Legalise abortion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...nal_attainment

Only 13% of Australians have a degree?

Well I didnt trust Wikipedia so I went to the source it referened ( index 12), and it does seem correct. Useful site that actually.

http://sda.berkeley.edu:8080/quicktables/quicksetoptions.do?reportKey=gss04%3A1

jhegarty wrote: »

And there are ground for me to legally shoot someone. I still wouldn't say shooting people was legal.

Its legal for a garda to use a firearm against a criminal in particular cases.
Same is true for a doctor/surgeon.

Its a simplistic argument to assume because you can't legally do something others can't either.

believe me turgon, pro choicers are just as passionate

studiorat wrote: »

Fact is women "can and do" have access to medical abortion in Ireland outside of the law. Mifepristone is readily available via internet sites, so it happens regardless.

http://www.abortion-pill-online.com/indexall.php

So what? Just because something happens doesn't mean that it should be legal here. Several things happen, theft happens, murder happens, rape happens. Yet these things aren't legal.

As for Mifepristone, if the Irish Government truly adhered to their constitution there would be some customs arrangement about that, but as you say there isn't.

studiorat wrote: »

There's even aftercare available in Ireland for women who have had an abortion either types. So in fact the law is forcing people to workoutside it.

I'm failing to get the point here.

studiorat wrote: »

According to the Irish Medical news, most research into attitudes among Irish doctors found that the majority are not anti-abortion. And most of ob/gyns have provided abortion when they worked elsewhere.

Again, irrelevance. The majority of the people currently oppose it. I don't base my view on abortion on what doctors think. It's obvious biologically that abortion is killing.

studiorat wrote: »

Whether or not you choose to start name calling and be judge and jury your self is irrevelant it's actually happening...

You're fine to have your opinion. However to say that something should be legal because it occurs is absolutely ridiculous.

studiorat wrote: »

I'm just stating that the law as it stands if sterile. It's still possible to have an abotrion and recieve aftercare from your GP.

The law says that you can only get an abortion in Ireland if there is a risk to your life. That's it.

studiorat wrote: »

By your comparison of Rape and Murder I suppose you are saying women who choose to have an abotrion should be jailed?

It should be punishable yes. I personally would punish those who prescribe abortions, and provide mental health assistance to the mothers. Obviously other pro-lifers would suggest harsher punishment. I think the women who go through abortions in many cases are also victims. Abortion can have horrible results on the mental and physical health of women. People say women have abortions to avoid the potential effects of pregnancy, this is absurd considering there are just as many if not more potential side effects of abortion.

Where to begin with this...

SLUSK wrote: »

Abortions should be legalised in Ireland. In the long run it will help bring crime down because potential criminals will not be born. It is a well known fact that poor people commit more crimes, they also have more kids out of wedlock and so on. If these women can have abortions instead it would be good for all of us.

As has already been pointed out, this is a ridiculous argument. It also means that plenty of good people would not be born. And if the people are so poor, then who pays for the abortion? An already strained health service, funded by... that's right, us. As someone else mentioned, if you want to stop poor people having children, then why not go down the sterilisation route? (I don't agree with this obviously).

SLUSK wrote: »

A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus.

So when do you recognise a child as being a child? At the point of birth? (I'd be very interested in the reply to this)

SLUSK wrote: »

A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

This sounds so cold. Like it's removing a wart or a cancerous lump. Anyway, if someone "owns" the foetus, surely the woman AND man "own" it?

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

Why should they have the option? They've already had the option. They chose to have sex (. I'll deal with rape cases later on in this post).

turgon wrote: »

Theres a lot of pro-life stuff I think is rubbish. In terms of the end, I dont think theres a huge discrepancy between abortion and contraception - at the end of the day both prevent a person from growing. When you use a condom you deny your sperm and egg permission to be a fully grown human. Its not that I care, I just think that if one is anti-abortion one cant be all for contraception either.

I can see your point to an extent. Contraception, for the most part, stops the sperm from meeting the egg, so an unborn child/foetus is never created. I can see the argument against the morning after pill however.

studiorat wrote: »

Fact is women "can and do" have access to medical abortion in Ireland outside of the law. Mifepristone is readily available via internet sites, so it happens regardless.

So just because it happens regardless, we should legalise it? Riiiiight... rape, murder, torture all happen regardless anyway, so why not legalise these too?

studiorat wrote: »

There's even aftercare available in Ireland for women who have had an abortion either types.

Yeah and there are treatment programmes for drug addicts...


Boston has made a good points in this thread. Abortion is allowed in cases where the mother's life is at risk.

To address the issue of legalising it in cases of rape, which appears from the link to that map of world is the situation in some countries, I don't think we should go down this route.
There was a case only in the last week or so where a woman made false rape accusations, I think the reason given was because a taxi driver gave her a "dirty look" when she was drunk. Imagine the number of false rape claims that would destroy lives and reputations if girls thought this was the only way to get an abortion. I'll also point out there is the morning after pill and the option of adoption. Also, does anyone has statistics on what percentage of abortions are due to rape? I would doubt strongly it's even in double figures out of the total abortions worldwide.

I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by what's written on here, most people have very strong, set views on this topic either way, but it is interesting to hear these views IMO (once exchanges are kept civil ).

studiorat wrote: »

So which is it to be, punish those who provide assistance or not?

I didn't say that, I said two actions we should do:

1) Punish those who prescribe abortions
and
2) Provide mental health assistance

Two separate actions. My phrasing was bad.

studiorat wrote: »

Or just leave those "victims" be. Perhaps they could go live in a convent.

I haven't mentioned anything about a convent. I personally think psychologists are better trained than nuns to deal with mental issues.

studiorat wrote: »

I seriously think your use of the word victims displays exactly how little you really do understand about these issues.

Many many women are victims. Post Abortion Syndrome is not something to be scoffed at. Many women regret their actions for the rest of their lives. There are also many potential physical health effects of abortion which you seem to also scoff at. Without wishing to get into a pedantic tit for tat debate I would argue it shows how little you understand about the issue.

Fugly: What you can do with your own body is fine. We aren't talking about that though. You are discussing what you want to do with someone elses body. It must be one of the biggest fallacies in the abortion debate.

As for women not making the decision lightly, I'd disagree. Many regard abortion as mere contraception. In Russia in 2006 there was more abortions than live births.

I think they should leagalise it. Not because it will stop criminals because you can't say if somebodys going to be a criminal or not. They should legalize it becuase the mother may not beable to cope or it might be handicapped in some way or if the mother has been raped it's not fair.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's clear alright. It's just a terrible reason.

I do not have the right to decide what happens to your life or your body. Likewise I don't feel that any woman has the right to decide what happens to a child, or their body while forming in the womb. They are two separate bodies.

It's rather simple. The real decision comes before conception. You have two options:

1) Use contraception - There is still a risk of pregnancy here, you will have to take that risk.

2) Abstain until you are in a stable enough situation to have a child or to start a family.

I personally think the right of life comes above peoples conjugal rights.

I agree to some extent. They should not beable to hbe an abortion just because they don't want of but say the child was going to be in agony and pain all it's life? Or the family was really poor and it would have a crap life? Surley then there should be an acception. What if the mother got raped? Then what is she supposed to do if she's not going to want or care for a baby concieved with such means. It's all about the quality life, is it going to have a good life or is it better off not being born if the baby is going to be miserable all it's life.

Ok, I kind of get the feeling we're not going to agree.

I don't think that having a child is necessarily the best thing for it, the mother [or the legislation] is making a choice either way. So I don't think by having it you are avoiding making a decision regarding someone else's life, you are and it may not be the right one.
Also regarding abortion in the majority of places it's practiced there is a cut off point. I know there are late abortions available, a very touchy area as the times are constantly reviewed using the latest scientific research.

And it bothers me a little that we talking about what gives one human the right to decide the the choices of another's life{to legalise i.e allow the choice}, when the arguement of the possible human child has more rights than a thinking breathing human is used.

I could not be more behind the promotion of safe sex, I also believe sex ed should not just be a "don't get pregnant" lesson it should be a compehensive education of everything to do with sex. The emotional/pyschological as well as the physical aspect. I believe in doing so and having an sexually aware population would cut down on std's and unwanted pregnancies. {A very long tangent I'm sorry but I do agree alot of decisions are made before the couple get into bed.}

I shoud say here, I'm a scientist, [biology] It may clarify why I do not consider it a "baby" from conception, because it's not.

Also on a personal point, I realise this is usually a forum for theory but I feel it's relevant. You say I've 2 options, I believe more. I am very careful with who I have sex with, screening is a neccessity before sex and I inform him I would have a abortion if the need arose.
Also abstain.....thats a very personal thing to suggest and I'd like to point out what a success such movements have been in the US, most are not sexually informed young people and when they do *slip* they are more likely not use protection, not smart by anyone's standards.
But if informed people want to abstain, great for them. However I don't want to die without ever having sex again. Sex is a healthy part of being a person in a healthy relationship. It is something to be enjoyed and cherished.

You may have guessed I don't plan on having children, ever. Please spare me the "I'm too young/I'll change my mind" speech. Every generation contains a percentage who don't reproduce, in all organisms.