of course it can't be that the girl can see through you like a fucking window... This is a product people are presenting in a lot of cases, have a look at how littered with adds some of the sites are. The claim that it is fool proof is laughable. Some of the reasons put forward by some of the 'big names' in this stuff for girls not buying it remind me of that used car salesmen in an episode of The Simpsons trying to tell Homer the bullet holes in his car were "speed holes... makes the car go faster". Lots of total bullsh1t flows freely throughout the whole thing.

    With respect, if anyone is telling you that they guarantee 100% success (not just in this case, but anywhere) then they're full of ****.

    What I say is that it guarantees you 'the power of choice'.

    Personally, I don't recommend 'approaching' as it's described in the material. Well...I do at the start when you need to just learn to shake off rejection and build confidence. But, ideally, all you're looking for is to make connections with people. You're not approaching women with a sinister motive, but to just make pleasant conversation and see if the two of you gel.

    Long story short, basically what you want to do is ensure that you find the best possible match for you on any given night. In sales, they talk about the 'law of averages'. In other words, if you try to sell to 100 people, the skill involved isn't to sell to all 100 but to sell to the 10 it is POSSIBLE to sell to.

    Pick-up should never advertise being able to seduce absolutely any girl. There will never be a guaranteed quick fix for that. It should teach you to be able to find the one's that suit you, and you them.

    Plus, you should never blame the woman for your failure. This is the problem that LEADS many men to this (i.e. the one's who think 'lesbian!' after they are rejected). This is also the root cause of the OP's gripes, I would venture to say.

    When you put the blame in other's hands, there is nothing you can do to change that...because the circumstances you are pinning are out of your control. Instead you focus on what you CAN control and look to improve it.

    So, no, I reject your assertion that PUA teaches men to blame women for failure. The idea is to routinely analyse yourself and look to what YOU can do to improve, next time.

    But, yes, I agree with the point that many men become obsessed by it. Usually these are the people who won't succeed, they are in it for the wrong reasons. The one's who do succeed are the one's who look at everything with an open mind, pick what material suits them best, hone it to perfection, integrate it then move on and let it become one with their own personality.


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  • #192
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #193
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    If she's up for an ONS there would be no need for this PUA bull**** in the first place.

    Yes there is. To make you more attractive so she chooses to have the ONS with you over someone else.

    I'd like to point out to the guys using canned stuff that you shouldn't be using that stuff permanently, try learning natural game. It's much more fun and enjoyable in the long term and better for connecting with the women which makes it a much better experience. Having a few lines, routines and games etc is good to have in your arsenal but if you are just reeling off canned stuff continuously I don't think that's any good for you in the long term.


  • #194
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    leggo wrote: »
    I still take issue with the idea of 'manipulation' as implied here. See also: 'deception'.

    To put it into perspective: every man who does not approach a woman and say the words "I would like to have sex with you tonight and possibly continue into a relationship if we both still like each other in the morning," is being both deceptive and manipulative. He is not stating his full intentions up front and trying to alter a situation to suit an end means. But, at the same time, this plan of action would never, ever, EVER work on ANY woman (well...maybe some...but not the kind you'd want it to...)

    So you have to accept that a small amount of leeway is NECESSARY for any copulation to take place. Otherwise the world would end because breeding would become impossible.

    liah, I feel bad for you. I genuinely do. I've been in your shoes trying to defend myself against tons of people MANY times before.

    But I firmly believe the reason you have ended up in this spot is because you've made massively sweeping statements about a lifestyle that you admit you don't fully understand. Calling it creepy, manipulative and deceptive and then refusing, point blank, to do any more homework on the matter.

    The simple reality is that the intentions of pick-up, in its raw form, are as pure as day: to get guys' women. To breed. To continue the earth's cycle. To eventually find love and meaningful relationships. Simple.

    What you have a problem with is fair and I actually agree with you on many points. Some use it for manipulative purposes but they are manipulative people anyway and would likely find another means of achieving the same end if this material didn't exist. Some 'gurus' use it to con innocent, naive guys out of thousands of euros. Some use it just to convince themselves they are experts despite never actually practising what they preach (in the community the term for them is KJs: Keyboard Jockeys). And so on.

    The practise itself is sound, though. You are not more, or admittedly less, likely to encounter a manipulative, deceitful man because this information is out there (they'd try and manipulate you either way). You are, however, more likely to encounter a guy who you previously wouldn't have given time of day to because he has taken steps to make himself appear on your radar now.

    That's the simple reality of this. And if you don't believe me then try this: no woman I have ever been with, and told about PUA (I'm generally quite forthcoming and honest about this), has EVER left or been turned off after I told them. Beforehand, some admitted to have pre-conceived notions about PUAs, but when they saw it in practise through me realised that it was actually a positive step. When some of them saw me helping guys and aiding them in making massive personal jumps, they often asked to help themselves because it was so inspiring to see.

    In short, sometimes what you read or hear about through the wire doesn't give you the full story. While I don't expect you to change your views entirely based on this post or topic, I hope you can leave this discussion with a new sense that maybe your pre-conceived notions were more down to lack of full information than the truth.

    There's plenty of clips of instructor PUAs on youtube chatting up women if people want to see what it's actually like instead of the preconceived notion in their head. It's basically a man and woman flirting and getting on well.


  • #195
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    liah wrote: »
    Excellent post, strobe. Fleshing it out like that does help me to understand the mentality behind some of these guys. But it still doesn't really.. justify it, you know? I dunno. I'll be mulling it over for a bit.

    You definitely got my perspective pretty much down though. Especially by outlining the popularity of it.

    And re: 'be yourself,' yeah, I guess what I mean by that is don't be fake, but grow the parts of you you want people to notice. Just don't be deceptive about who you are, is my point, I guess.


    What PUA advice in particular do you feel is deceptive? It's hard to discuss the ethics of it when we aren't pinpointing specifics.


  • #196
    RedXIV
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,467 ✭✭✭RedXIV


    liah wrote: »
    Gotta say lads this has been a pretty revealing and interesting thread for me and it's certainly helped me get a better perspective on the reasons why guys get into PUA and the way it's actually used. I suppose I've been watching too much How I Met Your Mother to have given it a fair shake.

    I do think it's concerning and I am still paranoid about falling prey to someone who's 'using it for evil,' so to speak. But all I can do is do my best to be aware of the material that's being used and trust my instincts on sussing people out. I don't know where all my paranoia has built from lately - there really is no reason for it, I've never had a lad treat me poorly (well.. not THAT poorly..). I suppose the dynamic of boards has gotten into my head a little, a lot of men on boards have a habit of reinforcing some really, really unpleasant 'facts' about men (they only want sex, all men cheat, all that matters to a guy is how she looks, etc etc etc - you know the kind of thing) and this thread's making me realize I should probably really go outside sometime soon :pac:

    I do want to say that I hope any guys who are using PUA are aware that they need to take the objectification/dehumanization with a pinch of salt. This stuff makes it too easy to compartmentalize and I think it can be potentially damaging to legitimately nice guys if they take it too far. I see a lot of flashes of that and it's fairly alarming, not only because I'm afraid I'll be their target, but because it's not a nice path for someone to start going down.

    In fairness Liah, I don't think anyone expects any more than that from you. the fact you are actually thinking about what's being said willing to let your own opinion change is probably more than good enough for most people here.

    I'm pretty sure there's a point where we can go up to on each others viewpoint before refusing to relinquish our ideals and it is encouraging that you have apparently pushed the boundaries of that. Although that could simply be you clarifying your initial position :)

    The main thing to remember though is that most people who look this up (and I've met a good few) simply want companionship and don't know how to go about it. And this helps. There's always going to be an arsehole in the middle of these things that takes it too far but that happens in every discipline. We had one in our martial arts club who spent years learning how to fight and different ways to hurt someone and he was very good at it. But he got found out by the club's sensei who refused to teach him again. Not the greatest punishment but it was all the sensei was willing to enforce.

    I don't believe in religion but i do believe in Karma and anyone who uses this stuff just to be a prick will eventually get their comeuppance. But for every bad story you hear about it, I just ask you to remember the good ones too. My current relationship is the by-product of my experimentation with PUA and I'm deliriously happy with my gf and our family. PUA helped me achieve that so thats why I see the good.

    Anyways, fair play for your interest and dedication in the thread :)


  • #197
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Very informative thread. However I think it should be shut down and deleted so more guys don't start using this to steal all the hotties.

    Just kidding but it has definitely changed my opinion. In terms of manipulation it seems like a male equivalent to make-up. Makes you seem more attractive but its not like you're hiding anything significant. Its a foot in the door, I don't really think women could be so easily played that they're going to end up sleeping with someone they would otherwise have zero interest in. That kind of woman wouldn't have made it through natural selection surely

    I also think these tricks have been around for generations - this pua culture has just formalised it a bit.


  • #198
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I'm sorry but this goes back to why you should never listen to a woman on how to pick up women.
    Actually if I had a rule/advice for a 15 year old bloke that would be it. Women will in the majority of cases steer him seriously wrong on that score. And IMHO a few other scores relationship wise too.
    If a guy goes up to and says hello he will be like every other guy who guys up to and says hello. It's the guys who stand out like in wolfe tones story who will actually get the girl so why in gods name wouldn't you do that instead of just saying hello.
    That's true IMH. With the odd exception the guy who stands out gets the roide/girlfriend. Of course different things stand out to different women at different times and ages. There's a general core value that seems to apply across the board though and that would be social confidence.
    Yea okay I'm sorry to break it to you but if a guy approached you in a nightclub it's because he wants to have sex with you. Yes I'm speaking on behalf of all guys and I don't care because anyone who denies this is a liar trying to look like a "nice" guy.
    Well.... yes and no. No really SH. I know for me it depends on my mood. I've certainly approached women just for the banter bit of a flirt and didn't way to have sex with them. Have even :eek: turned down the chance on occasion.
    Respect or a shag? Hmm I wonder which one I'd prefer.:D Honestly people don't go to nightclubs to get to know people.
    They don't, but a helluva lot of long termers even marriages start with strangers in niteclubs usually drunk. Which if proof were needed shows that the idea that women need to get to know someone, it's more than genitals etc is a bit askew. They may say they want to get to know someone as a person and a friend, but most attractive women have given the "let's be friends" to an actual male mate and a week later gone off with a random stranger who they know jack about. Women think with their ladybits just as much as men do with their manbits,:D but usually couch it in more flowery terms. "Love at first sight", beyond his teenage years a very very rare thing to hear coming from a man. Pretty common with women. Translation? "I want to ride him/I am sexually aroused by him". It can't be anything else as she can't know anything else about the object of this "love". Ditto for "instant connection/fate" and other magical romantic thinking. Its not always wrong BTW, it's just another way of screening munters and weirdos that men do less/differently.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Waking-Dreams I agree with everything you say but I think it's easier for a girl to be good looking than for a guy to become confident and have good social skills. The guy actually has to be good at lots of things to get the girl she just has to be good looking. He needs to be clever,funny, still attractive but not as much as women and good conversation skills.

    For a woman to be good looking she needs to be slim and be able to buy fake tan and make up. Being slim isn't that hard and you can learn how to do make up by walking into brown thomas. The guy really has to work at being good with women.
    No. I'd seriously disagree with this. IMHO It's actually easier for men. Even though it's a sellers market and all that, men have more flexibility, if only they realised it. Number one a man can earn his attractiveness. Women are pretty much either good looking or not. Yes they can improve or disimprove, but have a basic level going on and a basic level of bloke they can hope to attract based on that. This level drops with age too. Women are mostly judged by that yardstick alone as far as"getting a man" is concerned. Like I pointed out earlier if she's young and pretty then she can be a neurotic loon and still won't lose the average blokes interest. That's great so long as she can offer that, not so great when she's headbutting 40 and single.

    Men? The biggest social retard gimp at 20 can be beating them off with a stick at 30, or 40, hell 50 and beyond in some rarer and rich cases. Walk the streets and you will see men who were hit by every branch when they fell out of the ugly tree with women "out of their league". You will see far far less of that going on in the other direction. Men can earn and learn their attractiveness. Indeed you could almost tell a man's social standing by how objectively attractive his partner is.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:
    I don't really think women could be so easily played that they're going to end up sleeping with someone they would otherwise have zero interest in. That kind of woman wouldn't have made it through natural selection surely
    I dunno B, I would say there are ways of telling people what they want to hear just to get the legover(tm). If you have a novel approach and aren't coming across like every other bloke she's ever met, you may trigger that "love at first sight/weak in the knees/fate" magical thinking mindset and confuse the subconcsious vetting process. Because it's more subconscious, it's more a feeling than a thought I would say it's easier to confuse it?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #199
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    In regards to the objectifying and dehumanising of women. I don't think you did a good job in a explaining why people shouldn't do this since it clearly works.*

    One problem with doing it is that if you have to tear down what you want to get it, do you still want it? I do believe the process of PUA tears down women into objects. So basically the process of getting what you want turns that 'want' into something you didn't want.*

    I do think looking down on women makes it easier to get women but the
    Problem is why would you still want them if you now look down on them?

    However isn't it better to get something you look down on then nothing at all?*

    I also don't believe the dehumanising of
    women is a permanent viewpoint it's just something you have to believe while learning. So that after awhile you won't look down on women but you will still have the social skills to get them. That's the hope anyway.

    So I probably will still look into this stuff.


  • #200
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    In regards to the objectifying and dehumanising of women. I don't think you did a good job in a explaining why people shouldn't do this since it clearly works.*

    One problem with doing it is that if you have to tear down what you want to get it, do you still want it? I do believe the process of PUA tears down women into objects. So basically the process of getting what you want turns that 'want' into something you didn't want.*

    I do think looking down on women makes it easier to get women but the
    Problem is why would you still want them if you now look down on them?

    However isn't it better to get something you look down on then nothing at all?*

    I also don't believe the dehumanising of
    women is a permanent viewpoint it's just something you have to believe while learning. So that after awhile you won't look down on women but you will still have the social skills to get them. That's the hope anyway.

    So I probably will still look into this stuff.

    I reckon you should find others sources to learn from. Why would you feel the need to "tear down" women? How does that help?

    Describe your process for tearing down women. I haven't come across this stuff?

    Whatever it is you are describing it sounds fairly sadistic and you can't blame women for being pi$$ed off. Maybe you are just using a bad choice of words and it's coming across worse than what you mean.


  • #201
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    I reckon you should find others sources to learn from. Why would you feel the need to "tear down" women? How does that help?

    Describe your process for tearing down women. I haven't come across this stuff?

    Whatever it is you are describing it sounds fairly sadistic and you can't blame women for being pi$$ed off. Maybe you are just using a bad choice of words and it's coming across worse than what you mean.
    No one on this thread who has done PUA has admitted it gives people a negative view of women which seems like self delusion to me because that's clearly what it does. It turns women into an object thats up for grabs as a prize which is dehumanising them.

    This is why it works to break down the guys fear of women. He's no longer dealing with a person who intimidates him it's just an object you have no respect for. Who cares if you get rejected by an object you don't respect so it also removes the fear of rejection.

    Maybe because you are so engrosed in this stuff you don't see the reality of why it works. The people who sell you the PUA are basically tricking you like you trick women. The women don't know the real reason why they like you(because you've played them) and the people who buy this stuff don't know the reason why it works(tearing down women). If you were open about what you were doing to a woman they'd run a mile and perhaps if the PUA were open about what they were selling you ten you'd also run a mile. It's clearly a guide on how to decieve women.


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