The Ethics of PUA

09-06-2011 9:54am

Wibbs wrote: »

On average women drive and know how to drive romantic/sexual relationships more than men. Even in highly gender biased societies like Saudi Arabia the relationship dynamic is still largely driven by women. They may not see their own manipulation of the relationship dynamic, but I've seen it in women mates.

In SA?! Can you elaborate a bit, please??

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 10:02am

In SA like in many very paternalistic societies(the middle east in general), the women have their own society running alongside the mainstream male one. Under the veil much goes on behind closed doors, including in mate selection. The joke about the bloke not seeing his bride until their wedding night is an old one, but you can be sure each one of his female relatives has checked her out thoroughly and both him and her female rellies have had a right old confab about the whole thing. Its highly likely the women members of the families organised the match in the first place.

Waking-Dreams · 09-06-2011 10:29am

Wibbs wrote: »

On the surface at least women sexual/romantic/partner status is much more based on looks and age and specifically reproductive health. How many products are bombarding women on how to "lie" about that? Walk into an average nightclub at midnight and watch the heel highed staggering parade of two legged max factor mistruths before you.

In fairness, you can’t be too hard on the girls for this, when the ideal image of a woman that gets projected out in the media in rags like NUTS, FHM, etc, is that of a woman who looks like a porn star but it’s: “sexy with a brain” and/or “me and my girlfriends love making out for a laugh”. Sure, a woman can forgo wearing make-up and not shave their legs/pits but in the eyes of modern men they might as well be tying a smelly tire around their bodies.

Then there’s celebs pushing fad diets and all the rest. Women can’t escape from this tirade of image obsession but it’s dressed up as though it’s empowering for them to look good that the lads will drool over them.

There is a certain defensiveness to this issue, that it’s the women driving all this heavy handed cosmetic intervention and manipulation but I think they are choices fuelled by desperation (not wanting to get left behind with absolutely no attention from the opposite sex who are busy chasing the others who do dress/look a certain way) rather than liberation.

It’s a “free” choice on the surface, as lots of women don’t go so far in dressing up to look like (insert female sex icon here) and can still have success in their dating lives but right now it seems the vast majority of young women / teenage girls feel pressured into looking like porn stars when they go out to the night club. Maybe this is also contributing to why some men treat them as such?

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 11:42am

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

It’s a “free” choice on the surface, as lots of women don’t go so far in dressing up to look like (insert female sex icon here) and can still have success in their dating lives but right now it seems the vast majority of young women / teenage girls feel pressured into looking like porn stars when they go out to the night club. Maybe this is also contributing to why some men treat them as such?

Oh there is defo a sexualisation of women more than I recall at 18 *cough* years ago. There's defo more of a "gender war/them and us" thing too.

However I would argue that this appearance pressure often laid at the feet of men is more often than not coming from other women. Men as a general rule have no clue of the difference between a manolo blahnik and penneys best. Most are utterly clueless when it comes to makeup unless the woman is in oompaloompa territory.

I would say there is a difference that needs to be drawn between say "Nuts" and "Cosmo/Vogue". There's also the chicken and the egg thing. What came first, the basques high heels and suspenders or mens sexualisation of them? I'd argue its entirely cultural and driven by big biz and other women in the artificial social proof reproductive arms race. It happens in other societies, but in the modern western world it's more extreme. Just like images of beauty. There has always been an "ideal" in any culture. The difference is a Greek woman 3000 years ago could look at a statue of the ideal and be within sniffing distance of actually looking like that ideal. Today with image manipulation of human outliers in the first place that ideal becomes further and further away from everyday reality. So we're living in extreme times.

That said regardless of the extremes I do think the point is still valid. IE in the social proof reproductive arms race in young men and women, the latter in general hold more of the tools(no pun) and "manipulation" devices. It's a sellers market. The sellers are not so aware of that as they're living it. Just like a man has no clue how often even an average looking woman is sexually graded on looks on a daily basis. We're not living it.

Because they may not see the sellers market they're getting twitchy over the buyers having more choice through PUA? That they attack the concept because its not "natural" or "honest", yet among the ladies, very few are "natural" or "honest" about themselves as far as their outward(and sometimes inward) sociosexual triggers? Basically is a padded bra any more "dishonest" than a guy learning chat up lines?

liah wrote:

The 'be yourself' answer comes down to this: if you REALLY, REALLY want to find someone who is suited to you, like, PROPERLY suited to you, one you don't have to lie about yourself to, one that you can feel 100% comfortable with, etc, you really should just be yourself and not give a damn what other people think. Because you can find the best partner imaginable that way - or at least that's what's worked for me.

The only thing other than that is 'be confident in yourself,' i.e. just accept who you are and don't be terrified of talking to people.

That's good advice, but what if the "yourself" part is actually pretty socially unattractive? I've known men who moaned about being single all the time and under my breath I thanked the fates they'd likely not reproduce. Sometimes, hell a lot of the time, a fair few people need to fix up themselves to the best of their ability.

Tbh I really don't think that's the worst advice in the world. Again, it's worked incredibly well for me.

Oh yea L I'm quite sure it has worked incredibly well for you but this is why this advice is given more by women to men than the other way around(and why I would discount it more). Since it's a sellers market and you're a seller, a young woman, you could be the most neurotic windowlicker in christendom and you would still get male attention. The reverse is a lot less likely. Men will take sometimes unreal levels of mad bitch/daddies princess/irish mammy syndrome for sex/having a girlfriend.

RedXIV · 09-06-2011 12:28pm

Wibbs wrote: »

That's good advice, but what if the "yourself" part is actually pretty socially unattractive? I've known men who moaned about being single all the time and under my breath I thanked the fates they'd likely not reproduce. Sometimes, hell a lot of the time, a fair few people need to fix up themselves to the best of their ability.

I'd agree 110% with what you've put so far bar the bit in bold above.

If someone is asking for advice on how to appear more attractive to the opposite gender then obviously being yourself doesn't work otherwise they wouldn't be looking for advice.

Its not just bad advice, its pretty miserable advice to receive because it does absolutely nothing to help the person learn what would be a more socially attractive way to be. I honestly believe everyone tailors their personality to deal with different people all the time so the idea of being yourself at all times is a fallacy to me

Waking-Dreams · 09-06-2011 1:14pm

I do agree Wibbs, it is an arms race of sorts and women compete with one another in how they dress too. And yeah, the fact of the matter is that if a typical female wanted to go out tonight and find someone to sleep with she would undoubtedly find more men happy to oblige than in the reverse scenario where the guy is looking for it. Though that’s because men can, theoretically, reproduce every time they have sex; women have to ‘choose’ carefully so they are going to be much more particular in dealing with the opposite sex. This is all laid on sexual selection theory, etc. Though, one must remember there is proximate (orgasmic pleasure) and ultimate causes (reproduction) to consider in the equation.

RedXIV wrote: »

It’s not just bad advice, it’s pretty miserable advice to receive because it does absolutely nothing to help the person learn what would be a more socially attractive way to be. I honestly believe everyone tailors their personality to deal with different people all the time so the idea of being yourself at all times is a fallacy to me

I think that’s quite true. People talk about an authentic self but we all have many. ‘The presentation of self in everyday life’ and ‘Games people play’ shine some light on the manifold social masks we all wear and tailor to different people. When a bloke walks up to a girl in the nightclub, how likely is it that she is wearing her own social mask (for that situation) and not being entirely authentic?

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 1:30pm

Oh I agree its crap advice for men, but my whole point Red is it's not always bad advice for women, hence they will offer it as such more often. After all it probably worked for them. They've a lot less to lose "being themselves" personality wise at least. OK extreme(or not) example;

Remember this song from back in the day?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhfiiGGy7Ls

The Lyrics;
hate the world today
You're so good to me I know but I can't change
I tried to tell you but you look at me like maybe
I'm an angel underneath; innocent and sweet
Yesterday I cried; Must've been relief to see the softer side
I can understand how you'd be so confused
I don't envy you; I'm a little bit of everything
all rolled into one
I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

So take me as I am
This may mean you'll have to be a stronger man
Rest assured that when I start to make you nervous
and I'm going to extremes; Tomorrow I will change
And today won't mean a thing

I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

Musical Break

Just when you think, you got me figured out
The season's already changin'
I think it's cool; you do what you do
And don't try to save me

I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

I'm a bitch, I'm a tease
I'm a goddess on my knees
When your hurt; when you suffer
I'm your angel undercover
I've been numb; I'm revived
Can't say I'm not alive
You know I wouldn't want it any other way

That was a popular song. Some even held it up as some sort of feminist lite anthem. And what are the lyrics describing? Well ask what would the lyrics describe if it was a man? An unbalanced unpredictable neurotic most likely and also most likely a man who wouldnt get laid in a brothel nor keep a girlfriend for very long. Entitled "I'm a twat"

It's pretty clear most men, especially younger men who feel they have less choice, will accept more personality "quirks" in a potential partner than a woman will all things being equal. Guy meets woman, fancies woman, woman acts a bit odd. So long as she doesn't go postal chances are she won't lose him. Not in the early stages of courtship. In the reverse, she's more likely to call him odd or creepy or just plain "eeeuw". She can "be herself", he has less freedom to do so.

IMHO this difference in what is valued by women versus men* makes most young women in general really bad at telling young men how to go about approaching and getting a woman.

That and it's often harder to pin down for themselves how or why they were wooed in a step by step way that men could work on. Him: "So how did Tom get you then?" Her: "Oh it was just the way he looked at me/chemistry/sense of humour/he was nice". Or Him: "how do I attract more women/get a girlfriend?" Her: "oh just be yourself/what's for you won't go by you/you're a lovely guy/there's a woman out there for you/etc" (sometimes... Him: "whatabout you?" Her: "eeeeuw":D). Not a lot to go on. Its all very subjective, because again it's a sellers market and she's never had to really think about it, so falls back on what has worked for her.

*these are subtles diffs, there are more commonalities, but it would be my opinion that in those diffs the issues lay.

RedXIV · 09-06-2011 1:39pm

Can't really argue with that, you're pretty much spot on.

This could also be one of the sources of aggravation for women in regards to PUA, since as you say above, for women, the advice "be yourself" works for other women and themselves so they've no reason to doubt the information when passing it on to a guy, however, as described elsewhere, men know this isn't the case and present a more male/buyer friendly set of advice which in actuality is what a guy needs to hear. It may be interpreted though that men are discounting the advice passed to them from women.

This is an interesting thread, really makes ya think

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 1:42pm

That was a popular song. Some even held it up as some sort of feminist lite anthem. And what are the lyrics describing? Well ask what would the lyrics describe if it was a man? An unbalanced unpredictable neurotic most likely and also most likely a man who wouldnt get laid in a brothel nor keep a girlfriend for very long. Entitled "I'm a twat"

It's pretty clear most men, especially younger men who feel they have less choice, will accept more personality "quirks" in a potential partner than a woman will all things being equal. Guy meets woman, fancies woman, woman acts a bit odd. So long as she doesn't go postal chances are she won't lose him. Not in the early stages of courtship. In the reverse, she's more likely to call him odd or creepy or just plain "eeeuw". She can "be herself", he has less freedom to do so.

So true. You even see it a lot in threads on boards where people talk about depression or really any disorder like anxiety. The girls still have boyfriends but the guys don't have girlfriends. There are definitely more consequences for a man being seen as weird than for a woman.

Low confidence in a man is pretty much crippling in terms of finding a partner but in a woman it can even be seen as cute. If a guy with low confidence sits in the corner of a pub no one is going to approach him but the woman will still have men coming up to her. She really doesn't have to do anything active socially to be successful socially but if a guy is passive socially he will become isolated.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 1:46pm

Also completely agree with this

On average women drive and know how to drive romantic/sexual relationships more than men. Even in highly gender biased societies like Saudi Arabia the relationship dynamic is still largely driven by women. They may not see their own manipulation of the relationship dynamic, but I've seen it in women mates. I think manipulation is too pejorative a word. We're all manipulators. It's what all social animals do. We just dress it up in fancy clothes to satisfy our own intellects. Women IMHO do the latter more than men, or moreso are less likely to see it as manipulation. It's just "what they do".

I made the point earlier that most social interaction is basically manipulating people but it was shot down I think just because they didn't like the sound of the word.

leggo · 09-06-2011 2:24pm

The phrase they use is "be your best self," to be specific.

The idea, and one that I agree with, is that while there is nothing wrong with who you are...how you communicate that to other people is another story altogether.

The routines are a way of getting someone out of their comfort zone and trying to see things from a different perspective before integrating the things you've learned with your personality. You learn routines that coincide with your own interests, pick and choose basically, then go from there.

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 3:51pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

There are definitely more consequences for a man being seen as weird than for a woman.

One could also argue that there are more potential consequences for a woman being with a "weird" man, than the other way around.

Low confidence in a man is pretty much crippling in terms of finding a partner but in a woman it can even be seen as cute. If a guy with low confidence sits in the corner of a pub no one is going to approach him but the woman will still have men coming up to her. She really doesn't have to do anything active socially to be successful socially but if a guy is passive socially he will become isolated.

I'd agree with that alright

liah · 09-06-2011 4:25pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Liah I think you are letting your own experience cloud your judgement. All your story really told was that you didn't lack empathy you were just immature at the time. I think it's kind of like someone with mild non medical depression who manages to snap out of it thinking that someone with a serious depression can do the same.
It's not just about treating people poorly it's about genuinely not knowing how to be nice. I've tried to be nice and it's just not something I can do. There is a lot of stuff in social interaction that simply doesn't make sense if you don't have empathy.

I don't buy into the idea that you should keep searching for people to accept you. I actually think the Internet has done a great disservice to social groups because you can now surround yourself with people just like you. Now matter how obscure your interests you will find a group on the Internet that's into it.

I don't want to be surrounded by people just like because I don't see what there is to gain in being around people just like you. I'd a group of people where no one is even slightly similar. That way there is actually somthing to be gained from talking to them. The only way I can meet different people and not piss them off is to fake a personality. My own personality is too limiting in social situations.

I think this is something you just are going to have more trouble with than the average person due to your Asperger's.

And making friends/having relationships isn't about 'finding something to gain' in a person. It's not like a business transaction - you don't meet up and compare qualities to trade off on, it's not like "okay, you've got the car, I've got the XBox" sort of thing. You make friends because you enjoy their company and they enjoy yours, they can be identical to you or the complete opposite of you. But if you're looking at relationships and friendships like a business transaction it really doesn't surprise me that you're having trouble.. that's not really how it works!

strobe wrote: »

(You're replying to everyone's posts here Liah and it looks exhausting, so don't feel obligated to reply to mine.)

You have no idea how hard it is to keep track of what I'm replying to when I'm the only one being bombarded by 5 different people, needed the night to get myself sorted out because by the end of it I felt like I'd been blitzkrieged :pac: Would help if people didn't reply to things that aren't addressed to them/take tangents completely out of context.. would make my life a lot easier.

I'm sure a lot of guys do but I don't think that means women can just throw out blanket 'your not a woman you wouldn't understand' comments as an argument. It's not an argument, it's a dismissal.

I'm not meaning it to be a dismissal. I'm just saying, I wouldn't expect to know the ins-and-outs about how a man would feel around a group of women, so I can't expect a man to know what it'd be like for me surrounded by a bunch of men. That's all.

I acknowledge the difference between the two attitudes but it depends on the situation for me. Out in a club slamming Jagerbombers on a Friday night, I don't think there is anything wrong with scenario 1 tbh.

I don't like it. It's like his mindset is that he wants to use someone for sex. I could never use another person for sex, but that's just me - but that's also why I really don't want to encounter PUA types.

It would be a bit different in a park walking your dogs or whatever but I still wouldn't find it 'creepy' if a women approached me, got talking to me and I realised she was primarily interested in sex.

Well, personally, I would find it very creepy if a man approached me and asked me to have sex. A) because he's probably bigger than me,

because it means he just sees me as something to bang, and C) because I don't even know the guy.

It doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't find it creepy, really, but understand that for some of us it is absolutely.

I think we have little hope of seeing eye to eye on this point though. Sometimes (obviously not always) for me sex is is just a physical act. Like a sport, or hobby, for want of a better term. You seem to view it differently. On occasion I don't much care if the person I'm playing tennis with studied journalism or loves rainbows. I just think they look like good players and want to play a couple of sets with them. If that makes sense...

I get it. It's just I can't see it that way - what it keeps coming down to is that I don't want to use another person and I don't want to be used by another person. And that I just plain don't want to be seen as only a hole.

Having said that though, having the 'tools' to bed a woman doesn't mean you can't also see her as a wonderful human being and want to get to know her, find out everything she is interested in, fall madly in love with her and grow old together looking at your grand kids playing in the field outside your country cottage. I was in love with my last girlfriend, we were living together etc, but I 'picked her up' in a pub in town. It's not mutually exclusive.

Ah I know, but so few PUA types actually think of it that way.

SugarHigh wrote: »

The problem with this is that you are trying to view their perspective but first you are looking through your own. So it's your minds eyes view of what you think their minds eye view is. Your view distorts your perception of their view.

When you lack empathy and try and look through someones else's minds eye you can only ever get a perspective from someone who lacks empathy but you are trying to transpose this view onto someone who doesn't lack empathy.

I don't know if I've explained that well but trying to see through someone else's eye's only really works if you are both somewhat similar. Now a lot of people convince themselves they are good at reading other peoples thoughts but really they just place their own thoughts into that persons minds and confirmation bias does the rest.

Basically in short, me trying to look through someone else's is just embarrassingly pointless because what I come up with his normally way off the mark to what they're really feeling. I just genuinely don't know how other people feel about things and I'm quite cynical of their emotional responses because I don't know when they're real or not.

Again, I think this is probably something that you're going to need legitimate therapy of some kind with if you genuinely want to understand how empathy's supposed to work. But I will say, you should really try and be less cynical. The majority of people won't bs you too much about their mood.

Unless I misunderstood you when you brought up Asperger's earlier and you weren't talking about yourself - in which case I really really apologize for the assumption - but if it is the case, then perhaps asking us how to do stuff isn't really the way to go about it, because we can't know what's going on in your mind, as your condition is a bit of a game-changer here.

liah · 09-06-2011 4:30pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Also completely agree with this

I made the point earlier that most social interaction is basically manipulating people but it was shot down I think just because they didn't like the sound of the word.

It's not that you got shot down. It's just, you need to differentiate between intentional manipulation and unconscious manipulation.

Intentional manipulation is what's unnerving to most people because it's intentional deception - I don't think it's as bad when people aren't doing it on purpose and it's just part of who they are, or part of social conditioning. You can't really call someone manipulative if they're not actually trying to be manipulative.

Wolfe Tone · 09-06-2011 4:32pm

I think this is something you just are going to have more trouble with than the average person due to your Asperger's.

And making friends/having relationships isn't about 'finding something to gain' in a person. It's not like a business transaction - you don't meet up and compare qualities to trade off on, it's not like "okay, you've got the car, I've got the XBox" sort of thing. You make friends because you enjoy their company and they enjoy yours, they can be identical to you or the complete opposite of you. But if you're looking at relationships and friendships like a business transaction it really doesn't surprise me that you're having trouble.. that's not really how it works!

For what it is worth I agree with the vast vast majority of what he/she has said, seems to have a pretty good grasp on things to me.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 4:48pm

liah wrote: »

Again, I think this is probably something that you're going to need legitimate therapy of some kind with if you genuinely want to understand how empathy's supposed to work. But I will say, you should really try and be less cynical. The majority of people won't bs you too much about their mood.

Unless I misunderstood you when you brought up Asperger's earlier and you weren't talking about yourself - in which case I really really apologize for the assumption - but if it is the case, then perhaps asking us how to do stuff isn't really the way to go about it, because we can't know what's going on in your mind, as your condition is a bit of a game-changer here.

I wasn't actually asking for your advice with the intention of following it. I do see professionals. The reason I asked for your advice was because you kept saying these guys weren't going about it the right way and that faking a personality was creepy. You were claiming there was a better way but when asked you couldn't give a good answer. Your solution was basically "Disney" stuff of "be yourself" which really doesn't recognize the problem. Your other solutions involved saying simply having more confidence and becoming better at social interactions but you couldn't say how. Your advice was like telling someone with depression to not be depressed or a stressed person not to be stressed. Can you not see how this isn't actually a solution?

The truth is PUA does help these guys. it actually tells them how to have more confidence and how to be better socially. Your solutions don't.

liah wrote: »

It's not that you got shot down. It's just, you need to differentiate between intentional manipulation and unconscious manipulation.

Intentional manipulation is what's unnerving to most people because it's intentional deception - I don't think it's as bad when people aren't doing it on purpose and it's just part of who they are, or part of social conditioning. You can't really call someone manipulative if they're not actually trying to be manipulative.

I do recognize the difference it just isn't important. The people who can't do it naturally have to fake it because it's an essential part of socializing. By saying they shouldn't do this you are actually denying them the chance to socialize. Like I said before you are basically asking them to sacrifice their own life because you don't like how it sounds to intentional be manipulative. They are doing the exact same things that everyone else does it's just the mental work required to do it differs. The hope is that it will then become natural after time, which I do believe happens to people who PUA. I'm not sure what you expect these people to do before they are able to do it naturally.

If they can't socilize naturally but they need to socialize to learn how to do it naturally this is just a necessary step. Like I said before this is the sort of thing the professionals thought me in social skills classes. They teach you what everyone else just knows instinctively. You consistently stated in this thread that you don't have a problem with people learning social skills but then you go onto to say you don't agree with this essential part of the process. That is where all the conflict came from with the other guy

Without realizing it, you were trying to hold to conflicting positions at the same time. You need to fake knowing how to socilize to learn how to socilize. It's just that simple. So I have to be thought by someone else in a very clinical way, big deal. I still don't understand why I should care that other people find this creepy. Like I should just live a solitary life to please you people who won't ever now it's happening if I'm doing it right anyway, we would just be getting along like any normal group.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 4:58pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

For what it is worth I agree with the vast vast majority of what he/she has said, seems to have a pretty good grasp on things to me.

I think the problem is that when Liah is trying to image herself in these guys shoes she does so through her own "minds eye" which brings with it all her social skills that these guys simply don't have. This is the problem with her "Just do it" advice.

It would be like someone who can squat 200kg telling a skinny guy to "Just do it" never mind training just lift the bar like I do. It completely ignores their abilities.

They don't have that ability so they need to train and in the PUA case the training involves faking a few traits for a while because their really isn't any other solution to not having social skills then to "fake it, until you make" you have to copy other people because the natural way of copying people for some reason is working for you. So you need to do classes and learn it in a clinical way or whatever.

liah · 09-06-2011 5:05pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

I wasn't actually asking for your advice with the intention of following it. I do see professionals. The reason I asked for your advice was because you kept saying these guys weren't going about it the right way and that faking a personality was creepy. You were claiming there was a better way but when asked you couldn't give a good answer.

I mentioned therapy/psychiatry/counselling, etc as much better, healthier options over PUA a few times throughout the thread, just nobody seems to want to actually read anything I've to write. I sincerely doubt a therapist or professional would advise faking your entire personality?

I find it creepy and I always will find it creepy - if it's otherwise average people faking their entire personality. But I do acknowledge that things are going to be different for people with certain conditions or problems, and I still feel professionals should be able to find a way to help someone without convincing them to become a fake person.

Your solution was basically "Disney" stuff of "be yourself" which really doesn't recognize the problem. Your other solutions involved saying simply having more confidence and becoming better at social interactions but you couldn't say how. Your advice was like telling someone with depression to not be depressed or a stressed person not to be stressed. Can you not see how this isn't actually a solution?

Your perspective on this is quite different to your average person, and you need to understand that. The advice I've given has worked for me. It's worked for people I know. But these aren't people with a condition that is known to make social interaction difficult. It's not 'bad' advice, it's just not advice that's suited to you.

The truth is PUA does help these guys. it actually tells them how to have more confidence and how to be better socially. Your solutions don't.

Really? Professionals cannot help someone build confidence? This is new to me, why do people bother going to them then?

PUA is a superficial quick fix fix imo and I believe, like I said a few times now, talking to a professional is a better solution, particularly in the interests of long-term mental health.

I do recognize the difference it just isn't important. The people who can't do it naturally have to fake it because it's an essential part of socializing. By saying they shouldn't do this you are actually denying them the chance to socialize. Like I said before you are basically asking them to sacrifice their own life because you don't like how it sounds to intentional be manipulative. They are doing the exact same things that everyone else does it's just the mental work required to do it differs. The hope is that it will then become natural after time, which I do believe happens to people who PUA. I'm not sure what you expect these people to do before they are able to do it naturally.

Okay, hold on now.

Faking an entire personality is very, very different to learning how to socialize. Which one are you talking about? Faking, or learning? Because the constant switching is confusing me.

I have a feeling we're crossing wires on this one tbh. 'Faking' implies intentional deception because you're trying to hide yourself, or manipulate the other person, and you have no intention to develop yourself. You're just fake. If you're actually talking about learning how to socialize and show who you are better, using the word 'fake' is kind of distracting. I do get what you mean now, but your wording was throwing me off a lot.

liah · 09-06-2011 5:08pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

I think the problem is that when Liah is trying to image herself in these guys shoes she does so through her own "minds eye" which brings with it all her social skills that these guys simply don't have. This is the problem with her "Just do it" advice.

It would be like someone who can squat 200kg telling a skinny guy to "Just do it" never mind training just lift the bar like I do. It completely ignores their abilities.

They don't have that ability so they need to train and in the PUA case the training involves faking a few traits for a while because their really isn't any other solution to not having social skills then to "fake it, until you make" you have to copy other people because the natural way of copying people for some reason is working for you. So you need to do classes and learn it in a clinical way or whatever.

And I equally think you have a bit of a bias here due to your condition. I'm not chalking it all up to that, by any means, I just think you expect that all these people who use PUA are like you in that they find it difficult to empathize etc. when the reality I think is probably pretty different. I'd wager they're mostly average people who are shy/insecure and would benefit much more from speaking with a professional than resorting to PUA.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 5:19pm

I wish I never mentioned I had aspergers because you are just using it to dismiss me. What I said applies to men who aren't good socially. What works for a women is a null point because standing around doing nothing will work for a woman socially.

You still don't understand why your advice is pointless. You are telling someone who is bad social interaction to just become good at it naturally which he simply can't do. You also say stuff like "Be more confident" like I said this is like telling a poor person to just be richer.

Do you really not understand how this is pointless advice? Imagine going to a mechanic with a broken car and them saying "You should fix that" and then that being the end to their solution.

Really? Professionals cannot help someone build confidence? This is new to me, why do people bother going to them then?

PUA is a superficial quick fix fix imo and I believe, like I said a few times now, talking to a professional is a better solution, particularly in the interests of long-term mental health.

I was referring to your advice of. "Be more confident" "Be yourself" etc.

Who is going to see a therapist because they can't get laid? It's just not something most are willing to do. The solution will still be the same, they will teach you what others do naturally and you basically copy this. It's literally what the professionals did for me because it's the only solution. It's a necessary evil and you seem to pretending there is a solution that doesn't involve this when there simply isn't. You are denying the reality of the problem.

Like I have also said your own experience is clouding your judgement. You don't realise that what works for you simply doesn't apply to these people. Your not a man.

Faking an entire personality is very, very different to learning how to socialize. Which one are you talking about? Faking, or learning? Because the constant switching is confusing me.

I have a feeling we're crossing wires on this one tbh. 'Faking' implies intentional deception because you're trying to hide yourself, or manipulate the other person, and you have no intention to develop yourself. You're just fake. If you're actually talking about learning how to socialize and show who you are better, using the word 'fake' is kind of distracting. I do get what you mean now, but your wording was throwing me off a lot.

This is where you are holding contradicting viewpoints. Learning how to socialize does involve faking a personality. If I just act like myself I can't socilize I have to follow the steps I'm given. These are steps that everyone else just knows naturally, I have to fake them to make me seem naturally socialable. That's just the reality of the problem which you are denying. You keep pretending there is a silver bullet solution that doesn't involve this when there isn't

When I say fake a personality I'm not talking about pretending to be some CEO who fight MMA at the weekend I just mean faking social interaction by following steps that don't come naturally to you. This is pretty much all PUA is. Things like banter don't come naturally to me so I have to study how to do it and basically pretend I can do it by following steps and stuff. Until hopefully I can do it naturally.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 5:24pm

liah wrote: »

And I equally think you have a bit of a bias here due to your condition. I'm not chalking it all up to that, by any means, I just think you expect that all these people who use PUA are like you in that they find it difficult to empathize etc. when the reality I think is probably pretty different. I'd wager they're mostly average people who are shy/insecure and would benefit much more from speaking with a professional than resorting to PUA.

I'm not talking about people who lack empathy that was just one of the tangents in the thread where you where you were basically criticizing guys for having to fake social interactions by saying they lack empathy for other person if they can deceive them.

What I said applies to guys who can't socialize not just guys who lack empathy. You can be bad a at socializing for loads of reasons but the solution will always involve faking what you can't do naturally until you can do it naturally. Again this is just a reality you are denying.

I can agree with wibbs that the language being used is pejorative like Maniuplitive,decpetion, prey etc.

These guys won't go to a professional for whatever reason so they turn to something they can study in their bedroom like PUA. It's self-medication which is never the best solution but they obviously aren't willing to go to a professional so it's the best they've got. It also works.

The only problem I have with PUA is that it's such a business that these guys are basically getting milked.

liah · 09-06-2011 5:36pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

I wish I never mentioned I had aspergers because you are just using it to dismiss me. What I said applies to men who aren't good socially. What works for a women is a null point because standing around doing nothing will work for a woman socially.

I'm not trying to dismiss you. I just think it's ironic that you're accusing me of projecting my perspective onto other people, yet you can't see that you're doing it yourself.

You still don't understand why your advice is pointless. You are telling someone who is bad social interaction to just become good at it naturally which he simply can't do. You also say stuff like "Be more confident" like I said this is like telling a poor person to just be richer.

That's not what I'm saying at all. You don't even necessarily need to be good at social interaction to find partners. To get laid and no more, then yes, probably, but I know plenty of socially awkward people who managed to find the person who suited them just by being themselves. It's not stupid advice, it's just not the kind of advice that you're looking for, and I never claimed it was the kind of advice to work for literally everyone. There isn't any advice that can do that.

Do you really not understand how this is pointless advice? Imagine going to a mechanic with a broken car and them saying "You should fix that" and then that being the end to their solution.
I was referring to your advice of. "Be more confident" "Be yourself" etc.

Starting to think you aren't listening.

Who is going to see a therapist because they can't get laid? It's just not something most are willing to do. The solution will still be the same, they will teach you what others do naturally and you basically copy this. It's literally what the professionals did for me because it's the only solution. It's a necessary evil and you seem to pretending there is a solution that doesn't involve this when there simply isn't. You are denying the reality of the problem.

I am not denying the reality of the problem, you simply refuse to accept that there's any other solution besides PUA which I am simply disagreeing with.

Therapists help people with social problems. The PUA crowd needs to make up their mind on this: is the PUA because you need to learn how to socialize, or is the PUA because you want to get laid. It's one or the other. If it's because you need to learn how to socialize, then a therapist can help you in a much more safe way. If you're using it JUST to get laid, then fine, use PUA, just don't expect women to be happy about it if they find out.

Like I have also said your own experience is clouding your judgement. You don't realise that what works for you simply doesn't apply to these people. Your not a man.

You complain about me dismissing you, then dismiss me. Make up your mind.

This is where you are holding contradicting viewpoints. Learning how to socialize does involve faking a personality. If I just act like myself I can't socilize I have to follow the steps I'm given. These are steps that everyone else just knows naturally, I have to fake them to make me seem naturally socialable. That's just the reality of the problem which you are denying. You keep pretending there is a silver bullet solution that doesn't involve this when there isn't

I think you're missing the nuances of what I said up there and I'm really not sure how to explain it any clearer than I did already.

Are you doing it because you want to learn how to socialize, or are you doing it because you want to make people think you know how to socialize?

When I say fake a personality I'm not talking about pretending to be some CEO who fight MMA at the weekend I just mean faking social interaction by following steps that don't come naturally to you. This is pretty much all PUA is. Things like banter don't come naturally to me so I have to study how to do it and basically pretend I can do it by following steps and stuff. Until hopefully I can do it naturally.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I have no problem with that. It was the 'fake' stuff that was throwing me off. Thanks for clarifying.

I still disagree with the terms and a lot of the mentality behind PUA and still believe if people are doing it because they want to learn how to build confidence, they'd be better off speaking to a professional than using PUA. But I have no problem with people who are using it to genuinely better themselves and aren't starting to think of women as objects.

SugarHigh wrote: »

I'm not talking about people who lack empathy that was just one of the tangents in the thread where you where you were basically criticizing guys for having to fake social interactions by saying they lack empathy for other person if they can deceive them.

What I said applies to guys who can't socialize not just guys who lack empathy. You can be bad a at socializing for loads of reasons but the solution will always involve faking what you can't do naturally until you can do it naturally. Again this is just a reality you are denying.

I'm not denying anything, I was just misunderstanding you.

I can agree with wibbs that the language being used is pejorative like Maniuplitive,decpetion, prey etc.

These guys won't go to a professional for whatever reason so they turn to something they can study in their bedroom like PUA. It's self-medication which is never the best solution but they obviously aren't willing to go to a professional so it's the best they've got. It also works.

The only problem I have with PUA is that it's such a business that these guys are basically getting milked.

I never said it didn't work, I just feel there's more sensible solutions, and that I personally would not want to find out I'd been used by a PUA, and that I feel there's some aspects of it that are completely unempathetic due to the terminology/having to take women down to raise yourself up thing - but as I've said throughout the entire thread, I do understand the need for some people to learn how to socialize. It's really not that part that I have a problem with.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 5:55pm

I just think it's ironic that you're accusing me of projecting my perspective onto other people, yet you can't see that you're doing it yourself.

The difference is my perspective is a lot closer to theirs than yours is. It really is true that shouldn't take advice on how to pick up women from a woman.

That's not what I'm saying at all. You don't even necessarily need to be good at social interaction to find partners. To get laid and no more, then yes, probably, but I know plenty of socially awkward people who managed to find the person who suited them just by being themselves. It's not stupid advice, it's just not the kind of advice that you're looking for, and I never claimed it was the kind of advice to work for literally everyone. There isn't any advice that can do that.

Being a socially awakward male makes it very likely you're not getting a GF. Stop denying realities.

Starting to think you aren't listening.

Everything someone disagrees with you, you go onto claim it's because they aren't listening to you. Sorry to break it to you but it is possible to understand what you're saying and still disagree with it.

I am not denying the reality of the problem, you simply refuse to accept that there's any other solution besides PUA which I am simply disagreeing with.

Come off it I am not denying there are other solutions. I have never used PUA I did in fact go the professional route.

Therapists help people with social problems. The PUA crowd needs to make up their mind on this: is the PUA because you need to learn how to socialize, or is the PUA because you want to get laid. It's one or the other. If it's because you need to learn how to socialize, then a therapist can help you in a much more safe way. If you're using it JUST to get laid, then fine, use PUA, just don't expect women to be happy about it if they find out.

Therapists are expensive and involve having to go to the a therapist which is a big barrier to a lot of people. Especially shy people.

The PUA crowds wants to learn both how to socialize and how to get laid. They can be one or they can both. Both are valid reasons for doing it.

Are you doing it because you want to learn how to socialize, or are you doing it because you want to make people think you know how to socialize?

I don't do it. I did Social skills classes to learn how to socialize this involved making people think I know how to socialize. You just don't get it.

In it's simplest terms you have to fake it to make it. I had to learn how to fake it with the hope it eventually becomes natural. Some of it did.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I have no problem with that. It was the 'fake' stuff that was throwing me off. Thanks for clarifying.

I still disagree with the terms and a lot of the mentality behind PUA and still believe if people are doing it because they want to learn how to build confidence, they'd be better off speaking to a professional than using PUA. But I have no problem with people who are using it to genuinely better themselves and aren't starting to think of women as objects.

I understand you don't like the word fake, like wibbs said a lot of the terms being used in this thread are pejorative. But it is basically what you need to do.

As for the terms the PUA use, while I'm not even familiar with most of them I do think they serve a purpose. Yes that purpose is to denigrate and objectify women but that's because this is what works. It removes the fear of women so you can then form relationships with them.

This is how I view it.
You start off looking up to women
PUA drags your view of women down so you now look down on them
After you actually form relationships with you will hopefully view them as equals.

I do think the looking down on them is an unfortunate but necessary step because it removes the fear of approaching them. You have to not care about them to not care about rejection. Fear of rejections is crippling when trying to get with women.

I'm not denying anything, I was just misunderstanding you.

Okay fair enough.

I never said it didn't work, I just feel there's more sensible solutions, and that I personally would not want to find out I'd been used by a PUA, and that I feel there's some aspects of it that are completely unempathetic due to the terminology/having to take women down to raise yourself up thing - but as I've said throughout the entire thread, I do understand the need for some people to learn how to socialize. It's really not that part that I have a problem with.

Okay again fair enough but I do view the need to tear women down as necessary. I also think most guys naturally go through a phase of looking up to women and then tearing them down below you until finally you view them as equals.

Scanlas The 2nd · 09-06-2011 6:02pm

I think there is some serious misunderstanding here going on about what it is to learn PUA. It's not about lying, it's about learning how to behave with high in a high status attractive way while keeping your own core personality just the way it is. We all have an various different personalities that our brain gives us access to in different situations. PUA is about getting access to your attractive personality more often alongside learning some tactics and techniques. A few companies have bootcamps for women too which I'm all for and have no problem with women referring to men as acronyms.

Common advice is to lean back when interacting and to hold your drink low down. Now someone could argue that that is faking their personality because they wouldn't normally lean back, but seriously if it helps someone to get success who cares.

liah · 09-06-2011 6:05pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

The difference is my perspective is a lot closer to theirs than yours is. It really is true that shouldn't take advice on how to pick up women from a woman.
Being a socially awakward makes it very likely you're not getting a GF. Stop denying realities.

I'm not denying realities, SugarHigh. I understand that it hasn't worked for you or whatever but I HAVE seen it work. It is real, it does happen - it takes longer for some people than others, and some people are luckier than others, but it's not exactly totally unrealistic. I was socially awkward, and my first ex was socially awkward, and we still managed to get together. It happens, and I don't understand why you refuse to accept that it can, especially after I said that I know that it's not something that works for literally everyone.

Everything someone disagrees with you, you go onto claim it's because they aren't listening to you. Sorry to break it to you but it is possible to understand what you're saying and still disagree with it.

It's not that I have a problem with the disagreement. I just feel you're making me repeat myself and asking me things I've already answered or making points I've already addressed. I have no problem if you don't agree with me. I'm just tired of saying the same stuff over and over.

Come off it I am not denying there are other solutions. I have never used PUA I did in fact go the professional route.
Therapists are expensive and involve having to go to the a therapist which is a big barrier to a lot of people. Especially shy people.

I still think it's a better solution than PUA, repeating over and over that PUA is easier doesn't change my opinion.

The PUA crowds wants to learn both how to socialize and how to get laid. They can be one or they can both. Both are valid reasons for doing it.
I don't do it. I did Social skills classes to learn how to socialize this involved making people think I know how to socialize. You just don't get it.

If you want me to stop dismissing you, then stop dismissing me, please. I will speak to you as you are speaking to me, so if you want me to treat you respectfully please do the same for me.

I do get it. I told you many times that I have no problem with people learning how to socialize. I completely understand that someone needs to learn things in steps to catch up to the rest of us. My point is, I don't think it's healthy to get into PUA if your only aim is to get laid, rather than the additional self-improvement.

In it's simplest terms you have to fake it to make it. I had to learn how to fake it with the hope it eventually becomes natural. Some of it did.

I understand you don't like the word fake, like wibbs said a lot of the terms being used in this thread are pejorative. But it is basically what you need to do.

Again, I'd use different phrasing, but like I said, I get it.

As for the terms the PUA use, while I'm not even familiar with most of them I do think they serve a purpose. Yes that purpose is to denigrate and objectify women but that's because this is what works. It removes the fear of women so you can then form relationships with them.

This is how I view it.
You start off looking up to women
PUA drags your view of women down so you now look down on them
After you actually form relationships with you will hopefully view them as equals.

I do think the looking down on them is an unfortunate but necessary step because it removes the fear of approaching them. You have to not care about them to not care about rejection. Fear of rejections is crippling when trying to get with women.
Okay fair enough.

Okay again fair enough but I do view the need to tear women down as necessary. I also think most guys naturally go through a phase of looking up to women and then tearing them down below you until finally you view them as equals.

I get that. I just don't want to be one of the women they end up with when they've got that in-between mentality, that's all. I also think there's probably healthier ways of going about that process but I understand it regardless.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 6:12pm

I still think it's a better solution than PUA, repeating over and over that PUA is easier doesn't change my opinion.

Professional help is is a better solution but it's also a less accessible solution. If they can't afford or don't have access to professional help what can they do? PUA seems like a good solution for a lot of people imo.

My point is, I don't think it's healthy to get into PUA if your only aim is to get laid, rather than the additional self-improvement.

But some people don't want relationships, they just want sex. If they don't have the skills to get what they want, they learn them from PUA. All makes sense to me.

Wibbs · 09-06-2011 6:28pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Being a socially awakward male makes it very likely you're not getting a GF.

I would tend to agree with SH here alright. Women IME are much more sensitive to "creepy" behaviour(for good reason). Often enough I've found the diagnosis of creepy behaviour is a guy who doesnt understand social cues. So yea socially awkward guys, unless very good looking or faux socially awkward arty types are in trouble. On the other hand I've seen real creeps operate and have no shortage of women, because they appear to be socially clued in.

Where I agree with Liah is that I don't think PUA is the way forward, or at least there could be a lot better solutions(I think SH agrees on this too). Therapy? It can be great for some and as much use as tits on a bull for others. As far as teaching the social cues involved in sexual interaction with women? I dunno if therapy would be the solution myself?

While the "be yourself" can work, it has been my experience that it "works" in a limited enough way. 1) pure dumb luck, 2) "yourself" is a good basis for an attractive adult anyway, 3) you're a woman(I refer to my previous on the sellers market) 4) first late teen/adult/proper relationships or late in life ones. As a "tactic", Im not so sure. For a start look at the popularity of this PUA stuff. It's effin huge. That's a helluva lot of men just being themselves yet going home at night alone. In my own life I know actual decent guys, far more decent than I and have spent a lifetime with little female company and a lifetime of "being themselves". These aren't all hobbits either.

liah · 09-06-2011 6:34pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Professional help is is a better solution but it's also a less accessible solution. If they can't afford or don't have access to professional help what can they do? PUA seems like a good solution for a lot of people imo.

But some people don't want relationships, they just want sex. If they don't have the skills to get what they want, they learn them from PUA. All makes sense to me.

Then why do these people not just use prostitutes?

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 6:45pm

liah wrote: »

Then why do these people not just use prostitutes?

There isn't an ego boost in scoring a prostitute*. it's also expensive and maybe they just don't find them attractive. Scoring a woman is self assuring and actually kind of addictive even if you don't like women. There is a challenge aspect and also sort of a sport to it**.

It's good for impressing your mates as well. Sometimes that's actually more of a motivation than the girl.

*You're gonna have a problem with this aren't you?:D
**and this

liah · 09-06-2011 6:50pm

That whole post is ridiculously depressing :eek:

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 6:59pm

liah wrote: »

That whole post is ridiculously depressing :eek:

It probably doesn't apply to a lot of guys if that makes you feel better but scoring women can get very competitive in a group of men.

Why is it so depressing though? It's just in a nightclub situation I don't think people think like that with relationships. I also do think women can get competitive about this stuff too although I actually they are far more likely to carry the competition aspect into relationships.

I'd slag a mate for getting with an ugly girl on a night out but if he's in a relationship I wouldn't because I think he's obviously with her for a reason so that's fair enough. I don't think guys compete with GF's but women do seem to with their BF's.

liah · 09-06-2011 7:03pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Why is it so depressing though?

Well, it's just back to the lack of consideration for how the women they're banging might feel about it, that's all. It's a very selfish attitude, using someone else to make yourself feel better. It's also pretty immature if one's only picking up girls to impress the lads. Plus the dehumanizing aspect - I always think it's kind of depressing when people can't see other people as humans but rather things to use to their own ends.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 7:12pm

liah wrote: »

Well, it's just back to the lack of consideration for how the women they're banging might feel about it, that's all. It's a very selfish attitude, using someone else to make yourself feel better. It's also pretty immature if one's only picking up girls to impress the lads. Plus the dehumanizing aspect - I always think it's kind of depressing when people can't see other people as humans but rather things to use to their own ends.

Yea I'd agree with all of that but it wouldn't stop me doing it. I'm very immature with certain things but I'm not sure how unusual it is because it seems very common.

You won't get guys to admit something like this in real life though. Even on the internet most guys wouldn't admit if they did this kind of stuff.

I always think it's kind of depressing when people can't see other people as humans but rather things to use to their own ends.

Yea maybe but I find it more depressing that women respond well to this kind of stuff. In my experience at least, the more your dehumanize women and the less empathy you have for them, the more success you have with them.

I'll be honest and say I genuinely don't care about the women point of view because as far as I'm concerned she's just some girl in a nightclub. I also think women who are done up provoke less empathy in people. It's far easier to treat a slutty looking woman badly than it is a more down to earth cute one. In a way they actually dehumanize themselves with all the make up they wear.

Wolfe Tone · 09-06-2011 7:17pm

Nothing infuriates me more than the "be yourself" crap. It's just that, crap.

The people who say it tend to have things naturally come to them, naturally socially clued in etc. When they say "be yourself" they really mean "be more like me"

As for "using prostitutes" jesus thats just daft I'm afraid.

Every guy wants to get laid, certainly young guy wants that. Telling him to go out and compensate for his lack of social skills by paying for sex is basically cheating and not addressing the problem at all.

Scanlas The 2nd · 09-06-2011 7:18pm

liah wrote: »

Then why do these people not just use prostitutes?

Why pay for sex with women who don't want to have sex with you when you can have women begging you for sex for free. Then if you decide you don't like having sex with numerous women you have the skillset to get the choose beautiful women to be your girlfriend rather than settling for less attractive women.

Also, it's not all about sex. I actually prefer the thrill of approaching and fully being myself around people to the sex, I've never felt more alive than when approaching a difficult group of women that most would be afraid to. It's amazing. No better feeling in the world. Learning this stuff can be really fun regardless of the outcome.

I can't imagine a therapist having good advice on pulling the most stunning women around. What would they say?

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 7:18pm

Just to go back to this point

the lack of consideration for how the women they're banging might feel about it,

How do they feel? I don't think the women have been completely misled if it's clear it's just a one night stand. It's also not like they will know the banter he is having with lads. Just like the guy won't what she says to get mates.

strobe · 09-06-2011 7:58pm

I think it might help if I threw out a couple of analogies (well maybe not, I just like analogies).

For some people, if you are having a hard time understanding Liah's 'outrage' at the whole PUA thing, how about analogy A.

Analogy (A). Imagine you are browsing around the internet (as you do) and you stumble upon a forum. Let's say it's called GDA.xxx. You start reading the stickies and some of the posts and you find out that GDA stands for 'Gold Digging Artists' and that the forum (with members in the thousands) is populated entirely by women talking about ways to manipulate men for financial gain. How to get guys you meet in clubs to buy you drinks, how to get guys you were in relationships to buy you gifts and give you money. How to marry guys for their money and extract the most out of them in a divorce as quickly as possible.

You read into it and this forum of women have pages and pages of psychological, emotional and physical tactics to accomplish this goal. "How to make a guy think you really love him", "How to spot lonely or vulnerable guys", "How to spot insecure guys", "How to tell which guys are willing to spend the most", "How to fool type x, y or type z guys into doing this" "The best way to make guys x believe think y so they will do z so you can get x1".

Pages of the stuff all dedicated, in the most part, to how to extract the most possible from the most easily manipulated guys (and how to spot them), for the longest you can string them along for, with the least give from yourself.

Now imagine after finding this site you then start clicking links on it to other sites, which have links to blogs, which have links to communities (both on and offline), which have links back to other forums with links to books and dvds and courses. So, you realise their are literally thousands, maybe tens or even hundereds of thousands of women actively trying to learn these psychological techniques and many of them openly bragging about how they are having so much fun getting away with it and taking out their marks and targets.

You realise that chances are, the more popular this stuff becomes, and it does seem to be becoming more popular very quickly, the more and more girls you are probably going to run into who will be using some or more of these techniques to manipulate men in this way.

Now you might say "bah, sure I'd never fall for that" but the techniques wouldn't be working if they didn't work on people who thought that.

Would you not find it a little fucked up? The fact that even though you knew these types of women existed, who wanted to do this and had the skills to pull it off, there are now whole communities of them working together perfecting the techniques and inventing new ones to share with each other, and perfecting them all through trial and error.

Would you not be a little annoyed that now that you knew this, you knew it would be even harder for you to open up and trust girls you meet because they may just be using very carefully honed and refined techniques just to get something out of you. Picking you out because you give off some signs of insecurity or creating an inception of insecurities to develop in you to then exploit?

A bit pissed off that the already difficult task of finding someone genuine that you liked and that liked you back just became all that little bit harder?

While some of the techniques were nothing more than copying techniques girls had naturally developed to attract men as they grew up that now there was whole communities and books and courses out there showing how they could be turned towards the ends that a huge chunk of the GDA community were turning them towards?

(Probably tl;dr, but I did warn you I like analogies, and I'm bored)

===================================

For Liah, if you are having a hard time understanding why people are defending the whole PUA thing. Here is analogy B.

Analogy (B).

Say there is a girl. I'm sure you have come across this girl before, because everyone has. She is kind of pretty and very very good at turning on the charm. A real sex kitten, just knows how to get guys falling for her left, right and centre. Now she's a bitch. Loves the attention and couldn't give a fuck about anyone but herself. One thing she loves doing is stringing guys along. Get's all friendly with genuinely nice but pretty insecure or shy guys, flirts like crazy with them, physically and emotionally, does her utmost to make them think she wants them, wants to be with them. But it's all just to boost her own ego. They mean nothing to her and when she gets bored she has no problem dropping them flat. Or she gets with a guy, has him fall head over heals with her and then treats them like crap before moving onto someone else that shows interest.

Now she has a female friend. They have been friends since school. Her friend is pretty insecure herself. Really nice person but a bit shy. Doesn't really have any idea how to talk to guys never mind flirt with them. No clue how to tell if they are interested in her or how to let them know she is interested in them. Has had one night stands of course but doesn't seem to be able to enrapture men like Bitchina can. So one day she says to herself "well Bitchina always has guys all over her. She seems to have them eating out of the palm of her hand. I'm going to watch her from now on. See if I can work out what she is doing that I am not..."

Now Niceina knows that Bitchina is a bitch. She has seen the way she treats people. But you can't argue with results. She clearly knows what she is doing in terms of attracting and seducing guys, even if as an outside observer Niceina knows it is all done with the most callous manipulation on her friends part. So she watches her, starts making mental notes of things she does, how the guys react, how certain guys react and how certain things work better or worse on certain guys and she starts piecing it all together step by step.

So she begins using this stuff, these little techniques, she knows they are manipulative but they work. For the first time she starts having a bit of luck with guys. Not just random guys wanting to have sex with her. She is able to use these manipulative techniques to make the guys act differently. She is able to string it out a bit and make them work to get to know her, to keep their interest even though she isn't putting out. She knows she is manipulating them because she watched Bitchina with eyes wide open and knew what she was doing and why what she was doing worked.

Is Niceina really being all that unethical in what she is doing? Is she being creepy? Is the fact that she learnt these things from a brazen and not very nice user of people enough to mean that she shouldn't do some of these things too? I mean other people not in anyway similar to her friend, good genuine people, do them too, she's seen them. They just don't seem to be aware of what they are doing when they are doing it.

Does the fact that she learnt them from a bitch, and that she is aware they are very manipulative things mean she is a manipulative bitch herself for using them?

(Yeah, definitely TL;DR. Really have to get myself PSP or something.)

Earthhorse · 09-06-2011 8:38pm

Be yourself is a non-sequitor. You are yourself; how could it be otherwise? What people really mean when they say "be yourself" is don't pretend to be someone you're not. But if that's what they mean why don't they say it? Because they know, as well as we do, that sometimes you have to "fake it to make it". You have to pretend to be more confident than you are approaching girls, chatting to guys, dancing in a crowd or whatever it might be in order to get any better at it. Few, if any, are confident at first, but those who swallow their pride, and hide their fear, sooner also progress sooner.

The message should be "be yourself" but also "grow yourself". Challenge yourself. There is nothing wrong with a bit of false bravado or putting your best foot forward. Everybody does this. And in doing so the bravado becomes real.

I have always thought of PUA as a dysfunctional reaction to the world of dating. But it's a reaction to a "system" that is already dysfunctional. People getting plastered in order to be with one another. Guys being strung along by girls who love the attention but have no intention of ever setting him straight. Girls being strung along by guys pretending to be interested in something more meaningful when really, this the girl is just a prop to occupy their time. There's a thousand other scenarios, I'm sure you know them well. All this existed before PUA. To expect functional behaviour from some of the population whilst the majority act dysfunctionally is naive.

Is this healthy? No. But the patient was already sick. Better to treat the illness and not the symptoms. We're a long way off doing that I feel. The genders have never been so free to be divided as they are today.

liah · 09-06-2011 9:03pm

Excellent post, strobe. Fleshing it out like that does help me to understand the mentality behind some of these guys. But it still doesn't really.. justify it, you know? I dunno. I'll be mulling it over for a bit.

You definitely got my perspective pretty much down though. Especially by outlining the popularity of it.

And re: 'be yourself,' yeah, I guess what I mean by that is don't be fake, but grow the parts of you you want people to notice. Just don't be deceptive about who you are, is my point, I guess.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 9:22pm

liah wrote: »

And re: 'be yourself,' yeah, I guess what I mean by that is don't be fake, but grow the parts of you you want people to notice. Just don't be deceptive about who you are, is my point, I guess.

I know I've said this a lot but this still misses the point that if being who you are is the problem you need to hide who you are until you change. If someone isn't happy and the problem is clearly with their personality then changing that just makes sense.

I just think the "be who you are" is very Disneyish. It sounds nice but isn't really a solution.

liah · 09-06-2011 9:24pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

I know I've said this a lot but this still misses the point that if being who you are is the problem you need to hide who you are until you change. If someone isn't happy and the problem is clearly with their personality then changing that just makes sense.

I just think the "be who you are" is very Disneyish. It sounds nice but isn't really a solution.

It is for a lot of people, you'd actually be surprised. But I get what you mean, some people with extremely anti-social behaviours will probably have to hide parts until they manage to get over the anti-social behaviours. But that's different from faking completely. It's still with the intent to become better, and to grow yourself as a person. Faking is just pretending with no intent to actually change.

Hence why I said a few posts ago our disagreement was down to misunderstanding.

Wolfe Tone · 09-06-2011 9:47pm

It seems that one of the main reasons why many women take issue with this is because it is a shift in the balance of power between men and women, removes the sense of control they have and puts the man solidly in the driving seat. It empowers men kinda in the way women are, ie having the women themselves doing the chasing rather than the traditional way.

Its funny really, typical situation would be with a group of girls, there is always a really hot one, some nice girls and a decidedly average one(I know it sounds mean but that's the typical formation) if you get the leader, usually the hottest one, to like you then suddenly you become way more attractive to all the other girls.

Heres an anecdote;

I was out with my friend, who I mentioned in my first post, we saw a group like that, he boldly walked up, started talking to one of the girls (the most friendly bubbly looking one, and yes one of the "plainer" ones) and blatantly ignored the hottest one (the one "he was after"). He had the group laughing and having fun (with his stories and jokes etc), the one he liked tried to but in at this point(when she saw her friends liked him), he scolded her(playfully, you know the kinda way that makes someone have a shocked laugh) and told her not to interrupt and went back to ignoring her, not even looking at her, no eye contact, nothing, and talking to her friends. At this point he had subtly moved the group so that he had his back to the wall and the group was gathered around him, LITERALLY the center of attention. She, normally the center of male attention, then had to work to get his, he teased it out until she was basically begging him to talk to her. Then he did, and he was in there. Of course once everyone saw that she was way into him he suddenly became much more attractive to all the other girls in the club.

Now if he went straight up to her he would have been shot down straight off like the half dozen other guys we saw. He totally changed the normal dynamic she was used to, she wasn't in control, he was. Every other guy probably came up and said "eh heya, can I get you a drink" or something similar, he was totally different.

The next time I met him I asked how he did it, he explained and sent me away to read the book.

Is that manipulative and wrong? Judge for yourself. I was pretty impressed. (annoyed too because I had bet him a pint he would be shot down)

He says he is pretty sh!t at this PUA thing, I dunno if he is doing it "properly" or anything but this is powerful stuff. Leggo would know better than me about whether thats typical, I've just read the book and talked to my mate a few times.

liah · 09-06-2011 9:59pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

It seems that one of the main reasons why many women take issue with this is because it is a shift in the balance of power between men and women, removes the sense of control they have and puts the man solidly in the driving seat. It empowers men kinda in the way women are, ie having the women themselves doing the chasing rather than the traditional way.

Speaking only for myself, I can say it's 100% not the case, but that's because I'm not interested in relationships with people who think it's about 'power' to begin with. Strobe's summary is a lot closer imho.

What you said sounds like what men tell themselves to make themselves feel better about it but I could be wrong - just how it sounds.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 10:00pm

liah wrote: »

It is for a lot of people, you'd actually be surprised. But I get what you mean, some people with extremely anti-social behaviours will probably have to hide parts until they manage to get over the anti-social behaviours. But that's different from faking completely. It's still with the intent to become better, and to grow yourself as a person. Faking is just pretending with no intent to actually change.

Hence why I said a few posts ago our disagreement was down to misunderstanding.

Yea ok fair enough then we are talking about the same things.

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 10:07pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

if you get the leader, usually the hottest one, to like you then suddenly you become way more attractive to all the other girls.

So true to the point of being ridiculous.:D

Is that manipulative and wrong? Judge for yourself. I was pretty impressed. (annoyed too because I had bet him a pint he would be shot down)

He says he is pretty sh!t at this PUA thing, I dunno if he is doing it "properly" or anything but this is powerful stuff. Leggo would know better than me about whether thats typical, I've just read the book and talked to my mate a few times.

Good story but I definitely view that as manipulation which isn't a negative thing, it's just what needs to be done. Fair play to the guy and the girls obviously loved it so whats the harm?

Wolfe Tone · 09-06-2011 10:08pm

liah wrote: »

Speaking only for myself, I can say it's 100% not the case, but that's because I'm not interested in relationships with people who think it's about 'power' to begin with. Strobe's summary is a lot closer imho.

What you said sounds like what men tell themselves to make themselves feel better about it but I could be wrong - just how it sounds.

Ha, I actually discussed this with a friend earlier and she was of the opinion I was right. I think you slightly misunderstood, I don't mean power within relationships, I mean about how they start, typically the man chasing. This enables a fundamental shift.

Lets go back to my nightclub scenario, women in those situations inhabit a position of power, a comfort zone. PUA changes all that and I think women feel intimidated by the fact that a man can change all that, the fact that they can so easily shatter social norms.

And as for that being what men tell themselves to feel better about it, meh I wouldnt know(can't see how you would either tbh) that was just my observation. As I said, I don't do this myself.

Wolfe Tone · 09-06-2011 10:15pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

So true to the point of being ridiculous.:D

Good story but I definitely view that as manipulation which isn't a negative thing, it's just what needs to be done. Fair play to the guy and the girls obviously loved it so whats the harm?

Yeah I don't see the harm in it either.

liah · 09-06-2011 10:19pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ha, I actually discussed this with a friend earlier and she was of the opinion I was right. I think you slightly misunderstood, I don't mean power within relationships, I mean about how they start, typically the man chasing. This enables a fundamental shift.

Lets go back to my nightclub scenario, women in those situations inhabit a position of power, a comfort zone. PUA changes all that and I think women feel intimidated by the fact that a man can change all that, the fact that they can so easily shatter social norms.

And as for that being what men tell themselves to feel better about it, meh I wouldnt know(can't see how you would either tbh) that was just my observation. As I said, I don't do this myself.

Like I said, I'm only really speaking for myself here. I've never exactly been 'in tune' with your average woman (or your average human being tbh :pac:). I'm the type to have things all equal - if I'm interested I'll go up to a guy, if he's interested then he's more than welcome to come up to me, no waiting between texts or whatever else 'normal' people do. I've never had a relationship that had any kind of power play, even in the beginning - only ever organic beginnings. So it could be true for some women, sure - but my dislike of PUA is because it's just scary to know that there are these manipulation manuals out there and that there's a higher chance now that the person who comes up to me may not be genuine than there was before (obviously there were dishonest people beforehand, but now the section of them who were too socially inept to get anywhere have a handy guide).

It could be just something I'm hypersensitive to though due to my past, even outside of romance I am terrified of being manipulated. I'm really not sure if my reaction to it/reason for my reaction to it is standard. No other women seem to be replying to the thread either so I guess we'll never know. :pac:

SugarHigh · 09-06-2011 10:22pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ha, I actually discussed this with a friend earlier and she was of the opinion I was right. I think you slightly misunderstood, I don't mean power within relationships, I mean about how they start, typically the man chasing. This enables a fundamental shift.

Lets go back to my nightclub scenario, women in those situations inhabit a position of power, a comfort zone. PUA changes all that and I think women feel intimidated by the fact that a man can change all that, the fact that they can so easily shatter social norms.

Yea I agree with this.

And as for that being what men tell themselves to feel better about it, meh I wouldnt know(can't see how you would either tbh) that was just my observation. As I said, I don't do this myself.

Yea I'm not really sure where Liah was coming from with that one. Why would the guys need to feel better about what they're doing? I promise you basically no one who is going to do PUA is going to question the ethics of it. Would they even start it if they felt there was something to be guilty about?

The only ethical problem I can see with PUA is that it basically milks money from insecure guys. Anything after that is how the guys decide to use PUA but that doesn't make the techniques unethical. Kind of like how I could go to a self defense class and then just go around starting fights with people, it doesn't make the class unethical.

liah · 09-06-2011 10:25pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Yea I'm not really sure where Liah was coming from with that one. Why would the guys need to feel better about what they're doing? I promise you basically no one who is going to do PUA is going to question the ethics of it. Would they even start it if they felt there was something to be guilty about?

Well, I just know that if I was using a bunch of canned lines/manipulation tactics on someone I would feel really guilty for manipulating them and basically making them out to be a fool, that's all.

The Ethics of PUA

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