Horses that never filled their potential

Morgans · 28-04-2020 4:52pm

And this is where you can see his heart actually break. (4m10s if i've ballsed up the link)

The Tetrarch · 28-04-2020 11:43pm

Morgans wrote: »

Probably the worst example is the idea that he was the second coming

The "second coming who kept coming second" reflected the boredom felt by racegoers who listened to the Coolmore/Ballydoyle hype that spring and every spring.
If you backed Hawk Wing to even stakes in all starts you would have won 5.10 and lost 7.00, a loss of 1.90. He started favourite 10 times in 12 races.

madmoose · 29-04-2020 11:39am

I know alot of juveniles dont train on after their 4 year old season but Peace and Co was a huge flop after his triumph hurdle winning season.

Morgans · 29-04-2020 11:40am

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The "second coming who kept coming second" reflected the boredom felt by racegoers who listened to the Coolmore/Ballydoyle hype that spring and every spring.
If you backed Hawk Wing to even stakes in all starts you would have won 5.10 and lost 7.00, a loss of 1.90. He started favourite 10 times in 12 races.

Im not sure why that should matter. You call it hype and then when he does produce it on the track, you say it cant be true. I'd never heard anyone refer to him as "second coming who kept coming second" until you did. If anything he was crabbed for a lack of effort, head going sligtly up in the air etc. All of which was unfair. There have been plenty of other talking horses that have been reported to be brilliant but done far less.

Personally think he was robbed by a poor ride in the Guineas, never going to stay 12f and still would have won many Derbies - High Chapparal being one of the better winners - and I think Moon Ballad beaten 12l in third.

The Tetrarch · 29-04-2020 12:15pm

Morgans wrote: »

Im not sure why that should matter. You call it hype and then when he does produce it on the track, you say it cant be true. I'd never heard anyone refer to him as "second coming who kept coming second" until you did. If anything he was crabbed for a lack of effort, head going sligtly up in the air etc. All of which was unfair. There have been plenty of other talking horses that have been reported to be brilliant but done far less.

Personally think he was robbed by a poor ride in the Guineas, never going to stay 12f and still would have won many Derbies - High Chapparal being one of the better winners - and I think Moon Ballad beaten 12l in third.

I know about Hawk Wing's record. I never backed him. Allow me a bit of aftertiming, but I backed High Chaparral in the English Derby and Grandera in the Irish Champion.
There was talk that the offspring of Woodman, Hawk Wing's sire, were not up for a battle. I wasn't sure about that but I kept it in mind.

Now on to the quotes. I am surprised you have not heard of them.
This is from Racehorses of 2002, an annual published by Timeform.
Hawk Wing got a six and a half page write up. Most horses get four lines.
"If Hawk Wing needed rescuing in the spring, it was from his admirers .... his form had been arguably a little behind that of Dewhurst winner Rock of Gibraltar."
"At the stable's open day, it wasn't Rock of Gibraltar's or High Chaparral's name - or even that of the top two-year-old of 2001 Johannesburg - that was on trainer Aidan O'Brien's lips. 'It's a dream, but if you have a Triple Crown winner, it's Hawk Wing' O'Brien was quoted as saying"
If the rumour mill was to be believed, O'Brien's remarks stemmed not only from the belief that Hawk Wing was the best horse in his yard, as well as the best O'Brien had trained, but also from the conviction that he was as good as any trained there in the time of his predecessor at Ballydoyle, Vincent O'Brien, including Nijinsky, the last Triple Crown winner. The public took note.
"A new wonder horse?" asked the Racing Post on the morning of the race (2000 Guineas) alongside a picture of Hawk Wing."
"For some, any discussion of Hawk Wing's optimum trip will be overshadowed by talk of his temperament. The "Second Coming who keeps coming second" and "a big girl's blouse" were two of the comments about him which made it into print towards the end of his campaign.

kksaints · 29-04-2020 12:20pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I know about Hawk Wing's record. I never backed him. Allow me a bit of aftertiming, but I backed High Chaparral in the English Derby and Grandera in the Irish Champion.
There was talk that the offspring of Woodman, Hawk Wing's sire, were not up for a battle. I wasn't sure about that but I kept it in mind.

Now on to the quotes. I am surprised you have not heard of them.
This is from Racehorses of 2002, an annual published by Timeform.
Hawk Wing got a six and a half page write up. Most horses get four lines.
"If Hawk Wing needed rescuing in the spring, it was from his admirers .... his form had been arguably a little behind that of Dewhurst winner Rock of Gibraltar."
"At the stable's open day, it wasn't Rock of Gibraltar's or High Chaparral's name - or even that of the top two-year-old of 2001 Johannesburg - that was on trainer Aidan O'Brien's lips. 'It's a dream, but if you have a Triple Crown winner, it's Hawk Wing' O'Brien was quoted as saying"
If the rumour mill was to be believed, O'Brien's remarks stemmed not only from the belief that Hawk Wing was the best horse in his yard, as well as the best O'Brien had trained, but also from the conviction that he was as good as any trained there in the time of his predecessor at Ballydoyle, Vincent O'Brien, including Nijinsky, the last Triple Crown winner. The public took note.
"A new wonder horse?" asked the Racing Post on the morning of the race (2000 Guineas) alongside a picture of Hawk Wing."
"For some, any discussion of Hawk Wing's optimum trip will be overshadowed by talk of his temperament. The "Second Coming who keeps coming second" and "a big girl's blouse" were two of the comments about him which made it into print towards the end of his campaign.

Now there's a horse who didn't train on after a great 2 year old campaign.

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2020 12:25pm

Teofilo.

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2020 12:28pm

Go Native

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2020 12:29pm

Sir Percy

longshotvalue · 29-04-2020 12:36pm

Hawk Wings 2000 performance was outstanding , considering his side was 10-15 lengths behind with only 2 to go. Spencer actually did well and the horse put in a superb effort to get anywhere near to Rock of Gibraltar (who couldnt have done more to frank the form).

paddythere · 29-04-2020 12:40pm

Cinders and Ashes

The Tetrarch · 29-04-2020 12:44pm

Morgans wrote: »

Hawk Wing is an easy target. O'Brien knew how good he was and it was clear how disgusted Spencer was when he lost the Guineas on him. Won his side of the draw by 8l and wasn't asked to win his race until too late.

The stories get better with time and telling, the fish get bigger.
Amaram 6th beaten 5 1/4 lengths.
"Raced stands side, chased leaders, ridden over 2f out, stayed on same pace approaching final furlong"

Hawk Wing " headway over 2f out"

Morgans · 29-04-2020 12:45pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I know about Hawk Wing's record. I never backed him. Allow me a bit of aftertiming, but I backed High Chaparral in the English Derby and Grandera in the Irish Champion.
There was talk that the offspring of Woodman, Hawk Wing's sire, were not up for a battle. I wasn't sure about that but I kept it in mind.

Now on to the quotes. I am surprised you have not heard of them.
This is from Racehorses of 2002, an annual published by Timeform.
Hawk Wing got a six and a half page write up. Most horses get four lines.
"If Hawk Wing needed rescuing in the spring, it was from his admirers .... his form had been arguably a little behind that of Dewhurst winner Rock of Gibraltar."
"At the stable's open day, it wasn't Rock of Gibraltar's or High Chaparral's name - or even that of the top two-year-old of 2001 Johannesburg - that was on trainer Aidan O'Brien's lips. 'It's a dream, but if you have a Triple Crown winner, it's Hawk Wing' O'Brien was quoted as saying"
If the rumour mill was to be believed, O'Brien's remarks stemmed not only from the belief that Hawk Wing was the best horse in his yard, as well as the best O'Brien had trained, but also from the conviction that he was as good as any trained there in the time of his predecessor at Ballydoyle, Vincent O'Brien, including Nijinsky, the last Triple Crown winner. The public took note.
"A new wonder horse?" asked the Racing Post on the morning of the race (2000 Guineas) alongside a picture of Hawk Wing."
"For some, any discussion of Hawk Wing's optimum trip will be overshadowed by talk of his temperament. The "Second Coming who keeps coming second" and "a big girl's blouse" were two of the comments about him which made it into print towards the end of his campaign.

I wouldn't have taken any notice of him being called a big girls blouse either as both are meaningless.

Morgans · 29-04-2020 12:46pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The stories get better with time and telling, the fish get bigger.
Amaram 6th beaten 5 1/4 lengths.
"Raced stands side, chased leaders, ridden over 2f out, stayed on same pace approaching final furlong"

Hawk Wing " headway over 2f out"

Now, do the Lockinge form.

The Tetrarch · 29-04-2020 12:47pm

Morgans wrote: »

Now, do the Lockinge form.

That's all he's got.

Morgans · 29-04-2020 12:50pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

That's all he's got.

And an unlucky neck second to Rock of Gibraltar racing on the worst ground in the Guineas. And a 2l second in the Derby to High Chapparal over a distance that was too far.

And the Lockinge form.

Clique · 29-04-2020 12:54pm

A horse that never had the chance to fulfill their potential was Fethard Lady, she was a horse that could well have dominated for a few years coming through just as one of the strongest divisions at the time started to wain with Hardy Eustace, Brave Inca, Harchibald, Macs Joy all about to start downgrading around that time.

Other notables who never kicked on were Franchoek and Dunguib. On the flat losing both Teofilo and Holy Roman Emperor was a personal blow as they had some cracking battles potentially coming up at 3yo after the great races at 2. Harbinger was another who never really got the chance at G1 level again after his King George win. That was a stunning stand alone win.

The Tetrarch · 29-04-2020 1:18pm

Morgans wrote: »

And an unlucky neck second to Rock of Gibraltar racing on the worst ground in the Guineas. And a 2l second in the Derby to High Chapparal over a distance that was too far.

And the Lockinge form.

There is a six and a half page write up on Hawk Wing in racehorses of 2002 as I mentioned above.
That is full of predictions before he ran, reflections and explanations after he ran.
I must be the only person who has looked up anything before posting on the thread.

You say the Derby distance was too far for Hawk Wing
.... your comment "Without High Chapparal he would have won the Derby over a distance too far by 12l"
If he won the Derby by 12 lengths people would have never let us forget it.
There would have been zero talk about the distance being too far.
It would have being a Derby win by a record margin, better than the 10 lengths win by Shergar.
They would say Hawk Wing was a superstar, suited to 12 furlongs.

He was a good horse and won the six runner Lockinge by a wide margin.

As we are in the making excuses game perhaps he won well because others in that race had excuses.
Domedriver (trainer said horse was unsuited by being ridden up with the pace and was unable to be covered up)
Reel Buddy (raced alone stands' side)
Tillerman (jockey said horse would have preferred more give in the ground)
Desert Deer was withdrawn

No more to say from me.

IAMAMORON · 29-04-2020 2:04pm

Clique wrote: »

A horse that never had the chance to fulfill their potential was Fethard Lady, she was a horse that could well have dominated for a few years coming through just as one of the strongest divisions at the time started to wain with Hardy Eustace, Brave Inca, Harchibald, Macs Joy all about to start downgrading around that time.

Other notables who never kicked on were Franchoek and Dunguib. On the flat losing both Teofilo and Holy Roman Emperor was a personal blow as they had some cracking battles potentially coming up at 3yo after the great races at 2. Harbinger was another who never really got the chance at G1 level again after his King George win. That was a stunning stand alone win.

Feathard Lady was a lovely mare. Her daughter Augusta Kate was decent also.

Morgans · 29-04-2020 2:26pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

There is a six and a half page write up on Hawk Wing in racehorses of 2002 as I mentioned above.
That is full of predictions before he ran, reflections and explanations after he ran.
I must be the only person who has looked up anything before posting on the thread.

You say the Derby distance was too far for Hawk Wing
.... your comment "Without High Chapparal he would have won the Derby over a distance too far by 12l"
If he won the Derby by 12 lengths people would have never let us forget it.
There would have been zero talk about the distance being too far.
It would have being a Derby win by a record margin, better than the 10 lengths win by Shergar.
They would say Hawk Wing was a superstar, suited to 12 furlongs.

He was a good horse and won the six runner Lockinge by a wide margin.

As we are in the making excuses game perhaps he won well because others in that race had excuses.
Domedriver (trainer said horse was unsuited by being ridden up with the pace and was unable to be covered up)
Reel Buddy (raced alone stands' side)
Tillerman (jockey said horse would have preferred more give in the ground)
Desert Deer was withdrawn

No more to say from me.

I dont care if there is 200 pages in Racehorses of 2002. It doesnt mean their opinion is right, or yours.

Funny, in the lockinge, Tillerman would have preferred more give in the ground yet in your initial post it was that form of large distance wins on soft ground were unreliable. And for failing to beat Desert Deer who didnt race. Your readings aren't giving you coherent arguments.

And yes, he had enough talent to win a Derby even though it was over a distance too far. Usain Bolt would beat me in a 1500m race. Doesn't mean that he isn't best suited to 100m.

themandan6611 · 29-04-2020 8:03pm

I thought Nick Dundee never fulfilled his potential, looked a beast at Cheltenham until that crashing fall finished him, suppose jumping is the name of the game and unfortunately were he got found out

I says · 29-04-2020 9:45pm

Carvills hill if not already mentioned.
Back problems never allowed him to show his true self. The welsh national off top weight was some performance. Pity twas bit a scratch on the surface of his potential.

Pinesky · 29-04-2020 11:25pm

UrbanFret wrote: »

Dick hern trained a horse called bravefoot a few decades back. He was thought to be a superstar, then flopped. Such was they shock that there was investigations and arrests for doping. I think the truth was he just wasn't the horse they thought he was.

Was definitely doped by The Needle Man . The poor horse could hardly walk after the incident .

tryfix · 30-04-2020 7:52pm

I says wrote: »

Carvills hill if not already mentioned.
Back problems never allowed him to show his true self. The welsh national off top weight was some performance. Pity twas bit a scratch on the surface of his potential.

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

Morgans · 30-04-2020 8:05pm

tryfix wrote: »

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

He was always too big to be just a hurdler. The shame was that the ground for the 89 Gold Cup is exactly what he wanted. Hard to think that they held him up though. The Welsh National win is amazing. Never, even on his best day, was he a natural enough chaser. The best engine on any horse I've seen.

tryfix · 30-04-2020 8:31pm

Morgans wrote: »

He was always too big to be just a hurdler. The shame was that the ground for the 89 Gold Cup is exactly what he wanted. Hard to think that they held him up though. The Welsh National win is amazing. Never, even on his best day, was he a natural enough chaser. The best engine on any horse I've seen.

Ideally he should have been running in Cup races on the Flat, even then the Summer Ground would have meant that his races would be few and far between. Maybe a staying flat career in France would have seen him at his best.

Morgans · 30-04-2020 8:42pm

tryfix wrote: »

Ideally he should have been running in Cup races on the Flat, even then the Summer Ground would have meant that his races would be few and far between. Maybe a staying flat career in France would have seen him at his best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKXgAPcOuU

Redundant Pal went on to win 2 Ladbroke hurdles and was 2nd as a novice at Aintree.

Plasandrunt · 01-05-2020 12:18am

tryfix wrote: »

Very true. As a Novice he fell in his first Gold Cup attempt when he was young and sprightly enough to win it if he had stayed up. His 2nd attempt was ruined by Pitman' Golden Freeze.

If only they had put him over Hurdles instead of Fences we could have seen what that monster engine he possessed was actully capable of.

1992 was a bit before my time but after hearing and watching the race I've never understood the furore about the tactics on Golden Freeze?

It's as if Carvill's Hill was to be allowed to bounce out in front and run them all into the ground and god forbid anyone challenging him. Plus Golden Freeze fell and left Carvill's Hill in the lead, he just didn't seem to capitalize.

tryfix · 01-05-2020 2:18am

Plasandrunt wrote: »

1992 was a bit before my time but after hearing and watching the race I've never understood the furore about the tactics on Golden Freeze?

It's as if Carvill's Hill was to be allowed to bounce out in front and run them all into the ground and god forbid anyone challenging him. Plus Golden Freeze fell and left Carvill's Hill in the lead, he just didn't seem to capitalize.

It can't be proven either way. I'll just make a few points that might explain why many didn't believe Mrs Pitman's explanation of events.

Golden Freeze didn't fall, he was pulled up soon after he could no longer keep up with Carvill's Hill. No one could object to a horse making the running in a race, the objections were to the manner in which Golden Freeze ran. He wasn't there to make the running, he was there to shadow Carvill's Hill.

Pitman's Toby Tobias @15/2 was running in the same colours as Golden Freeze @150/1.

Pitman's darling son Mark was riding Toby Tobias who had a major chance based on his 2nd place finish in the previous year's Gold Cup.

Golden Freeze was an established 2m 4f horse who was 2 stone behind the principals in the race. Knowing that he was a non stayer why was he sent off to shadow front runner Carvill's Hill?

The prevailing wisdom before the race was that Carvill's Hill could only be beaten if he made jumping mistakes.

Watch the race, the interference only takes place over the first few fences. At the first fence he's just keeping close to Carvill's Hill who makes a mistake, jumping the second he is a few lengths clear of Carvills, after jumping the second he realises that he's clear of Carvill's and the rider stops riding until Carvill's Hill goes by him at which stage his rider gets busy on him and sends him back up to join Carvill's Hill.

At that stage the commentator said "Carvill's Hill goes up on the outside of Golden Freeze who's clearly trying to bustle him"

From there on until after the 12th he keeps company with Carvill's Hill, by the 13th his stablemate Toby Tobias is shadowing both him and Carvill's. That was effectively the end of Golden Freeze's race. Job done, he had bustled the favourite as effectively as he could and his fancied stablemate was now on the scene.

While he had bustled Carvill's rather than trying to knock him, the goal would have been to get Carvill's wound up so that he would start making costly mistakes.

The most irritating part of it was that Mrs Pitman always made a huge song and dance about being in the game for the welfare of horses.

Morgans · 01-05-2020 8:00am

tryfix wrote: »

It can't be proven either way. I'll just make a few points that might explain why many didn't believe Mrs Pitman's explanation of events.

Golden Freeze didn't fall, he was pulled up soon after he could no longer keep up with Carvill's Hill. No one could object to a horse making the running in a race, the objections were to the manner in which Golden Freeze ran. He wasn't there to make the running, he was there to shadow Carvill's Hill.

Pitman's Toby Tobias @15/2 was running in the same colours as Golden Freeze @150/1.

Pitman's darling son Mark was riding Toby Tobias who had a major chance based on his 2nd place finish in the previous year's Gold Cup.

Golden Freeze was an established 2m 4f horse who was 2 stone behind the principals in the race. Knowing that he was a non stayer why was he sent off to shadow front runner Carvill's Hill?

The prevailing wisdom before the race was that Carvill's Hill could only be beaten if he made jumping mistakes.

Watch the race, the interference only takes place over the first few fences. At the first fence he's just keeping close to Carvill's Hill who makes a mistake, jumping the second he is a few lengths clear of Carvills, after jumping the second he realises that he's clear of Carvill's and the rider stops riding until Carvill's Hill goes by him at which stage his rider gets busy on him and sends him back up to join Carvill's Hill.

At that stage the commentator said "Carvill's Hill goes up on the outside of Golden Freeze who's clearly trying to bustle him"

From there on until after the 12th he keeps company with Carvill's Hill, by the 13th his stablemate Toby Tobias is shadowing both him and Carvill's. That was effectively the end of Golden Freeze's race. Job done, he had bustled the favourite as effectively as he could and his fancied stablemate was now on the scene.

While he had bustled Carvill's rather than trying to knock him, the goal would have been to get Carvill's wound up so that he would start making costly mistakes.

The most irritating part of it was that Mrs Pitman always made a huge song and dance about being in the game for the welfare of horses.

Yeah, all that, the damage was done to Carvills Hill at the first fence. Never recovered and never ran again. Golden Freeze, if wanting to front run, could have done so at a few occasions, however, slowed up to jump alongside Carvills Hill to put pressure on his poor jumping. People point to pacemakers as evidence of horses not running on their merits in the race, but they are not done so to encourage a horse to fall. Michael Bowlby was apologising to Peter Scudamore on the way round. Jenny Pitman's crocodile tears and 'I'd never hurt a living animal' shtick pissed me off then, and still does.

Golden Freeze was trained in Ireland by Ted Walsh before Pitman, ran in the same McMurrow colours as Carvills Hill, fell at the fence before Carvills Hill in the 89 Gold Cup and showed up well before falling himself in the National a few years later.

Was the biggest fan of the Carvills Hill but ultimately looking back now was never a good enough jumper to be considered a true great of the game. Never could jump properly, not for Dreaper over 2m, Pipe over 4m, held up, from the front etc. His novice win at punchestown (on youtube) was an amazing handicapping performance but even then jumped like a snooker table.

Horses that never filled their potential

Comments