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Nationalism and the Irish Language

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    #92
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #93
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I know.

    More Irish than Maths.
    More Religious instruction than Science.

    Priorities, eh?


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    #94
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Can you withdraw your child from religion and irish and get them a private tutor for extra math and science on ideological objections?


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    #95
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    I don't think you can send your child to avail of all aspects of public education besides Irish and Religion. Religion your child can sit out on, but afaik if enrolled in a public school, your child must learn Irish.

    You could homeschool them/get them private tuition instead of sending them to school. They might have difficulty getting into NUI universities without a pass in OL Irish in their LC, however.


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    #96
    #15
    Registered Users Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭#15


    As Herbal Deity has said, religion is optional.

    But they can't escape the ethos of the school.

    Irish, AFAIK, can not be opted out of, unless the child has an exemption. At least, not in schools that follow the NCCA curriculum.

    Don't quote me on that though.


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    #97
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    foxcomm wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Well I can trace my family directly back to the 1500's in this country, which few enough can and my DNA is at least a 1000 yrs before that and more than a few members of my family fought and died for this nation while others hid behind their mothers skirts.

    I can't speak Irish, have little interest in doing so(mostly because of my experience of those who seek to beat me over the head with it's "cultural importance), have never played GAA of any nature(though am well impressed by hurlers) and can't abide most "Irish" trad music*. Yet you claim I may be less Irish than you?

    The best of us lived in a self decided future, mindful of the past, but not pickled uselessly by it. That's how such as those created the conditions for this very state. If a GAAAA playing insular Gaelgoir type is your definition of being Irish then I would happily lay down my claim to it. It certainly wouldn't be my definition. Indeed to define it is to lose it in so many ways.




    *save for the pipes and Sean-nós type singing. Must be my actually ancient genetics kicking in :rolleyes:

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #98
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    foxcomm wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Oh dear, another armchair nationalist scoring an own-goal for the cause...
    #15 wrote: »
    Just to clarify, it is about 3 and a half hours per week, not per day. Don't think even the most ardent 'nationalist' could support 3 hours per day of Gaeilge!
    Where did I read per day then? My mistake.
    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but has Irish not experienced a revival in the last 10/20 years?
    TBH it is presently impossible to say. One of the problems with measuring the usage of the language is there are no objective, impartial measurement of it. On one side you have laughable metrics such as in the census, where you can 'assess yourself' and on the other hand you have surveys and assessments carried out by various government departments who have vested interests in keeping the numbers up.

    I remember, in university, a girl I knew who grew up in the Gaeltacht, who could speak as much Irish as me (which is negligible) but was classified as an Irish speaker. According to her, an inspector would come round and practically coach you along during the language test and then mark you down as a speaker. Who knows what percentage of official figures have been massaged like this as a result.


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    #99
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #100
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    *shrug

    While I wouldn't oppose change, I don't think it's such a huge issue. Personally, I received a thoroughly excellent primary education. While some parents might have an issue with the teaching of Irish and Catholicism, I think to consider this to be detrimental to the Irish education system to the point of it being an embarassment to the state is a silly notion.


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    #101
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    *shru

    While I wouldn't oppose change, I don't think it's such a huge issue. Personally, I received a thoroughly excellent primary education. While some parents might have an issue with the teaching of Irish and Catholicism, I think to consider this to be detrimental to the Irish education system to the point of it being an embarassment to the state is a silly notion.
    While I am not anti religion, I do not think it is the state's place to be teaching it. As for Irish I think the money and time ciuld be spent elsewhere especially on school infrastructure. The playground of the local school looks like something out of auchwitz.


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    #102
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    While I am not anti religion, I do not think it is the state's place to be teaching it. As for Irish I think the money and time ciuld be spent elsewhere especially on school infrastructure. The playground of the local school looks like something out of auchwitz.
    Of course it could. My point is that the state of affairs isn't so bad that considering private tuition would be a sensible option IMO.

    Personally, I would get rid of religion in an instant if I could.

    @donegalfella
    Forgot to respond to your question re: university. Yes, one can go to Trinity, UL, DCU, any of the IT's and anywhere except UCD, UCC, NUIM or NUIG afaik, without needing a pass in Irish. However, a pass in a language which is not English is usually required.


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    #103
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #104
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
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    How would having no compulsory subjects work at primary level?

    I would tend to agree at secondary level, except for maths, that's the one subject that I just really believe is necessarily compulsory.


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    #105
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    The Irish pre-requisite applies only to NUI member colleges. If one is born outside of the state, you are exempt. At least this was the story back in the day, so I'm not sure it does any more.
    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    While some parents might have an issue with the teaching of Irish and Catholicism, I think to consider this to be detrimental to the Irish education system to the point of it being an embarassment to the state is a silly notion.
    I really don't know what the situation with religion in Irish schools is nowadays, all I can do is speak from my own experience of it in my own youth.

    In primary school we had a complete nut teaching us. He was a Legion of Mary fanatic and took it upon himself to teach us two hours of religion class every day. This is not an exaggeration.

    All my secondary schools were religiously run and while there was a general ethos of religion it was actually pushed far less than in primary school. The only exception to this was one religion/civics lay teacher who on one occasion talked to us about how "everyone hears the call of God". Spotting a logical flaw in this I asked him how one could hear such a call if one did not believe in God (it was an abstract question, I made no claim of atheism myself). He went quite insane and demanded as to what I was "doing in a Catholic school - a Catholic country!"

    I was quite young at the time and how an adult could be so stupid actually confused me. I've since come to understand the nature of the Bell curve.

    Post-nineties, I suspect the religious landscape of Irish schools has changed somewhat.

    As to its teaching, it's not necessarily a bad thing - more correctly, some form of moral imprinting is probably a good idea at an early age and religion fits the bill regardless of the trappings. I still get a warm fuzzy feeling from Christmas, long after I realized that Santa didn't exist, after all.


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    #106
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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    #107
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    So, in your view, would the views expressed in my earlier post just be silly idealism?

    Is utility the only reason to teach anything?


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    #108
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    So, in your view, would the views expressed in my earlier post just be silly idealism?

    Is utility the only reason to teach anything?
    yes,but then wed have to agree on what is useful. I suppose youd like us to study mesopotamian for fun too.


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    #109
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    I wouldn't see any harm in it, in fact it'd likely be a very positive educational experience.

    It would be a rather arbitrary choice for a compulsory subject compared to Irish, however.


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    #110
    Permabear
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    #111
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Heh, this reminds me of atheists who think all Christians are creationists.

    Personally, I have no time for such nationalist rhetoric, nor rhetoric such as yours above.

    Why have Irish compulsory? IMO because there is educational value to learning a language other than one's mother tongue.

    One might argue why not French or German. My counter argument would be that it would be essentially sacrificing what I consider to be a nice cultural aspiration to add a small amount of extra utility to a child's education.

    If there were arguments for huge benefits of teaching French or German over Irish, I might be persuadable, but I don't see them really.

    "Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam" is a nice concept really, and the idea that national and cultural identity is closely linked with a unique language is not a purely Irish idea.

    You could argue that it is not the place of a state to promote any one culture or ideology, i.e. the nation state model is flawed, or at least that it is flawed in the context of Ireland, and you might well be right, but that's a much larger debate and has much bigger implications than the promotion of the Irish language.


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    #112
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    foxcomm wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Though it is clear from your response to #15 that you will also regard me as anti-Irish, I feel obliged to respond to your misty-eyed view of the GAA and its allegedly symbiotic relationship with the Irish language and culture.

    I find much to disagree with in your post, especially the bolded bit. I do not play Gaelic Games. I do not like Gaelic Games. I neither watch nor attend Gaelic Games, despite having been brought up in a dreary little backwater of a place with nothing going for it except for some sort of bizarre pride in "the local club". In every corner of Ireland GAA clubs such as these help to perpetuate a backward, parish pump 'them-and-us' mentality and they have inhibited the onset of a more cosmopolitan outlook. In some cases they can even set county against county when it comes to the provision of infrastructure. (It's not just Gaelic Games that I don't like btw; I just find the GAA to be the most parochial and inward-looking of all sporting organisations that I'm familiar with).
    With regard to the language, I share the views of Wibbs, donegalfella et al.
    As for "Irish culture" - and without even attempting a definition of what that really is, if it exists at all - let's think about the stultifying repression, prudishness and insularity that prevailed here for most of the last century. Let's consider the rape and abuse by Irish clergymen and the complicity of a culturally sick lay population steeped in an abominable deference to an intellectually dead wing of the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that women here had to leave work upon marriage until the 1970s, and that unconventional girls were stuffed en masse into Magdalene laundries. Let's not forget about the nod and the wink of the cute hoor and about the pothole filling exploits of our gombeen backbench TDs. And then let's think about how we've destroyed our countryside with one-off housing, and about how most Irish young people can't think beyond getting sloshed on alcohol in some club every single weekend of the year, and about the shocking cultural immaturity that STILL deludes so many of us into thinking that it's great to be Irish (as opposed to being, say, American or French or Dutch or English or Japanese) as we annoyingly ask all celebrities to tell us about their Irish ancestry on the Late Late Show. Oh without a doubt, 'tis a great little country alright.

    None of the above things are worthy of pride. They are all shameful at worst or embarrassing at best. But many GAA and Irish language enthusiasts insist that this is still a great country, despite ALL evidence to the contrary.
    Let's face it: The teaching of Irish isn't really about learning the language. It was never about that. It was and continues to be an attempt at overt indoctrinisation. The doctrine is flawed and redundant, and I would even say that it is creepy in a 21st-century context. It's time to throw the whole lot out and to start again. Get the church out of the schools. Let's have no more primary teachers prepping kids for communion and other rituals. If schools are going to teach sports, let there be options (as opposed to the obsession with Gaelic Games in certain country schools) when it comes to sports and languages. And let there be an end to the foisting of a 'Gaelic' identity on the citizens of the so-called 'Republic' of Ireland.
    "The initial plan was to resurrect the ancient Tailteann Games and establish an independent Irish organisation for promoting athletics, but hurling and Gaelic football eventually predominated. The following goals were set out:
    1. To foster and promote native Irish pastimes
    2. To open athletics to all social classes
    3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties
    The association's basic aim today is stated as:
    The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic games and pastimes."

    This assumes several things, one of which is that we all have a Gaelic heritage, which just isn't true.


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    #113
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #114
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    And Ive proven with referece to the Penal Laws, Education Act of 1831 which forbade Irish, and the banning of publication of all Irish literature that it was not a natural language shift due to cultural and modernising changes, rather a deliberate attack by the British state on the Irish language.

    The supporting of Gaeltacht areas by irish language projects is a logical way to boost disadvantaged local economies whilst also helping maintain an indiginous language.

    Irish is at its strongest now in cities like Dublin, Belfast and Galway.
    There are more children than ever in Irish speaking schools in these cities which translates to action by these childrens parents for a future in which Irish is spoken.

    To quote Rev Boyd a Gaelic speaking Presbytarian from Ulster (he has Gaelic speaking services and congregation).
    Actually, living here in the North, I find that I speak Irish pretty well every day to someone. There really is an Irish language community and someone will be on the phone most days with a bit of business or just for a chat. It is not a dead language. It may be fading in the Gaeltacht but it is very much alive in the cities. For me, learning to speak Irish has meant discovering a new dimension to the city I have known all my life.

    No doubt the presence of people like Boyd and these Irish speaking communities will be bad news for Irish language haters like yourself but it does certainly this proves the dead language theory.


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    #115
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    In your childhood years, you are most receptive to language. I have always hated the Irish language and hated having to learn it in school, but I can still understand TG4 a fair bit. Like many others, I feel much of the language is now set in stone in my head, and that angers me somewhat. How I wish that a USEFUL secondary language had been hammered into me in school in those early years in the same way. I'd gladly substitute all my knowledge of Gaeilge for French or German. I did do German later on but boy am I rusty.

    Oh and I hate nationalism...makes my skin crawl.


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    #116
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #117
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Furet wrote: »

    I find much to disagree with in your post, especially the bolded bit. I do not play Gaelic Games. I do not like Gaelic Games. I neither watch nor attend Gaelic Games, despite having been brought up in a dreary little backwater of a place with nothing going for it except for some sort of bizarre pride in "the local club".

    You need to expand here. Was the local club overall a positive or negative factor for young people in the area?

    If it was negative what would you replace it with?

    Are you ashamed of where you are from? If you know nothing about the GAA then where are your perceptions coming from?
    In every corner of Ireland GAA clubs such as these help to perpetuate a backward, parish pump 'them-and-us' mentality and they have inhibited the onset of a more cosmopolitan outlook.

    I was a member of the local GAA club also a member of the local soccer club. Played badminton and quite a lot of golf too. I played GAA until I was 18. I can honestly say that I never once had a conversation relating to politics in any GAA situation. Didnt arise.
    With regard to the language, I share the views of Wibbs, donegalfella et al.
    As for "Irish culture" - and without even attempting a definition of what that really is, if it exists at all - let's think about the stultifying repression, prudishness and insularity that prevailed here for most of the last century.
    Let's consider the rape and abuse by Irish clergymen and the complicity of a culturally sick lay population steeped in an abominable deference to an intellectually dead wing of the Catholic Church. And let's not forget that women here had to leave work upon marriage until the 1970s, and that unconventional girls were stuffed en masse into Magdalene laundries. Let's not forget about the nod and the wink of the cute hoor and about the pothole filling exploits of our gombeen backbench TDs. And then let's think about how we've destroyed our countryside with one-off housing, and about how most Irish young people can't think beyond getting sloshed on alcohol in some club every single weekend of the year, and about the shocking cultural immaturity that STILL deludes so many of us into thinking that it's great to be Irish (as opposed to being, say, American or French or Dutch or English or Japanese) as we annoyingly ask all celebrities to tell us about their Irish ancestry on the Late Late Show. Oh without a doubt, 'tis a great little country alright.

    You have to take a balanced view of a countries history. The list of positives may be longer. From a rural agri-dependent state at independence we transformed ourselves into one of the leading nations in the EC at the centre of a lot of that organistations thinking for most of the last 20 years.

    The first ever female MP was an Irish woman. There were six Irish women elected in the 1917 election an unprecedented amount in the history of democracy. publicans

    There were set backs of course when the side with the women (the republicans) were defeated in the civil war. If youre so concerned about the fate of Irish women then Im sure you will know of the fate of female republican politicians/politicians wives post civil war (**** beat out of them repeatedly/ beat out of politics).

    If you hate the catholic church then you know that the side having supporting the catholic church won the civil war. There is your 50 years until 1973.

    Let's face it: The teaching of Irish isn't really about learning the language. It was never about that. It was and continues to be an attempt at overt indoctrinisation. The doctrine is flawed and redundant, and I would even say that it is creepy in a 21st-century context.

    Not suprisingly you cant support your rant.

    It's time to throw the whole lot out and to start again.

    ??????
    Get the church out of the schools. Let's have no more primary teachers prepping kids for communion and other rituals.

    I agree completely.
    And let there be an end to the foisting of a 'Gaelic' identity on the citizens of the so-called 'Republic' of Ireland.

    Ive never had the Gaelic identity foisted on me.

    I spoke some Irish at home and learned English and Irish at school along with other languages.
    This assumes several things, one of which is that we all have a Gaelic heritage, which just isn't true

    Other things you have assumed is that you can substantiate any of the generalisations you have made.

    We must assume that you are a person of action that you campaign to change things here, or do you just sit on your arse and complain like the other hypocrites?


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    #118
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    English is the lingua franca of Science and Business. French and German are of little use to anyone unless they wish to emigrate.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You're going back to utility again...

    I see Irish as generally a purely academic language.
    donegalfella wrote:
    This post has been deleted.
    Surely it's the teaching of the language that is an issue rather than the language itself?

    If French was taught the same way Irish is taught, and if French JC and LC exams were structured the same way as the Irish exams are, it'd be equally as resented as Irish is.


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    #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    English is the lingua franca of Science and Business. French and German are of little use to anyone unless they wish to emigrate.

    if you do some job searches online or in the newspapers (for within Ireland), you will find plenty of jobs asking for people bilingual in French, German, Spanish, etc. I've seen very very few jobs asking for someone fluent in Irish.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    T runner wrote: »
    And Ive proven with referece to the Penal Laws, Education Act of 1831 which forbade Irish, and the banning of publication of all Irish literature that it was not a natural language shift due to cultural and modernising changes, rather a deliberate attack by the British state on the Irish language.

    Actually, you dropped in the line about the Education Act, and then disappeared when queried about it. That's hardly any realistic concept of proving something... (If you need a reminder just go back to page 2). And as for the British attacks, you have yet to counter anything I have said in response to your claims. And yes, they are claims. Not fact.


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    #121
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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